justmeken
202223
7103
442
Jul 10, 2018 9:54 AM
justmeken
202223
7103
442
complimentpin
Abortion is a complex moral discussion, but religion should play no role in it legally, in 1st world secular society
Daniferd
Wrd. I see the abortion case not about doing willy nilly but preventing a kid from growing up in a real bad situation. Cause its real 1/2
Daniferd
likely that they will be committing crime or continue a cycle of ppl in bad economic situation
aspoerl1
That’s what I’m saying! Absolutely! #thanoswasright
Lurkingoff
I think abortions should be mandatory. Imagine a world with no kids. Future generations would thank us.
LaytressOnTheMenjay
SVcross
KenM?
yourFriendlyNeighborhoodBushSnake
Empty set satisfies every condition with one exemption. So yes. You are right.
eastend666
This will confuse the very people you're trying to educate.
GrammarNazisKilledTheJuice
Igetthatreference.gif
noctynight
Or at least reduce it by half, go Thanos mode and say that every odd number be aborted... ok, yeah that’s too dark for me to seriously type.
giftkartoffel
Thanos did nothing wrong
BoJackHorseman
Calm down Thanos
Vercci
This is far from balanced.
BoJackHorseman
[deleted]
[deleted]
OrphanGenocide
biggwhytey
I was playing into it deadpan, you dumb fuck.
ILiveUnderARock
Oof. Relax
papablessingyourlife
Best idea yet
Partnerd
Mandatory killing. What could go wrong?
Bloxyboi
Pst... It's a thanos reference / joke.
Itwasmyname
Well, they're won't be any complaining from them, that's for sure.
DoublevBomb
"Hm...what? Oh, yeah...sounds fine. Sorry, this is a really great article."
GingerwithaSoftER
Yo who said this?
TheFatDaddy
This guy knows his stuff
masterchief11
Dilly dilly!
UsernameNeededPleaseProvide
DILLY DILLY!
CityYeti
Castro did that before
MatthewJohnsona
Japan had the right idea with their one child policy but didn't go far enough.
Blake242
That was china, and it only applied to certain areas
mbcoalson
Japan?
bilborrax
Miniature American flags for others
rrlyrae
and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!
bilborrax
...quiet you!
IMABLACKSTAR
Hey Ken, long time no see
allibaster12
Whatsup China
popejubal
I know for sure we won't get complaints from future generations, at least.
newsguycraigevans
Calm down there, St. Augustine
StealthyNinja7
tbkelley1498
thus far 11 people did not get the joke
Danicksta9
41 by my count
FuriousMankins
33 now.
Nolly2k
and now 58
MarkWatneysVicodinPotato
This isn't YouTube, no need to count downvotes.
DonCollectoria
54
marsgoose
Can we very late term abort you?
Misfire5150
138th trimester abortions? Where do I vote that shit in?!
Lurkingoff
vrrivera1989
Ever watch children of men?
Lurkingoff
Is that the one where men shoot babies out their dickholes?
vrrivera1989
Lol
Plazooeeoot
Good movie.
IamJustinSane
I’m pro life, my life. Having kids would make my life miserable. I wouldn’t do that to myself. I deserve better.
DetectiveSloth
"We care about babies!" Okay these have been separated from their parents by the government. "NOT THOSE ONES!"
Rocktrash
I’m pro choice because I don’t own a uterus and therefore can’t, in good conscience, tell someone what to do with theirs.
Megasuperfreshdonut
THANK YOU
CloudberryMoose
Vhyson
IwishIwereKeithDavid
It's a fetus until it's born, then it's a child.
wonderbug
here's a crazy idea... how about we only have kids that are wanted, with sensible access to abortion & contraceptives?
Moshugaani
People are too horny for that I'm afraid, and the culture is encouraging people to have as much sex as they crave.
wonderbug
well that's why we have sensible sex education and contraceptives, and a sane abortion policy
Moshugaani
The availability of free contraceptives could be better. I think that would be a good way to cut down on the need for abortions!
wonderbug
any sane person imho would rather abortions didn't happen, but the reality of life is they do, legal or not, so lets make them safely rare.
DanielWhiffin
It's never about the children, it's about punishing women for having sex. Enforced childbirth would force women to stop premarital sex.
OobedoobScoobyDoobyBenubi
I think if you are against abortion so bad, you should have to adopt a kid from an unwanted pregnancy in order to vote against it
Plazooeeoot
Create your own against abortion army then ? Good idea.
yowen2000
Two birds stoned at once: help more kids in need today, that ARE alive. It'll give others the confidence not to terminate a pregnancy.
htommoore1
I wish I could upvote this more
MrMarlin
Gorgoror
happytreeleaf
Upvoting because I’m damned if this isn’t sarcasm.
CotterPyke
The male birth control pill. it's coming. The problem is that the guys that use it will be, largely, exactly the type of man that should2/
WAAA89
That goes both ways though.
PunnyTiger
the pill for either gender is for comitted relationships or emergency backup. it does nothing vs sti/stds. always use a barrier method
laiskamato
Or maybe have sex only with the people who matter and masturbate only with your own body?
PunnyTiger
awwww, your twisted and closed minded views on sexuality are cute.
laiskamato
Well, that escalated quickly.
magiamiles
Ah good, as a male I hate getting pregnant
Adderkop
It exists. It just still have serious side effects. But the higher you focus on education and your job the less likely for you to have kids
l009
I'd rather wear a condom. Just society needs to stop making jokes about them and more might carry them.
baegohpah
It already exists. Phara companies don't want it bc more money with condoms and birth control for women.
FuckMeThenYou
no it doesn't. And not even close to reality there
DonnieDangles87
I can care about someone not getting murdered without giving a shit whether they are fed, clothed, employed, or housed.
iregretthiscomment
I think we should use sterilization instead of/ along with jail time. Think of how many less delinquents there would be
iregretthiscomment
To reiterate: I’m talking about rapists, murderers, other felons. Not just petty thieves or drug users (IMO drug use isn’t a crime)
MoonFaceinc
Wow, what a novel idea that no one has ever thought before. I can only imagine excellent outcomes from such a policy!
iregretthiscomment
Has it been used before?
iregretthiscomment
Obviously, another big issue is our judicial system is fucked... so many people would get sterilized for something they didn’t do...
princesskageebageeba
True, guys I've slept with couldn't even be trusted to remember a condom.
Traja01
They didn't forget the condom, they left it on purpose. Because condoms are awful for everything except protecting against STDs.
princesskageebageeba
Either way, the guys I sleep with are wearing one.
Traja01
Which is the correct call.
roberto35121
"Hey babe what's my name?" *taking off pants*"Jerry, you can't remember shit."
princesskageebageeba
A misbuttoned shirt, maybe shoes on the wrong feet, love me some of that.
roberto35121
"Damn, I can't reach your Gspot!" "Bae you're in my ass"
ButterLube
That's because its a condom deerrrr
PiffTheMagicDildo
... and you still slept with them?
princesskageebageeba
The stupid ones are pretty easy to instruct into what I want, so I just supplied them.
BabySharkEtc
PiffTheMagicDildo
Lmao this is hilarious... care to elaborate
princesskageebageeba
Dumb guys are kind of like puppies, they're enthusiastic, easy to teach, and eager to please.
MagicxFrog007x
If he ain’t got a condom don’t let him smash, he will go out and buy some of it comes to it
purplechemist
Yup. STIs aren't worth it. Especially now we have superbug STIs that are resistant to antibiotics...
VizenFatale
Hubby wore a condom a year into our relationship. He eventually stopped when we realized if I got pregnant it wasn't a huge deal cause we
VizenFatale
Are in it for the long haul, and eventually decided we wanted kids soonrer or later.
VizenFatale
And now we have two.
oddoregano
It happened, the side effects curbed the release. *they were the same side effects women have* So they are reformulating.
zoesboyfriend
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/male-birth-control-study/ it was never planned for release, as it was an early trial
zoesboyfriend
I should correct myself, I meant even if the trial was completed, that would not have meant a release just yet
oddoregano
Semantics. There was a trial. The side effects prevented it from being released. Different way of saying the same thing.
FuckMeThenYou
It happened in that it caused permanent sterility in quite a lot of the cases... And the reason birth control to women is approved is 1)
FuckMeThenYou
2) though there are side effects the desired effects happens in the person taking the drug. The bare for male birth should understandably1)
FuckMeThenYou
3)be lower since you are expecting them to take a drug in order to "benefit" another person
nicouk
The side effects for men were A LOT worse than for women. I.E. A major decrease in testosterone, sex drive (ironic), andincreased depression
LookMaNoCleverUsername
Are you a woman? Have you taken the pill?
RedUmbrella
EXACTLY! Every one of these is a side effect of the pill. Many people don't realize that testosterone balance is important for women too!
JackingitinSanDiego
Soooo the side effects for women
nicouk
You think a significant decrease in testosterone: A) Happens on female birth control, and B) Is as debilitating to women as it is to men.
RedUmbrella
*they were the same side effects women have*
nicouk
You think a significant decrease in testosterone: A) Happens on female birth control, and B) Is as debilitating to women as it is to men?
RedUmbrella
A) Yes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24082040
RedUmbrella
B) Testosterone is important for women: bone density, fat distribution, sexual desire and arousal, energy, and mood
Elminst
Because we can't inconvenience the men, of course.
Ravenkorpse
It'd be nice if one of the side effects was a bigger dick. I mean girls get boobs.
meladanielle
This pisses me off so much. I’ve tried to talk to my husband about it and he gets all weirded out. God forbid men experience side effects
nicouk
The side effects for men were A LOT worse than for women. I.E. A major decrease in testosterone, sex drive (ironic), andincreased depression
meladanielle
How is that a lot worse?! Not trying to argue but shit, the side effects for women are literally the same (disregarding testosterone).
KingdomOfDimensions
Some men in the test had long-term fertility issues. If you think that's just an "inconvenience" you're a shit person
Elminst
A poss side effects of one BC pill is blood clots. which could literally kill you. that seems more inconvenient than no kids.
FuckMeThenYou
Even if it was really the case there would be nothing unusual about it. To get a drug approved the side effects are weight against the 1)
FuckMeThenYou
2) effect of the drug. In this case the drug user has all the side effects while the wished effect is achieved by another person.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
So you're telling me the men who will take this pill have no desire for pregnancy-free sex?
nicouk
The side effects for men were A LOT worse than for women. I.E. A major decrease in testosterone, sex drive (ironic), andincreased depression
extremisttt
Lmao all my bc did that to me and I soldiered on.
giftkartoffel
BC pills can decrease sex drive, though it only happens about 15% of the time. However, they are linked to an increased risk of depression.
giftkartoffel
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/can-hormonal-birth-control-trigger-depression-2016101710514
NushaR
And increase the risk of migraines (real ones not just bad headaches), blood clots, not just depression but all mood disorders....
CotterPyke
pass on their genes - the morons will keep making idiocracy
swedishpancakeswithlingonberries
As long as we have electrolytes we will be fine.
ensensu
Uh, how about focusing on the people already out of the womb?
oddoregano
You're missing the point here. Stupid people are having kids, smart people are not. Stupidity breeds stupidity. We're left with Idiocracy
ThisFireGrowsHigher
Forced reversible sterilization. Has my vote.
socratesboytoy
Its not about genes. Its about spending the time after birth mimicing idiocracy
Thisusernameisalreadyinusefuckyou
Probably but at least it will be no kid if mine's problem.
Flyms
Why should anone take a male birth control pill? It has tons of side effects and there is already a rly simple solution.
hauntednursery
Women's birth control has tons of horrid side effects but I don't hear you whining about that...
Flyms
Because thats not what the topic is right now.
ImLukeSkywalkerImHereToRescueYou
Anal?
fusROdamn4
And what solution is that? Don't have sex?
Flyms
Condom...
darkdragonempress
Using multiple forms of birth control is best.
pookieeatworld
Condoms.
swilli1005
My biology teacher used to say exactly this. That dumb people are having more kids than smart people and the world is becoming dumb
fathogwrestler
Why is your biology teacher important to this opinion?
PenicilliumCamemberti
He knows the sex. Maybe he is even doing it.
ElynaerDeiros
Yeeeep
CotterPyke
so, was that his review of "Idiocracy" or what
CategorizedPull
The same could be said for women and the pill
SadHedgehog
Yeah, basically.
NYRNNR
Birth control for women is much different as it has a significant impact on our cycles. It can calm cramps and make it more predictable 1/2
godskook
The small sample size of women I know personally who've been on Birth Control, it's been 2 for 2 in making them more mentally...unstable.
SaraSlaughter
Yep this is truth. All hormonal BC is gonna mess with our Crazy-Factor to some degree. Mine makes me nuts but worth it to not be pregs ????
godskook
And that's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of those two women.
NYRNNR
Most women that I know on birth control are not particularly sexually active but need it to be functional humans during their periods 2/2
wiggledizzle
.
011100000110100101100101
Can confirm, friend has endometriosis.
Ballsackhands
I have severe hormonal imbalances from taking it 8 years ago and never recovered. Also caused severe depression and anxiety I still get
Iwanttofingeryou
Fall under 90iq? Free birth control
[deleted]
[deleted]
Iwanttofingeryou
Better idea, set a legal maximum profit for birth control at +25% of cost. I live in michigan and if the laws about car insurance covering
ElynaerDeiros
By way of neutering
EveryoneWhoDisagreesWithMeIsLiterallyHitler
I like the idea behind it, but IQ isn't a great measure of intelligence. My IQ is something like 130 and I'm a dumb piece of shit.
Iwanttofingeryou
145, same. So you're probably right. How fast you can solve a puzzle shouldnt be the deciding factor...
Fawksy
IQ is the single highest factor for success in life. It's also literally a measure of intelligence. Having high IQ does not make you 1/?
HoosierDaddy42069
143 here. I consider myself a very smart person who occassionally makes very dumb choices.
FourtytwosQuestion
Careful, not everyone is able to see the truth in this statement and might get mad over it, even if it is absolutely true.
TheHellbilly
So?
Beelsebooob
We don't miss that point - we assert that it's factually false. There is not sufficient neurological development at the early stage 1/
Beelsebooob
where abortion is allowed to consider this murder. If this is murder, then so is picking a flower. 2/2
accountabyss
The claim is that "many" pro-life people don't care about a child after birth. How is it supported? It's not.
accountabyss
Furthermore, in order for it to contain truth, only a limited number of credible examples is necessary. It's a low-key hasty generalization.
[deleted]
[deleted]
FourtytwosQuestion
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/truth have fun reading. you'r welcome.
[deleted]
[deleted]
FourtytwosQuestion
I linked you to merriam webster, and you are still not able to search the words you don't know the meaning of? Sorry, but you are hopeless.
themightymellophone
Well it's usually the arguers burden to define the terms of the argument they're making
LaytressOnTheMenjay
no u
KartFnocker
justmeken
So True
BigTittyGothKitty
I lean on the Right and I've seen this be completely true for those who are Far Right. Its disgustingly hypocritical.
snarflex
I haven't seen it to be true at all for people who are active in the pro-life movement, though. There are all types.
MericanNightmare
But all those types are still voting for those policies when they vote red.
bilborrax
Pro life policies ensure that there will always be a cheap source of labor available
accountabyss
What absolute, cynical lies you people delude yourselves into, removing humanity from political opposition in order to support your own.
MalthusAndreusDrake
all time best comic !
TheTimba
yes, there is only black and white. always. well done.
mity0k23
Presuck my genital situation :)
No1v1
The circle jerk continues!!!
LucasTheArchaneer
I'm s moderate leaning conservative and while I dont want to get rid of those programs I feel they may need stricter guidelines to 1/2
LucasTheArchaneer
Prevent abuse 2/2
KingZaphodI
That is the most wrong and stupid generalization in the history of generalizations.
DonnieDangles87
I can care about someone not getting murdered without giving a shit whether they are fed, clothed, employed, or housed.
snarflex
Which is, of course, absolutely false considering that the majority of the pro-life movement is women. "Women don't care about women"?
KartFnocker
It doesn't say anything about caring, unless we define caring as supporting those programs. And if that's the definition, they largely don't
BolenArrow
Sure but if you were to ask most people "Hey knowing the struggle your family went through would you still want to have been born" you're >>
BolenArrow
going to say yes... Like I know we like to make these massively complicated issues so simple but you can't even remotely talk about>
BolenArrow
the complexity of this shit outside of an entire book worth of reasons and intricacies. So tired of imgur trying to debate insanely complex>
BolenArrow
issues in a comment section... Me included because I can't help but get pulled into this shit.
KartFnocker
IamMelonLordeYaYaYa
I disagree. If my parent’s lives were ruined, or I grew up in foster care, I would easily give up existence to change that. The point (1)
IamMelonLordeYaYaYa
is supporting families to help eliminate the need for abortions. Sex Ed, birth control, healthcare. These are things many right-wingers(1)
IamMelonLordeYaYaYa
either want to defund or outright oppose them. Ideally, a suffering single mother doesn’t need to choose between killing her future child(3)
Ballsackhands
Fuck no. My parents had every right to abort me. Why would I care? I didn't ask to be born. Technically, being born was without my consent.
JamieSmyth
actually no. My mum seriously considered aborting me but was shamed into not doing it. Her life fucking sucked for many years. I'm suicidal
JamieSmyth
but I fight back against those dark thoughts, otherwise my mum's suffering would have meant nothing.
bigusdigus
Progressives just don't want to give up their eugenics project. Remember folks, Blacks would have overtaken long ago without abortion quotas
KartFnocker
weak troll
DarkSock
Obvious Troll is obvious
aquapollo
Idk if I'm pro-choice or not I'd really rather people didn't have abortions but I donate money and time to clinics that help poor mother's
DarkwingDuc
1) You can be pro-choice & not like abortions. I'm there with you. But if you're really pro-life, you don't ban abortions. Prohibition never
DarkwingDuc
2) works. Look at the failed war on drugs. If you want less abortions educate people & give them access to birth control. Give women access
DarkwingDuc
3) healthcare, affordable child care, and protect their careers. There's a reason why countries like Switzerland have the lowest abortion
DarkwingDuc
4) rates in the world, even though abortions are unrestricted, and other countries like many in South America have high abortion rates even
aquapollo
So we arent all hypocrites that don't care about people
IamMelonLordeYaYaYa
No one said you were. Most people would prefer abortions not happen; some just don’t believe the choice should be made by the govt
ArdentSlacker
Mate. You're not the problem. You're not even close to the problem. The problem will murder an abortion doctor. Yanno, extremely late-term.
JamieSmyth
People who are pro-choice aren't all YAY ABORTIONS either. But it's important to have the option. You is good people. We need more of you.
snarflex
I've always found that to be a specious argument. It's too close to "I'm personally against child abuse but ppl should have that option."
SaraSlaughter
Not even the same. We’re talking about something to do with ONE person’s own body... not what they can or can’t do to another person.
snarflex
Or insert any other issue there. "I'm personally against the death penalty, buuuut..."
PhilMcrevice
To be fair, the Republican and pro-life mantra is "Live and let live" not "Live and let's give "...
Blahblahhh
Oh please. Live and let live? Do you know what your party stands for?
DarkSock
“I gots mine; fuck you” - Republican Jeebus
DuckPlanetKing
More like “Live and also try to control how those different from you want to live.”
magicrhombus
Where's the "let live" in being anti-gay marriage, or drug prohibition, or abstinence-only sex education? They get off on controlling (1)
PhilMcrevice
I agree, as a Libertarian, the (r) and (d) are Hippocrates. Repubs should be ok with sexual orientation and drug use , not controlling it...
magicrhombus
... how other people get to live their lives. That's about as far from "let live" as you can fucking get. (2)
imoutofnames
Live and let live* *as long as you live exactly how I want you to.
SarcasticComment
but the gays getting married makes mine less special...
KellyanneAlternativeFacts
I have so many conservative extended family members blaming "the gays" for ruining marriage... Not noticing their own multiple divorces...
BoooBerry
I like Carlin, but this is straight up bullshit. The understanding is that the State shouldn't parent children. Ppl need to be responsible
PangolinBan
You mean responsible as in, abort the child they conceived of by accident if they can’t provide for it? That kind of responsible?
BoooBerry
Ever notice it's poor people having all the babeh's? Look at the birth date in the inner city compared to the burbs. Why is that?
OneInfiniteLoop
An accident? What she tripped she fell and landed on his dick?
OneInfiniteLoop
None of you recognize an Eminem lyric?
JamieSmyth
Accident as in contraception isn't 100‰ effective and even if you do everything correct you could still end up pregnant. Or rape victims.
Ballsackhands
Sexist pig.
OneInfiniteLoop
Please explain
CrazyWithTheCheeseWiz
How about accident as in God got me pregnant, it's happened befor surely it can happen again.
CrazyWithTheCheeseWiz
Also abstinence is taught to a lot of children and not hey put a condom on your dick, or go to the clinic and get some BC pills
hurleyman77
This is an unfair caricature of the worst parts of our position. 20 years with 4 orgs and I can confirm, we don't like those people either.
hurleyman77
I'm glad everyone is being civil in this thread, but I have to actually work ;-) There are lots of resources if you're truly curious. 1/2
hurleyman77
My position is nuanced, just like yours. My position is well thought, just like yours. Genuinely understanding your opponents is hard work.
hurleyman77
I'm with an org now that is ONLY focused on the "post-birth" part of this issue. Free: training, food, diapers, strollers, car seats, etc.
xmaneds
thanks for your service
hurleyman77
There are shitheads in every cause. They don't define the LGBTQ cause, or feminist cause, or human rights cause, or the pro-life cause.
KartFnocker
Nice to hear (seriously). Cheers
thanatos777
Anti-abortion means that you believe that women deserve less bodily autonomy than corpses. That is--by definition--shitheaded.
hurleyman77
Proper Pro-Lifers merely advocate that unborn living humans deserve the same basic human rights as born living humans.
hurleyman77
I also agree that preventing a woman from determining what happens to/with her own body is the same as "less autonomy than a corpse."
hurleyman77
Do you agree that no living human has the right to end the life of any other living human (black, gay, female, etc), just cuz they want to?
hurleyman77
I agree that granting a woman less bodily autonomy than a corpse is shitheaded, but that's a strawman. That's not what we advocate.
ScottishPower
Abortion is a woman's decision. A baby should not be forced into this world if it won't be looked after properly. Why is that hard to grasp?
scoundr3l
Well for starters, because that's not the argument. You can't kill a 1 year old because it won't be looked after properly, so care is moot.
ScottishPower
I disagree. The choice is before birth. Before life. Before knowledge of what it id to be alive. Termination before that is not life
scoundr3l
By that, erm, "logic" you could abort a baby minutes before it crests. Thankfully, the law disagrees because that's fuckin dumb.
ScottishPower
You must know what i mean
scoundr3l
I hope so. But if life begins sometime before birth, you must grasp why it's more complicated than just being a woman's choice.
Plazooeeoot
Well trying to abort after 1y is too late anyway.
scoundr3l
That was my point, wasn't it? Age, not level of care, is the only thing that should determine if you're able to terminate.
Plazooeeoot
Age ? The child have one as soon as he's born. I mean that's pretty obvious that's you can't celebrate sex in McDonald's unless your 15yo :D
scoundr3l
... wut? King's English
luvas
That's my entire take on it. A capitalist country like America is not the right place for a destitute, unwanted child.
CovfefeTheBloodless
I'm pro life and I believe that the best way to prevent abortions is a) free birth control and sex education and b) make it so that having
MindRape
I'm pro abortion as long as you can legally abort between the ages of 0 through 99 years old.
Iinajoki360
Jeez can you imagine the stress a 100-year-old body would go through if they were forced to give birth? You monster
ohlookmemes
I could never tell a sexual abuse victim they must carry the child for 9 months, give birth to it, & decide the future of child & mother.
CovfefeTheBloodless
I couldn't either, which is why I wouldn't in that circumstance.
tloincb
Problem is a lot of religions don’t allow abortions. Some even birth control. Ironically..a lot of poverty and starvation in Those places
NightPainPoe
Best way to avoid unwanted pregnancy is to inform kids at a young age with all of the facts and not scare tactics.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Manuul817
Nah.
HannahHero
Read the whole comment
CovfefeTheBloodless
Do you see me even making a list? I don't think you actually read my comments. At the end I said that sometimes abortion is the best option.
DoublevBomb
Those are generally great ideas, which mean they have no place in the general pro-life concept, which is about the image at the top.
yowen2000
Let's not talk about it in black in white terms, let's talk about it in terms of creating a world in which abortion isn't necessary.
StayShady12
That’s a black and white comment
yowen2000
how so?
StayShady12
Because the world is too grey for it to never be necessary
yowen2000
I never said "never necessary", I said "world in which it isn't necessary", doesn't mean it won't happen. I'm not that naive.
snarflex
The problem is, a lot of birth control is abortive anyway (prevents implantation), so you're on the same slippery slope there.
jaimerbritt127001
It's
jaimerbritt127001
Sorry, that's not abortive, by definition, that's preventative.
SirsMadeline
But are you really PL? or just personally PL? If you would never chose to abort, but would never others what to do you're really pro-choice.
snarflex
That's a specious argument. Is there any other argument for which "I'm against ___ but anyone else can do it" holds up? Death penalty? 1/2
1DameMaggieSmith
I think it’s more “I wouldn’t, but you can”, the same way liberal straight ppl feel about gay marriage
gozirra
They don't have to pay. Just don't make it illegal. It does want have to be a federally funded operation
snarflex
2/2 Child abuse? Pedophilia?
DukeOfChutney608
honest question. what makes you want to force ppl to have children they dont want and cant care for? why ?
CovfefeTheBloodless
I don't. I just believe that it's a human life so it's not good to get rid of it, however, the way to prevent that is to prevent the (1)
DukeOfChutney608
right but say someone is raped, or makes a mistake and forgets BC pills or something. no one hasthe right to force them to carry that child
CovfefeTheBloodless
Pregnancy in the first place, or make it so that parents can get better help caring for their kids. Please actually read my comments.
TheMightyCovfefe
You are a wise Covfefe.
silentwalke
Hey, If your gonna be pro life that's the way to do it. Thank you for understanding science.
geosynthetic
I believe abortion should be retroactive until the age of 18.
darkdragonempress
There was an interesting book series on that. People were still garbage.
geosynthetic
Soylent Green?
darkdragonempress
Unwind. Soylent green was the poor. Unwind was specifically about killing kids. Weirdly enough that was the compromise between pro life 1
darkdragonempress
And pro choice people. Instead of abortion kill kids. Great story. Only time I hated an abuse victim. 2
MichaelAndersen88
Birth control is cheap and subsidizing a behavior increases that behavior. Government aid to single and teen parents leads to more 1/2
MichaelAndersen88
Single and teen parents. 2/2
TheDrunkenWrench
Many women use BC to control periods. Someone close to me has been on BC since 12 since she would hemorrhage otherwise.
christinthefoothills
Bzzzzz. Wrong. Opinions are nice, but facts are better.
JOAP
Sex education and socioeconomic support so they can see a future is what we're talking about.
Carrera26
You are going to want to check your numbers there. A vast majority of independent and scientific research on this directly contradicts.
silentwalke
bIRth CinTROl iS chEaP and SUbsiDIzing a BeHAvioR INcreaSes tHAT BehavIor.
winkyroomba
Just cut off your dick already.
owen556
I think in the 2010s decade the cost of raising a child until it’s 18 is several hundred thousand dollars, too many will never afford kids
residentolive
Too bad that most pro-lifers are against birth control and even rudimentary sex education
CAntthenuclearapocalypsecomesoicanjustdiealready
Yeah unfortunately most pro lifers are significantly more authoritarian than you
Nuhlinga
I’m pro life too in the fact that I think the mother should be able to choose her life
keybladers
Unpopular opinion: besides cases of rape. When she opened those legs she made a choice
Nuhlinga
I don’t understand how people can’t realize that sex isn’t done for the sole purpose of procreation. Pregnancy wasn’t the intention.
keybladers
Doesn’t matter if it’s the purpose or not. A decision was made. And no contraception is 100% so be an adult and accept consequences
ghinker
But sex is the only way to get pregnant and is not the only way to get off. choices
Nuhlinga
Being in a car is the only way to have a car accident. Even if you are safe and take precautions. There are other modes of transportation.
OverthoughtUnderedited
You're pro choice. It's not a bad thing. Your argument reduces the pro life/pro choice binary to contradiction.
OverthoughtUnderedited
Nobody celebrates abortion or takes it lightly, everyone would prefer other outcomes. But pro choice means protecting the option.
snarflex
Umm https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/7/9/17550056/michelle-wolf-salute-to-abortion-the-break-supreme-court
snarflex
"Safe, legal, and rare" was dropped from the DNC's platform years ago. Now you're supposed to believe abortion is pure good.
otiumCatulli
Fair, but there's little difference between an early stage abortion and the morning-after pill (the pill you take in an emergency).
itmeanspeaceamongworlds
There's a massive difference. The morning after pill prevents pregnancy, it doesn't end it. It's not an abortion pill.
otiumCatulli
What if you had sex, your egg was fertilised, but two days later you got the morning after pill. There, you've ended a life. Technically.
itmeanspeaceamongworlds
That is not at all how the morning after pill works. It works by delaying ovulation. So no, no fertilisation and no "life" ended
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
ninjakitten
The miscarriage of legitimately 2 cells. The vast majority of pro-lifers have an issue aborting a fetus, not a zygote
[deleted]
[deleted]
itmeanspeaceamongworlds
That's simply not true. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/emergency-contraception/#how-the-emergency-pill-works
CovfefeTheBloodless
Kids isn't scary, by giving more support to parents, especially poor, young ones. That being said, obviously there are situations in which
Hercules99
Having a kid IS scary.
Gluseph
If it isn't scary to you then you probably aren't taking parenting seriously enough
CovfefeTheBloodless
Abortion will still be the best option, so should be legal. We're not all heartless hypocrites.
overworkeddad
Pro-life is about making abortion illegal.A lot of pro-choicers don't like abortion but don't want to take the option away from others
NEEDZMOAR
youre basically listing every reason as to why Id call myself pro choice.
TakeMeToFrontPageAndBackFiveTimesADay
Yeah, that’s pro choice. Wanting people to have their child if they can, but in horrendous circumstances giving them the option of abortion
ohlookmemes
so... everyone's parents are pro-choice. Got it!
TakeMeToFrontPageAndBackFiveTimesADay
They might be pro life, and completely disagree with abortion even in extenuating circumstances
KellyanneAlternativeFacts
^this guy/girl gets it. Although among many pro-life communities, they'd still call you pro-choice. (You sound a lot like me, and I (1/2)
KellyanneAlternativeFacts
Came from a conservative Catholic community. Eventually I accepted I'm not "open-minded-pro-life", I'm just "pro-choice") (2/2)
gozirra
You are actually pro choice. You believe abortion should be legal, you just wouldn't do it. I wouldn't get a tattoo, but fine it's legal.
LaytressOnTheMenjay
You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means.
HonestCommentFarmer
ElectricSpacePotatoes
Can you convince the rest of the "pro-life"?
zebrains
Problem is that the vocal pro-lifers tend to be extremists and not open minded like yourself.
ath1337e
You are pro-choice then. In your case, you would choose to not get an abortion.
SecondSince
I think that's just pro-common-sense.
FancyFrance
I don’t think you understand what pro-life means.
newsguycraigevans
I'm glad to see we are both Pro Women's Healthcare.
cyrusjoneslivedforever
So you're prochoice but personally don't believe in abortion. Most prochoice people are you.
ShinyAlienPrincess
It should be legal if the woman doesn't want to stay pregnant, no matter her reasons.
YeAlbinoRhino
You’re a god damn unicorn, one in a million
bigusdigus
Abortions do more harm to the mother, both physical and psychological. With proper education and social support, abortions aren't needed.
JamieSmyth
What about women who die during childbirth?
bigusdigus
Lots of different situations, I had a friend who's wife was going that direction, they delivered the child at 25 weeks, and is healthy today
hardytardigrade
Abortions do more harm than birth and raising an unwanted child? It's hard to believe that's the best you came up with out of total fantasy.
Thesmithlord
Not necessarily true. What about rape cases or cases of extreme injury where the child can not be saved?
destess
People always bring that up. We get it. Everyone's seen it by now. Everyone's opinion regarding that has already been solidified.
Wr200m
In the majority of abortions all it is is taking a simple pill. I do not think they compare in the slightest..
sodpounder
Even wanted pregnancies can need to be terminated. Usually miscarriage carries a greater physical risk to a woman’s health than an abortion.
bigusdigus
I'm referring more to the psychological damage to women. I've known plenty who suffer sever depression when they try to have a child and
SwedishPunkAndBeer
Are you serious? Abortion more harmful than giving birth? That's just not true.
itsatriplebaby
What the actual fuck of a world do you live in? Cuz if ain’t where the rest of us lives.
FrostyCatQueen
What about the woman who gave birth to a baby that needs bleach baths everyday for a skin condition? & is on a morphine drip because of it?
FrostyCatQueen
She claims it's a miracle. I think it's barbaric. A child like that is in constant pain and has no quality of life.
Magillaguerilla22
So you personally don't believe in it but others should have the option? That is honestly the first rational statement I heard from pro life
InoffensivePablum
That is called pro-choice.
PiggyWobbles
thats because his position is decidedly pro choice... You can personally oppose whatever you want, its about laws
Thetwitchy1
To everyone calling you pro-choice; this isn't about choice, it's about preventing unnecessary death. Being antiabortion doesn't do that.1
Thetwitchy1
2/ for a prolifer being anti-abortion is like treating a burn on a victim that's on fire. it's not helpful.
Thetwitchy1
3/ I should state, for the record, I'm pro-choice, but I get it.
sirhebington1
Congrats. You are pro choice.
Jakle
They said in certain situations, maybe they only agree when mother is in danger. They are not necessarily pro-choice.
TakeMeToFrontPageAndBackFiveTimesADay
Pro life is you think it should be illegal, pro choice is sometimes or all the time allowing abortion
elyk26
If you believe abortion should be legal in certain situations you are pro choice. Pro choice advocates aren’t pro abortion, most don’t want
DrewBerg
Everything you just said is pro-choice. You're pro-choice. If you told a die hard pro-lifer what you just said they'd call you a murderer.
ThisGuyHere
"I don't think you should be able to get an abortion bc you want to, but it should still be legal to do so under special circumstances."
FourtytwosQuestion
"... they'd call you a murderer." And that's the point. It's not murder, even if they think it is. But what to do with uneducated people?
notbearrypunny
Peter Singer would suggest otherwise
PuzzleheadedTowel
Ignore them and don't let them dictate your laws.
PiggyWobbles
In the US? elect them so they can force their religious convictions upon others
LaytressOnTheMenjay
Well they believe it’s the intentional killing of an innocent human being for (in 99%+ of cases) convenience.
Macish
I agree. We have a 24 week limit for a reason - at 25 weeks a fetus shows enough consistent EEG activity to be technically not dead. BUT /1
CovfefeTheBloodless
No, they wouldn't, because as I said, you just have a very set, stereotypical view of someone who is pro life.
mikewyman
Consider what you think the stereotypical pro-choice view point is. Do you think people make the choice easily?
Starcatcher1986
The terms Pro-Life and Pro-Choice aren't about what you think people ought to do. It's about what you think the LAWS should be.
InoffensivePablum
If you think abortion should be legal, you are pro-choice. You may not like abortion, but everyone has a choice. That is choice.
DrewBerg
You're pro-choice my dude.
itsatriplebaby
“Abortion should be legal”. Mate, that makes you pro choice.
ohlookmemes
That's like saying every Democrat who voted in the last election is now Republican because Trump was elected https://imgur.com/4AVtZWk
Stinkyshark
You're not wrong, but I think people look for the "hard line" on these issues, they try to make rational moderate thought seem evil.
chewybrian
These days, I think they are expecting a hard line on everything. Few things are so simple that it makes sense to pick a 'side', though.
MokiYoki
I think the problem is that we make it a pro-choice vs pro-life thing. What we all want is some sort of grey and we need to agree on it.
TakeMeToFrontPageAndBackFiveTimesADay
Pro choice is just the option of being able to, pro life is taking away the choice. If you want abortion to be illegal, that’s pro life 1/2
TheTimba
Is this the first pro-lifer you've ever actually taken the time to listen to all the way through?
AceOverlord
Yeah who should have to listen to what others say right? Especially when they don't agree with you. We should all just assume we are right
dustybucket
They said in "specific situations" meaning they think not anyone can go get one, unless one of those criteria are met. Still pro-life.
TakeMeToFrontPageAndBackFiveTimesADay
Nope that’s choice. Giving people choice in certain situations is still pro choice.
ohlookmemes
@CovfefeTheBloodless is anti-abortion & accepts reasons for legalized abortion. Not every pregnancy is from consensual sex #metoo
SnarkySophia
Most people who are pro life agree that medically necessary abortions are tragic but sometimes the best option for all parties involved.
Carefuler
Agreed, but that should be the decision of team of medical professions advocating on the behalf of the child, not just the mother's decision
Honorius77
That’s not strictly pro-choice. You can be pro-life and willing to accept reasonable exceptions to the idea.
Carefuler
If the decision is the mother's alone, you're pro-choice.
MistressLyda
It is possible to believe that one should have a choice, while still seeing one of the choices as sad.
Carefuler
Yes. It's called pro-choice.
itsatriplebaby
Nobody is celebrating abortion as a fun thing. If one is raped and pregnant, they should be able to abort. If it causes major harm to the mo
Beezlebubble
For himself, he's pro-life, but the broad spectrum, pro-choice.
luciferian669
It's subjective given the circumstances
DorMin2
Yes, that's the choice part. It's not called pro-abortion.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
That's still pro-choice. If you think each person gets to choose, even if your choice would be not to abort, then it's pro-choice. /1
Carefuler
Unless he feels the right to abortion isn't a personal one, Yes, that makes him pro-choice.
ratfaceddog
“Choice” includes both, by definition.
Beezlebubble
Well I made this much worse looking at the comments attached
Jakle
They said in certain situations, maybe they only agree when mother is in danger. They are not necessarily pro-choice.
SickSickIndividual
That’s my understanding too
llamalibrarian
If you're for ppl having options in those situations, choices if you will, you're pro-choice
Carefuler
If it's just the mother making the decision, it's pro-choice.
BigglesMcSqueez
You can be pro-life and be objectively informed about the situation, and not advocate ignorance. Killing sucks, sometimes it's unavoidable.
Carefuler
It's never unavoidable. Just you can't kill anyone.
clucja1
But that makes you pro-choice. Because you believe that at least in some cases there should be a choice.
fester9
An abortion is a medical procedure. No one but you and your doctor should have any say whatsoever in how/what procedures you have. Period.
DonnieDangles87
Fine, then your mom can decide to kill you when you're a 14 year old asshole with no consequence.
QuazMasta
I'm curious, does that mean you support assisted suicide? And would you think mandatory counseling appropriate prior to allowing it?
pfsar
When a pet is very sick we talk about putting it down because it’s the “humane” thing to do. Perhaps we should think be humane to humans.
fester9
I do support assisted suicide for terminal cases yes. I think counseling should be available.
QuazMasta
If only terminal, then I would vote only for high risk pregnancies, if you can allow me to believe that a conceived child counts as a life
QuazMasta
Note this is following a line of "I chose to have sex but don't want this resultant baby". Rape pregnancy is a different line.
fester9
So can i surgically graft myself onto you against your will for nine months? I just need to use your organs to keep me alive for that 1/
MrsSoftcoreSteve
I’m 6 weeks pregnant rn, and I have to say I’ve never supported abortion more. Shits terrible and no one should be forced to live through it
DonnieDangles87
Then don't have sex you fucking idiot.
MrsSoftcoreSteve
I mean, it took my husband and I 10 months of trying to get pregnant. We’re over the moon. At least one of us is getting laid, right?
Plazooeeoot
Specially if they're definitely not ready for it.
MrsSoftcoreSteve
Or just don’t want it. I want a baby and I am so miserable rn. I can’t imagine feeling this & having no love in my heart for this parasite.
MrsSoftcoreSteve
I would like to add that it’s going to cost me $9750 in health insurance costs this year to have this baby. Forcing that on someone as well.
DonnieDangles87
Your mom should have the right to kill you if you were too much of a burden on her then.
CriManSquaFandCdoubletime
We could feed house and clothe more children if religious organizations were taxed.
ChrisMorray
While true this may be seen as an attack on religious organisations' funding and will not land well on religious people.
Vivificus
It would be interesting to see what % of tax dollars and religious dollars go to feed/house/clothe children
allibaster12
Commas bro, commas.
CriManSquaFandCdoubletime
You don't know the story of House and Clothe? Old Germanic tale about two bridge trolls. They'd feed on naughty children of the village.
ohlookmemes
The return I get for tithing is higher than for taxes. I don't benefit from most schools, roads, health & other programs for which Im taxed
somepersondoingsomethings
Not at all true. The vast vast vast majority of churches do not make a lot of money and give what they can to the community. Also they are
geosynthetic
Yeah the only churches I suspect of not being largely charitable are those giant megachurches.
somepersondoingsomethings
Taxed on any income paid to them personally by the church.
JasonThorn
Oh, yes, let's give control of what the religious organizations do to the government. Because that is what will happen with the taxes.
thechelonianshelmet
Stupid comment, tax doesn't equal control, religous organisations however keep demanding control, also most religions aren't that charitable
aintgottimeforyou
Why are we giving religious organizations tax money? Why are we giving them a say in what our government does?
Magillaguerilla22
Because regardless of how wrong it is, it's too big of a change to make at a time when our president will do anything for conservatives
LionHeart31337
Well said.
DeviantPhuq
The priests, cardinals, alter boys, bishops are all citizens and can all vote. I don’t get what taxing the church has to do with policies?
PersonalDildo
Aren’t alter boys like under age most times?
geosynthetic
There's a 'but he said he was 18' joke in here somewhere.
ThatOtherTransGirl
Being pro-choice is not pro-abortion. It's recognizing our imperfect ability to care for children accidentally or forcefully conceived.
DonnieDangles87
Pro choice people should also be okay with mothers killing 14 year old versions of their children if they were too annoying.
ThatOtherTransGirl
Ideally, all of us are pro-life, but only if we can indeed provide all necessary services and care for that child after they're born.
OverpricedCrayon
People that call themselves pro-life tend to act like people that are pro-choice get abortions every Saturday because its fun. (1
OverpricedCrayon
I dont know anyone that makes the decision to get an abortion lightly. Its almost always done because the child would not be taken care of(2
ohlookmemes
Yes. Whether considering abortion, adoption, or parenting, each choice has responsibility & consequence. You choose for you & your child.
ReganOmega
The best way to curb that problem is a little thing call personal responsibly.
ThatOtherTransGirl
Comprehensive sex education and access to methods of birth control would be a great aid in that, which for some reason pro-lifers don't like
ThatOtherTransGirl
Abstinence is obviously the best, but you're fighting 4.5 bil years of hard-wired drives to mate, and also ignoring rape.
girlwithasurprise
I grew up in a religious circle that believed if a woman got raped it was "god's will" for her to have a child. Fuckin nuts
accountabyss
Logical fallacies: hasty generalization, red herring, Ad hominem, false analogy (religion and pro-life), Ad populum (appeal to prejudices).
itsatriplebaby
Fucking nuts indeed.
fatherfigure
OH WOW FUCK NUTS
snarflex
That may be the fundamentalist reasoning, I don't know. The Catholic reasoning is that the child is its own person, so 1/2
snarflex
performing an abortion on someone who's been raped only adds to the list of victims. 2/2
nero4ty2
you really should just reply to your own comments, makes it way easier to follow
EmpressYoy
fuck that noise.
barnwolf
That is messed up. Definitely not what the religious circle I grew up in believed.
silentwalke
yoikes. at least you got out.
jimmythehat1
Isn't part of that the belief that your body isn't your own, but property of God's? and if God made you pregnant he wants you to have a kid?
snarflex
That may be the fundamentalist reasoning, I don't know. The Catholic reasoning is that the child is its own person, so 1/2
snarflex
*shouldn't* be alive is a bit... unkind. 2/2
jimmythehat1
But then it's like, are you supposed to just accept everything then? getting cancer, shot, abused, etc?
nero4ty2
"yes, it's all part of god's plan, just trust in him" the nuns growing up in catholic school would always say
OverpricedCrayon
What if youre from a religion that believes differently? Are you still supposed to follow christian beliefs?
jimmythehat1
exactly. It's "I can't do that because it's against my religion" = ok. "you can't do that because it's against my religion." = not ok.
snarflex
In fact, there are groups of children of rape who lobby to have rape exceptions removed, happy that they're alive. Telling them they 1/2
snarflex
performing an abortion on someone who's been raped only adds to the list of victims. 2/2
TheTimesTheyAreAChangin
Fucking Catholics
roberto35121
Muslims*
snarflex
Ooh, a wild bigot appears.
HappyOuroboros
I support abortion rights. But i see it as a necessary evil. It aint a clear cut black and white issue. Which i wish people would agree on.
DonnieDangles87
Then you should be okay with your mom killing you as a 14 y.o. because you were too much of a burden on her.
HappyOuroboros
bringing life into the world is a responsibility. If a person cannot live up to the responsibility then don't do it.
Rubyredslippers33
DonnieDangles87
Yeah, why not? It is literally the Exact. Same. Thing.
MrsSoftcoreSteve
If you needed blood transfusions 24/7 for 14 years and your mom decided to stop and killed you in doing so then it would be the same thing
ReganOmega
But in that case it would be her responsibility to provide the necessities of life. She could not leave you there to just die.
MrsSoftcoreSteve
And under those circumstances yes because you can’t force her to be a blood cow for you.
ReganOmega
No, but she is required to provides you with the necessities of life.
DonaldTrumpsFlaccidHairpiece
Im personally pro-life, just as I am personally anti-adultery. If others choose to do what I feel is morally wrong, not my business.
Corona688
Interesting how you combine those two as if they're the same.
DonaldTrumpsFlaccidHairpiece
In God's eyes, they are. And if you are a secular pro-lifer, than you must be anti-euthanasia, death penalty, and anti-DNRs...
Corona688
A++ troll, would troll again
itsatriplebaby
Thank you for being reasonable. Everyone should just mind their own business and stop trying to get a law to ban things.
gozirra
Then you are pro choice. You are free to make your own choices.
LaytressOnTheMenjay
“If you don’t want slaves don’t own one.”
DonaldTrumpsFlaccidHairpiece
Except that is no longer a moral question, but a legal one. See, slavery has always been immoral, but not always illegal. Our laws are not >
DonaldTrumpsFlaccidHairpiece
decided by morality, but by legality, and opinion. Many things are legal, but immoral, while many things are illegal, but moral.
LaytressOnTheMenjay
And prolifers believe abortion is immoral and should also be illegal just as slavery is both.
DonaldTrumpsFlaccidHairpiece
And they are outnumbered. Welcome to the republic...
WorldsSmallestMegaDick
Yeah I feel like the people can do what they want argument stops at pretty fundamental questions like murder or owning people.
LaytressOnTheMenjay
You should have all possible rights until those rights start to infringe on the rights of others. <-I think that’s a basic libertarian POV
JamJarre
Eh. From their POV abortion is murder so you're saying "you should only stop killing kids if you're gonna raise them. Otherwise keep on!"
GreaterDog
Yea, the reason there are so many single-issue anti-abortion voters is because they are religiously impassioned against it. It's a non-
GreaterDog
sequitur to even consider it because it's literally baby-killing to them.
geosynthetic
This is usually the same side that loves the death penalty and stripping social programs.
Romale
Those 3 things literally have nothing to do with each other.
darkdragonempress
Stripping social programs leads to financial hardship which has people thinking an abortion is the only way.
Romale
There is this thing called adoption. Its probably a better outcome. You want to get republicans to agree to a social program?
darkdragonempress
The thing called adoption still requires the woman to be an incubator and make all the sacrifices that it comes with it.
Romale
You could get republicans to agree to socialize childbirth costs if it came with stopping abortion.
darkdragonempress
You’d think but even in places they keep putting restrictions they still fight to defund the places and programs that socialize the cost. 1
simiotic24
AKA “From the South’s perspective slaves are their property and we should respect that.” I don’t have to respect an absurd perspective
JamJarre
It's not absurd to disagree with abortion fella. When babies can now survive being born before the cut off, doubly so
LaytressOnTheMenjay
Pro-lifers believe they are the North in your analogy, with the humanity of the human fetus being denied a la slaves pre-civil war
malexmatt
Yeah, people need to understand that 'pro-life' like this is a positively ancient, core tenant of Christianity. 1/
malexmatt
They were just as vociferously against the infanticide of Greco-Roman paganism, for much the same reasons. 2/2
Sheprador
Their point of view shouldn’t mean shit when it comes to my rights to my body.
gerdygerdygerdy
I dont think abortion should be illegal, but I dont fully get how people dont feel like they're killing something when they do it. "My body"
gerdygerdygerdy
But nothing about the body inside of you.
RugbyandRollerCoasters
From their point of view it isn't your body that you're killing, it's the person you created that you're choosing to end their life.
HeightEnvy
Man, this whole topic scares me. The issue hinges on if the fetus is a living human. If not, then it's about a womans body and liberties.1/?
SteamyVents316
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this. It's something a lot of people should think through. However, the science seems clear(1/2)
SteamyVents316
that a new human being with unique DNA is created at the moment of conception, which, given enough time and proper care, will develop fully
brrrackobama
The "human" issue doesn't bother me. War, defense, execution, etc - society has decided there are times when it's ok to kill a human.
Carefuler
How can they not be living when they're growing? How can they be part of the mother's body, when they don't even have the same blood type?
ohlookmemes
We all agree the fetus is living.
Carefuler
Many pro-choicers insist they aren't really alive, or is a part of the mother, like a wart.
omh2
It doesn't thou, if you assume a fetus has full rights, it still doesn't affect abortion. No one has the right to impose on the bodily
omh2
autonomy of another person, not even for the preservation of their own life. The issue is actually simpler that way as the laws exist
[deleted]
[deleted]
omh2
Self defence does not involve or violate bodily autonomy so unrelated, but I personally like proportional response self defence laws
thradrena
I'm fairly confident that if someone was a threat to me or my family i'd very quickly violate their bodily autonomy with lead
Carefuler
"No one has the right to impose on the bodily autonomy of another person, not even for the preservation of their own life." So you're 1/
Carefuler
talking about the bodily autonomy of the child, right?
omh2
Bodily autonomy of the mother, life of the child
prfesser
Frog egg=/=tadpole; neither one is frog. Acorn=/=oak tree. Tomato seed=/=tomato plant nor tomato. Objectively, why is a fetus=human being?
Carefuler
Yeah, a frog egg and tadpole is pretty much the same creature as a frog, fyi. Seeds are plants and can be dormant, but once 1/
Carefuler
germinated, even as a small sprout, can be killed.
scoundr3l
Not sure how you did in 8th grade biology, prfesser, but a fetus isn't analogous to either a seed or an egg.
SteamyVents316
I think it would be a better comparison to have a young tomato plant/oak sapling vs. a seed. The seed is dormant (1/2)
SteamyVents316
waiting for the right conditions, whereas the fetus is alive, in the right conditions to develop into fully grown human. (2/2)
LearnToCook
Thank you.
HeightEnvy
But if the fetus is a living person, then it has its own liberties and expectations of being protected, like trying to abort a cchild 2/?
HeightEnvy
But what is human is not something that can be measured by science to my comfort level. So now what? 3/?
ghinker
shouldn't you just go with the taking of a life is more important if you don't know for sure?
Carefuler
They're growing so they must be alive. They have human DNA so they must be human (not the mother's DNA either so not "part of" her).
HeightEnvy
If I take a stand and am wrong, I'm either legalizing the taking of a human life, or stripping half of us of control of their own body! 4/?
HeightEnvy
And most people seem super certain of their view and I don't know how. It's just... scary. 5/5
TheTimesTheyAreAChangin
Everytime a woman has her period she is aborting
geosynthetic
This is a problem society has to solve. Is every sperm sacred? Does it begin at conception, heartbeat, brain signal, consciousness, birth?
PaladinAstro
You put that to words quite well. It is indeed a complex issue. I hope you never have to face that decision yourself.
Owlsdude
You can make the point that a 4 cells fertilized egg is not a human being yet. Now you have to find the place on the spectrum where it 1/
Owlsdude
it can't be considered just an egg anymore. If you pick up a seed from the ground and eat it, you didn't kill a tree
darkdragonempress
If you want to just be straight logical here, neither of those points really matter. You must solve the root issues of abortion and until 1
Rexli78
For me the cut off is 6 months that's when a fetus is viable out side the womb and when it becomes capable of consciousness.
SmolTenk
Not really.If my little sister was sick and needed a kidney, me being the only eligible donor, I could refuse, even if it lead to her death>
[deleted]
[deleted]
ReganOmega
Very good.
scoundr3l
Big difference, though: generally, pregnancy is preventable and voluntary. Maybe there should be more responsibility than none at all.
SmolTenk
Besides, Why would someone who intentionally got pregnant seek an abortion?
scoundr3l
Voluntary means of your own free will. If you get in an accident drunk, that may not be intentional, but you're still responsible.
SmolTenk
So its not about the child living but rather about punishing the parents for being unresponsible?
scoundr3l
Hey, you're the one putting forward the victim narrative. I'm not opposed to reasonable abortions, but maybe own up to your part in it.
SmolTenk
a child then the factors are not within control of the parents.
SmolTenk
But if a pregnancy results from failed birth control, withheld information or a sudden change in the basis for the decision to get
SmolTenk
What part? If we had universally available and infallible birth control combined with acceptable sex ed it would be a different matter.
SmolTenk
In fact, even if I died they could not use my kidney unless I explicitly allow them to. Its called right to bodily autonomy. I decide what >
ReganOmega
If you’re going to use argument of bodily autonomy, remember that there are two beings and one is going to be mutilated without its consent
SmolTenk
happens to my body and nobody else. But for some reason there are people who think women should not have that right.
Carefuler
Yeah, because the child's body Isn't part of the mother's body. Simple.
SmolTenk
Then it should be no problem to stop the baybies interaction with the mothers body right?
owen556
Good argument dude, always good to see sensible arguments in a shitstorm of comments (see planned parenthood was founded to kill blacks) wow
Flyms
The small difference is that you just dont help your sister while abortion is considered activly killing the fetus. If the fetus is no -
Flyms
living person, that would make abortion like removing your kidney. But if its a living person that would be killing it. //
OverpricedCrayon
But when does a fetus become a person? Surely not at the moment of conception
SmolTenk
So? If I dont render reasonable aid I am just as responsible for the outcome as if I am taking action. And if giving part of my body to
ReganOmega
Also where your analogy breaks down is that there is a difference between actions taken to cause death and actions not taken.
ReganOmega
Also, even though you are not obligated to give up one of your kidneys, you may have legal obligations to ensure their health and well-being
chardlz
The point people miss is that some people consider abortion to be murder. They see banning abortion as a ban on murder
sallyfromthevalleywaitinginthealley
Imo if it has little chance of surviving outside the body, it's not murder.
natabus
The point peoplee miss is that some people diguise their urge to controller others by repackaging it as a more benevolent motive.
yowen2000
The problem is their methods (or lack of) of preventing those (murders). Instead of making mothers feel safe and confident. (1)
yowen2000
They just stand around protest. They should be working on creating a world where people feel inspired to not terminate a pregnancy. (2)
IamJustinSane
And some people think that aliens visit earth to probe our assholes. Some people are just morons and should be ignored.
TitsMcGees
The irony in your shallow and asinine comparison between two groups of people really makes me wonder who the real moron is.
IamJustinSane
Let me help you out then. It’s you. Morons are morons, it doesn’t matter if they believe in Santa Clause, Alien anal probing or zygote life
TitsMcGees
Believing that a genetically unique organism with the potential for sentience is a life is a far cry from believing in alien anal probes.
IamJustinSane
Alien lives matter
mecrookedfrenchy
The all point of "abortion is murder" is in fact an imaginary statement. because for some anti abortion, it's not about being pro life 1/2
mecrookedfrenchy
It's about to force women to have children. because in their heads, they're being replaced by strangers in their country.
theMonkeyTrap
No that’s just what they consider most viable line of reasoning to get their religious beliefs forced on others.
theMonkeyTrap
.. this is the reason they continually want to push the definition of ‘person’ to as close to conception as possible.
simiotic24
Some people considered black people to be property, but we went to great lengths to disagree. Abortion care is a right.
TitsMcGees
A right given in the U.S by the same Supreme Court that allowed legal slavery...
ThermoNuke
Humans, the only beings who would celebrate a single cell found on Mars as life but finds a way to call millions of cells on Earth not life.
Voltair
IMO, if it's under 2 years old it's barely sentient and not that big a deal if it dies.
ghinker
you advocate killing toddlers?
FiftyShadesOfTiramisu
You left out the part where "some people" believe that a superpowered space alien infuses ZEFs with tiny invisible ghosts called souls.
FiftyShadesOfTiramisu
Which goes to show how batshit some people are & why we shouldn't base political decisions here in the real world on what some people think.
Pegged4life2
It is murder you twat
thefrompleman
then start educating your citizens
PecsPewper
Abortion IS murder, unless you can tell me specifically when a human being becomes a human in the womb. If you say "not until it's born(1/?)
PecsPewper
", then you are saying every baby who is in an incubator may as well be killed because they aren't technically born yet. Abortion is (2/?)
PecsPewper
murder. Period. The sad part is today's society (in particular radical feminists) are just looking at abortion as a get out of jail (3/?)
PecsPewper
free card. I cannot believe you people don't see this an anything else but an excuse to be irresponsible and murder with impunity. (4/4)
omh2
If you assume that a fetus has all of the rights of a person Abortion is still legal and not murder, as the fetus does not have the right to
omh2
That is fundamentally inconsistent with the law. In no other situation would compromising someone's body autonomy to save a life be legal
Sheprador
They can “consider” it to be murder all they want. It’s not.
Ezzy666
Some of them also consider birth control to be murder and also want to ban it.
Corona688
We don't "miss" it. It's just ridiculously illogical and internally inconsistent.
omgwtfhuh
Are those people also anti death penalty, anti war, etc? If not then it's not about murder.
Thesimpleman
Let's put on our big boy special thinking hats and see if we can spot the difference...
Enoan
It is totally reasonable to be appalled by killing of infants, and if that is how people see it then their stance makes sense.
3Pie14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097494
slickjim86
Well whats the difference in aborting a baby or a person? The law recognizes adults right to live but not babies? Its common sense
slickjim86
And when and where have u ever seen any pro life ppl be for starving children or making them live in empoverished places?
DonnieDangles87
I can care about someone not getting murdered without giving a shit whether they are fed, clothed, employed, or housed.
kankka
Please don't bring rational thought into the debate...some might be confused by that.
RyanMcAllister
crocostyle
Yeah, and this post is the counter argument: a life with no support is just a slow, more painful death.
TitsMcGees
Why do we get to decide whether a life is worth living or not? Seems a little presumptuous. Where is the line drawn? Eugenics?
owen556
Leads to increased crime as well, and adoption isn’t a great life either most orphans can have emotional problems or bad guardians
FaithAlone
The issue is what is considered "life", they go too far and say the potential for life is life and in that they are simple wrong.
ThatDwarfWhoStealsYourOpinions
So is it alright to burn down a house if it's still being constructed? After all, it's not a house yet.
LiteralFish
Uh. If I made it so far, its incapable of thought or feelings, and i could die or suffer lifelong ailments finishing it, then yeah. Its ok.
FaithAlone
A house is a poor analogy for your argument because it is property that belongs to an individual, kind of like an individual woman's body.
ghinker
so you believe that a baby is property of the mother? up until what point?
FaithAlone
What baby? There is no baby. There is potential for a baby, that is all. What there is, is a woman's body that she has full autonomy over.
theindebtedpharmacist
I recognize it as murder, but am okay with it. Also okay with euthanasia. We murder shit all the time, plants, animals, other people. 1 of 2
ViperFangsRock
the Hebrew word for "kill" in Exodus 20 [10 commandments] implies murder. we may kill plants and animals but it's technically not murder.
scoundr3l
Sure, but that doesn't really mean anything to the majority of people who are against Murder for non-biblical reasons
ViperFangsRock
lol, brilliant! so they're not against wanton killing of a fetus for biblical reasons, but they're against it for non-biblical reasons? 8}
scoundr3l
Yes
theindebtedpharmacist
Not an issue of not recognizing that, but of not seeing the same level of importance in it. 2 of 2
thefrompleman
We could also do with less people in general, this cesspool is getting too loud
snarflex
This attitude is why I think people are "pro choice" to begin with. They just... don't like people.
3Pie14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097494
I'll be honest, that mentality scares the crap out of me. Being okay with murder, absolutely boggles my mind, and terrifys me for the future
theyar
This is basically the only pro-choice position that stands up, and it's the only reason I'm not particularly against abortion rights.
snarflex
who've already failed at life? The disabled? The poor? People who are far more expensive to take care of than healthy kids?
snarflex
Considering it murder is at least intellectually honest, but in that case, why murder babies instead of people 1/2
originalWFHhipster
Abortions are often done when fetuses are clumps of cells.If you think that's murder, then you better freeze all your sperm when you jack it
MidgetRacer8192
uhh... no. perhaps you would like to watch the videos of abortions where they cut apart & pull out a dismembered body?
MidgetRacer8192
and I say that as someone who isnt opposed to abortion... just is real about it.
ninjakitten
This argument never makes any sense. Sperm is literally half of what's required to begin a fetus. And no, not all are clumps of cells. (1/2)
ninjakitten
Many are recognizable as human fetuses with facial features, bone structure, and an actual beating heart. (2/2)
Svartlebee
Fact is, it's not murder and a constitutionally protected right. Regardless of what the Christian Taliban say.
Thesimpleman
That's not a fact.
MadDrDrillBit
there was a time when killing slaves wasn't murder either
DeviantPhuq
“I think therefore I am” can a fetus think? Is it conscious of where it’s at? I agree it’s not murder.
WilwoWaggins
Like when you're drunk?
Imgazorpazorpfuckingfieldbitch
Actually it's protected by a supreme court decision. Not the constitution
Acronymicon
...for now
Svartlebee
The right to bodily autonomy is and that has been used by the Supreme Court to protect Roe v Wade.
reallynotmikepence
There is nothing in the constitution about bodily autonomy.
Svartlebee
https://www.justia.com/constitutional-law/docs/privacy-rights/ Supreme Court believes the constitution does in fact cover it.
NSAgent
The Supreme Court ruled that the individual liberties guaranteed by the constitution extend to a woman’s right to an abortion.
TheThingsTheyCarried
SC also ruled that businesses are people, women don't need to file for Selective Service, and, obviously, Dred Scott
TheThingsTheyCarried
It's the SC's job to interpret the Constitution, and they take "interpret" to some extremes at times. That's why rulings can change.
HamsterOnAGoat
Pro tip, don't use cringeworthy terms like 'christian taliban' if you want to be taken seriously
omgwtfhuh
I feel the same but each day's news makes it seem more and more appropriate.
Svartlebee
Pro tip, if they don't want to be labelled religious extremists, stop trying to make a theocracy.
HamsterOnAGoat
That has nothing to do with what I just said
Svartlebee
Yes it does. You said it's a cringey term, I'm pointing out that it is appropriate to describe people who want to make abortion illegal.
RationalDiscourse
Well, it is murder in the eyes of prolifers. It is not legally murder, true. But that isn’t because the constitution says so. It’s (1)
UnpopularOpinionPuffinPersonified
Actually, if I kill a pregnant woman, it is 2 counts of murder in most states. So it is legally murder to kill an unborn child. 1/2
RationalDiscourse
And decide life begins at conception; abortion is therefore, legally, murder; and that people don’t have a right to abortion. Fact is. (3)
RationalDiscourse
Because the SCOTUS decided it was a right. They could ALSO change their stance (which, given the new SC nomination by Trump, may happen) (2)
UnpopularOpinionPuffinPersonified
2/2 Roe v. Wade wasn't decided on whether or not it was murder, but on a woman's right to privacy in her own body from government intrusion.
itsatriplebaby
I don’t think they missed it. They consider a foetus nothing more than a cluster of cells in a woman’s body, so no murder. Which is fact.
ghinker
Every living human is, arguably, just a cluster of cells.
UnpopularOpinionPuffinPersonified
Interesting "fact". Because in Ohio where I live murder includes the killing of an unborn child. THAT is a fact. See RC 2903.02.
itsatriplebaby
Based on your state law? So not science. There are state laws that says oral sex is illegal. Laws are stupid and old. It’s 2018.
UnpopularOpinionPuffinPersonified
LOL at claiming science has anything to do with what the definition of murder is. Pure ignorance. FACT.
itsatriplebaby
Lol, murder means killing other humans, which means it needs a scientific definition of when a foetus counts as a human, you idiot
UnpopularOpinionPuffinPersonified
"Science" doesn't define words, nor does it even purport to claim when a human zygote becomes human life. Maybe YOU should read up.
itsatriplebaby
And what do you suggest? Mister I’ve read it all? The whole debate is based on no clear definition of humans and a cluster of cells.
WilwoWaggins
Yes, and just because I think it is wrong to murder any person does it mean I have to feed and support every person?
PangolinBan
I suspect it means you should also think it’s wrong to withold food and support from those who are in need, no?
ohlookmemes
Will you feed, care, & educate all the unaborted babies that go to await adoption if abortion becomes illegal?
PangolinBan
I'm pro-choice myself, just to be clear. That aside, I have zero issues with some of my tax money being used to care for infants who 1/2
PangolinBan
2/2 need it. And if the govt creates legislation that increases the number of these infants, they should allocate more funding accordingly.
WilwoWaggins
Yes if it is within your means. At the same time a person has a right to not be taken advantage of.
textilelover
Yeah, that newborn is really taking advantage of you...
PangolinBan
And what do you think has the best chance of being used by people who need it, and in a way that supports them towards a better life, 1/2
PangolinBan
1.5/2 rather than by those who shouldn't be in that position in the first place and more likely in a frivolous manner, a well-regulated
Beelsebooob
No, I don't miss that point, I just consider that point to be factually incorrect. It's not murder, because there's no significant 1/
Beelsebooob
neurological development, and thus no conscious life to kill. The same as picking flowers isn't murder. 2/2
3Pie14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097494
Hey @Beelsebooob can I send you a message on here, and talk to you about this? No, bashing, just a civil discussion.
snarflex
(2) disabled humans are still alive. Sleeping humans are, believe it or not, still alive. And yet killing them is illegal.
Beelsebooob
Believe it or not, disabled and sleeping humans have nervous systems, unlike fetuses.
somepersondoingsomethings
That's a bunch of bullshit.
Beelsebooob
Do you have any evidence to back up that assertion, or are you arguing purely from an emotional point of view?
somepersondoingsomethings
I'd love to see your evidence that a fetus is more comparable to a plant than a human being.
snarflex
It's murder because it's a unique, provably living human on the continuum of all living humans. Humans in comas are still alive.
Pegged4life2
Seriously no neurlogical development when development is cephalo-caudal
ThatDwarfWhoStealsYourOpinions
Flowers will not develop conciousness given time. You can't burn down a house just because it's not finished.
Beelsebooob
You sure can if you own it, and it'
Beelsebooob
s occupying your land.
snarflex
...you own your children? They certainly don't stop living on your land after they're born, either.
PeopleSeemToHaveLongNamesOnImgur
I'ts not factually incorrect, it's philosophically incorrect to you. You see it as a flower because there's no brain function others see it
MrAgrijag
Ok, when you pick up an egg that's just been laid, are you killing anything
PeopleSeemToHaveLongNamesOnImgur
That would not be the correct analogy. You analogy fits a woman having a period. The better analogy would be "when you pick up an egg that's
PeopleSeemToHaveLongNamesOnImgur
as the first step in getting to significant neurological development. This is the main sticking point that I think everyone on both sides
Beelsebooob
The first step in getting to significant neurological development is not the same thing as significant neurological development.
PeopleSeemToHaveLongNamesOnImgur
needs to calm down about. If you see it as killing a person, the person across the isle doesn't see it as that, they think they are
[deleted]
[deleted]
snarflex
Alternative to murder is worse? Double murder? Adoption?
jerzdood
Pt 2 then it should be be murder if the mother chooses to abort unless her life is in danger (self defense) or as a result of rape.
LoudBirb
But let's say someone purposely trips your wife and shakes a fertilized egg loose from the ovarian wall. Is that murder?
LoudBirb
Hell, let's take it one step further. Roughly 40% of fertilized eggs don't stick. Is your wife guilty of negligent manslaughter?
LoudBirb
The argument essentially boils down to defining "when does life start?" At what point do you draw the line? And it's a very nuanced argument
SewerSlug
Abortion is almost never used to save a woman's life, normally an induced birth is carried out instead.
jerzdood
I don't know how common, but in those cases where it is needed to save a woman's life then she and her doctor should be allowed to do so.
TheNuclearRabbit
I think part of it is the belief there really is nothing worse than murder.
ohlookmemes
Tell that to people who commit suicide.
unit47
It’s about controlling women. Period.
[deleted]
[deleted]
TheNuclearRabbit
I would separate "murder," "accidental death," and "lawful execution." Maybe also "hard choice," but "mercy killing" DNE in my worldview.
TheNuclearRabbit
That is, I understand ppl think of mercy killing as distinct, but I understand it to be morally equivalent to murder.
JVNK
"Ending someone's suffering" =/= murder, but now you have to define suffering.
jerzdood
If someone shot/stabbed my pregnant wife in the stomach ending the preganancy then I'd want them to be convicted of murder. If it is murder
snarflex
considered in sentencing. It's messed up. 2/2
snarflex
That's uncommon, and of course pro-choice groups occasionally come to the defense of the assailant to PREVENT the child from being 1/2
unclemeat70
You’re stopping a beating heart.
ghinker
what gets me is it only counts as "murder" if the mother wanted the child. and unwanted pregnancy doesn't count as a human life
katieCookieFlyer
No your not. It's before a heart develops. Unless there is a serious medical issue that would cause a late term abortion. No one wants that.
unclemeat70
Heart starts beating at 3 weeks. You can see it on ultrasound.
PaladinAstro
itispronouncedimgur
The heart starts beating around 6 weeks. Most advocates for abortion want it legal for far beyond 6 weeks. And 6 weeks isn't late term
FourtytwosQuestion
But since it is not murder i think these people should get there facts strait. And that's not an opinion, it's fact.
itispronouncedimgur
Your inability to spell properly and disregard for basic scientific facts makes you ill-equipped to participate in this dialogue.
FourtytwosQuestion
Well, only the ones without arguments need to be a grammar nazi to a non native speaker, so they do not see them self as the idiot they are.
itispronouncedimgur
My argument is clear. Scientifically, abortion is the ending of a life. Legally, that is murder. Conclusively, your opinion is incorrect.
FourtytwosQuestion
It's murder when you kill a human, and a fetus is scientifically just a bunch of cells, so imho that's where you got it wrong.
DeviantPhuq
Straight**
FourtytwosQuestion
thanks ... still not used to all words.
DeviantPhuq
English not the first language? You’re doing amazing! I thought you were just inner city or something....
FourtytwosQuestion
nope, german is my native language.
PetricusGaming
their**
smellyboots
The opinion part is on whether a fetus can legally be considered a person. And if not what rights it should have.
Beelsebooob
The problem is that it really shouldn't be opinion - there actually factually is not a nervous system capable of being considered a 1/
Beelsebooob
human life. If this is murder, then so is picking a flower. 2/2
somepersondoingsomethings
Again bullshit.
omh2
Just assume it's a person makes it really simple. Abortion is legal as the fetus, having the full rights of a person, does not have the
omh2
right to impose of the bodily autonomy of another for any reason, including the preservation of life.
DeviantPhuq
But then “they” still support the death penalty most times too....
Thesimpleman
Amazing, innocent babies should not be murdered, but murderers should be put to death, how intellectually dishonest of them
DeviantPhuq
Maybe if those murderers were aborted they wouldn’t have to be “put to death”
Wonderbeastlett
Mmm..capital punishment is for people who made a clear choice to kill, abortion the choice was made for the fetus..2 different things.
omgwtfhuh
The jury/judge are making a clear choice to kill and sometimes kill innocent people, just find out too late.
Wonderbeastlett
No a jury only says whether a person is guilty via evidence presented, the judge rendors a verdict of death or not...which is their job
TheNuclearRabbit
It's about due process of law. If in court a person is convicted of a serious enough crime, that's different from abortion.
rollercostarican
but the court convictions arent a perfect science. Numerous people have been convicted or executed only to later be found innocent
TheNuclearRabbit
True. Personally, I would peg the burden of proof quite high, like only for public crimes like mass shooters.
rollercostarican
even then, what do we gain from execution? Leave em in jail and have em work it off.Its not like arkham where criminals break out every week
KellyanneAlternativeFacts
Or pro-war...
PersonalDildo
No one is really “pro-war”, many Republicans just believe that the moves we’ve done with war were wrong
scoundr3l
Whataboutism. I'm sure most "pro-choice" people don't favor choice in all things. You can be a hypocrite and still make a valid point.
plainoldfool
Depends on which "they" you are referring to. For example, the Catholic church is equally vocal against capital punishment as it is (1)
Waaahmbulance
If the kids aren’t born, who will they rape?!?!
plainoldfool
against abortion. And FWIW, I know of one local Catholic charity run by a nun near me that spends as much money and resources, if not (2)
plainoldfool
more, on housing and tangible support for mothers and their children as they do on protesting at clinics. I'm still pro-choice myself (3)
plainoldfool
but I give them props for continuing their fight for life *after* a child is born.
n0th1n
Well, not equally vocal, but it is strongly vocal against both. It's also strongly vocally in favor of support for the poor.
plainoldfool
Anecdotal for sure, but growing up I saw more letter writing campaigns at my church about capital punishment than abortion.
n0th1n
Yea, place to place you'll find leaders that focus one thing more, but I think those issues are handled differently due to different context
smellyboots
The death penalty is as a debt to society for a culpable person, versus an innocent. The two are completely unrelated.
RationalDiscourse
While I agree with your 2 points, the two are hardly unrelated. It’s killing a person (depending on your def. of a person). But one is (1)
RationalDiscourse
Justified by the laws of man and nature due to actions of the deceased (depending on your philosophy) while the other person is innocent.(2)
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
As far as debts go, dying is hardly payment.
JifLover
*penalty
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
But they said “debt”. And you could argue that the dead don't suffer (it's supposed to dissuade other potential offenders, also dubious)
rollercostarican
my issue is many innocent people have been executed, and a bunch more have been found innocent while on death row. Its not a perfect science
IHugTrees
It’s not a science at all
smellyboots
This is part of the reason why I am opposed to both the death penalty and banning abortion outright. We need practicality for grey morality.
Craicerjack
Except for the part where you call yourself pro-life and yet are in favour of the death penalty.
smellyboots
Didn't say I was either. Pro life is a silly clumsy term designed to inflame emotions and I refuse to participate.
Craicerjack
That was the royal you - not you specifically.
smellyboots
Personally I am opposed to the death penalty but for reasons completely unrelated to abortion because they are such different issues.
DeviantPhuq
They’re related in the sense of killing a person. Don’t be dense...
evanolsen
It's a question of innocence vs guilt of terrible crimes.
DeviantPhuq
You guys are all caught up on one thing, what I’m saying is killing is killing is killing.
smellyboots
Yes that's what I take issue with. Killing a dangerous predator is not morally the same as killing a defenceless child.
UndulatingTerrain
You are right. Killing something is killing, whatever the reason for it.
smellyboots
This is very simple stuff. Killing a person because they are an inconvenience vs killing them as a response to heinous crimes is different.
KellyanneAlternativeFacts
Abortions aren't just getting rid of an "inconvenience"... They are often because of extreme circumstances (life risk to mother, rape, etc)
smellyboots
Is every time a life is destroyed morally identical in your world? Personally I'm for neither but to pretend they are same is dense as hell.