ButtBot9900
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It'll be too accessible!
Nov 16, 2021 4:10 PM
ButtBot9900
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TheBricking
The problem is we needed better batteries to hold that charge.
juiceman
"Stupid paraphrasing that dumbarses think is clever"
pummel5
Pro green comments or not I'm liking how rational and alive this comment section is.
cedrychskye
Hopefully this turns into a viable solution for storage. https://www.popsci.com/energy/new-silica-sand-energy-storage/
zanaria
So they admit that they are ruining the planet because of greed...
filiuspelei
I actually study this stuff, and its a big practical problem: the whole grid is built assuming a few large distributers. So, we have to ->
filiuspelei
redesign the entire infrastructure and market underlying our electrical grid. Its a massive undertaking.
DonovanAlkire
:0 Meanwhile, Tesla is rolling, rolling, rolling in his grave.
adogusingtheinternet
The problem with solar is pre pollution and solar panels not functioning long enough to make up the difference. These companies collect ...
adogusingtheinternet
Government subsidies then go out of business when they can't afford to cover their warranties then start up new companies and do it again
Funkyfreshmeems
The surges and shortages in renewable energy are a major hurdle to it's viability. It's a real engineering hurdle not just greed.
NoFather
To be fair MIT Technological Review isn't a business, and not being able to monetize solar power will hinder companies picking it up.
Tesseract09
It's also a problem for other generators. If you're running a coal plant there essentially becomes part of the day where you're incurring
Tesseract09
Running costs, and being charged for putting power into the grid because you can't curtail generation any more because then you'd have to
Tesseract09
Shut the generator down. Gas has a similar issue, but can react quicker. On the flip side, companies with storage can get paid to draw power
Tesseract09
Out of the grid.
squirreltactics
The real excess problem is storage, as reliable storage is needed for non peak times such as at night when there is no generation.
Xenarion
So let's invest in that instead.
squirreltactics
Large scale storage with lithium ion isn't exactly viable. Other options are being considered.
thepuppeteer777
they will still tax that shit.
pseudopseudonym
The massive fluctuations in the power provided by solar is in fact a major obstacle to solar making up a majority of power.
pseudopseudonym
OP tweet is just a bad take by someone with no understanding of the issue.
Svartsinn
Uh no... this is a problem. You need scaleable energy generation and no, batteries are not an answer. Not on the scale needed.
CakeShapedPie
Aluminum refining is a partial answer. An aluminum plant is a giant battery you recharge to get aluminum metal. You can turn that metal 1
CakeShapedPie
Back into electricity if you need instead of pulling it off to sell. 2/2
walkingdad1960
The grid functions as a system, it controls the "extra" by shutting down power generation and redistributing available power to other - 1/2
walkingdad1960
-areas. if too much generated by one section a section closes down, Solar is one part of the equation. The issue is, "who owns the solar."
PerfectManhattanUp
This is an actual problem, though. People trying to make everything into some evil capitalist plot to keep them down is getting tiresome.
JesusStoleMyWeed
Not some evil capitalist plot, but once again a solution is shot down because money. THAT is getting tiresome
PerfectManhattanUp
No it's more that the problem is poorly phrased. The problem doesn't really have anything to do with money, it's a mismatch between...
PerfectManhattanUp
Supply and demand which can be illustrated by citing price since everybody (should) knows that price is proportional to demand/supply (or...
PerfectManhattanUp
A polynomial function thereof). The point is that solar creates a ton of power when it's not most needed and less power when it is...
PerfectManhattanUp
Needed. That's a genuine problem that has nothing to do with money.
nacham
Negative prices are a problem because utilities still provide power when solar is not enough, and we need them when the sun is not shining
TheActualFBI
I don't see how is that a problem.
RagingNorseman
I don't get why it would go into the negative. They could just ground the excess.
ChemicalG
Its the way voltage/current travels in a circuit, high to low, also it can be beneficial for the plant for it to occur instead of losing it
Sassafrasquatch
You don't get it, we'd have to PAY THE SUN MONEY!!!
BeanTootsAreBest
Tucker Carlson is probably gonna say this sometime
VidiVeniThenSheLeft
System load limits + power generation that can't be flipped on/off easily (like nuclear), for example. If you get a sudden surge in power 1/
VidiVeniThenSheLeft
Generation that exceeds demand for power, you can turn off certain generators more easily than others. But some can't be shut off that way 2
VidiVeniThenSheLeft
and need to discharge their electricity somewhere for safety reasons. In this case, they would pay to be able to discharge. 3/
VidiVeniThenSheLeft
Otherwise, they risk damage to their own generator. 4/4
Cavalrysword
And make electricity burgers?
Mewmus
+1 to you
baconthatisall
This fucking guy
ekstrax
The problem with renewables is we cant adjust supply to fit demand is what they mean... Unless de invent better batteries
HamSlamwich
Simpsons did it
nunyabidness99
If the power companies were smart, they would divert all that excess energy into carbon capture tech and double down.
Tesseract09
Carbon capture can go and get fucked with the other fairy tales and stop stealing investment from actual renewables.
Bizarkly
Or -- as the coming floating wind farms will have it -- convert seawater into hydrogen...
SpiteLip
The real issue with solar is we don't have the infrastructure to store or transmit the surplus.
DavidBrooker
That is, in many senses, equivalent to the MIT Technology Review Tweet.
DavidBrooker
ie: prices go negative because the power is *going* to be generated, and they can't store it, so it *has* to be dissipated by someone
JStengah
It's estimated that we could reduce emissions levels from the power sector by 80% of what they were in 1990 just by upgrading our
JStengah
our power grid by 2030. https://www.science.org/content/article/better-power-lines-would-help-us-supercharge-renewable-energy-study-suggests
AnathemaNoreh
This. People who can make inferences and understand the world realize the rest of that tweet goes something like "so there are periods of /
AnathemaNoreh
excess energy production which can't be stored long term, but is billed like that, and periods of low production which would cause increase/
AnathemaNoreh
in cost and maybe blackouts." They're not saying it's bad, they're saying WHY it's not feasible either financially or technologically right/
AnathemaNoreh
now, which is not the same thing. Same end result, but not the same thing.
SpiteLip
Also, understanding and outlining the issues or gaps is the first step in addressing them. Project MNGT 101.
Mec26
Dang it, if only we could invest in infrastructure. But as we know, that is socialism.
prfesser
Yet.
WhatzitTooya
Rome wasn't build in one day either.
Duskiewastaken
outside of batteries, storing what we don't use as hot water would make a great dent into our yearly energy consumption.
PelonisBoxFan
Hence needing to I vest in building such. Never get away from fossil fuels if we keep waiting for the perfect situation.
cedrychskye
We may soon.https://www.popsci.com/energy/new-silica-sand-energy-storage/
DiscombobulatedQA
Storing is probably the bigger issue of the two as the tech needs huge improvements. Personally, I have high hopes for graphene batteries
[deleted]
[deleted]
Vazaha
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity
SpiteLip
Yeah, but once stored we need to be able to draw on it as well. Current lines can't handle the load or distance in many cases.
DiscombobulatedQA
But the problem is Infrastructure needs a world wide kick, not just western countries. That will be a huge cost and resource drain
JStengah
Storing it is certainly important, but being able to transmit it accross the entire continent is better and reduces the need to store it.
mehimbored
And if you live in South Dakota, the energy companies want to charge you for creating your own energy through solar panels
mehimbored
https://www.sdpb.org/blogs/news-and-information/black-hills-energy-proposal-may-dampen-solar-financial-incentives/
adrianenspired
"...sometimes even into negative territory" yeah remember when that happened to oil a while back? that was hillarious.
seyne
And like with the oil, negative numbers basically indicate that the cost of storing it until someone wants it is more than it'll sell for
adrianenspired
which should point to investments in battery tech being a good call
seyne
Yeah, although for large scale energy storage pumped hydro or similar is going to be a better option for the foreseeable future
EvenColorGod
pumped hydro is fantastic but geographically limited. we're probably going to end up with conventional battery or maybe counterweight.
seyne
Yeah, there are other options that may be better for some locations (flywheels, lifting/stacking up heavy blocks, etc.)
DeputyWhiskers
IIRC that negative pricing point was heavily driven by retirement investments not knowing that WTI contracts require physical delivery@ term
Bamfghanistan
its less about not knowing and more about misjudging liquidity in the pandemic
HarryPotter918
Can we just make our own solar panels?
PutItInNeutral
If you know how, yes. You can even connect it to the grid and if you generate more power than you use, the power company is required to...
PutItInNeutral
...pay you for the excess.
HarryPotter918
Any cool YouTube videos for making your own solar panels?
PutItInNeutral
I haven't looked into it. Same is true of any power generation. I'd have an electrician wire it to your meter though.
pyroshen
Dude, just search for yourself.
dohcohv
Then they fired a bunch of drivers, shut down refineries and gas is over $4/gal now.
HorrorOfBiblion
Over $5 in some places. Drove through some towns today and saw it.
ImAnAustralian
It's cheaper to buy cocaine and run everywhere.
Marsupialmessiah
And still no drivers. Fucking knee jerk reaction for quarterly results
WorthEveryPenny
Capitalism does supply chain in a nutshell
SingingMeAndCthulioDownByRlyehFhtagn
Jamesstin
You think firing drivers is the only affect of low oil cost?
VirtualNaut
I don’t think @dohcohv said it was the only thing. But if you have more reasons I’m sure we users would like to hear it….
VirtualNaut
As I for one am out of the løøp, brøther!
Jamesstin
I should have said "drivers are the only notable job lost?" People do not grasp the herculean effort put in my workers to produce oil.
saturatedcottonballs
But now there more profitable than ever! So everyone should celebrate! /s
DonovanAlkire
We've only got 40 years of it left....
dohcohv
I'll just power my car with grain alcohol
DonovanAlkire
That is an option! :)
yourbassist
Gas is not over 4/gal now. Yours might be but the current average is 3.41
Gargwill
Hahaha we're paying £1.50+/litre for diesel here in the UK. That's equivalent to $7.64 a US gallon... Petrol(gas) isn't much cheaper.
mynamespaul
Huh? Just next door in Ireland, diesel is cheaper than petrol. Wonder why that is.
OohReilly
How's Brexit going?
Einstein9073
Oof size: brexit
Justtakealookatthis
Here the prime minister just announced a stop on gas prices until Feb. because people'd not be able to afford using their cars soon otherwis
mynamespaul
But people using their cars less is a good thing?
Fedupmiddleageman
People moving is commerce and economy. No movement no money and dont say bikes when you live in california you have to have a car.
mynamespaul
How can the UK prime minister fix the price of a global commodity? Are they gonna subsidise it or forgive taxes as the global price rises?
Justtakealookatthis
Not UK, and he did by making the gov. pay the difference, so we'll pay for by extra tax money, I guess.
manamongstyou
What would you say the avg price for petrol has been for you over the last decade? Before all the current Shit.
Gargwill
Over £1 a litre I think.
somethingsomethingwittyhere
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/oil-and-petroleum-products-monthly-statistics
somethingsomethingwittyhere
RE engineer here: Sorry but that interpretation is BS. The problem is that most renewables (except hydro and AD gas) are not dispatchable 1/
JodyBird
Isn't that what "negative price" is? Getting paid for storing power instead of generating it?
varesya
To put in layman's terms, the electrical grid needs to balance supply and consumption or things break. "Prices going negative" means we - 1/
varesya
have way too much energy being pumped in so someone needs to cut back production somewhere to compensate.
IDontKnowWhatToDoAnymoreAndImTired
Thank you! Too many people don't get this.
juiceman
Nobody wants reality, they just want to feel put upon.
somethingsomethingwittyhere
but intermittent. Until we solve the issue of grid-level storage, there will be times we get oversupply and have to curtail RE production 2/
somethingsomethingwittyhere
ie turn them off temporarily and times they're not enough, so we need peaker gas plants to top up the need. There are ways to fix this, 3/
somethingsomethingwittyhere
it's mostly about bringing down the cost of storage, demand side management and fault ride through (distributed generation complicates 4/
somethingsomethingwittyhere
things when it comes to grid stability. Comment format here isn't practical venue to explain it any better, hope it was enough. 5/5
Articate
I think storage will forever be a losing man’s game. If we’d kept building atomic reactors, we would have the baseline covered.
Tesseract09
And it gets frustrating repeatedly trying to explain grid operation to people
Ihatenumbersinusernames
No, the problem with solar is the massive amounts of dangerous / toxic waste produced during manifacturing/installing.
JStengah
It still has far less of an impact than natural gas or oil burning plants
Ihatenumbersinusernames
True, but wastly more then nuclear. Still Gas is infinately better then coal.
Tesseract09
The problem with nuclear is if you want a plant in 10 years, you would have needed to start planning it 20 years ago, and have billions to
Tesseract09
Burn in the mean time for the construction. It's be good to have more eventually, but just seems wasteful in the near future
Tesseract09
When there are many currently adoptable technologies that can pay off quicker.
MrFancyPanzer
Ironically windmills in Norway are releasing a lot of methane from the ground they are standing on.
UnrustleYerJimmies
Why?
MrFancyPanzer
The earth stores a lot of carbon and gasses, marshes especially.
Ihatenumbersinusernames
And windmills are installed on bedrock along the coastline.
MrFancyPanzer
https://www.nrk.no/klima/xl/vindkraft---ikke-sa-bra-for-klima-som-vi-tror_-1.15157461
UnrustleYerJimmies
But what does that have to do with the windmills?
MrFancyPanzer
Their construction released the gasses.
DrunkBobRoss
The problem with solar is battery technology.
dakkaffex
That and the fact that's it's difficult to use effectively in area with low amount of sunlight
ShouldIReallyGoWithMyOldUsernameFuckItCallMeAcromos
And infrastructure, like smaller and medium sized smart grids. But yeah large scale energy storage is a big one
RagingNorseman
... or superconductor technology
Nuttsy
One near-magic super-fancy at a time, dear.
RagingNorseman
I've been promised cold-fusion for years darn it!
Nuttsy
I know, right? AH WANT MAH ROBOTWERK!
woobniggurath
Have you heard of green hydrogen?
Tesseract09
Yeah, bloody inefficient, but potentially useful for storage when you don't care about efficiency.
woobniggurath
If you have excess production that you're looking to store...
woobniggurath
Plus, implementation is what makes advances in tech happen.
welluhwhatdoyouwantmetosay
Flywheels are clean, and have a high efficiency for short-term storage of energy.
NobodyIsHereAnymore
Not necessarily, my mom's house is solar with no batteries. Her average electric bill during Arizona summers is $25.
interficiabo
This is unlikely, probably using the grid as a battery and receiving credit. This does not work on a macro scale.
fowlersleftfoot
Not really. There’s plenty of sustainable alternatives to batteries when it comes to holding potential energy.
CabNumber1729
And general infrastructure to manage it. We can get there, but its not a magic bullet.
addGingerforflavor
Store it in molten salts. Properly insulated containers can retain heat to drive steam turbines when solar alone can't keep up.
WhatzitTooya
We're gonna have a real big surplus of used batteries soon enough with all those electric cars.
Tesseract09
Soon? It'll be at least another decade until you start seeing significant numbers pulled from cars, and they're expected
Tesseract09
To be recycled into fixed storage before they're actually fully recycled.
Qpnao
Yeah. That's missing from the conversation about electric cars
onecowboytoo
I am sure that the recycling process will be super environmentally friendly too.
WhatzitTooya
Depends if we actually recycle them, or send them with our other trash to indonesia where they gonna burn them in a backyard.
feawen
When a lot of people park their EV cars at work, there's there's load of batteries that could be plugged in to the grid during daylight hrs
Tesseract09
I think the tech you're thinking of is "Vehicle to Grid". Only the leaf supports it.
astrangehop
Charging 9-5 just for the driving use makes a lot of sense.
feawen
You would get cash incentives. Like owning solar/wind and selling it back to the grid. If you provide storage you get a trade off
BrickShakes
That's not entirely true, large gravity batteries could be used for this, but due to lack of interest not much testing has been done.
ChickenSnizort
https://imgur.com/t/goodnewseveryone/6dsvjXz
TheStreetForce
Theres a grav battery being used in cali since the early 1900's. They are all proven.
FortressCraft
Hydroelectric damrs are literally gravity batteries.
RagingNorseman
You can also use the electricity to pump water to a reservoir and produce hydroelectric power when it's dark.
Alphonsevaher
Need pretty specific conditions for that, two reservoirs close to one another that are also really high/low positions.
Alphonsevaher
Also has a pretty low efficiency
IntentiomalTypo
Which is great but send incredibly silly that the best way we can store energy is "drop heavy thing slow"
Chereazi
Sometimes the simple ways are the best :D Complex solutions are prone to breaking down
kindpanda
Ingenious simplicity. I always think of emergency stop signs on stop lights for when the power goes out.
ChemicalG
Which cycles back that the problem is the limitation of our current applicable battery tech, ton of promising methods but need more research
Bystandr
Gravity pumps are an established tech, as are flywheels. Chemical electrolysis and molten salt are other options, too.
[deleted]
[deleted]
BrdCdn
And water is rare to be used as a pump solution globally and flywheels are very inefficient. But hey let's plug our ears and ignore nuclear.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Chereazi
There's quite good flywheel technology already, can be used for storage already, but nobody ever talks about it... it's just batteries...
FortressCraft
NYC has a shitton of flywheel storage.
chesterthegreat
Pumped hydro!
SlimSam
Problem is that anything with too much mechanical parts isn't efficient enough for long run. Water reservoir is much more better option.
Soggybathroomsock
A magnetically suspended flywheel has one moving part, does it not?
SlimSam
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/flywheel-energy-storage-system
UnluckyLunkhead
Excess can be used to pump water back up the dams. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity
Tesseract09
Pumped storage capacity is extremely limited and low energy density.
ChickenSnizort
For that you need a suitable site. And if the site is too far away from your generator or load then transmission losses are a problem
gyzmok
which, pretty much, IS battery technology :P
JHassium
This is true, and it's used in many places, for example Denver, however, the geographical requirements are limiting for widespread use.
thewiggins
hit the nail on the head, I live on the prairies, good luck finding a spot to build something like that
BrdCdn
Also water. Damn proponents like to ignore the scale of freshwater this would take. Solar and wind only proponents have no idea of scale.
pummel5
Can be used to lift large weights up hill and generate power at will on the way down. There's heat storage too, many solutions can be built.
pummel5
Also I know it's not strictly optimal but who cares it's free power.
pummel5
https://gravitricity.com/ The issue is political only
Tesseract09
There's likely still some engineering issues to discover when building. Batteries are a known tech, so seen as a safer bet.
Colopty
Humanity could easily sit on enough power that this crazy shit is a viable option, but it makes some shareholder less obscenely rich so...
ThePickliestRick
That's my favorite part. That it makes them LESS rich. Not poor. They're still rich, but less, so it's unacceptable.
VidiVeniThenSheLeft
Someone's gotta start their own company and disrupt it, then! That's the whole idea - the world is not static
Colopty
With what starting capital? The current market leaders are making doubly sure they're the only ones with the capital to do what you suggest.
Narwhilian
Will somebody please think of the shareholders!?! /s
Thesavagehamster
Pumped storage is really elegant and sounds great but the actual material costs of setup can be quite large, and geography-dependent.
donthaveonebrojustlurk
That's why you nationalize grids. Don't tell me it can't be done - much of New York's energy comes from Northern Quebec.
Thesavagehamster
You won't find me arguing against that. Material costs and geographical constraints are best overcome through collective action.
Thesavagehamster
this isn't to say it's not a viable solution, just not a silver bullet. Add liquid salt and conventional batteries it'll have to be a mix
pummel5
I agree on it being a serious investment but it's one that will easily pay for itself and all power generation is costly to set up.