FakeNewsCanBeFun
500466
9966
498
He spent time as a professor at Harvard University, before retiring back to Canada and taking a position at Toronto U.
Recently he has found his position as professor at Toronto U put in jeopardy, due to a disruptive wave of protests. As a psychology professor, he finds it difficult to agree that biological gender should be dispensed with in favor of subjective, self-defined gender-identity. From an educational standpoint, he can not teach his material without provoking these protests.
Protests have continued on, as recent as yesterday (March 17th, 2017.) His classes are being regularly interrupted.
In a strictly practical sense, he may not be able to continue conducting his classes. The situation is to the detriment of the education of his students.
Yesterday's protest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMsi61OtkE4
This beanie wearing cuntface...
Some of you may be familiar with this issue, by extension of the protester meme'd later with the name "SmugglyPuff." After one of her assailants engaged in, and was about to be charged for violence, she went on to tell officers that she "saw nothing." Then, winking at the camera and giving the middle finger.
https://youtu.be/K-IFcCY0m3E?t=9s
This, of course, is far and away from the reality of the issue, though.
Professor Peterson is, in no exaggeration, a truly decent human being. He's devoted his life to understanding history's most undignified moments, in an effort to shed light on what underpinned them.. and to ensure they may never be repeated. His lectures on historical Nazism and Communism are absolutely riveting. The mind boggles at how anyone who spends more than 10 minutes listening to him, might accuse him of what he's being accused of.
So I thought I'd make this just to see if we can get a bit of support for the man. Honestly, though, I think anyone can benefit from listening to what he has to say. He releases most of his lectures online, and they are genuinely very entertaining. It's a breath of fresh air, with all of the social tension we've all been drowning in lately.
This is the intro video to his Youtube channel. I'll leave this here for those interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbOeO_frzvg
For something more off-the-cuff, you might enjoy the podcast he did with Joe Rogan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04wyGK6k6HE&t=1662s
In any case, I've enjoyed having his work as a regular part of my feed.
Regardless of where a person falls on the LGBTQ2 side of the issue (and please don't turn this into your own opportunity to spew nonsensical hatred in whichever direction you lean) it should be readily apparent that the events unfolding around Professor Peterson are disastrously perverted from their own intentions.
The injustice to him, aside, I think it's an even greater injustice to society if this man loses his right to educate upcoming generations.
---------
FP Edit!
I'd just ask that any further debate that people would like to have with me about the issue be directed to my inbox so we can dispense with the 140 character limit. I'm also pleasantly surprised to see that so much of the conversation was free of mud-slinging or anti-trans rhetoric. Most people seem more or less indifferent about how the next expresses their gender / sexual identity, and smart enough not to associate the inflammatory protesting with the whole of gender-ambiguous people -- which is what I'd hoped. We're all individuals first and foremost, after all
Thereisnocureforbeingacunt
It's always nice to see that Canadians can be assholes too.
Teddythewonderllama
Assholes are everywhere. Everywhere.
thedarkcanuck
I know this is inane, but it bugs me to see the school referred to as Toronto U instead of U of T
shymetrain
British Columbia U
ElinborgTheViking
Ack, you insult my ears and alma mater
Bartheda
Protest what the teachers are teaching to get out of class, why the hell didn't I think of this back in the day
SociallyConfidentButterfly
I feel bad for the students that paid to be in his class only for it to get disrupted constantly.
Candyman216
I feel bad for the people that have body parts chopped off to complete their transition and then realize it was a mistake. Hahaha, JK.
NOTAnAdminOfThisWebsite
This is NOT one of his classes at Toronto U. It was to be a panel w/ moderator about free speech at McMaster U. Everyone else chickened out.
NOTAnAdminOfThisWebsite
Including the moderator. It was a single Jordan Peterson against a loud and disruptive mob, along with some *very* patient listeners.
iJustLikePrettyStuff
that's fuckin horrible
harbors
his classes at UofT are never interrupted. He posts videos of each lecture on his youtube channel. protests are usually off campus
FakeNewsCanBeFun
Can you imagine the situation if one of those interruptions turned violent and someone were hurt though? I know everyone responsible for (1)
SociallyConfidentButterfly
I did not expect a debate after my comment O_O
FakeNewsCanBeFun
the university itself is feeling the weight of all this, in the face of a potential mishap under their supervision. (2)
VodkaReindeer
He said "never interrupted" and you respond with "... one of those interruptions". What's going on here?
howdoyoumakeatissuedanceputalittleboogieinit
.
errumrather
Warning: you have stumbled upon "agenda". Continue discussion? Y/N
TheEightfoldPath
I'd think he/she meant protests, not interruptions in that context.
FakeNewsCanBeFun
Well he was just using hyperbole; I wasn't going to nitpick, I'm assuming he means "very infrequent" which I'm glad to here honestly.
FakeNewsCanBeFun
*hear
shutyourpieholedouche
i thought never meant...ya know...never? Also you jumped to an extremist alarmist point of view. Way to go.
pancreas
outspoken liberals are too dense to care about other people. They'd rather formulate attacks against...single people apparently.
[deleted]
[deleted]
TheSpeakerOfTheHouse
There's actually vegans in the anti-SJW camp. They don't try to enlist others but mentioning them is one of their triggers.
[deleted]
[deleted]
TheSpeakerOfTheHouse
Actually, being a furry is more about getting laid, and it works, *a lot* apparently. I'd do it if I cbf but it seems like hard work.
Gayforbae
CBF?
TheSpeakerOfTheHouse
Could be fucked, can be fucked, couldn't be fucked, and the original can't be fucked. Depends on context; in this case, could.
aFadingMemory
*outspoken people. If you are affiliated with a political view and cant point to one dense jackass in your group... it's you.
pancreas
then I can say with certainty that I am not that sort of person. I do have a liberal jackass friend though. I like to be devils advocate
aFadingMemory
They definitely exist all over. As long as we can exist somewhere between Richard Spencer and Crazy SJW "Xim" there is hope.
pancreas
I know what some of those words mean...
pancreas
I know what some of those words mean...
squintish
These sort of people may call themselves liberal, but trying to suppress speech is not consistent with the liberal world view. Most (cont)
PatrikLilja
This is the North American definition of liberal. Which is the opposite of liberal.
pancreas
hence what I said about them being annoying due to hyprocrisy.
squintish
consider me quite liberal but I can't think of a bigger waste of time than protesting about pronouns. I don't know how these kids got (cont)
squintish
so focused on trivial self-absorbed crap but I feel like this might be the end result of too many participation trophies.
anthellis
I mean, last time I checked it's not like we asked or demanded for participation trophies when we were kids.
pancreas
(2)note, not all liberals are like that, but the bad ones tend to be really bad.
[deleted]
[deleted]
futuremonkey
Don't be ashamed. Fight back. Don't join the "other side". Mockery, satire, and derision are good tools. 1/
futuremonkey
There is no 2/
Gorillionare
Can't even call them liberals imo
equityforpunks
I am a liberal and hate this kind of behavior. However, I am more concerned of those peaceful liberals who tend to defend these people.
cleverbeans
The bad conservatives are worse in my opinion. They're actively murdering people in a way liberals aren't. See Adam Purinton for details.
Elroydb
Murders aren't a form of political protest though o_O
Burritoheart
the bad ones of any unregulated group tend to be really bad.
pancreas
liberals are just weird because their whole thing is about open mindedness, but they're huge hypocrites
cleverbeans
Open mindedness is not a liberal value, not should you expect liberals to be a monolithic group with uniform opinions and ideals.
Burritoheart
Every group has hypocrites. 'liberals are hypocrites' is the same bull as 'conservatives are racists'. It makes an us vs them mentality
JPre35
I agree with what you are saying.. but i personally view current liberalism similar to alt right
PrecookedEagle
I'm grateful that this gender legislation drama introduced me to Mr. Peterson. His videos are very interesting and I love the way he thinks.
AngronTheRedAngel
manskull
.
powwerbottom
Shorties and tallios
thegreatfrenchcheeses
So.. that's male. 'Ok'
TheSpeakerOfTheHouse
This is Captain Phasma:
- definitely not male.
Rannnoch
Can you not read?
ionlycommentwithgifsandpics
No! Join the TRUE White Army!
gingerbrdman
YOUAGAIN!!!! http://imgur.com/XorJlK1
AngronTheRedAngel
gingerbrdman
http://imgur.com/EyEseE4
AngronTheRedAngel
gingerbrdman
Combo breaker: http://imgur.com/mmgOJYt
RydWolf
Where your sex doesn't matter because nothing ever gets hit.
FrostMarvel
That's cool and all, but have you heard the tragedy of Darth Plageius the Wise?
FuckThisHailSatan
/r/PrequelMemes?
AngronTheRedAngel
equityforpunks
We already have a concept of "person".. I don't really understand why we would need to add more complexity instead of homogenization.
mide8
Because there actually are differences between genders. It's a meaningful distinction.
KekmateMeinFreund
pshaw, not in the empire there isn't.
OverMyDadBody
Yeah it's like you cannot refer to anyone by an adjective. Like the blonde, the tall, the skinny, the clever, the lame, he, she...
PowwerOrb13
There are differences between sexes, because sexual dimorphism, and only between those two sexes and their appropriate genders.
CausticSarcasm
I have a 11x17 printout of this in my apartment.
BababaMoooya1
For the Empire!
AngronTheRedAngel
bogbodyboogy420
HalfManHalfPants
Bring it with you when you join the empire
iJustLikePrettyStuff
and you'll get cookies
Omnissah
Where did you get a print like that from? I need it... for reasons...
usernamepolice
Agreed. Share u bastard
CausticSarcasm
@Omnissah I just brought a flash drive with the image on it to a Staples nearby. Walmart, CVS maybe, Rite Aid, Staples will print posters
Hedgehoglet
11x17 cm?
CausticSarcasm
@Hedgehoglet inches, since I'm one of those savage Americans
wexipena
Probably inches. 11x17cm is barely a postcard.
youroldfrienddarkness
11x17m would just be impressive
tribechief
*spews nonsensical hatred in the direction I lean*
KnathanTheKnight
Boooooooo!
Aguynamedcarl
RRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Bystandr
finally someone talking sense here
madcore
But... But you are doing Mike Haggar's spinning lariat while you spew...
KnathanTheKnight
He's the mayor we need.
jeppsson
The transphobes are always the bigger and louder group on imgur.
Asteroidrules
Peterson in a nutshell.
MetalSkeletal
I'm laying down. Can I just spew from that direction?
tribechief
That would be quite a sight.
TheBestRussian
Just make sure you're on your side, otherwise it'll all come right back down.
WingardiumLeviosass
That's good life advice
FloridaMansSideKick
lying*
pooplop21
Just be careful you don't choke on it.
CityYeti
*responds in a way that may seem logical, but can taken in a very bad way that starts an unending argument*
SirBrendan
*says a comment not particularly inflammatory but gets downvoted into oblivion inexplicably
ButWhyTho
This is a beautiful sacrifice to the team.
lemonyflavoredjunimo
*begins unending argument by questioning intelligence and correcting a spelling mistake*
CityYeti
*implies I'm questioning your intelligence but doesn't directly say it*
UnskippableAd
Wouldn't you spew hatred in the direction you disagree with?
stripeyface
Spew facts.
tribechief
FakeNewsCanBeFun
How dare you.
degenerator
:-) College kids garner a lot of attention while in college, but they will encounter a very different attitude once they leave school.
TheGreatBlueHeron
Well, it's what you were really after.
tribechief
Its my opinion but you are wrong if you disagree with me.
lemonyflavoredjunimo
Here is where a conversation breaks down and instead of being calm and rational, we start name calling and attacking a person's character.
waterbucketsandsparetowels
i bet you suck dicks you... uhh... ass... ear
ButWhyTho
Something something nazis.
gingerbrdman
http://imgur.com/porkeBy
LiterallyYourMom
Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. Call yourself whatever you want, but don't expect others to memorize your alphabet.
IveRegisteredThreeTimesAndKeepForgettingPleaseSendHelp
RealFuckinNito
He pretty much did too.
bardock
supa hot knowledge...he spits that
minepagan
Freedom of speech...he supports it
TheSpeakerOfTheHouse
He gonna drop some standard pronouns, they gonna have a fit
diligentimugarian
I didn't choose the lecture life, the lecture life chose me.
chaoguy2006
Where tha source, where tha source, where tha source at? Have that tenure in the cut where the grant at?
TheTearyOnion
Actually made me laugh more than it should have
MORAGON
I go to UofT and honestly those who are against him are by far the worst people ever, they invest crashed a rally to support Prof. 1/?
MORAGON
Peterson's views by shouting in their faces with megaphones and unplugging entire speaker systems for those speaking. I get that they 2/?
MORAGON
Opinions but the least they could do is be courteous in this debate and not make it an attack
LocketheAuthentic
They know what they're doing. They camped out on their "moral high ground" where everything is acceptable in the name of the cause.
TysonGoesOutside
I saw a video of people harassing him and asking baiting questions. I was immediately on his side. Glad he is a good guy after all.
CandidGamera
Society's really going down the shitter when people are proud of how easily they are manipulated.
Tunaccat
X being untrue doesn't make Y true.
HD226868
If X is the polar opposite of Y in a dichotomy, it does. 'Is 1+1=3 untrue? Yes, then 1+1=/=3 is true'.
IamNICE124
Is someone who identifies primarily as liberal, I hate when people feel compelled to ruin someone others life because they disagree w them.
NexiKuro
Link of the actual bill: http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=8609176
LocketheAuthentic
It's so easy to slip into once someone believes they have they have the moral high ground.
AAAend
As someone who is, I understand that the world moves forward on the back of the discussions had by those of different creeds.
NexiKuro
I mean, apparently he's comparing this: https://openparliament.ca/bills/42-1/C-16/ to fascism so I can get why people are angry with him.
IamNICE124
Yeah I understand why people strongly disagree w him, I definitely disagree as well. It there's a right way to go about expressing it.
Mwest555
Saw him on JRE, definitely worth checking out
tathrok
I knew there'd be some of you fuckers down here if I scrolled. What's up fuckers?!
MildlyShockedSirPatrickStewart
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night
IWasToldThereWasCake
Truly one of the best podcasts out there
AdeptusCannibus
PollyFoxing
Thanks obama
flaccidhope
deusexmacadamia
Who is that guy and why he look like Red Foreman if he was black?
gingerbrdman
http://imgur.com/cvXQxKH
jeppsson
Aparently, imgur cannot stop being triggered about it.
Cilvaa
thebeardo
Amazing
ForgivingCat
I remember the old days when there was only one gender.
pizzaontheinside
Aguynamedcarl
HeywouldJablowme
So fukken saved
CouchCarrot
*TRIGGERED*
liavr
.
xnjaymo
Lol yes
TheJewelOfJool
Motherfucker this is gold.
TangoIndiaTangoSierra
There's two sexes.
JohnFloorwalker
Forgetting intersex
CirclejerqueDuSoleil
Except intersex exists as well.
ThisIsWhatISignedUpFor
Great. And here I am having no sex.
LordOfThePenguin
azureraptor
It's more like there it ain't.
DARSKA
*there're
Klingon00
http://imgur.com/B8DLZ4G.gif
richfiles
And two genders!
egaode
Although I suppose even that is questionable given the (albeit very small) existence of intersex and chimera humans.
thecuteocalypseishere
Actually, some estimates place the frequency of intersex conditions at about the same as that of natural red hair
DoublevBomb
Conditions like Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (maleness is never switched on in males, they develop as females) is certainly a thing.
valentinevar
My bio professor told us about one of her patients - very tall and athletic woman who couldn't get pregnant and her husband complained -
valentinevar
about her having a very short vagina (only like half his penis would fit). After doing some testing they found that even though she had
valentinevar
perfect female external genitalia, she only had a 2 inch vaginal canal and instead of ovaries she had one testes deep inside.
creamyt
Looking at it from a biological standpoint, they play no "role" in the species and are rare enough to be just abnormalities, so humans (1/2)
egaode
Fair point. But I also think gender identification in the majority are 'aligned' with sex. So the whole argument is about small minorities.
creamyt
That being said...that's not how we really talk about each other or (should) treat each other. So, doesn't much matter IMO.
creamyt
are still generally considered to be a 2-sex species.
DaddySlapper
All i know is that some people have penises and some people have vaginas
catsaregroundowls
1/? And just so you know, the medical and scientific community recognizes different gender identity, just not any more biological sexes
catsaregroundowls
2/ beyond chromosome abnormalities like having an extra x or y or having x0. But I was surprised to learn that studying for the mcat.
BAM123987
Some are intersex and have a mixture, it's easier to think of gender and sex, kind of like my intelligence level, on a spectrum
MinesomeMC
shut up, they still either hack a sausage or a hot dog bun...
MinesomeMC
*have
JunWasHere
Yes but when most people talk about gender nowadays, they're not trying to officially coin pronouns for obscure sexes, are they? (1/2)
JunWasHere
No... A lot of them (not all, of course, but a lot) are just taking a collective subjective piss. (2/2)
bogbodyboogy420
What do my chromosomes tell me about my intelligence?
BIZaGoten
A mixture of a penis and a vagina? Show me.
BIZaGoten
A mixture of a penis and a vagina? Show me.
ddd0
Think of a rather large, protruding clitoris.
DaddySlapper
theyre called hermaphrodites
HighImpactSexualViolence
Just Google pornhub there are thousands of videos showing the combination of penises and vaginas.
ikbenlike
And two genders
ForgivingCat
But there's more! Use your imagination!
TheGreatBlueHeron
Booooorrrring
jeppsson
Science disagrees. But I know imgur transphobes dont care
ikbenlike
Then prove it. Also, merely identifying as another gender doesn't make you transgender, and I'm not transphobic
[deleted]
[deleted]
VoltageXL1
Do you even kow how many trans ppl also agree there are only 2 genders? It's really not even a topic that has to do with trans at all.
VoltageXL1
Sociology is not science. Also saying there are only 2 genders does not make you transphobic. You are so fucking dense.
jeppsson
Your feelings on the matter is irrelevant. That is not how science works. Go back to school, pay attention.
only90skidswillgetthis
There has historically been three genders in Thailand
DARSKA
*have
RikkordF
Actually in more places than Thailand. Romans, Hawaiin Tribes, Persia, Ottomans, ect
RikkordF
Generally speaking, the 3rd gender is almost always a male taking some 'female aspects'.
comfortableshoes
Also in Native American cultures.
TysonGoesOutside
I guess. I'm not really sure how we define gender? Is it based on sex? Or sexual preference? Or life style?
Gaidenninjacat
Gender and Sex are interchangeable and anyone that says anything different is an idiot.
BAM123987
Sex is your biological chromosomal set. Gender is what you identify as, the reason being that society determines gender/how they should act
ikbenlike
I dunno but my gender is Apache attack helicopter. More seriously , it mostly has to do with your role in every day live, probably
TysonGoesOutside
Because I'm fairly certain I'm a man... but if I liked cooking I'd still be a man. If I liked makeup I'd be a metrosexual man.. wouldn't I?
Spinbot11
It was basically interchangable with sex until all of this started and they changed the definition. Now they just add new "genders" daily.
ColbyBrooks
No it orginally did not mean sex but ppl are dumb and forget it jad a different meaning for 200 years before anyone associated it with sex.
JonathanSwiftProbablyInventedBabybackRibs
my sociology prof said that sex is the gear you're born with, gender is what you identify as
UnslicedBreadisCoolToo
This is a modern interpretation of gender, however. So you can't get upset if gender doesn't mean the same to someone else.
[deleted]
[deleted]
ikbenlike
Merely identifying as another gender (which, by the way, is officially a mental disorder) doesn't make one transphobic
ikbenlike
Merely identifying as another gender (which, by the way, is officially a mental disorder) doesn't make one transphobic
zflazeda
If identifying as a social construct is a mental disorder than we are all crazy
TangoIndiaTangoSierra
Gender is social identity. It's a social construct created by society. Sex is a scientific fact
ObnoxiousComma
2. , social aspects (correct), and cultural aspects of being male or female. To the user commenting about a third sex, yes, due to
UnslicedBreadisCoolToo
Look up the etymology of the word "gender".
Squanto229
MrMineHeads
Fukken saved
ObnoxiousComma
3. mutations, a third sex (therefore, a third "gender") can be argued. Gender cannot be chosen. Gender is used to describe & define
ObnoxiousComma
So, let's begin. Gender is not dissociated from sex. Gender is based on your sex. Gender simply describes & defines the grammatical rules
TangoIndiaTangoSierra
"Gender" was created from religion, as "naughty words" and perversion were a sin. More accurately, it was created within society to define(1
ObnoxiousComma
5. to fit their own views of what it should be.
bedsound
I've gotta be honest I've seen a lot of studies and to be frank first hand accounts that disagree with this. Trans people are some of the
bedsound
that makes someone a woman or a man and society absolutely plays a large role in it.
bedsound
hardest to understand and therefore misunderstood people that I've noticed as a demographic. It's hard for anyone to understand what it is
ObnoxiousComma
4. these mentioned topics. Modern activism has attempted to bend and in some cases, completely change the definition of "gender"
ThomasMontgomeryHaverford
If you don't like Merriam-Webster, there's also the OED: http://www.oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/77468 2/
ThomasMontgomeryHaverford
Merriam-Webster: "Gender(n): 2.b. the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex." This isn't new.
ThomasMontgomeryHaverford
And the World Health Organization: http://www.who.int/gender-equity-rights/understanding/gender-definition/en/ 3/
ILikeSciFi
Why is this being downvoted?
TangoIndiaTangoSierra
I would never hate on the professor like those assholes, and while I say grammatically, Gender is (1
Solivoid
JohnnyTitelips
Because it's incorrect.
DeadShelly
I don't think ruining his class will make him change his mind and agree to the idea of different
AnAsOfYetUnidentifiedIndividual
I don't think the people doing this care- they want to take away his power, not this opinions.
DeadShelly
Seems like they are having the opposite effect
AnAsOfYetUnidentifiedIndividual
*not his opinions Just in case that wasn't obvious to someone.
BloodyMaryBloodyMaryBloodyMary
I fully support Trans rights, but I saw a video of a protest against him a while ago, and a lot of what those people were saying was fucked.
[deleted]
[deleted]
gemmaluisa
He has a lot of trans support who are terrified of this legislation
giadrosich
As a transguy, I hate the transtrenders of today. They make us look like idiots and it's terribly harmful to people growing up that way.
JohnnyTitelips
Out of curiosity, define what you mean by "trans rights." Because that's kind of critical in this context.
B1ueKampfer
The ability to change gender marker on documents, things like hb2, and just following non discriminatory laws already in place.
JohnnyTitelips
Ah, see, because the people arguing against this guy think that "trans rights" means "people legally have to call me what I want them to."
MayonnaiseMayonnaiseMayonnaise
The "582 genders" group are a disgrace to trans imo. For ages we went against discrimination and now our work is ruined by these snowflakes
B1ueKampfer
Yep, as a trans also they are a disgrace. When u are like like this u just wanna be you not some special snowflake correcting pronouns.
B1ueKampfer
*trans person...It's early
MayonnaiseMayonnaiseMayonnaise
Many don't count them as trans, because they're not trying to change their gender, they just want attention and to be part of LGBT
Error404TrollNotFound
Do you a have a cliff notes of his arguments and reasoning for his stance? Context is lacking and I'm curious why ppl are so pissed off.
DevonGronka
There's 2 sides to every story. In this case, Peterson said people requesting others use gender neutral pronouns were subjecting every 1/2
DevonGronka
one else to slavery. That's a pretty whacked out thing to say. Dude can be smart about some things and not about others.
JohnnyTitelips
There is a bill (Bill C-16) that has been introduced to the Canadian Parliament that would make referring to someone as their (1/2)
JohnnyTitelips
non-preferred gender illegal. Partly because gender isn't just whatever someone thinks they are, and partly because of the potential (2/3)
JohnnyTitelips
detrimental effects of this law should it be passed, this psychology professor has been speaking out against the law and the logic behind it
TheManyFacedDog
That's quite a description of C-16. As you can see here: https://openparliament.ca/bills/42-1/C-16/ it ACTUALLY amends the Canadian Civil
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
VoltageXL1
Wow you are unironically a retard. Nice.
jeppsson
So he is another activist that pretends not to be? Of course imgur and the alt right loves him.
DotheBabyIsaac
His argument at its foundation is against 'forced speech'. Because the law that was proposed in CAN was not against free speech, but 1/2
DotheBabyIsaac
rather was imposed forced speech. I.e. you *must* refer to someone as a specific word/title/etc or you were breaking the law. The issue 2/4
DotheBabyIsaac
then arises of 1) any person can at any time decide what they want to be called, and if you don't refer to them as "Sir'dam Duckpants" you 3
DotheBabyIsaac
would be in violation of law. 2) He brings historical context into the debate with regard to Marxism, Fascism, forced speech and its 4/
DotheBabyIsaac
implications within a society. Very intelligent, caring and principled man, his lectures always make me think.
DrSparken
Having actually read the bill, I see *nothing* compelling speech. Literally only says you cannot discriminate based on identity/expression.
Yuppup
BBC article about him, http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37875695. Questions raised about his assertion C-16 compels speech.
DotheBabyIsaac
I mean, I could raise questions about the legitimacy of your assertion that you are not the Loch Ness monster.. would that also serve as 1/2
DotheBabyIsaac
an avenue to degrade your legitimate arguments? Case in point, ppl are allowed to question things, that doesn't make their ?'s valid tho.
Yuppup
Source for that law?
DotheBabyIsaac
It's not law yet. In CAN bill C-16 is what this debate is centered around.
Yuppup
In reading the law, do you find his assertion it's compelled speech persuasive?
Olivebirdy
https://litigationguy.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/bill-c-16-whats-the-big-deal/
DrSparken
Since these guys won't provide it, http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=8609176
Yuppup
Thanks for source. Bill's so short &simple. Felt like I was missing something. C-16 just amends list of who is protected under their Human 1
Yuppup
Rights Act & criminal code for hate speech/propaganda. As BBC quoted other U of T prof, slippery slope fallacy for compelled speech.
DrSparken
and yes, there's nothing in here compelling anything other than "quit being an asshole to trans people."
Yuppup
To promote the civil discourse of these issues, how abt "let's treat people with dignity regardless of gender identity or gender expression
FourOrangeCircles
These people are accusing him of being a bigot, which is untrue; he takes issue with the laws *compelling* speech of any kind, which 1/3
Yuppup
Source for law?
zflazeda
While I literally don't have a hoot about these made up pronouns, it's worth noting how he can't empathize with people who've had to adhere
zflazeda
-to made up pronouns themselves. "Ze, zir, zher," and the many others are a lot less confining than just the binary "he/she". Albeit...
zflazeda
just too complicated a concept for a busy society that likes things out of their field to be clear and simplified
zflazeda
If he really didn't believe in forced speech. Does he not see how confining people to "he/she" speech is more damaging than varying genders?
FourOrangeCircles
in this case, happen to be made up pronouns, like ze, zir, zher, etc. He's said he will gladly refer to any person as whatever gender 2/3
FourOrangeCircles
they present, regardless of their biological sex. The problem with all the made up genders is that he now has to "play their game." 3/3 +1
FourOrangeCircles
and is automatically at a disadvantage in any social encounter. He thinks this is a step too far
Yuppup
Have you read the law?
StooperDave
Hes not wrong. No one in the real world gives a shit about ze/zir what ever bullshit. makes you sound like a meth-head.
Error404TrollNotFound
To be fair, ppl that get upset by pronouns are out there looking for reasons to get upset. Its just unfortunate they landed on this guy.
woodjoiner
How are protesters in the classroom not arrested for disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace? Is Canadian law that different from the US?
[deleted]
[deleted]
redstoneage
lol, the thought of Toronto police being anti sjw protesters is laughable. They'll be able to do whatever they want.
DewiRubius
Thank you! They should???? Not only that. This group is also disrupting the learning of other students in the class who have nothing to do w
woodjoiner
The question marks that you used, read like you don't think the classroom disruptors should be stopped.
Virq
No one enforces our laws. Feel bad for students who paid money to go to school having the experience taken from them.
Derplord
Uhm - the US have such laws? UC Berkley made me think otherwise.
Jewf
They aren't arrested in the US either at colleges
dadecorban
Have you seen what is happening at US universities?
evildrcatfish
Security in colleges tends to be held back by other faculty in events like this, such as it was with Milo's speeches.
MalthusAndreusDrake
yes, canadian right to free speech/assembly -> protest; protects them in this situation.
ElinborgTheViking
I think campus security would be called before police. But you can "disrupt" a class and leave in the time it takes for security to arrive
ElinborgTheViking
So he could have security follow him, but it takes seconds to disrupt. I'm in no way supporting this disruptive behaviour, btw
Bystandr
It is unlawful and in fact he could have them arrested. Ive seen a few people hauled off campus for 'protesting' or just being vagrants.
Bystandr
He must be allowing it to some degree
woodjoiner
If true, Damn that is love of free speech.
Bystandr
Agree and kudos to him to endure it in a civil manner
somethingofsomething
Are you kidding me? Or law system is pretty flawed. People get of way to easy in some cases.
woodjoiner
I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?
LordZipp
Many places in Canada don't have the right to freedom of speech and this professor did a few debates about it
woodjoiner
What kind of places? Is it specific towns, military bases, or prisons?
samepiceverydaytillFP
Because LGBT shit crowd gets special privileges. Look at Bradley Manning. Fuck them
spookyu
Furthermore, I feel bad for those who spent tuition to listen to a professor, not protestors.
CandidGamera
Ah, the good old "Your freedom ends where my feelings begin" whining. .. Hey wait, aren't we accusing the OTHER side of that?!
LGNDAllan
God I hope it is if you arrest protestors. Wow.
twozerooz
It isnt that simple when the disruptions are for protesting
iilloovveeiimmgguurr
Was thinking the same. Good post OP. Why can't people just accept we all have different views. Geezus. Also.. Please don't hate me.. But..
iilloovveeiimmgguurr
If you're a trans woman.. Shouldn't you identify yourself as a woman then? And if you're a trans man.. A man? Maybe that's his point.
Solivoid
, it's not something that you can properly accomplish in public, or want to. But that's only limited to trans peeps.
Solivoid
When it comes to trans peeps, this is a matter which confuses me, as far as I know, the matter of being 'trans' is a very particular ritual,
ilovevanhalen
They're trans until it isn't fashionable anymore. I feel like it's a fad stemmed from actual trans people bc special snowflakes 1/2
ilovevanhalen
But I'm not saying trans started it, it just became "cool" to be trans bc these snowflakes are socialugly rejects of society who are pansies
ilovevanhalen
At my work, the people who come & go; it was like one day every other person was a new gender, a year later most now consider themselves
FiveShiftOne
That is what they do. Other people try not to allow them to, which is where the whole thing becomes a problem.
clownfarts
I see so people are stopping them from identifying as the gender they want? Orrr are they demanding others use speech they prefer. big diff.
judgemasterven
Asking people to refer to them as he or she is not a demand, and doesn't really put anyone out, either.
skoomaddict
Like, if someones fuck ugly theyre fucked. But if they're fuck ugly with the wrong genitalia they're special. Insensitive yeah but pc=cancer
skoomaddict
The people who are upset just want some law to be put in place making them better than the rest of the population. Thats the only end tothis
humaneffigy
The tards will grow into voters and must be pandered to.
HomelessJesus
They should be expelled
mfgcolour
it's trespassing if they do it anywhere on campus
noctynight
It's because nobody wants to be presented as "the bad guy." Whenever you stand up to a protest representing a minority group, you're "evil."
imnotinprisonhidingaphoneinmybutt
Could you simplify it anymore?
Aumpa
But there are rules about protesting. It's supposed to be peaceful and not too disruptive.
DarkKrieg
How do minorities work? If I'm part of a smaller minority do I win? If so, could I then get away with stopping them?
shooter45
Except this is not representing a real minority group.
Tassyr
When they lawyer up, the result is the same.
OriginalDannyVasquez
They're a mentally ill group who are being passively oppressed. Which is the same as believing that a glass of water is trying to drown you.
DarkKrieg
or that cakes are out to make you fat.
somethingofsomething
Welp I messed that up, our*
woodjoiner
I know that, but "I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?"
samtotallybonedfrodoatsomepoint
The sjw problem here in Toronto is ridiculous being that our prime minister is their queen.
Dingiercupid
Trudeau is a joke
TheGreyGryphon
The "sjw" problem you're making up. Don't forget you're on the losing side of history.
samtotallybonedfrodoatsomepoint
1/ Every group of idealist dipshits thinks they're on the "right side" of history... a two minute google search will show you these people
samtotallybonedfrodoatsomepoint
2/ interrupt university sanctioned lectures because they offend them... they are dragging education backwards and it's obvious
CuntyBastard
If the right side of history involves bullying and harassing people for what they say/think, I'm perfectly okay with being on the wrong side
TheGreyGryphon
Oh please. Poor you. The LGBT community can only put up with so much bullying and harassing before they fight back. This guy is a crackpot.
cutebytes
I have absolutely no idea, after reading this, what on earth the problem could be.
Alphahi
Remember the whole civil rights movement? That makes police hesitant to stop any protest.
SLTWWS
Your desire to deploy the tactic of arrests is disturbing.
goodrobman
Nah we don't really care that much. People wanna come in then whatever, dude loves it anyways. it's just another conversation
StarryNightsInCanada
How are students getting in?? It's a school, no one should be in classes other than registered students. For safety reasons
vauhtihirmu
In Finland all university lectures are public because we consider civilization to be a common good. Maybe it's the same in Canada?
vauhtihirmu
Plus its not a school, it's a university, a center for studying, bettering people and society and our knowledge of them.
WannieTheSane
I don't know what you mean? I went to a Cdn U not quite a decade ago. Doors aren't locked or anything, it's a giant open campus.
ha09du
University campuses are (in my experience in Ontario) generally public places. Anyone can enter majority of buildings, incld. lecture halls
JacobTheSquid
I'm a student at McMaster where he was (Quite rudely) protested yesterday. You can walk in to basically any lecture.
fatherwithoutkids
Mac grad reporting in.
blueberrycupcakes
I've been in my sister's lectures on UfT and nobody cared. You can attend any class you like imo but can't write tests
CaffeineAddiction246
I'm a high school student. I've visited my bf's campus and gone to classes w/ him. Even raised my hand, helped kids w/ work, it's not hard
GNiko
In Finland, it's permissible for anyone to attend university lectures. Not just students.
DontBeSheep
College is different most of the time, too big, too many people
InsertTrollHere
You know how hard it would be to check 200 people per class when theres a like 40 classes going on at a time? Its not like its a high school
jery007
When I was in Uni -10 years ago in Montreal - I often wandered into random lectures in Between classes.
InsertTrollHere
In winnipeg its still the same thing so iunno. Itd be hard to stop
StarryNightsInCanada
Hey. Montrealer here. Things have changed big time nowadays. That's why I'm so surprised
ollag
Not really, I'm at Concordia Uni in Montreal, and I can still wander into any class anytime. Even after last month's bomb threat.
SkiMaskThePlumpGod
I can sit in on most classes without the professors caring here in the US. If it's SRO or a test day then it's a no-no.
miprola
Maybe in the USA, because almost every person there is to be considered armed and dangerous. In the rest of the first world, other rules app
miprola
ly. It's not only Canada, here in Germany there are no such strong restrictions either.
StarryNightsInCanada
I'm Canadian
mjmjuh
I like cheese
amoeba15
In US universities anyone can walk in and sit in on a class. No locked doors unless you have a professor who's overly anal about attendance.
freezingpilot
Doors are not locked, you can come and go into classrooms, but generally you try not to make a huge racket/disturbance when you do.
StarryNightsInCanada
What I'm wondering is if these protestors are other students or the public? Public should not be allowed in classrooms(school shootings etc)
magulagie
TBH that's less of a risk in Canada. At my university anyone could go anywhere on campus
StarryNightsInCanada
It may be less of a risk here in Canada. But it's still happens. École Polytechnique massacre. Other ones across Canada. It happens
murphygriffen
You do know about the Montreal massacre, right? Definitely not as frequent as the states but not unprecedented
goodrobman
Does the US not have laws against getting shot in convenience stores? Does it still happen?
woodjoiner
Not when a cop is standing there looking at it and not doing anything.
Takeitdeeeep
Seriously? I'm guessing your trying to start "that" argument
Igotthisguys
To be honest it's not a bad thing, brings more light to his arguments and educates people far from his classroom
woodjoiner
Some of the videos look to be emotionally rough on him. I don't know how he handles it so well. He's always turning the other check.
Igotthisguys
I wouldn't know about him if it wasn't for these sjw's
clownfarts
Maybe he would rather just conduct his classes than be famous.
VigorousButtstuff
They're not being enforced, because LEOs are afraid to spark more "OMG RIOT COPS" bullshit stories.
RobertNAdams
(1) lol no, they DGAF about that. They're either told to do it or not & follow orders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUHZ98RSY88
RobertNAdams
(2/2) Antifa arrested in that case, but not in the UC Berkley Riots. Rumor is the mayor told them to stand down because he hated the speaker
Catfactory
2/2 The response I linked is an overview of Peterson's more controversial views and a critical assessment of them with citations.
Thenakedman90
yeah, that source is pretty bias...
Catfactory
1/2 It's not "biased", it's a critical argumentative review that wears its purpose and conclusions on its face.
Catfactory
2/2 Just because a review isn't favourable doesn't mean it isn't accurate or informative.
Catfactory
1/2 A response: medium.com/@sean.m.smith.is/some-thoughts-on-gender-free-speech-and-the-ethics-of-public-discourse-83695a76791f#.xmn48hhfc
skoomaddict
Yeah the link goes nowhere
Catfactory
If you copy and paste it into the url bar it goes to a blog post examining Peterson's position.
Whywouldyoudothat452
Not even a quarter through and the author is already attempting to argue that Peterson is putting lives at risk by defending his point.
Whywouldyoudothat452
So much for a rational, critical assessment of the situation.
Catfactory
1/2 His comment there isn't hyperbolic. He's saying that when you debate whether human rights apply to group x you prima facie legitimize
Catfactory
2/2 the position that they don't. He doesn't accuse Peterson of risking people, just of being heedless to the fact that they're at risk.
skoomaddict
Explain why theyre at risk. Please. How does one become "at risk"?
Catfactory
When people make threats against you in a context where people like you have been injured by people who make threats like that.
Whywouldyoudothat452
He absolutely does accuse Peterson of putting people at risk. That's why they spent a whole paragraph explaining why they are justified 1/2
Whywouldyoudothat452
2/2 in "legitimizing" the debate, despite the risk doing so poses to peoples' lives.
[deleted]
[deleted]
HitlersRupturedColon
Ahh good old [deleted]. Definitely a great response.
FakeNewsCanBeFun
There was an error about which law might be used to cover misuse of a person's pronouns. I felt obligated to correct it, since it was (1)
FakeNewsCanBeFun
getting a great deal of positive responses despite being incorrect. Seemed better than just letting it continue (2)
HitlersRupturedColon
Well you can thank the asshole who deleted his comment for helping my comment rise.
DavidBrooker
No we haven't. Bill C-16 does no such thing.
TheLighthouseSavage
What does it do?
DavidBrooker
Bill C-16 adds gender expression to the list of groups protected by Canada's hate speech laws. However, those laws to not cover things 1/2
DavidBrooker
like epithets, insults or (in this case) pronouns. In practice, to be prosecuted for hate speech you must advocate for violence. 2/2
ererr
Fuck "incorrect pronouns". People need to stop spreading g the mental issues and grow the fuck up.
rodrigosanchez
no kidding. if you have a problem with a professor, quit paying for the class. let the economy choose who teaches.
lukas9356
That still does not void disorderly conduct
erik4556
What did he say?
ImLyingToYouGuys
.
woodjoiner
He talked about a law that might have made it illegal to not refer to someone with their preferred pronoun but he was refuted and accepted.
leroy666
No! No! No! No! That is not remotely close to true!
FakeNewsCanBeFun
For the record here, I was incorrect about hate speech law extending to the use of one's pronouns. It's hate-"crime" law that holds the (1)
Nooneinfamous
It's nice to see someone owning their mistake and making an effort to correct it!
FakeNewsCanBeFun
If a person is more strongly aligned with their narrative than the truth, they're only hurting themselves. ;) Besides, I'm far from perfect
FakeNewsCanBeFun
ambiguity where one might be accused of a committing an "offence" motivated by bias against a person(s) gender. (2)
FakeNewsCanBeFun
Hate-"speech" law deals only with advocation of violence such as genocide. Hate-"Crime" law deals with any other "offence." Whether that (3)
causality
"Hate speech" laws are always the first step on the road to censorship.
FakeNewsCanBeFun
extends to pronouns, is still a matter of question. The law doesn't explicitly state whether or not pronoun use can be considered harassment
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
I feel like I've had this conversation dozens of times at this point. Are you willfully misunderstanding? I'll explain. 1
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
Bill C-16 DOES involve the criminal code, but in terms of hate crime protections. That means that criminal behaviors such as 2
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
This means you cannot refuse to hire, discriminate on pay, or fire people for their gender identity. Does THIS seem unreasonable to you? 8
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
been added to a list of other protected factors i.e. sex/creed/etc. that means you cannot discriminate on the basis of gender identity. 7
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
The other element of C-16 involves the federal government and businesses under federal jurisdiction. In this case gender identity has 6
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
and so on and so forth. The misuse of pronouns does not and will NEVER meet the Canadian standard of hate crimes. If you are deliberately 4
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
advocating advocating genocide or the public incitement of hatred. This already applies to race, language, color, religion, sex, age, 3
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
I genuinely don't know how you can read anything about C-16 and subvert the legalese so deeply as to classify pronoun misuse as hate crime.9
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
advocating mass violence against trans or non-binary individuals, however, you will be prosecuted. Does that seem unreasonable to you? 5
FakeNewsCanBeFun
C-16 seeks to add "gender identity and expression" to section 718.2(a)(i) of the Criminal Code. Which is fine, if identity and expression(1)
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
I'm really excited to hear how amending hate crime laws for advocating for mass violence and genocide against trans people is unreasonable.
FakeNewsCanBeFun
First of all, take a step back and calm down please. Trans people, and gender identity/expression are two different things.
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
I'll just wait while you furiously google C-16 and try to figure out why it's such a liberal scourge on Canadian life as we know it.
FakeNewsCanBeFun
were definable things. When gender identity is as fluid and subjective as it is, in it's current state (unlike race, sex, orientation (2)
FakeNewsCanBeFun
it inevitably means that people in gender fluid categories are able to skew their "identity" to meet the criteria of the accused (3)
egaode
I don't agree that sexual orientation is any more or less fluid than gender identity.
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
I'm also super, super excited to hear about how you believe how misuse of pronouns under the law amendment will rise to hate speech reqs.
DavidBrooker
eg: calling a black man the n-word does not qualify as hate speech in Canada. The idea that misgendering someone would is laughable.
[deleted]
[deleted]
CptRobotNinja
Holy shit I had no idea
DavidBrooker
Probably because it's not true.
DavidBrooker
Ontario's social justice tribunals do things like settle landlord-tenant disputes, and compensate the families of murder victims. 1/2
DavidBrooker
Associating what is basically a tribunal for family and housing law with the internet 'social justice movement' is wildly misleading. 2/2
dryerlint777
It has the power to be a tribunal. That matters.
woodjoiner
Wow, I didn't realize that ridiculousness actually was made a law. I thought it was just a wild campus idea not going anywhere. Sorry.
DavidBrooker
It hasn't. No such law exists, and OP is mischaracterizing the tribunals.
DavidBrooker
Bill C-16 DOES exist, but it does nothing like what either Prof. Peterson nor what OP suggests.
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
bans federal institutions or institutions under federal jurisdiction from discriminating on pay/hiring for gender identity. 2
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
It wasn't. @OP never read shit about C-16. It adds advocating genocide of trans/non-binary people to the hate speech laws. It also 1
Kittenswithasteamedcoat
Most provinces already had these protections before this federal law was finally passed. It's nothing new. 3
equityforpunks
That just sounds making witch hunting legal again.. wtf canada? Any sources for this?
DavidBrooker
Bill C-16 adds gender expression to the list of groups protected by Canada's hate speech laws. It does not make the use of pronouns 1/2
DavidBrooker
or any other insult or epithet illegal. To be prosecuted under Canadian hate speech laws, you have to advocate violence. Moreover, the 2/3
Dewgonglongdong
That's a bit Orwellian to be honest
redstoneage
As a more classical liberal/centrist libertarian I've noticed a lot of the left is sounding more and more Orwellian.
Dewgonglongdong
I'm sort of a centrist myself and I'd have to agree. With safe space censorship and calls for recounts when they don't get their way
MyFavoritesAreNice
"Social Justice Tribunal" sounds like something from 1984.
GiveMeYourDownSyndromeVotes
Wow, after reading this Canada doesn't sound too much better off then the US right now
erik4556
What did he say?
ImLyingToYouGuys
.
woodjoiner
He talked about a law that might have made it illegal to not refer to someone with their preferred pronoun but he was refuted and accepted.
MrTay
I've watched his videos and debates. He is incredibly smart and captivating. To bad he tries to use logic on people who don't care.
DothWhatSheHathSaid
^. his YouTube is simply the best. he posts whole lectures and the standard bedroom streams. 10/10
MrTay
Yeah I just found his podcast nine episodes pumped to learn about Russia in the 1920-1960s
iGoAwayButWeAreTwoOfSoul
Saw him debating live months ago, it's insane how much respect & care he showed vs the inflammatory crowd antagonizing him
override367
The shitty thing is this guy would probably LOVE an honest debate
QuasarsAndBlazars
If Irc he actually offered to host a public debate and forum with people to discuss these issues, but it never happened
Douk1
I remember he offered to debate anyone from the law school but no one came forward
WhyAreYouASmugBellend
He's so fucking clever & he topics he speaks about are fascinating. See his stuff outside of the SJW story. His videos on perceived reality.
n00barbpie
He uses rhetoric much more than logic. That's why he's so captivating.
OcelotMatrix
They are not mutually exclusive.
CandidGamera
Pragmatically they mostly are. But please, keep going with simplistic truisms, make you seem really deep, man.
Galactasaur
My only experience with him is Sam Harris podcast and he sounded like a complete idiot. What should I watch to change my mind
n00barbpie
Nah you got the right idea. His political views are pretty asinine, because he studied history of gulags he's been skewed far right.
FakeNewsCanBeFun
They did another one just recently, because of the interlocking on the concept of "truth" in the first debate. The thing with Harris is (1)
FakeNewsCanBeFun
that he's a bit too willing to acknowledge self evident truths without recognizing the subjectivity of truth itself. Peterson tried (2)
FakeNewsCanBeFun
to illustrate the problem, but Harris quickly moved to pull Peterson's notion of truth out (which of course was equally indefensible.) (3)
FakeNewsCanBeFun
Peterson kept going, trying to say "in the absence of truth, you must decide - and gave a darwinian model because it's the one that (4)
IWasToldThereWasCake
Yeah he doesn't come off well in those talks. As a huge fan of Sam Harris myself, this guy is really worthwhile
MrTay
Joe rogans podcast
MrTay
Episode 877 I think.
Flixster
Same. I agree with Peterson's stance regarding political correctness, but that Sam Harris podcast was painful to listen to.
Flixster
I'm talking about the newer one, btw, where Sam took a more passive role and just let Peterson ramble. It was awful.
Galactasaur
I agree. It was only slightly better. Sounded like pseudo intellectualism to me. But apparently people love him.
n00barbpie
Nah you got the right idea. His political views are pretty asinine, because he studied history of gulags he's been skewed far right.
Sprixxen
I'm w/ him against compelled speech. I am not w/ him when he suggests he would fail to use them/they if asked politely by a student.
MrTay
He has stated that he has no problem calling people by he/she. It's when it's compelled and the wolf kin and other made up pronouns.
Sprixxen
He's mixed on the matter from what I've watched. But if that's true then good on him. I agree 100% then.
Sprixxen
Or if he uses he/him and the student says "actually I'm a woman". Would he change? Would he say "Well, what's your biological sex?"
clownfarts
So in other words you want it both ways & are indecisive? You support the freedom to choose language but not his right to exercise it? -_-
Sprixxen
No he has a right to use whatever speech he likes. He'll still be a dick if he refuses a polite request though for established pronouns.
clownfarts
So people have a right now to not be offended by the speech of others? You don't see a very big problem with the direction this is going?
Sprixxen
No. Didn't say that. I don't believe preferred pronouns are rights and not using them isn't hate speech. It's just a decent thing to do.
Sprixxen
E.G. If someone says "Use he/him instead of she/her please". If someone says "Use xe/xed" fuck em. That's not established language.
clownfarts
The problem is this is Fabianism if you haven't noticed. There is always going to more.
Rystefn
Or: Compelling speech is bullshit. Refusing a simple and polite request is being an asshole.
clownfarts
So the legislation they are trying to get passed to legally punish people for not doing so is not compelling speech?
Sprixxen
No it is. It's not that hard to get. I am against laws compelling speech. I am not against social pressure though.
Fahargo
Yes it is being an asshole. But the government has no buisness dictating that they have to use speech as requested by someone else.
Rystefn
Yeah, that's what I said.
IamAMON
So now there's a 2 on the LGBTQ? What the fuck is it now?
Kimozabi
Omg, how dare you? I'll have you know that it's LGBTQ2AIP now... I think.
itsyaboyDC
2...2 legit to quit.
reid2048
2 fast 2 furious
Comicgamer
Loose Lesbians
madjo
It's mainly used in Canada, and seems to mean two-spirited: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/LGBTQ2
JohnnyTitelips
It's LGBT. I refuse to extend it with every new flavor of the month.
clownfarts
They all got together and decided they were discriminating against numbers by not including them in their acronym.
Ishwulf
It doesn't even matter anymore.
iamkarlpilkington
Oh I'm fucking sick of this shit..!
ImAShittyTransAm
It's not a "new" thing though. It's existed since before European colonization as a North American native thing... (And it still is)
basilmemories
same, why do people outside the queer community gotta get their boxers in a twist? people are gonna have the names that fit them. 1/2
basilmemories
If you get it wrong, say you're sorry and correct it. (also no, we don't know what the fuck is with the acronym these days either)
theresgarlicinthatnebula
There there, it'll be okay.
Comicgamer
I have many friends that are L, G or B but I just don't get the T or Qs being lumped together.
RosegoldEverything
I figure it's because they're all non-standard sexuality/gender things.
Zuppaiaia
Because it's a question of rights and recognising.
TotallyNotYourTeacher
Not because they're the same, but rather because they have been on the end of the same types of mistreatment and laws for a long time.
[deleted]
[deleted]
JohnnyTitelips
No it wasn't. It was a drag queen.
ImAShittyTransAm
Appears either my memory or source was faulty. However, the general point still stands.
Haneuleun
Marsha was NOT trans.
nameisunavailable
seems like they add a new letter every month
basilmemories
It's because "queer" is a loaded term, but it's also the more academic. so lgbtq/mogai came out for something more official. 1/2
thegreatandpowerfulkawa
...Mogwai? What?
Falos
But will he make it in time to stop Frieza? Tune in next week to find out, in the next episode of LGBZ.
SasjaSmolderslikesyourdog
It's an additional gender identity that some indigenous peoples had before European colonization, genocide and assimilation.
17achitturi
bit off topic, but what happened to the natives wasn't genocide. genocide has to be systematic, and 99% of them died via foreign diseases
ImAShittyTransAm
Some of which were intentionally spread, like the smallpox laced blankets. It was genocide, buddy.
SasjaSmolderslikesyourdog
what Europeans did to what was left of them afterwards was genocide. Also cultural genocide, like here in Canada with residential schools.
Jugarnath
what is making people like this ? is it pollutants in the environment ?
Mimsey
I've said it at least a dozen times now and it gets downvoted every time: These are students. Their professors are making them like this.[1]
Mimsey
When I took Gender Studies more than half the class was this kind of cultist, especially the professor. [2]
Mimsey
Which is why EVERY Feminist should take Gender Studies. If more self-declared Feminists DID they probably wouldn't identify with them. [3]
Mimsey
I know because I was a feminist until I sat through a semester of being talked over and vilified. [4]
FreeHandBrain
I believe humans by nature have a primal fire inside, and without any truly life threatening struggles, they aim it at smaller grievances.
Strongharbour432
After we stopped worrying so much about finding food for the next hour, we started worrying about our nail colour more
astroleg
It's the fluoride in the water
ytterbium
Lack of morality in media. Despising of moderate common values and flooding with exaggerated, utopian ideals. Teaches people seek sensation.
Shoutrr
take a mental illness/fragility, and try to make the world adapt to it instead of trying to cure it. Shift responsibilities to others.
Burritoheart
They are 17-20 year olds, eager to fight, protest, and be part of movements.
Jugarnath
they should be part of the movement to attend class, respect the lecturer, study hard, do their coursework & engage in healthy recreation
Mushroombadger
They're putting chemicals in the water that are turning the youths freaking anti intellectual!
Housebroken
Let's calm down there Alex, next you're gonna be talking about gay frogs
RealFuckinNito
Nah, humans are cunt by nature, never punish a child and you'll have a very entitled adult in a few years.
Calistrasza
Zero accountability. We've spent the last 40 years or so, as a species, teaching our children that everything is always someone else's fault
odraencoded
A complete and total lack of substance. People without skills or knowledge will seek purpose in whatever is easy to validate their existence
Mimsey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School Modern humanities are technically a branch of postmodern theory tinged with marxism.
Mimsey
So there is no objective reality to these people. Everything is some kind of construct. Feelings and lived experiences trump objectivity.[2]
Mimsey
And all of society is conflict. Us vs Them. Rich vs Poor. Men vs Women. Black vs White vs Hispanic vs Asian. [3]
Mimsey
And these issues are viewed through a revolutionary lense with an inclination towards radical reforms. [4]
Mimsey
They see the civilization as a series of balances weighing against each other and their duty is to put their weight on the weaker ones. [5]
Mimsey
https://youtu.be/iARHCxAMAO0 When the feminists protesting Warren Farrell's talk on boy suicide they said their professors sent them.
NexiKuro
Someone comparing a bill that would include gender/gender identity as something you can't discriminate against to governmental overreach. 1
NexiKuro
2/2 Because that's what's happening, he's turning a fairly benign bill into his Alamo. https://openparliament.ca/bills/42-1/C-16/
maltbrew
My guess, something like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3fse0y/til_violent_crime_in_the_us_and_europe_was_at_its/
booneht
What makes them is the ease with which they can be relevant in present days.Have internet, record with phone, yt it,wait for more idiots 1/2
booneht
like you to pile up and try to be significant. Then the internet with blow it out like a wildfire. 2/2
PooPooSpaghetti
Too much freedom. Gulags would fix them up right away.
FakeNewsCanBeFun
A fear of being labelled bigoted, a shame and rejection of their own human nature that IS bigoted, rather than understanding of why.
FakeNewsCanBeFun
It's easier to join mob-driven condemnation of something, than to recognize it in yourself and face it. That's why you see such hypocricy
Mixelphlick
There's a whole pile of assumption here. Which is sad to me because on the whole your post seemed evenhanded
FakeNewsCanBeFun
Well first in the pile, is the assumption that he's talking about people like SmugglyPuff.. for whom I think I'm giving a somewhat overly(1)
FakeNewsCanBeFun
fair shake. I could of just said "because she's a rotten soulless little troll" which also would have been fair, but not as sympathetic. (2)
RiddlingVenus0
"Fat is a label and I'm against labels, you cis scum" shrieks the feminist as she spews labels.
TheBestRussian
Failure to exercise brain and thought processes and thinking they're special and their opinions matter, no matter how poorly thought out.
TheJudgeHasItBackwards
A whole gerneration that has been taught they were all special, without achievement or acomolishment, where everyone gets a trophy.
zFUBARz
Except that pretty much every study shows that's those things don't create those problems at all. And in fact fix many others. 1/2
zFUBARz
And generally Millennials are more cynical than any generation since WW2 and realize they are worthless to the decision makers. 2/2
Kamasu0Tra
*A whole generation was raised by a bunch of sad losers that needed their children to be special snowflakes.
TheJudgeHasItBackwards
No disagreement from me on that. My parents went out of their way to make sure I only felt special when I earned it. I love them for it.
woodjoiner
The video #4 shows that little troll in the background watching the what she said she didn't see. Is it legal to lie to a cop in Canada?
getmepicturesofspiderman
I know in the UK she could be tried for obstructing the course of justice.
Tywinning
Even if it's not illegal, the smug little shit kept saying "I didn't see anything officer". Well so fucking what, it's on camera
TheBestRussian
I believe there was a post on FP a while ago showing her get arrested in relation to these events.
FakeNewsCanBeFun
I don't know. Last time I saw her was in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8ymEPh-ATc&t=37s largely getting positive media
woodjoiner
The phrases she uses are consistent if she did the act or someone in her group did it to "raise awareness". Whoever painted that did bad.
candiduscorvus
It's not illegal to lie to a cop in the US, for example. It's only illegal to lie under oath, which is perjury.
IamMelonLordeYaYaYa
obstruction is a thing
JohnnyTitelips
Yeah, but lying doesn't necessarily lead to obstruction, and even if it does, good luck proving it in most cases.
TigerswilldoANYTHINGforatunafishsandwich
It's on video though, is that really not enough to hold her accountable?
JohnnyTitelips
No, I mean in general. Not this case specifically.
vowofloudness
If the lie is used to hamper an investigation it could very well be criminal obstruction of justice in the US. Maybe "perverting" in Canada?
woodjoiner
[goes to SJW job interview in the US] "What is this about you being a convicted pervert?"
JohnnyMaverick
Uh, that's not true at all. If an officer questions you, and you lie, that's making a false statement. Obstruction of Justice. However, 1/2
candiduscorvus
Obstruction of justice is one of those things that happens on Law and Order but not irl.
JohnnyMaverick
This instance wouldn't be worth the time to prosecute. It'd be nice to see her called out, she was clearly trying to bait the blonde 2/2
DepartmentofAlternateFacts
she was latter arrested for something else i believe
petrie911
Theft and assault, in fact.
woodjoiner
That is too bad that she got away with, what I would consider, interfering with a police investigation.
DepartmentofAlternateFacts
apparently the cop fucked up and didnt submit the video, the court didnt even know there was one.
AussieMadHatter
She was arrested for assulting someone, even tho she demands to be identified as male for some reason turned up to court as a woman
RealFuckinNito
Statistics: knowing them helps.
clownfarts
How convenient.
rando53
Probably because she thought the court would go easier on a woman.
TheTwoRaptorsYouDidntEvenKnowWereThere
pussypass activated
petrie911
She wouldn't be wrong.
dartron5000
Well it's canada they go easy on anyone. You get a few years for murder.
Monkeyscribed
Not true.
ThisIsCanadaWinterIsAlwaysComing
That's blatantly wrong if it's not a joke
Catfactory
He's a good prof, has some good things to say, but he sometimes shoots himself in the foot by making obvious mistakes.
Catfactory
He should never have widely misrepresented the law, nor should he embrace melodrama when that's exactly what he accuses his critics of.
f4ble
Peterson: Nietzsche gets a bad rep because he was a brilliant man in a miserable existence of course he would have negative passages. 1/2
f4ble
2/2 By that you could say that when Peterson's entire career is threatened and attacked from all fronts of course he wouldn't be at his best
Catfactory
The errors I mention came before he was 'attacked', like his extraordinary misunderstanding of the law.
SomeCrazyNerd
The bill uses a definition provided bh the human right commission that references pronouns . Therefore somewhat accidentslly it could be.
Catfactory
2/2 on what is a relatively obvious point. Due diligence on his part would be to ask an expert if he were still unsure what it meant.
equityforpunks
For him this seems to be philosophical problem. That there shouldn't be any laws that require you to speak in certain way.
Catfactory
That's another misunderstanding of his: the law doesn't require anyone to use specific words, pronouns or not.
Catfactory
Many legal scholars have come out saying Peterson's view is nonsense. He continued to hold it even after being corrected 1/2
Olivebirdy
It's not positively a misrepresentation. He started this whole thing as an experiment to see how bad it was, to see if he would be punished.
Catfactory
He said the law was x, it wasn't, he was told it wasn't, and he still said the law was x. That's paradigm misrepresentation.
Olivebirdy
The Ontario Human Rights Commission would disagree. Renu Madhame said that misgendering is discrimination. So does Brenda Cossman.
Catfactory
1/2 Brenda Cossman disagrees with Peterson's assessment: sds.utoronto.ca/blog/bill-c-16-no-its-not-about-criminalizing-pronoun-misuse/
Catfactory
2/2 The OHRC decides cases on the facts: www.ohrc.on.ca/en/questions-and-answers-about-gender-identity-and-pronouns
AnonymousHamster
I call bullshit. In psychology we know the difference between biological SEX and psychological GENDER.
ChristopherKostyshyn
Which is why many people find him problematic, outside of the obviously vocal smugglypuff merry band of assholes.
MoldyCheeseburgers
LoL Maybe cause not everybody in the field agrees numbnuts
WhySoSirius
Gender isn't just psychological- it's cultural. Not all cultures have two genders
jfd8u438fdsfkds
Sex is your genes. Gender is what society expects of you. Transgender is bending to society's stereotypes instead of being yourself.
Lilshadow48
Oh. So you're spouting the "social construct" bullshit?
OcelotMatrix
Being yourself? So suicide? Because that is the default for many at risk trans youth.
JohnnyTitelips
OcelotMatrix
Drama?
JohnnyTitelips
Drama.
TitaTitanium
What?
dietderpsy
Psychology often gets hammered for lacking scientific credibility, I love psychology but in my opinion psychology is far less scientific
dietderpsy
than neurology.
PiggyWobbles
The above statement is backed by neurological research. The premise of a feminine vs masculine brain is not a philosophical invention
equityforpunks
Structurally there's not much difference except small size difference. But the hormones and their effect is significantly different.
Kimozabi
And of course Harvard is known for hiring people who aren't educated as professors.
thegreatfrenchcheeses
?
iJustLikePrettyStuff
the debate on the difference of gender and sex wasn't probably that hot at the time he was studying, now with much more support 1/2
iJustLikePrettyStuff
2/3 for the LGBTQ+ the topic is much more discussed, so he is probably thinking it's nonsense like a lot of older imgurians, young imgurians
iJustLikePrettyStuff
3/3 are usually more tolerating and understanding, because they a lot of times know someone that has a different gender than sex
Mohawklynx
The way I was taught (in a condensed nutshell) : Gender is more expression plus features like an Adam's apple for males, and sex is bits.
Addman0
fun fact: Adam's apple in male and female are the same size on average when measured. and are in fact not a determining trait for males
ziggurats
That's BS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam's_apple. Any basic anatomical diagram will show differences on average in the larynx.
RosegoldEverything
Yep - women have more fat on their necks, covering it, if I'm not mistaken.
ElsoKukaba
I don't think that is true, source?
Addman0
unfortunately, i can't find the article I read it in so I have no source so disappointingly take it with a grain of salt as it were sorry :(
1sneakymidget
Lol google it instead of guessing that they are wrong
ElsoKukaba
I did, didn't find anything credible, and came back and asked.
Addman0
no. no. there quite right it's my responsibility as the conveyor to provide source information.
JohnnyTitelips
This psychology professor seems to disagree with you.
TitaTitanium
And?
OcelotMatrix
I think OP paraphrased poorly.
AnAsOfYetUnidentifiedIndividual
No, he doesn't. He just thinks gender is not simply socially constructed, but based partly on biological factors.
jeppsson
The "activist" seems to disagree.
Justathrowaway300
What I gather is that he doesn't actually mind people having different pronouns, he's just against it being legally enforceable.
Justathrowaway300
i.e. if you called someone by the wrong pronoun, it shouldn't be counted as a hate crime.
odraencoded
Number of men arrested for calling a woman "he" and vice-versa: 0, probably
Justathrowaway300
Exactly. Apparently, a law was being passed that would give the ability to charge other people for using the wrong pronoun, and that's (1/2)
Justathrowaway300
(2/2) what this guy is against.
feydkin
Exactly right.
AnAsOfYetUnidentifiedIndividual
He has said is he largely unwilling to use various pronouns. But he has also said that he does believe in transgender or nonbinary people.
AnAsOfYetUnidentifiedIndividual
He does think there is such thing as gender apart from sex, only that they 'don't vary independently'
thegreatfrenchcheeses
Why is 'hate crime' even a thing. A crime is a crime. A pronoun is not a crime.
JunWasHere
Hate crime covers things like racism, sexism, etc.. It doesn't apply here; the issue is idiots like these protesters want it to apply.
Justathrowaway300
I assume a "hate crime" is basically trying to take into account the individual's motivation, like murder vs manslaughter.
InJenius
Im just gonna call people dude or comrade. Problem solved, and i dont have to bend to the will of everyones precious egos
SasjaSmolderslikesyourdog
Stick to comrade. Dude is gendered.
HD226868
*microwave startles me* DUDE!
SasjaSmolderslikesyourdog
Proof that dude is gendered: straight men don't brag about the hot dude they nailed the previous night.
InJenius
Says you
LordoftheDance
I love banging dudes' vaginas, comrade.
katwi
His argument is about freedom of speech, and feels he shouldn't be penalized for not using someone's correct pronouns which I agree with. 1/
DrSparken
Which the proposed law doesn't do, he has completely misinterpreted it and refused to back down when pointed out he's wrong.
AnAsOfYetUnidentifiedIndividual
Except massive numbers of people have shown support for mandating preferred pronouns, and U of T agrees it does based on their actions.
DrSparken
Regardless of such a dubious claim, he's protesting the law proposed. The law proposed does not support or allow such things.
AnAsOfYetUnidentifiedIndividual
It does allow such things because the definition of gender identity and expression are both written to at least quite possibly include them.
DrSparken
No, because this law is written as an extension of another, which is VERY CLEAR that such small statements would not count. Literally 1/
katwi
But saying that peoples self identities aren't valid are kinda dumb. He backs it up with science true but just let people do what they want
kendottack
But he does let people do whatever they want...he's not stopping anyone from identifying as anything.
feydkin
Here's the thing guys; He doesn't care what you call yourself or even that you ask to be called something. His line is drawn at a point 1/?
feydkin
Gov't enacts laws FORCING people to use these pronouns. And, to a lesser degree, that his university tries to force him to do so as well.
Ishwulf
That's all fine and dandy but you aren't allowed to force me to see you the way you see you. It's not even possible to truly police it.
IAlwaysUpvoteDumps
So, essentially — science is not on their side, but can't we just ignore science for a bit if it makes us feel better?
yak3ftw
You can be whatever you want, but if you identify as some xirkin dragonfuck then expect to be treated like the retard you are.
fathamster
2/2 and thereby impeding on free speech just because "muh feelingz". And if one group can do this who says there won't be more and more?
conspiramid
More or less "you can think of yourself as whatever you please, but you cannot force me to perceive you that way". It's not too different 1/
conspiramid
from Louise C.K saying "if someone says you're hurting them, you don't get tell them they're wrong".
JohnnyTitelips
You're misinterpreting it. It's not that people can't do what they want, just that their mistaken in it. Like, I think it's stupid to (1/2)
JohnnyTitelips
put ketchup on hot dogs, but it shouldn't be illegal. Likewise, I disagree with transgenderism, but alternate pronouns and cosmetic (2/3)
JohnnyTitelips
genital surgery shouldn't be illegal.
sirspiegs
'Just let people do what they want'...unless they disagree with this absurd sensitivity movement.
fathamster
Problem is that the special snowflakes try to make rules about their "pronouns" and what you can and cannot say 1/2
sirspiegs
Science trumps the feel feels. Sorry that the little cunts don't agree with it. But he's right.
katwi
Get over the minor inconvenience of using a pronoun you're not used to. Granted, people shouldn't get so offended if someone misgenders them
Banzaibill
That is a terrible solution though. Why should anyone do such a thing?
rando53
I'm not going to use a pronoun for a gender that doesn't exist.
katwi
Its a new concept and trying to force people to automatically get it is stupid. This shit takes time.
SnortAKnifeIntoMyBrain
I don't think people are arguing that. His argument was specifically targeted at Bill C-16, which would make it illegal to not refer to(1/2)
SnortAKnifeIntoMyBrain
someone with there preferred gender. (2/2)
n00barbpie
Respect to that last point. I studied Neurosci, there's really no good science that supports biological essentialism, and it's incredibly...
n00barbpie
academically dishonest for a prof to lie like that. He's just pushing a political agenda because I really believe he is transphobic.
Lilshadow48
By dropping "transphobic" like that I immediately doubt everything else you said.
FakeNewsCanBeFun
How can he be a biological essentialist when he described everything as a product of circumstances, upbringing, and culture?
FakeNewsCanBeFun
The only difference is that he considers it CONFIRMATION that gender us NOT subjective because of the CORRELATION in CIRCUMSTANCE and RESULT
JohnnyTitelips
You lost credibility with the transphobia accusations.
neddiebars
If you think J Peterson is transphobic then you haven't listen to him enough.
NickBlacksHumor
And Canada makes fun of us?
DepartmentofAlternateFacts
well i mean, everyone does.
LookingForWorkInColorado
This was not an alternate fact.
lovelyboredom
To be fair, we make fun of ourselves more than we ever make fun of anyone else.
RyanMcAllister
mobiustwo
Who is she? She looks familiar for some reason.
RyanMcAllister
Hilary Duff?
lungbudda
Is she still relevant? I haven't seen her in much of anything since her family channel show
RyanMcAllister
For this gif she's relevant.
RighteousRhythm
Yeah, cuz if we didn't laugh we'd be building bunkers and arc style spaceships. We have a lot of the same left/right bullshit extremes tho
zFUBARz
Except our right (and most of the worlds) is pretty much the centre for the US.
RighteousRhythm
Our "alt right" is picking up steam man. That's spread all over the place
zFUBARz
Oh I know how insane they can be, but at least we're not locked into a 2 party system and rational cons can easily break off as in the past.
OaksParcel
Toronto isn't really Canada though.
Ismellofhockey
In the University of Ottawa someone giving free yoga classes had to stop because of "cultural appropriation".
Mimsey
Seriously, Toronto U has had similar protests half a dozen times and Ryerson was just all over social media for a SJW professor... [1]
Mimsey
... who wouldn't permit statistics or scholarly sources that weren't from feminist academics. [2]
[deleted]
[deleted]
giitsok
*there's *A LOT *there's *going to be *though
TangoIndiaTangoSierra
http://thewritepractice.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Alot-vs-a-lot1-600x450.png
giitsok
I really hope you're not Canadian.
Trickstan
The same thing is happening in New York. There are now 31 legally recognized gender identities that are protected.
yak3ftw
Why stop at 31?
NickBlacksHumor
Cause this is motherfuckin Baskin Robbins
RobertNAdams
I identify as His Majesty, dammit.
Shikariii
What the hell, 31!
SirDuckOnQuack
That's a lot of words to ignore
Trickstan
Yes. The radical left are moving fast. It needs to stop.
Shikariii
Political correctness is getting a bit out of hand.
Trickstan
The left is using political correctness to advance a destructive ideology. Watch peterson's videos. He goes over it extensively.
wetfart92
And yet Trump is president. Where's the middle ground? Western civilization needs to find some balance for fucks sake
nooowhaaaat
U of T*
CodeHandLuke
Written by someone who knows nothing about the situation up here too. Mistaking McMaster for UoT.
jzzyaz
Lol Toronto U.. must not even go here...
MichaelYoungHistory
It's not like UofT isn't a well-known school. It's literally one of the best in the world! (This is coming from a Ryerson student too lol)
n00barbpie
Yeah lol no one calls it Toronto U... as a recent U of T grad, that makes me doubt that this poster really understands the issue.
heathersc
A u of t grad mentioning they're a U of T grad....shocker...
zoolander07
I wanted to say this exact thing
Foodstamp001
Seriously, how can someone write a post this long and not even know the proper name of the University?
smileyhat
Without seeing the name Toronto specifically, most American readers would assume an American university that fits the letters U and T.
n00barbpie
Yeah exactly.
lamarina
I was going to write the same comment haha, must be American, every Canadian knows it's UofT
PowwerOrb13
All Canadian Universities are the Uof[Relevant City] So do like Americans have other naming schemes for theirs?
MrTay
U of T in America is Texas
Felryn
I pronounce it has "U eff T" for some reason.
PowwerOrb13
All Canadian Universities are the Uof[Relevant City] So do like Americans have other naming schemes for theirs?
QuixOptic
Yes
ReallyBadAtImgur
I think it's more of a practical thing. Got a university in British Columbia? Name it UBC. Got one in Victoria? UVic.
smileyhat
Many universities are named after the state they're in. If he had just written "U of T" it could have easily been confused for (1)
smileyhat
University of Texas or University of Tennessee, both of which could be abbreviated as UT. Without seeing the word Toronto, most American (2)
smileyhat
readers probably would have assumed an American university that may fit those letters. (3)
FerricNitrate
American universities generally fall into either "University of __" or "The ___ [often State] University"
FerricNitrate
There's also just "___ University"and plenty of other receptions of course
PangolinRex
Probably because many states have both. Washington has Washington State University (WSU) and University of Washington (UW). Plus two more
psionoblast
Biological gender? Does he mean sex?
iamfunnykappa
no you mean biological gender like you said biological gender or why should he say biological gender when you dosent mean Biological gender
JohnnyTitelips
Which would be the same thing as one's gender, yes.
IAlwaysFavouriteCats
Nope. Gender generally refers to qualities of masculinity and femininity (differs along social and cultural lines). Source: psych student.
JohnnyTitelips
Well, you're wrong.
madjo
The gender one is born with.
psionoblast
Yea thats sex. Technically speaking you're not born with a gender
equityforpunks
Tho technically sex affects on gender in most cases. We don't born as total "blank slate" for environment to form as quite well known by now
ImAShittyTransAm
Mostly "biological gender" is used to mean "yeah they're trans, but they're not REALLY a guy/gal, because biology" by transphobes.
Fahargo
That's called reality. I'm more than happy to refer to a trans woman as a her. As I really don't care, but she is not a woman.
ImAShittyTransAm
say that someone is not a woman? (Oh, also add in hair distribution and texture. That changes) 3/3
Fahargo
Do they have a Y chromosome? Yes? Alright then case closed. You can make a body look as female as possible. I've seen some very 1/2
Fahargo
Attractive trans woman. But they are not woman. Gender is a social construct. Sex is not. You can't change sex.
ImAShittyTransAm
Oh, what I forgot to say is that it's also used to mean "they can't REALLY have a right to use women's shelters, restrooms, etc."
ImAShittyTransAm
If brain structure, bone and muscle density and structure, fat distribution, hormone levels, secondary sex characteristics, and maybe (1/?)
ImAShittyTransAm
also aspects of the primary sex characteristics are no longer that of their assigned sex or no longer as clear (Orochi, etc) would you (2/3)
cfgrs
Actually, I think he might mean gender. I think he's indicated once or twice that he believes biology plays a big role in a person's... (1/2
cfgrs
gender expression. And this is aknowledging that it is separate from physical bits. (So biology of your brain, I suppose)
FakeNewsCanBeFun
Yes, that's what I meant. Is sex not the tangible, biological origin of gender?
CantComeUpWithACreativeUsername
Actually if you look at the Wikipedia entry on gender you'll find that it has many meanings. Only in recent years has the word sex = gender
Ishwulf
And you can bet that proponents of the trans movement have edited the fuck out of wikipedia to fit their definition.
Cptmike
wikipedia is a modern invention managed by volunteers
PsychopompGecko
Sex is your biological dangly part. Gender is whether they dress you in pink or blue and say it's alright to wear a skirt.
AnAsOfYetUnidentifiedIndividual
That not necessarily the definition people have to accept nor is it necessarily an actually a useful way of looking at things. 1/2
AnAsOfYetUnidentifiedIndividual
This issue hinges strongly about a lack of consensus of what these terms mean and the details of how they work in reality. It's complicated.
BluBoxx
There's scholarly consensus, it's only idiots who pretend their opinion I more informed than experts who believe otherwise.
Sprixxen
That's gender-identity. Gender though can be more social. It's a two-way street w/ the person being identified via traits and the identifier
Ishwulf
What you're describing is preference of clothing style.
SirusKing
Surely then gender is literally just the embodiment of sexist gender roles?
psionoblast
Biologically and psychologically speaking sex relates your reproductive organs, gender is a social thing (masculine or feminine)
getmo
So does that mean drag queens change their gender every time they dress up for a show?
iJustLikePrettyStuff
they can be genderfluid, but they are mostly just doind a show. same when an actor in a theatre need a female, but only have male actors
UnslicedBreadisCoolToo
"gender is a social thing" is a new concept. I think its earliest usage in that case goes back to 79?
MrHaveANiceDay
Yeah, but we still have people, like, TODAY, that want to shock gay people into being straight. Psychology/sociology are barely adults
psionoblast
The fact that they are very often used interchangeably when they are not equal is what often leads to these ridiculous situations cont.
psionoblast
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-how-and-why-sex-differences/201110/sex-difference-vs-gender-difference-oh-im-so-confused
theincrediblebullshittingman
He's saying gender is not just a social construct, but genetics often play a part as well.
psionoblast
http://apps.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/
psionoblast
Some sources
FakeNewsCanBeFun
Sounds like that interpretation of gender is predicated on the assumption that masculine and feminine characteristics are not related to sex
PhiIIipJFry
As a native english speaker it seems that way but many other languages gender objects that have no sex. French for example.
PsychopompGecko
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/when-did-girls-start-wearing-pink-1370097/
Kierbear2g
they aren't.
SirusKing
Then surely the clear logical thing we should do is try our hardest to abolish gender itself, and not invent new genders?
SirusKing
It seems to me that the very idea of gender is just another method of enforcing gender roles, or, more realistically, sex roles.
FakeNewsCanBeFun
I don't find that particularly acceptable. Sex results in profound physiological differences, extending to psychological differences.
FakeNewsCanBeFun
Gender, therefor, seems more of a derivative of sex. Expressed in some ways, nearly uniformly, through civilization.
PsychopompGecko
And in psychology, it's well-known that gender is cultural. It's like a biologist who rejects germ theory.
PsychopompGecko
How society treats sex results in those differences, related to voting rights, marital rights, which sex is seen as the "strong" one.
PsychopompGecko
Apply your justification to other characteristics. It might help you see the flaw. Hair color, eye color, skin color, for instance.
meskarune
Imagine you take someone's mind and put it into a robot. What is their gender?
Ishwulf
That's a shitty example. You're jumping way too far ahead. First you need to determine if they're even considered human anymore.
meskarune
Also what about intersex persons or people with differing number of chromosomes?
FakeNewsCanBeFun
We don't really know what happens to the mind (software) when removed from the body (hardware.) But if it were done, I'm certain (1)
Kierbear2g
sex and gender are not the same thing. At all.
Ishwulf
You need to learn to provide some foundation for your statements, otherwise it just looks like you're parroting what other people say.
AnAsOfYetUnidentifiedIndividual
Peterson does not say there is no gender outside of biological sex, considering he has said transgender and nonbinary people do exist.
AnAsOfYetUnidentifiedIndividual
Though, of course, that's not what his strongest opponents would have you believe.
JohnnyTitelips
Except when they are.
Kierbear2g
They aren't.
PsychopompGecko
They literally aren't. And a professor who didn't know the difference would be like a biologist not knowing what a cell is.
JonathanSwiftProbablyInventedBabybackRibs
I guess I see where you're going with that, that a psych or sociology prof should probably know the difference
JohnnyTitelips
They are, though.
minuteye
1/ The issue is not primarily about what he teaches in class, but about how he treats his fellow employees of the university, some of whom
minuteye
2/ he is in a position of power over (as their supervisor or boss). And while he know a lot about psychology, he's very uninformed about
Kamasu0Tra
And is there any reports about him mistreating anybody, at all, ever?
minuteye
3/ linguistics. He's said some flat-out inaccurate things (e.g. about the history of singular 'they' in English), but keeps spouting off
NewProtectorate
... and therefore he shouldn't be allowed to teach the classes he was hired to teach without getting shouted down and harassed? OK.
ImAShittyTransAm
Imagine being born on the other side of the gender spectrum. Imagine hating the way society viewed you, the way your body was, and your >
ImAShittyTransAm
> very existence. Imagine spending years of your life rectifying that and being met with opposition every step of the way. Imagine being >
SurelyNotAWalrus
Both sides can be wrong at the same time
minuteye
4/ like his opinions are facts and everyone else's are censorship. This man is not the free speech hill you wanna make your stand on.
jeppsson
Yup
AgonyZ
That was exactly what I was looking for. People always make this about free speech not thinking about his colleagues or students that he 1/2
AgonyZ
treats unfairly by taking the stance he did. If you have a problem with non binary people? Okay. If you are in a position of power? No.
TheArcticAC
And this is why he should not be allowed to teach his class on the subject he is hired to teach?
totallyahumanperson
because it violates the school's policies, if you violate your employee's rules that's grounds for termination.
AnAsOfYetUnidentifiedIndividual
It doesn't matter if he is wrong in his opinions about anything as to the quality of the free speech point. You must allow 1/2
AnAsOfYetUnidentifiedIndividual
wrong, even somewhat immoral, opinions to have a voice in society in order to maintain free speech.
pizzapartyhard
What's this about singular 'they'? As a teacher who advocates the use of singular 'they' over 'his or her' or 'one' i am genuinely curious.
ImAShittyTransAm
Some people think it's incorrect to use it as singular. Some people also don't know records of that use go back centuries.
minuteye
That's exactly what I was referring to.
NegentropyX
I don't like using "they" for "he or she" because the verb conjugation doesn't feel right when referring to one person.
minuteye
For some dialects it sounds weird, but in others it's perfectly natural.
pizzapartyhard
Conjugate it normally: "If a person has two options, they have to choose one of them." It might seem weird, but I'm okay with it.
Trickstan
Agree to disagree. The man is an intellectual giant and a pillar of the movement against postmodernism and Marxism.
gemmaluisa
It's not about pronouns it's about not being forced by law to sag things you need to listen to his argument before you judge
DrSparken
And his argument is wrong because the law doesn't even say what he thinks it says.
jeppsson
Is this satire?
minuteye
Being an intellectual giant in one field does not mean you know anything about pronouns, mate.
theyar
Is there an upper bound on how much research and self-modification I should engage in before I can talk to you without offending you?
minuteye
Before talking? No. Before using the authority of your academic platform to present yourself as an expert on a different subject? Yes.
SomeCrazyNerd
Sure but his positions have been widely distorted as anti-LGBT. He ain't.
Trickstan
*grammatically
Trickstan
From a linguistic perspective they is always plural. It has been as singular informally but to do so is frantically incorrect.
minuteye
1/ This is a common misconception, but it just isn't true. A) Historically it's been used as a singular for centuries, B) In many dialects
minuteye
2/ its singular use is perfectly grammatical, C) Dr. Peterson himself has been recorded using singular 'they' in speech, he just refuses
DrSparken
They being only plural only emerged about 100-150 years ago, as singular and plural 600+, and comes from germanic languages where english 1/
DrSparken
sources its grammar, opponents claim it shouldn't exist because it's not in romance languages when english only majorly sources vocab from2/
DrSparken
romance, not grammar. 3/3