maximilianfragglebottom
92825
2429
74
Jun 12, 2021 9:38 PM
maximilianfragglebottom
92825
2429
74
ChucKTheCanadian
Most peoples can do it, at lower scale, if they want. One of my finance advice suggest this to me years ago.
mkwai
What was the name of that thing in ancient Rome where they would kill a noble and appropriate their wealth in the name of the state?
mkwai
Oh, I got it: proscription. Let's proscribe the rich.
ToSisPoS
Robert Reich is great at “we should do something!” reportage. I guess he does his part by telling us all the bad things.
swinglinered
What a great plan! Since loans are DEBTS, they cannot be taxed as income. Because debts are not income. Sneaky! Just keep rolling it over...
PurifiedByLakeMinnetonka
Come on Jeffrey you can do it!
Flowerlady0
There's a Shuffle that happens with their stock. Let's imagine it as apples. Red apples are selling $3 lower per pound than usual.>
Flowerlady0
If they don't sell those apples then they have unrealized losses. However, if they buy green apples, which are also selling for $3 a pound >
Flowerlady0
Lower than usual, after selling their red Apple stocks, they experienced "realized losses". They claim those on their taxes.>
Flowerlady0
Even though they essentially traded One stock for another almost identical one. That's why they never pay taxes.>
Flowerlady0
Its a money shuffling game. People who don't have a lot of money in the stock market are kept from playing it.
CartoonCat01
The truth will get downvoted, it’s because their wealth is unrealised capital gains on stock holding, actual income is low as most of their
CartoonCat01
Lifestyle is maintained from corporate expenses covering things and likely donations covering the shortfall. Also eat the rich.
BahamutBBob
Warren Buffet wants to pay more taxes IIRC.
mr0xx
Interest on your loans is tax deductible doesn't mean its free. That's like saying I can buy a F150 and its tax deductible and so free.
mr0xx
"If you’re in the 37% tax bracket, for every $1 you pay in interest, you will save $0.37 cents on your tax return."
mr0xx
But, if you're not paying any tax, you don't get any tax deduction from interest. Also, not any interest is tax deductible. Credit card isnt
GeneralPrower
So even if we raise their taxes, they'll still beat them. Fuck.
gamerely2718
Laws should be constantly updated to keep up with expansion of life. The system just never was built for this thing, on purpose, but still
incorrectgamertag
So our problem is not with the rich, but the govt officials who wrote those laws.
llAzraelll
Because they have huge loans they're classed as being in debt. Because they're in debt they get a handful of other benefits
dwilson0725
"You would do it too if you could." Some people actually have a heart.
Volpe42
And how many of them are Republicans again?
StarvingGarbage
In their rhetoric? Few. In their actions? All
hardytardigrade
Why don't you tell us, that is if you have that information. If you don't, what's your point?
glumlorsanchez
As Carlin said it's a big fucking club and your not in it.
Splittmark
I thought the max you can write off was like 3k. Must be for us poor only
wthamidoinghere
re people
AJ2071
Simple - banks should cap the max they will loan... to anyone, for any reason
LandiniusMaximus
Well ya kinda did build a country that was only going to be fun for the top 5%...
SonderingStrike
Fun fact, murder is morally dubious, but breaking into their house and tar + feathering them is the morally correct thing to do.
BloodLoveRhetoric
Use pine tar, it's highly survivable.
SpikeReynolds
Molasses works good as well.
SentientSpork
Separately from supporting this, I wonder how "it's highly survivable" would work in court
waitwhat1234
Well, it would exclude you from a premeditated murder charge.
EroticZombiePants
It's a shame us Americans are too much of complacent pussies to ever start doing that.
YankeeShame
We did do that. In the 1700s. Look at the British tax collectors.
TheFoxhounded
WE didn't do shit though. We just inherited the mess.
TheStreetForce
So if I take a 100k loan in january and pay it back over the year with my paychecks i dont need to pay taxes?
rk57957
Not quite, 1st you're paycheck will have FICA & medicare taken out automatically. 2nd You can only deduct the interest 1/2
rk57957
2/2 so off a 100k loan my CU offers a 6.24% rate so you'd only have about $6,240 you could deduct from taxes.
ImAnActionBirb
I need the answer to this
mr0xx
Exactly. The whole thing is missing a step or two. I don't see how you don't have to pay tax on money you acquire.
darthtator
The loans are paid back when you die. Then it's repaid through the estate and income tax doesn't apply.
barnwolf
Unless they just never pay back the loans? Like if they sell assets to pay back the loans, that sale of assets is now taxable income.
mr0xx
But the difference in the sale of the asset and the loan amount is still taxable.
barnwolf
Pretty sure the full sale of the asset is taxable.
barnwolf
Eg take out a loan to buy a house $10, pay $1 in interest, sell $11 of stock to pay off the loan...
BernieKl
Opened an account with a private bank. They offered me a zero interest million dollar loan, principal repaid from the investments.
polarpurple
Incorrect. Only the INTEREST (the amount you pay above the original 100k principal) is tax deductible.
mr0xx
Only certain types of interest are tax deducible. Student loans. Home mortgage loans. Otherwise, me and my buddy can give loans to us.
mr0xx
And, pay ourselves whatever interest and then deduct the interest on our taxes.
polarpurple
Which potentially pokes FURTHER holes in the image above. This is all from an extremely juvenile understanding of financial matters.
mr0xx
Exactly. They say those rich people didn't pay taxes but just how. That loan thing doesn't make sense in terms of not paying taxes.
BeerFueledAdventurer
Your paychecks are income, hence income tax. The rich don't have paychecks; they get tax-free loans against their assets, as Reich explained
mr0xx
How do I get tax-free loans against my assets? I have a house as asset. I still have to pay tax on my income to pay the monthly loan amount.
mr0xx
What I don't get it how do you pay back the loans though? That money to pay back the loans will be taxed as income.
mr0xx
I don't really see a way you can avoid getting taxed for paying for something.
mr0xx
Suppose I buy something with my credit card. But, eventually I have to pay it back and that will only come from income which will be taxed.
SmoothOpawriter
You are correct, this post is misleading.
darthtator
It's done after his death, thus avoiding any incoming tax at all.
mrforbeez
Yeah, they never explain this part. They'll have to sell something or get paid (paycheck or dividend), and that should be taxed... right???
[deleted]
[deleted]
mrforbeez
So if I sell off $1,200 worth of stocks that I paid $600 for to make a $1,000 loan payment, I'm only on the hook for $200 in capital gains?
SmoothOpawriter
No you’re still on the hook for $600
mrforbeez
I figured. The now-deleted comment suggested otherwise. (probably why it was deleted)
SmoothOpawriter
Yes it would. If they take a loan and make money on the loan, the earnings are taxed. But the trick is that the loan is taken against an
SmoothOpawriter
Existing asset - like real or stock holdings estate so that way they don’t have to liquidate to gain access to money and if they don’t
SmoothOpawriter
Liquidate, they never pay income on those assets, while the assets just gain in value. The loan would have to be payed back eventually but
mrforbeez
I see, it gives the asset time to appreciate. Why sell 20 shares for $2,000 now, when I could get a loan, and sell 10 for $2,000 in 5 years?
SmoothOpawriter
Would presumably allow them to wait to so that the assets would qualify for capital gains tax only … that’s my interpretation at least…
BloodofHeroes
The scandal is that the rules are manipulated to work in directly this manner. And paid for by the rich to ensure those rules don't change.
BrazilianThunderPanda
Also donate any art to charity. Find a piece in your collection you’re ok with selling. Hire an appraiser to say it needs to be worth $X. >>
BrazilianThunderPanda
It’s now worth $X. Donate that art to a museum. Thank you for the $X donation.
mr0xx
Can I do that with my goodwill donation also? Hire my buddy to appraise an old coat at $100K and put $100K as donation to charity?
SmoothOpawriter
Technically you can, yes
HarryHighpantss
skipweasel
And why is it legal? Because they use vast amounts of money and influence to have it made legal.
Awmph
Politicians work for their donors. It's that simple.
blastedsteak
And only the right created and continually DONT CHANGE all these laws right? If only dems had full control of, oh wait they do and have...
StNickCage
A system designed by greed
RawSuger
lobbyism has exactly the same power as ads. in the end you have to blame ppl for what they vote/buy, not the ads.
khora
Perhaps Jeff Bezos can scrape by on the four billions he got from selling shares, and paid one billion in taxes on?
ElbowDeepInUserSub
If YoU cHaNgE iT wE'lL jUsT sToP cReAtInG jObS!
mr0xx
I thought it was because of charity. You can deduct charity if you have give more than your standard exemption.
RawSuger
that too (which is weird btw,like a get to choose how your money is spent but for the rich) but they dontgive that much to charity vs wealth
we33vvk6nz9
And we don’t vote those people out who don’t fight those insane tax policies
only90skidswillgetthis
These particular laws have existed longer than Amazon or PayPal. It's systemic
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Ya, they were created by even older rich assholes. Oligarchy is the reality of the usa.
basiccricket8444
I think the worst part is the IRS, our gov, etc know who how and when they do it and it's some how considered bad to stop it
martineb72
It's not illegal. IRS can do nothing about it. This is up to Congress, but I don't see them doing it.
beziot
Yep, if IRS could create laws, it would be another problem.
CyanideBreathMint
Can't stop the trickle train.
errrikblack
It's not that it's considered bad. It costs too much money to try to audit rich people. They admitted this in a report like 2 years ago.(1/2
incorrectgamertag
Yep. The legality of it won't mean anything until the IRS gets off their lazy ass to go after them.
TheSonAndHeirOfNothingInParticular
It isn't laziness. Their budget keeps getting cut, so they don't have the resources to do it. The wealthy can hire better accts. & lawyers.
smorsdoeuvres
mr0xx
All four of the men listed above - Buffet, Musk, Bloomberg, Bezos - are all self made and from success of their companies.
RawSuger
you really bought in on the moral code that glorifies it eh? none of those are selfmade, they sell products others make and take most profit
Zentigger
"And how do you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By perpetuating the class differences in our society! If there's ever going to be
mr0xx
How has Buffet, Musk and Bloomberg exploited their workers? Apart from warehouse work, Amazon is a very high paying company.
mr0xx
My point is that their wealth is from them creating a multi-national high-value company and not straight up exploitation of other people.
SensitiveShiori
they dont pay taxes, anyone who has over a billion dollars is not self made, they are stealing from their employees.
Zentigger
any progress..." "Dennis, there's some lovely filth over here!"
BarbedWireCatheter
Didn’t Bezos get like $400,000 from mommy and daddy to start up amazon? That’s the one i know about, i’ll look up the other three
mr0xx
Bezos already had a successful career in finance before he left to "sell books on the internet".
mr0xx
He graduated in 86 and founded Amazon in 93. So, 7 years of career in finance.
gudhixfullon
Did he get the 400k from his parents, though? I'm 10 years in engineering (successful). I'll ask my parents for my 400k now.
saysomethingcool
I'm not mad at bezos for utilizing the tax loopholes. I'm mad at politicians that created those loopholes. They are the real shit bags
RawSuger
politicians have done exactly what they said they'd do. dont be mad at them, be mad at republican voters for selling out their country
holli014
I dunno. I'm kinda mad at all of them.
SuspiciousCactus
I mean ya, them too, but the Bezos are the ones bribing them to create those loopholes. So its not just falling into their lap.
hardytardigrade
Exactly. Be mad at Bezos for treating his workers like shit to maximize profits.
MrFnortner
This is not what it seems. If I borrow $1 million at 1% and earn 5%, the net is $40,000 (for each million borrowed). Then I pay income...
MrFnortner
...tax on the $40,000. Then I have to return the $1 million. I would be better off just investing my own untold wealth and ignore the bank.
dudehiemer
Corporations and the Bexoses of the world hire lobbyists to influence law makers to make these laws though.
only90skidswillgetthis
None of the mentioned laws and techniques are younger than Amazon or PayPal. It's systemic
saysomethingcool
Why? Because politicians can be bought. You better believe huge % of Americans would do this same thing if they had the $$
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Anyone can be bought in some form. Be it money or blackmail. We need to make bribery illegal again.
Volpe42
They are politicians, don't act shocked
Filanwizard
I am mad that some of the poorest people in this country support this system. While living in a rotting double wide and working two jobs
Filanwizard
And paying a larger percentage of their income to tax than a billionaire
stja
Wanna guess who paid them to create those loopholes?
saysomethingcool
People long before bezos
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Yes. Hes just the new guy who reaped the benefits of and maintains a long history of oligarchs bribing politicians. Or blackmailing them.
BabyFaceMaroni
Someone explain this to me: private loans or corporate loans? How does this work?
culinarydream7224
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/id/48220824
culinarydream7224
I thought this bit deserved it's own comment
SmoothOpawriter
The post is misleading but in a nutshell it will allow them to avoid paying short term capital gains by leveraging loans so in the long run
SmoothOpawriter
They end up accruing loan interest and capital gains tax on the money used to pay back the loan. But interest can be written off further
SmoothOpawriter
Reducing the tax burden. In the end, one would end up paying significantly less tax than someone with a similar income and a W2
SmoothOpawriter
Plus If the assets they hold, appreciate significantly faster than the interest rate on the loan then it’s a no-brained.
blkbdgr
Ummm….
culinarydream7224
https://www.businessinsider.com/american-billionaires-tax-avoidance-income-wealth-borrow-money-propublica-2021-6?amp
mr0xx
"the wealthy need only pay back the principal and interest" WTF? Then, how does this work?
culinarydream7224
How does what work?
barnwolf
Where do they get the money to pay back the principle? Sell some stocks, but that sale would then be subject to capital gains tax.
culinarydream7224
They could use their "meager" salary, or part of the money borrowed from the bank itself
mr0xx
When you take out a loan, I also have to pay only the principal and interest. Why only? What does that statement mean?
culinarydream7224
I dont know too much about loans, but some may also have fees attached. It could also mean "to avoid paying taxes, they need only pay etc"
SmoothOpawriter
Yes, the trick is that while you pay the loan back with your W2 income, bezos would pay it back with capital gains on Amazon shares. This
SmoothOpawriter
Means that he will only have to pay capital gains tax on the money used to pay back the loan. And if his investments appreciate faster than
SmoothOpawriter
Accrued interest on the loan, then he effectively covers the cost of the interest over time by just letting his stocks / real estate grow..
GryphonHunter
Being poor is expensive
peterbozeman
Tell me about it.
FlatPlutoSociety
Sam Vimes has entered the thread.
tevyethemad
I keep telling people, surviving poverty is a skill most ricg people dont have.
[deleted]
[deleted]
iamyourhuckleberry
Fucking spam bot. Watches are ?
JustAnotherVisitor
Something something boots something something
johnvictor
You pay for it not in just money but time as well.
matti55
Then stop being poor idiot
IhopeyougetstageIIIcoloncancer
KnifeKnut
This isn't funny anymore.
GryphonHunter
So simple, how has no one thought of that before??
MellowJalapeno
Homeless dude here I thought of it already but I'm stil homeless...
GryphonHunter
You must just not have thought hard enough
MellowJalapeno
I must be a poor idiot then
WeaselBandit
WeaselBandit
WeaselBandit
mr0xx
Doesn't Denmark have free university? Or was that Finland? Wikipedia page for student loans in Denmark says it's a grant.
Nakeela
Yes Uni is free but food, rent, electricity and what not is not. Plus because we get paid (SU) our education system is structured like a 1/2
Asikar
What, and I say this with all possible offence, THE GODAMN FUCK.
Sjama
And imagine being homeless (in a couchsurfing way) and letters reg debt being delivered to the Apartment of the ex, so you are late with...
TormentedPenguin
Elon doesn't have a salary, no income tax. Bezos gets 84k salary so very little taxes offset by charity donations. Sell stocks, pay CG taxes
khora
Elon paid $455 M on $1.5 B sold shares and Bezos $972 M on $4.2 B sold shares.
mr0xx
Then why the whole charade of taking out loans?
mr0xx
Taking out loans at lower interest rate than what the market is going to give is a good idea. My car loan is 2% and stock market is 8%.
mr0xx
But doesn't avoid taxes since I have to pay the bank every month which comes from taxed income.
khora
They don't want to sell shares that they think are going to go up in value. (more than the interest)
mr0xx
Like I pay 2% on my car loan when I know i can get 8% on stock market. But, I still have to pay monthly car loan which I pay taxes on.
khora
I believe the real reason why Musk and Bezos are sitting on their shares is to control the company.
mr0xx
So, over the time of the loan, I pay taxes on the loan + interest and thus creating more taxes.