Multipass
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaron_Lanier
Jan 21, 2024 3:36 PM
Multipass
54419
929
32
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaron_Lanier
ChanceVLuck
Societies are, at best, highly adaptable. We have countless examples of the truth being right in front of us but choosing to stay on the coarse we are on. Then, when confronted with the forseeable problems of not changing course, we create work arounds. This adaptability has, to a large degree contributed to our success but it will undoubtably be our downfall.
bumCandle
Heh heh weiner
canadianreserve
How does he know the society could not survive? Could be provide an example?
MrStealYourGiF
A lot of the season 3 and 4 new Doctor Who episodes are hitting a bit real in current times, lots of humans seduced into global network which turns evil crap in there.
AvidApostate
100% this guy has hygiene problems.
powerrangerpl
Everybody has their own set of biases. Make sure you are aware of yours, you fucking clown.
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html
SomeOneHasBeenLookingForYou
so many writing's of "warning" were taken as "shit to try" vs" avoid at all costs"
bleepbloopbleep33
I love him so much. He was the reason I ditched fb, Instagram and refuse tiktok. I’m still addicted obviously on Imgur and Reddit but at least my name image and social network are not public.
BautaStein
Join us now and share the software;
TheLastSpaceman
We are fucked
wadenelson1
Ask yourself, to what extend do you self-censor because of fake points given/taken on Imgur/Reddit, etc.
brainwipe
Wiener also wrote "Cybernetics", which I read front to back as an undergrad
rossonerinho
https://imgur.com/YIlEqox.gif
zweifel
Is that guy able to walk?
Rodville
Every generation of adults have their own "this thing is ruining the children!" Now it's cell phones/internet my generation (gen x) it was video games. For my parents it was the widespread adoption of television. For my grandparents it was radio. It goes back as far as history does that people claim the next "new technology" is going to doom us all.
wickerandcork
The irony of viewing this on my handheld computer.
FesteringStump
I can't give proper attribution to the quoth, but someone said that humanity is a trap set to catch itself. Or something along those lines. And this was before the advent of all this tech. With our cognitive biases and basic self-centredness it's hard to be optimistic. Even if you allow for the possibility of us somehow mastering the ability to genetically alter ourselves, you're still left with it being in the hands of a creature that just doesn't know what's good for it.
ScottPerri
Eh, the Simpsons have predicted everything for over 30 years now.
lovehandlesmessiah
Hippie John Malkovich does a great talk.
krysber
I hear it too!
cloverleafbane
The irony of someone posting this on a social media platform and it making it to the front page is unfathomable
NomNomNeutron
It's a fathomable as people using weapons to destroy weapons depots.
NomNomNeutron
It's *as
Jaeger6Ix
I think he needs a burger
Yellowchopsticks
OmgOptimized
Nice, it must be the torment nexus, from the book "don't create the torment nexus"
Keru
headcloudmonkey
Was going to post this, beaten to it!
gabicraina
You were too late! The first company which manages to create "the Torment Nexus™" and go public with its IPO will create SO much value for its shareholders!
pritolus
Capitalism ruins everything
GoldensForDayz
Heh wiener
9livestorigel5
Jaron Lanier is one of the founders of the field of virtual reality among many other things. His books are really interesting too. Some of them are: Who Owns the Future? (2013), Dawn of the New Everything: Encounters with Reality and Virtual Reality (2017), and Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now (2018).
RunsWithScizrs
I recognize him from The Social Dilemma. Loved what he had to say. His hand-talking is distracting for me, though. Gonna try one of these books instead of watching him talk.
TheDaharMaster
That hairdo makes me want to not watch him talk in the first place
saturatedcottonballs
IDK, im getting wise monk / ascetic vibes. I'd love to hang with the guy for an afternoon and take in his musings.
Bollramm
It's not the tools we developed it's how we are and how we use these tools.
unluckyandbored
The Internet is no longer a tool. It is a weapon.
Bollramm
Tool, weapon....same thing 🤷♂️
Freyja33
This is really well put and interesting but I think it's important to point out that the theory of behaviorism espoused by Skinner is usually considered inadequate to describe human behavior/cognition. Because of this, the actual effects of the internet aren't as black and white as what Wiener described. Although I do still think he was on to something, in reality these effects are weaker, less focused, and are affected at every level by the enormous complexity of human cognition and society
Freyja33
I also think a lot of computer science experts are very enamored by Skinner's philosophy because it describes human and animal behavior in a way that is close to how computer scientists are used to thinking about computers. I.e. to Skinner there are defined sensory inputs that predictably result in behavioral outputs. There is obviously some truth in that, but at the same time it's obviously inadequate to describe the whole of how humans or even animals learn and behave and react to stimuli.
MaelstromSama
The tech experts responsible for things like social media, aren't under any illusions about how human behavior works. Their entire goal is to influence behavior *probabilistically* in order to get you to spend time on their platform. If they believed human behavior were governed by just a few variables, they would have failed and given up already. Just because your behavior is manipulated on a probabilistic basis doesn't mean you're not in a skinner box.
Freyja33
I mean like I said, that's why there's some truth in all this and it's worth thinking about, but not oversimplifying. While I think that social and other forms of media are certainly designed to manipulate people and do so effectively, they do not control or predict every reaction. Humans adapt to deal with this artificial environment, and to exert independent influence on it. Some of these adaptations can in turn be exploited, but it's a constantly evolving and chaotic dynamic, it's not simple
Freyja33
And that's why I slightly object to calling this a 'skinner box' which is designed to be more narrowly constrained and controllable. The reality of how interaction with media shapes human cognition, behavior, and interactions is fundamentally beyond that because it is not controlled, because it involves far more moving parts, it involves conflicting agendas, it involves the entirety of human society and interaction. Something vaguely analogous is happening, but it's really not the same
Sotai
People are always so horny to blame the negative results of a parasitic society on it's technology. We know the technology isn't going to go away, so we pretend to think it's the cause of our suffering so we don't have to do the hard work to fix the real issues.
scatmanCrothers
I just want a camera that makes phone calls.
DangrebeTheMangrebe
Yeah for real. Also this guy can't even stand up he is so fat.
majorPUFFEN2
You just described religious people, just have to take away the technology part of your statement
SkamanSam
I dont think he's blaming technology. I'm pretty sure he's saying we need to rise up against those who control it. There are ways to fight it - secure VPNs, privacy-first browsers, ad-blockers, etc.
OmEqualsMC2
This will be the downvoted comment, but…this is literally the same argument the right uses to avoid gun control. Neither technology is going to go away.
comeonjointhejoyride
SchlappaDaBass
love this
bleepbloopbleep33
Um no it’s the tech.
LucidPariah
I stopped reading your comment at "people are always so horny"
TurdBurglar3000
Horny for Wiener
Sotai
I guess you aren't really proving that part of the statement wrong here.
Beefkins
We are mad at what technology is used for while also being responsible for it.
UncleMartha
Submitted for your dis/approval.
Goldensands
New technology used by evil people with no regulations is a recipe for disaster. Technology is neither good nor bad but depends on the user, sure, jut the reality is there will be bad users with something so widespread. So we need to collectively deal with that reality.
stephenmayhem
Exactly. Imagine getting a notification reminding you it was time for your completely free doctor's appointment that you didn't have to beg to get time off for, and you were going to get there in your clean, inexpensive public transportation on roads that weren't crumbling.
Instead we get: former president slings feces at Judge in his rape case... leads all candidates in presidential race by 14 points.
It's not the notifications, it's what we're being notified of.
nicky512
Technology just holds up a mirror to humanity. We get to see how terrible we are in real time, not just in history books. Humanity is the devil. …the proverbial devil. There is no actual devil, that’s just some shit we made up to control people before the internet existed. Back when we could get away with big lies.
Buffoonery
Those damn Roman's and their fancy roads. This automobile fad will quickly disappear.
captainerroneous
But what did the Romans ever do for us??
theorell
The aqueduct?
SchlappaDaBass
Preach
inkswitch11
IMHO our unchecked reproduction is the root of most suffering.
wardj1203
But you cannot check this. Otherwise you're telling people what they may and may not do with their own bodies. So the only answer is given that people aren't going to stop having sex anytime soon, how can we do better to provide for everyone? People who have their needs met are, imo, generally less likely to be shitbags. Obviously there are exceptions such as all these billionaires, but if we can meet the needs of average people I do think society would be better for it.
IEatYourSombrero
Luke warm take. We can feed the entire planet no problem, it's just a matter of logistics.
Hemelsblauw
Most first world countries have a birthrate below 2. Poverty is still the biggest cause.
Sotai
There is just absolutely no evidence for this, though. There is more than enough to go around, the reason people don't get it is because we let some horde much more than their fair share.
RedStarVidal
In my opinion it's our unchecked desire to steal cheese.
PricklyHedgy
Greed, is the real problem
TinyOctopus
Tiny octopus believes that fear is the root of it all. Fear of being perceived as less. Fear of being left behind, fear of being alone. When you look at every negative action humanity has taken, you can see the fear that has influenced that decision. For greed, it can be the fear of missing out, or the fear of not having enough. Look at Elon. You can see that man's fears written in the sky and they influence everything he does.
Hemelsblauw
This
FusRoDa
I agree with Sotai and TinyOctopus if we are talking about reach the root and dispelling the notion that we must undo, I wonder what it would take to give everyone total power, that might be the only way to remove the fear and allow a truly equal population. Manipulators will still be a problem but I suspect that problem will be less frequent when everyone has the ability to meet their own needs.
OlaphOfTheNorth
Look I agree that fundamental political and economic change is long past necessary and dooms our species as a whole, let alone individuals trying to operate within the framework, but I've gotta ask why you think it would be harder to change technologies than to change laws. They seem equivalent to me as 1. forces that everyone in our societies takes for granted but which 2. we designed this way ourselves and can redesign from the ground up if we can gather enough will to do so
neutronparticle
I don't think it's a matter of whether the change is hard but whether the change will stick. As long as our economic system incentivizes profit regardless of harm, technological change will bend toward that goal. The pioneers of the internet had lofty hopes and principles, but our economic system rewards psychopaths like Mark Zuckerberg and they've been fucking it up ever since.
Sotai
Technology is not causing any of our problems and there is no serious effort to remove technology to try to address our problems. People blaming technology aren't seriously interested in fixing anything, they just picked technology because it almost makes sense if you do not think about it. This lets them have a strawman to excuse their inaction and allows them to identify allies in uselessness because it's a nonsense argument that only other unthinking people will agree with.
killdread
Because technology is by design useful for almost every purpose, and there will always be bad actors seeking to use it to others detriment.
OlaphOfTheNorth
I mean, I guess, but that could be said of laws and economic systems as well- that they reach into every area of our lives and are susceptible to exploitation for personal gain. I just read your initial comment as dismissive of the importance of _also_ fixing the dystopian attributes of our technological landscape while dealing with the rest of the issues; a post-scarcity social media skinnerbox is just the world broken differently than it is now
killdread
The technology itself isn't the problem, it's the usage of said technology, and we can't just change the way all technology works to prevent uses that are morally or ethically objectionable without severely breaching those morals, ethics, and/or it's base usefulness. So it circles back around to the legal, political, and economic framework needing to be overhauled to disincentivize such uses, along with the other changes those systems need.
OlaphOfTheNorth
Isn't the original post you're responding a critique of a particular application of technology? The speaker, Jaron Lanier, is one of the most important people in the development of many of the social functions of the internet, and knows whereof he speaks. He's not saying we need to rip down the internet he helped build, he's saying we need to change the context in which we're interacting with it.
StillWittyMFs
Who the fuck is that and why would I listen to anyone who looks that unhinged?
DildoMussolini
Nooooo!!! It's good to look like a repulsive slug, you're being biased!!!
cheeseguy3412
Some interesting reading on it: https://www.cs.umd.edu/users/gasarch/BLOGPAPERS/moral.pdf
powerrangerpl
Everybody has their own set of biases. Make sure you are aware of yours, you fucking clown.
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html
Madv1lla1n
Why do looks have to come into it? The guy is mostly quoting the words of another guy, who just happened to be the father of cybernetics. If the irony of what he was saying was lost on you, then you might need to sit down and pay attention.
YourMotherApproves
We could all say the same about you. At least this guy is presenting something thoughtful, unlike a tool who judges people based on looks.
DeviousChimp2
Jason Lanier and because you're an open minded person who doesn't judge people on their appearance
Tawandaborkbork
*Jaron. But thank you for the name! I went down a wikipedia rabbit hole since you provided name :)
DeviousChimp2
Ah, autocorrect doesn't like unusual names
StillWittyMFs
Except people do judge people based on appearance. If you look like a homeless person who hasn’t washed or cut his hair in 25 years, I assume you’re not right in the head.
YourMotherApproves
DeviousChimp2
Okay
MaelstromSama
So since Albert Einstein had wildly unkempt hair, general relativity is out of the question for you huh? Okay, more smarts for the rest of us I guess.
StillWittyMFs
Unkempt isn’t the same as filthy greasy white guy dreadlings that clearly haven’t been washed in a very long time.
MaelstromSama
So if Einstein had gross dreads *then* you would disregard him?