plottwist96
271477
9722
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Nov 9, 2017 9:27 AM
plottwist96
271477
9722
335
AMOmike77
Nah, I’d still do it. It’s not about what I got. It’s about what I had to give. ‘This We’ll Defend’
TheKimInTheNorth
Having spent almost 8 years in now, I do see a lot of that, most of the people in my rate are college dropouts trying to unfuck themselves
Squeakdragon
It's what I did. Learned a fuck of a lot in the army. I don't regret doing it.
yerlerswerg
I joined to kill Nazis, turns out I was a bit late on that one
KharnApproves
Wait a couple of years, we might get to do it again.
snowfork
Not to mention the naval academy has one of the best Telecom programs in the country. It isn't community college folks.
whydotheycometometodie
is that why so many Navy go to Fort Gordon for their communication training?
snowfork
I worked in Telecom briefly. The trainers touted former Navy as very well trained.
ChocolatePizzaMemes
In Scotland we have free health care and free college/uni education. Some people just want to be part of the army in one way or another.
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
want vs. need, huge difference.
mishalala
So no one joins for career enhancement/employment opportunities? My friend enlisted and when she got out had ready-made career in computers.
KWJester49
Feel like that was an oversimplification or maybe just small sample size, or sailors don't care to divulge actual reason to their divo.
PiGiSpi
Oh man, time to put on my dusty industrial military complex conspiracy hat
CochiseVeneficorum
That is all a matter of perspective. Why should the government provide anything to anyone who isn't willing to earn it?
thatoneguyovertheresmells
I joined because I wanted military service on my resumé but school was a very close second. Idk if I’d have chosen straight up college
thatoneguyovertheresmells
If it were free. I’ve been in for quite a while and JUST now figured out what career I actually want lol. If I had gone straight to school
thatoneguyovertheresmells
I would have paid for a degree in a career I don’t even enjoy now.
VaultTecSanitationDepartment
Is there something wrong with joining for free college? It's not just free, you get a stipend every month too so you don't NEED a job
retgarr
It's not "free" college at all. It's a benefit. Compensation.
KharnApproves
No. Serve honorably and enjoy your entitlements. Just don't be that guy/girl that hates socialism while taking full advantage of socialism
eggmuffin
Yes. I shouldn't need to risk my life and my marriage to get access to college.
VaultTecSanitationDepartment
Good thing it's a volunteer military then huh
imgurforants
Great thing about America is you don't, technical colleges give great jobs and a cheap while other jobs dont require college at all.
IxDAxHO
You don’t have to, for one you can join the USCG OR USAF with little risk. Beyond that you can work to get aid, scholarships, or loans.
keyo22
You don’t. Stay in state and apply for financial aid. State schools are so much cheaper than ppl think. Student loans arent the devil either
hakunamatatas
Government guaranteed ones are, they are the reason why college costs are increasing. Too much demand for too little supply.
IxDAxHO
I know loads of people who are college graduates who paid for it themselves that don’t have a ton of money.
eggmuffin
Well done to them. What's your point?
IxDAxHO
Apparently it’s not obvious? Ok, the point is that you don’t HAVE to risk your life to pay for a higher education.
eggmuffin
No, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head. Yet many still feel like they have little to no choice, WHICH IS THE ISSUE BEING DISCUSSED!
JifLover
Big difference giving free healthcare and college education to 325 million people compared to 1.3 million.
JifLover
There's also a component of WORK that's involved here mind you. It's not exactly FREE if you WORK for it. Just a reminder.
InboxMeYourPuns
Absolutely no one in my company joined for benefits this is stupid
bohemiancrabcity
Yeah, that comment about 80% said college is bullshit.
SpqrMcmlxxxvi
Military not only path. Common belief though, like belief that college is necessary at all. Learn a trade. Teach yourself something.
whydotheycometometodie
Tech management always "require bachelors degree", but I've never showed one to get the job. Experience is more important than training.
nickgreyden
This was true... 20 years ago. Now you need a trade AND a degree to get a job. Apprenticeships need a comeback :(
slack3rdav3
I whored myself out to the military for 5 year to get free college. Prostitution aint so bad.
JHawke
I'm entirely not against selling my body. But in this case there is a bit of a huge difference between war or peacetime :p
KeeleonOhms
Thats why places with free everything also have mandatory enlistment.
Shargan8
Germany? Slovenia? Italy? Balkans? The Netherlands? Luxembourg? ...
FaoySamfs
I've been in the military 22 years. When I joined there were still people who joined to serve their country. No new Soldiers say that now.
DavidBrooker
Well, the country has been at war for the last 16 of those years.
ComicallyLongUsername
Almost as if decades of relentless exploitation by the ruling class are weathering away the proletariat's patience, or something.
KharnApproves
#iamsixteenandiamedgy
ComicallyLongUsername
So being in any way critical of the current social order is being an edgelord now?
merbaby
So.... Can we stop fellating all members of the military with "thank you for serving your country, you're all heroes"?
wander01
THIS
FaoySamfs
Regardless of what made them walk through the recruiter's door they still follow through with their sworn duty. That's worth something.
IxDAxHO
You’re..... kind of a dick.
bubbleteapanties
Should I say "I'm sorry this country hates you so much that you had to whore yourself out to war makers to get an education." ?
XChiefAwesomeX
I prefer people thanking me for my service to being spit on and called a baby killer.
Avagadro
Why does it need to be a binary choice? Whatever happen to a simple neutral position?
FaoySamfs
Most say nothing but if someone approaches you it's to either thank you for your service or to say something negative.
eggmuffin
Yes, this would be welcome. They're not all heroes. They are human beings with human motivations.
Shoutrr
got stories from my grandma from the months after d-day. some of these soldiers were pure pieces of shit rapists.
FaoySamfs
Well yeah people are people, there's always going to be bad ones. Statistically the most dangerous place you can take your child is church.
Leeloothedog
Honestly it's annoying when people thank me for my service
swedishpancakeswithlingonberries
Yes it is.
IxDAxHO
Here’s a crazy thought, a patriotic person who wants to serve their country but also wants to get an education afterward... it happens
FaoySamfs
That was me, mixed in with being in a bad situation.
OdiumToJoy
The military teaches you skills and techniques you cannot learn anywhere else. It's not just college...
chocolateisthebreakfastofchampions
I just did some stats on this and the USA has DOUBLE the military compared to other first world countries based on percent of the population
rocketturttle
Some of that is because Europe believes that if Russia invades them the US will step in
fluhatinrapper
We do everything bigger. That's usually not better. Like having the most incarcerated people in any country per capita, "Land of the Free"
causality
and we use it for nothing but screwing around in the sandbox and dick-measuring with Norkor.
icanmakeayomamajokeoutofanything
And to keep Europeans from punching each other in the nose.
Zyrixion
And we spend more than a fuckton of other civilized nations combined.
ForMyOwnAmusement
your military budget is as much as the next 10 countries combined.
Zyrixion
Yeah. Meanwhile our education spending languishes in comparison, and certainly the efficacy thereof.
chocolateisthebreakfastofchampions
USA has 0.42% of the population are active military and 0.73% are enrolled. Compared to Australia, UK and Canada who have 0.23-0.25%
LoudBirb
AND our military spending is about 49% of total global military spending.
chocolateisthebreakfastofchampions
Yikes!
chocolateisthebreakfastofchampions
Active military and 0.32-0.36 enrolled in the military. I used the numbers from this sauce
chocolateisthebreakfastofchampions
https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=united-kingdom
GerickMPB
That's pretty neat to know. However when it comes to numbers China only has .001% of it's population in the military yet 1mil more /1
GerickMPB
service members that the United States. (Granted with half the budget) Just as a frame of reference /2
SurfHill
This First World/NATO/UN can sleep easier due to America's commitment to world wide security. And they complain we don't pay our fair share.
Hyippy
In recent years America has probably done more to destabilize the world than anything else. Not that I dislike Americans they're nice people
SurfHill
Middle East maybe, but the last 70 years has been Europe's most stable period in 1500 years. In-spite of small flareups, East Asia too.
Hyippy
I don't know if you can give America all the credit for that. Much more to do with the EU and general increases in standards of living.
SurfHill
Do you believe that there would not have been any Islamic Terror attacks in Europe if the U.S. did not respond to 9/11?
Hyippy
I think that the middle eastern wars probably served more to increase extremism than it did to curb it.
SexDrugsBirdsandRocknRoll
Jesus, it's so obvious but I've never thought about it like that... that's fucking awful.
quattroformaggix4
You've never heard someone reference to the lower classes as canon fodder? It made me gag when I first heard someone utter it.
Kuhmeister
I have never heard of "canon fodder"
MrsJungleCat
Not much has changed since the Civil War.
quattroformaggix4
Time immemorial. Canons have gotten deadlier.
Enygma314
You need some Carlin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtSv3x6lh3o
PlbMak
We had an ex US service guy over here (UK) for training for a while, signed up for a better education, got sent to the Gulf war one.
GnomeDeGuerre
Like walking through a minefield.
WardSharlow
One friend went for the education. Uncle Sam sent him to nuke school. Made Navy Captain. Deployed to desert base in sandbox.
somethinginthecorner
Everyone I know in the military joined because it was something to do, college was just a bonus. Heck most of them hated the idea of college
Asgarus
Maybe it's different in the Navy.
WardSharlow
Yeah. Navy and Air Force are more bleep bloop, less bang bang. But the bangs are a lot bigger.
Asgarus
I meant the mentality and reasons for people to join.
cheeseguy3412
Yep. And why do you think one side is against education AND birth control? Its a meat grinder.
bohemiancrabcity
http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/31/uncle-sam-wants-who/
Assklowne
If you state facts in specific orders you imply a false agenda with the bonus of the intended reader thinking they discovered it. You should
Assklowne
Be in advertising good sir
PickIeRick
I upvoted cheeseguy because of the thought process, not necessarily the conclusion.
JHawke
Is the thought process not what leads to this specific conclusion, a different conclusion would have meant a different thought.
cheeseguy3412
Not the intent, just no room to go into detail here. I claim no conspiracy, just mutually beneficial policies that are realized / exploited.
strcmdman
That same side also just happens to be pro war, military budget, 1%, military contracting, guns, and for the large part conspiracies now
GnomeDeGuerre
How many dead vets signed up with the hope of having healthcare when needed or getting access to education?
bcurly
Less than those who worked in logging or fishing just for a decent pay check.
bohemiancrabcity
Statistically its bullshit. Only around 52% use it, and 22% complete 4 year degree. http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/31/uncle-sam-wants-who/
neil137
plans change, and the 22% stat makes me sad
bohemiancrabcity
Because it's low or because you think that's why those people joined?
fluhatinrapper
That's still half attempting to use those benefits! Your stats only prove the point.
CrossFire49
Yes. And depending on where you are in Europe, those benefits are not gong to jail and/or retaining your citizenship.
bohemiancrabcity
The post shows 80%, and using benefits is not the same as joining solely for the benefits. Most vets I know used it to advance while in.
bohemiancrabcity
Or for technical certifications to get a job after.
electricsun
Designed that way?
TitaniumEatingUtensil
Yup joined the army because I couldn't afford college. 3 years later Got hit by a Humvee and found out I have a closing disorder. 1/2
TitaniumEatingUtensil
2/2 they were just like "bye buddy good luck in the world, oh and you don't get your benefits, have fun!" Rip
IxDAxHO
If you served 36 months on active duty as long as you didn’t get a bad conduct separation then you can take advantage of the GI bill.
BradysButtBoy
Is this, like, not something that everyone just knows?
PiGiSpi
I think we know the reasons why people join but have never thought about it in a bigger picture kind of way
exitparadise
I think people don't want to believe the equation is that simple.
NauseousPanda
I had the privilege of a funded education in college, never even a though about the people who paid to be there 1/2
NauseousPanda
tbh we call college "school of applied science",we're not the only ones who use this term and I'm lazy to google how they're different
fluhatinrapper
As an educated American working in higher ed, I honestly had not made that connection.
cheeseguy3412
This has always been obvious to me. I always though it was an open secret. After WWII / Vietnam / Korea, Americans became MUCH 1/?
cheeseguy3412
more cynical, so the standard 'Be patriotic, sign up!' that had worked since the 40s stopped working. They took their carrot, and 2/?
cheeseguy3412
Then applied the stick. Now its 'die without healthcare / education, or sign up to do what I tell you' 3/3
zackofspades
I mean free college education is still a carrot policy tbh...
ColoneISanders
It's like breathing. You don't realize you're doing it until someone points it out.
aatron99
I think most of us know when thinking about the benefits of enlisting, but I have never made that connection to the issue of free college
IZ42
Speaking honestly - it's not something I've thought about, or at least made the connection.
cheeseguy3412
damspam
I'd replace "worst" with "self-serving". Evil isn't the end goal of institutions, just an irrelevant byproduct to meet their objective
zebrakebebra
I think you're both right. 'Worst' is basically another way of saying 'most selfish'. Sometimes its ignorance, sometimes its selfishness
CassiusPolybius
Like, it's obviois in hindsight, but...
CassiusPolybius
*obvious
Crowlands
As a Brit: No, I didn't know joining the army got you the healthcare you should have already.
oceansapart
The thing is, healthcare for vets is absolute shit. So, not a reason to join, imo.
lurkish
Healthcare while in is decent, and crap Healthcare after is better than none at all.
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
couldn't you use your military-funded college education to pay for decent healthcare yourself?
Thornaxe
Hive mind downvotes logic. You're absolutely right. It you're shitting on their circle jerk.
akemp2
Nope
fluhatinrapper
Yes, you could. Do things like PTSD, missing limbs, GAD, family responsibilities and work get in the way? Yes.
FreeBreastReductionConsultation
Shut up man you'll wake the republicans
GeorgeHWBushsGhost
Everyone understands this. Republicans included.
TheKimInTheNorth
It's the primary argument a few senators have made against universal healthcare and college education
TheKimInTheNorth
They claim it will reduce enlistment
mardukkur
Wow that's some cynical bullshit.
SJohnson23
There’s lots of things that Republicans understand but will never say out loud.
shmekie
Because they are cowards and shits
IxDAxHO
It’s funny how liberals preach progressivism and tolerance but then hate anyone with a slightly conservative view. Hypocrisy is fun
OfficialFederalBureauofInvestigation
Everyone is an asshole, not just republicans.
TylersSenseOfEnnui
Every one knows "That" part. The revelation is, are high college costs and lack of health care on purpose by the government to keep a 1/2
TylersSenseOfEnnui
Constant stream of 18 year olds commiting to life in the military leading to a massive and perpetually young fighting force. 2/2
TheRealAethrys
More like 4-6 years, up to 8 in the event of national emergency.
idilippy
A simpler explanation is that high college costs and no free healthcare are on purpose because those industries want to make money, no?
TylersSenseOfEnnui
Thats not my explanation, I'm not even American. I'm just describing a possible and very lucrative strategy behind the design of the market.
firehotlavaball
I've always simply assumed the majority of people who joined the navy, military, etc did it because of patriotism.
quattroformaggix4
That's the story folks eat with gusto cause they what to. No one wants to see how the sausage is made.
AngryRaven
Depends on the branch really. Most marines and army folks i know signed up to defend the country. But almost no one i went to boot with did.
AngryRaven
Nearly everyone i was in the Navy with signed up for education and training.
peoplearetheproblem
I joined for the gourmet crayons and glue. Semper crayola.
Joemammayomamma
Happy birthday! Screw your head back in after crayon cake.
freiman
For healthcare. Semper Cialis!
GregKennedy
Semper Vi
KharnApproves
Dude, I'm not going to lie, I actually yelled/laughed 'yut' when I read that.
Woopeldoop
To all my Crayon Eaters and Bleach Chuggers. Happy Birthday tomorrow Marines!
DAAHOOVAA
Window licker.
Combatmatt
Can we favorite comments. Please?
Grosslyunpopular
Heckin yes! Happy early birthday BTW
picturesarenice
I joined because it was 2009 and I needed work since I was homeless. Everyone needed work, then.
toxcrusadr
But how's the paste? Minty?
AnomolousHippopotomus
ThisUsernameIsKnownToTheStateofCaliforniaToCauseCancer
Happy Early Birthday, Face
tonymilty
Happy birthday a day early, Marines. May all your crayons be scarlet and gold.
Neotency
Must get upvotes equal to 1775. Yuuuuut.
QuotablePoots
One is for eating, the other for sniffing. My battle buddy is Elmer.
lcplspanky
Ooh rah, what’s your fav color, mine is blue as I find it doesn’t taste so chalky
tighthead01
I joined the CG in 87 and took my honorable in 91. GI Bill barely covered rent, no tuition, books, etc... 1/2
tighthead01
So, essentially I joined to get 1 full gym credit. Semper Pushupus!
MisterTrashPanda
Rah!
tcrankitxd
Ooh rah
MrChurch
The uniforms were the coolest. If I'm gonna die, it ain't gonna be looking like a smurf.
LaPiscinaDeLaMuerte
I joined for the world travel in 5 star hotels! (Air Force)
CommanderWilliamTRiker
whats your favorite color?
Gayforbae
Ah yes, the gourmet crayons. All the best ones like sienna, cerulean, mountain meadow,goldenrod, and cerise... Only the best for our marines
Raldain
I joined cus school is for nerds!
Welshglish
Likewise (uk tho) per mare per crayon.
PoliticalWanderer
I see you're a fan of Yusha Thomas too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqxrJHkzS0I
DeathclawDefibrillator
Semper ferocious fellow belleau woodsman
princeaizen
*muffled guffaw*
DearAbbi
Simply* Crayola
Grendelchan
.
Darkspire
Always tasty.
LokiKingOfJotunheim
Semper Crayola brother. I came here to eat crayons and kick ass, and I'm all out of crayons...
kmikl
there's more crayons at the PX... just saying.
LokiKingOfJotunheim
I think I should be able to shop at the PX again soon. I heard they were giving veterans access to the PX.
kmikl
Oh! well... there's art stores, they've got the really fancy crayons there. Even Walmart has crayons. Can't let a vet go without.
eleonidas
Same, I truly think this is more probable for the navy and air force, but in the marines? Almost no one I knew did it to go to school.
DeathclawDefibrillator
School? Most of my junior Marines can't even read!
eleonidas
Let alone Gunny! "To all who sh-sha-all see these.. prese-sent greet-ings..."
DemonicCarnage
*can visibly see the formation groan without hearing it*
swedishbutthurtguy
you get more fancy crayons and glue in the Army.
kmikl
You get paper too in the air force.
swedishbutthurtguy
darn AF being all caring about their personel. giving them real tp and fancy things. I bet you even have real forks and knives when you eat.
kmikl
Hold on to your crayola Red #5: they get plates to eat off of, and they even get cups to drink from .
ElectricEggnog
I joined because I genuinely hated college, and was desperate for a career that I didn't have to go to college for. Full 20 here I come!
doctorichardnygard
Thanks for your service. Be safe.
meestahmeestah
I'm thinking about doing the same thing. How's it working out for you?
ElectricEggnog
Im not reenlisting, but for reasons unrelated. I do recommend it for people in that situation, though, it most definitely save me from...
ElectricEggnog
...a bad path. If you want to know more or have questions, PM me. I don't know a lot about the other branches, but I can answer about my...
ElectricEggnog
...experience in the marine corps.
nxrble
I was planning on finding what “or something” is, but I ended up just being a rock. Yut rah (mumbling guttural noises) Semper Fidelis, devil
PuckeredAnus
Universal healthcare would also dramatically change the personal injury lawsuit game. I think it would greatly reduce litigiousness.
bigfloppydb
+1 for "litigiousness" (would have given another for the comment if I could)
mechanimated
Yeah, when it doesn't cost the entire leg to get in put in a cast in the first place I'm sure people wouldn't try to spin suits all the time
AlwaysandEventuallyHannah
Here in NZ we realised that suing for personal injury is an awful way of dealing with in the 1960s
CobraEatsSky
if there's a parasitic industry in all of america it's (also) tax compliance no joke
imjeremiad
people will chase ambulances as long as there is a payout UHC won't change that by itself
Mariel141
Some will, but a lot of people only sue because they have no hope of paying their med bills without it. Lawsuits are a pain in the ass.
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
it would solve many other problems, too. having a shit family is so much less problematic if you don't have to turn to them in times of >
[deleted]
[deleted]
hakunamatatas
You have any citation for that or do you like pulling shit out of your ass too?
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
i don't have to show proof for basic logic.
hakunamatatas
Basic logic that homosexual kids are being kicked out of their homes? Yeah, that's not basic logic.
patrickcoyneud
Those lawsuits are one of the major reasons healthcare is so expensive, many family doctors cannot afford insurance and have to close
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
I believe it was Texas? Maybe another state, removed the ability to sue for damages, no decrease in prices.
MiniatureFantasyWillemDafoe
Health care is so expensive is because the insurance companies demanded higher discounts from hospitals, so hospitals raised the prices to
MiniatureFantasyWillemDafoe
give the illusion of a bigger discount.
GiantRobotsRule
Malpractice is only about 2-3% of our total health care system. It needs reform, but I think the drug & insurance industries acct for more
Bigcurly2000
I was astonished visiting America seeing all the billboards and tv ads for lawyers, and prescription drugs.........and bible quotes.
fluhatinrapper
"Land of the Free"
Xyzair
Held captive by the book
thelostfaith
I enlisted to get away from home, and for college. Greatest thing I ever did, I have absolutely 0 patriotism.
SomeGeographer
I did it for healthcare because I kept getting denied health insurance. I was deemed medically ineligible..
iliketosaysomethingandthenjustbanana
I don't understand patriotism at all. But that's just me, I'm weird like that.
grayed
There are dozens of us.
thelostfaith
Almost 10 years after I joined, I got my electronics education from the military and right now I'm working full time because of that 1/
thelostfaith
Training, and I'm going to school full time because of my GI bill, and I'm using the housing allowance it gives me to fix up my house
TinySnek
Are you secretly a recruiter?
thelostfaith
No, fuck no
superseriouscomments
Since Germany stopped conscription most decent people avoid the military. The share of people you shouldn't trust with guns is growing there
bubbleteapanties
It's almost like education, decent medical attention, and a healthy life style are the keys to a productive society!
superseriouscomments
Yeah, but the downside is that in the military there are more and more people with fringe opinions ... that's concerning.
GhostRing
How about free health/education with mandatory military service?
CoBr2
Couldn't work in the U.S. military couldn't pay for that many members
GiantRobotsRule
Military excludes A LOT of disabilitiesconditions; many can't serve. Also, 4 million turn 18 per year. Military only has 2 mil TOTAL members
brassknucklenerd
Eliminate wars of conquest first and you've got yourself a deal.
youngurbanrebel
Done that. Could've been worse.
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
SnickersArmstrong
Although theres a thing that's a lot like being in the military but without deploying: its called just having a full time civil service job.
AdrianDunne
Mandatory service makes no sense in a modern military. Training and equipping so many makes no sense, particularly when they leave so soon.
SPECTREagent
That's many European countries
ramarins
I came from a country like that, now I'm in the US. I'm telling you, it would not work in here! They think they need the freedom to chose.
shaggykx
I completely agree with you
RevanTheJedi
You mean like here in russia? Both the army and the healthcare is on the lower level here but it could have something to do with the 1/2
RevanTheJedi
soviet union and its long lasting consequences. 2/2
Bbbrrr000ccckkk1
As a liberal veteran
TinySnek
I'd willingly give up my status as an American if mandatory military service was a thing with out expeditionary military. I am not going to
TinySnek
hurt anyone.
edzo1121
I think it makes sense for smaller countries...but the US logistics would be tough. Or maybe not idk
AngryRaven
we would have to change A LOT of the way we do things in the military and how we use the military in the US for this to work out.
Toqom
This, works really well and a lot of makes NEED some structure.
StonesOnTheHill
Might not work with an expeditionary military. People tend to be more okay with enlistment if they know they'll only defend their country.
DavidBrooker
This was the solution to the so-called conscription crises in Canada. Volunteers went to Europe, conscripts stayed in Canada.
Lyrian
Yeah, but if you guys start the indoctrination in early school, you'll grow a generation that doesn't care about that.
StonesOnTheHill
Maybe, but that'd be kind of a shitty thing to do. And you'd first have to create a generation of teachers willing to do that.
Lyrian
That would help (I write novels, so I think about this often), but I think having a strong media and entertainment presence pushing that
Lyrian
type of thinking could be enough to change the first generation's outlook, which with sufficient propaganda could then give way for the
thelostfaith
I think we should
GiantFlyingDishwasher
Or you know, don't fight as many wars?
IllusivePanda
M A N I F E S T D E S T I N Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrGJCapUIiY
damspam
Maybe wean off wars, I think if we stop wars cold turkey the cumulative hangover will literally kill us
Bbbrrr000ccckkk1
Not to have a debate gimped by a 140 character limit, but define war? I mean there are 28,500 troops in South Korea & 2 million in Germany.
GiantFlyingDishwasher
Sending people to kill other people.
Salpinus
1/2 We have mandatory service in Norway for everyone (used to be just males up till very recently)
Salpinus
2/2 but to be sent abroad (e.g Afghanistan) is strictly voluntarily. Pays well though (about $40k for each 6-month tour IIRC)
realskramz
I have to do mandatory military service and I will do everything in my power to avoid it. Mandatory military service is archaic.
mahninja
Don’t think that’s a good idea. We already have plenty of entitled lazy soldiers with the volunteer force. (1/2)
mahninja
I’ve seen mandatory service in S Korea and I’d rather not have a lot of those soldiers fighting next to me. Not saying all of them were bad.
[deleted]
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SteveLookather
Which nordic countries give 4 years mandatory civil service?
BattloidKouji
Huh, I swear to god I learned it somewhere. I'm sure I did, but now I can't find it anywhere.
SteveLookather
In finland it’s 6-12 months of military or civil service for men, 99% of whom do military. Afaik Swedes and danes have voluntary 1/2
SteveLookather
and norwegians have manditory year for men and women
BattloidKouji
Okay, it's Norway, but I was wrong, it's just under a year, not four years.
BattloidKouji
*finland, not norway. I swear to god something is wrong with me this morning.
SteveLookather
As a fin, thought 4 years sounded strange
BattloidKouji
Yeah, I must not be fully awake yet.
InsanityBuildsCharacter
Civil service is 347 days in finland.
Schitzoflink
Yeah and if you didn't want to go Pew Pew, you just got assigned to a domestic division, like the Army Corp of Engineers that only 1/2
Schitzoflink
worked in America, fixing things like the crumbling infrastructure, setting up country wide fiber networks, cleaning up cities, etc. 2/3
BattloidKouji
Lord knows our infrastructure needs it. It would literally be a win-win for everyone.
Schitzoflink
It's essentially a trade school too, bc you need welders to IT professionals. 3/3
JackRusselHarrier
4 years to get a program that pay 100% college tuition for 36 months, PLUS a monthly housing allowance, PLUS a 500$ book stipend you get -
icanmakeayomamajokeoutofanything
36 months? I pulled from my GI Bill for almost 10 years of night school.
jimanic
Did you use 33 or 31? 33 Has a max time it’ll cover.
icanmakeayomamajokeoutofanything
I'm not sure. All I remember is that I went to night school for ten years and got my GI Bill to pay throughout the entire time.
jimanic
Sounds like Montgomery. Both have their advantages. Oh and Voc Rehab is another good program underutilized.
JackRusselHarrier
- twice per school year, PLUS I saved all my money from deployments with the idea that I’ll use this money to live off of while in school -
JackRusselHarrier
Best decision of my life to go into the navy for college funding. Plus you learn to be a real independent adult, and make life long friends
slothsaremagic
My army vet friend got all of his tuition, books, and parking passes paid for. Plus he gets a monthly stipend and discounts in stores.
azertyxtra
good call not to die on deployment to afford education...
IxDAxHO
Amen man, I did the exact same thing and it was 100% worth the 6 years I spent active duty. These people saying we’re slaves are delusional
ikindafail
I think it's more that most of us have jobs we think about quitting every day, so signing up for a 6 year job seems crazy.
IxDAxHO
That’s a personal problem though, suck it up for 6 years and then get the benefits or don’t and then don’t complain about wanting free shit
JackRusselHarrier
It's actually anywhere between like 2 and 6 years contracts, but it's 8 total, active + inactive. So mine is 4 years active, 4 inactivet5
ikindafail
More so that I think you get in trouble for leaving early? AWOL or something? Desertion? Idk
TheAlmightyJesus
Thank you so much I wanted to say that you get more than college but the cancer on most of these posts is to overwhelming Best decision ever
SurfHill
Post-9/11 GI Bill is awesome. As a Desert Storm vet, I had the Montgomery GI Bill, paid in $1200, got $400 a month for 36 months for college
SurfHill
Cover my fraternity dues, gas, and left a little for beer money. :(
JackRusselHarrier
Yeah, I had bought into Montgomery during boot camp, (brainwashed). But I switched to post 911 when I actually looked more into it
whisperio
The Finnish way. Mandatory conscript service (6-12mo) or civil service(~year). You get paid to attend higher education (~700€ for me atm).
cepacolusmaximus
Mandatory conscription also keeps your leaders from jumping into conflict every time diplomacy gets difficult.
ImOldGreggAndIDrinkBaileysFromAShoe
I like it but that would never fly here in the US.
cloudandtrains
is this a sustainable way for the next decades? And would a mass amount of immigration screw it up?
TanithRosenbaum
1: Yes. 2: Refugees =/= Immigrants. And no, regardless.
aabe
700€ with a loan, yes. Luckily, if you graduate in time (from Uni at least), the government pays 40% of your loan.
aabe
So; carrot instead of stick
whisperio
Most people still respect tradition and go for military service, even tho the numbers are dropping. Top 3 smartest primary school students
Enigmastick
To be honest, some of that is peer pressure. People mock those who didn't do military service, but it has gotten better lately.
NotActuallyAMemberOfTheThirdReich
Same attitude in Turkey, except there aren't any signs of things getting better
TheRealAethrys
Aside from calling Trump or Bush draft dodgers when they are in charge of the military, I've never seen this.
Enigmastick
We are talking about Finland.
MajArc0
Mostly it's peer pressure. I've talked about this with everyone, since I knew I'd be conscientious objector. 6,5 months in prison for it.
muhvitus
You just might know certain kind of people. I was glad to serve and it's about 50/50(who go) peer pressure / glad to know in my circles.
whisperio
True, I'd rather see it made voluntary / completely professional. Atleast civil service should be made more meaningful meanwhile
ptMuta
Civil service should definitely be made more meaningful. A professional army would either require funds that our country can't get
TheMightyJoe
i was in helsinki last year , is that way a lot of young people wear those goofy red jumpsuits?
OhNoPotato
They were probably students wearing their overalls. Every degree has their specific color, so you know if you're gonna bang a doc or a nurse
TheMightyJoe
i️ thought they were like submarine /dock workers based on the weird outfit,literally looked like the enemy ai in a perfect dark map
DavidBrooker
Many militaries hate conscription. Professional forces are usually much more effective. Competitive salaries and benefits are the way to go.
DavidBrooker
Mandatory service - with just a handful of exceptions - is often more of a political / cultural issue than a military one.
RFSavage
The problem is that many countries cannot afford a large enough professional army. Thus the conscription.
DavidBrooker
Hence the phrase "you get what you pay for"
creepwood
It's not about that, it's what works that's the most important part. Small countries usually don't have the option, also Russia
DavidBrooker
If your goals are an effective fighting force, good salaries and benefits work a lot better than conscription. You get what you pay for.
Andolomar
Finland has an effective fighting force, they also want a lot of manpower to dissuade Russian aggression.
DavidBrooker
Finlands ability to dissuade Russian agression has more to do with it's relationship with NATO. Conscription helps modern militaries little.
ComradeSillyOtter
Conscripts can be equally effective. It's just that conscription is long-term expensive compared to just having a few volunteers.
DavidBrooker
One of the main factors of unit effectiveness is the level of commitment soldiers have for their peers. This is significantly reduced 1/2
DavidBrooker
for peacetime conscripts on 2-year mandatory service, such as in much of central Europe. 2/2
ComradeSillyOtter
Yes, but those aren't the prime examples. Effective conscript forces have existed on par with voluntter. I.E Israel.
Wr200m
I would fucking hate that.
TanithRosenbaum
Which part and why?
Wr200m
The mandatory service?
OhNoPotato
It's OK. I'd already been accepted to uni when I went in, and it was actually pretty nice to go after senior high.
TanithRosenbaum
Yea that would suck.
Odilein
God bless the Kaiser the mandatory conscription is currently halted in Germany. Oh wait we don't have a monarchy anymore. :-O
Ireallycantthinkofanythingbetterrightnow
Patrickt333
All you need is to tax the ever loving shit of everything. In exchange, you get some State sponsored slavery. What a bargain!
Abysse
This is a terrible idea. What right does the government have over the people to say, you have to die for me. It doesn't, anywhere.
Abysse
Not to mention the large number of people you'll get who shouldn't be in the military, or the massive costs to train them, only to get a few
Abysse
short years of service out of them. It's just not worth it.
Andolomar
Because the skills and qualifications they earn during their military service are transferrable to their careers.
spluit
Those people are not taken in military. They go through everyone's physical and mental health and those unfit for service do not serve.
MajArc0
Mandatory if you're a male.
Swiggy1957
in the US, it's been proposed that females be eligible for the draft. It hasn't passed because the military has a sexual harassment problem.
themuttonisniceandlean
I'm not saying it wouldn't be fair, it would be, but the women staying home allowed a support workforce and someone to watch the children.
Swiggy1957
Big to do about it when it was in the senate. It had to do with college grants. Personally I don't see the ladies pushing for it.
themuttonisniceandlean
I think it's more because the US doesn't need the draft at all, even for men, so it's pointless. Also drafting both hurts homefront work.
Swiggy1957
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/06/29/congress-shelves-plans-have-women-register-draft.html. I found out about it here a bit ago.
iwanttoaggressivelysqueezeteemo
I’m confused.... if it’s voluntary free college seems unfair, but when it’s mandatory it’s ok?
ArcticGolem
If it's mandatory even those who can pay for college do the service, so they are not taking advantage of those who are less fortunate.
LemmingAttack
You have to understand the situation Finland is in. The want to dissuade anyone (Russia) from ever trying to lay its grubby paws on them.
sikanof
We rarely send troops to crisis areas. A small amount of conscripts specially trained for it go after their 1 year service
spudpicker
I'm not sure where I stand on mandatory service, but at least rich and poor are treated equally.
CountessVonFingerbang
I think I like the concept of mandatory civil service. There are things besides the military (National Park Service, etc) that could count?
whisperio
Ah sorry, awkward wording. School is mandatory for 9 years, after that 2/3 (or maybe more nowadays) attend secondary education.
vampirehedgehog
The thing is, in FInland free education and mandatory service are in no way tied together. It's fair to give free education, it's fair 1/?
vampirehedgehog
to conscript people in a small country bordering Russia, it's fair to have a volunteer army in a large, geographically secure country 2/?
vampirehedgehog
like the US, it's not at all fair to pay an arm and a leg for education in a developed country. 3/3
LordIndica
Its just unlucky tht the logistics and costs associated with offering higher education t EVERYONE (even in a developed nation) is so complex
definitelynotawolf
Vampirehedgehog for president
mikey6gun
700 EU or 814 US barely covers rent here in the States. You might find a nice cardboard box for 600.
AreYouWannaDie
In Finland we also have social safety net or whatever it's called, basically if you have less than 500 euro left after paying rent, (1)
AreYouWannaDie
electricity and whatever medication you might need, the government pays you money to stabilize this so that you always have 500 euro left(2)
mikey6gun
Yeah, we don't really have any of that here in the US. Your average 'Murican probably has less than 100 in their bank. It's sad dude/ette.
AreYouWannaDie
for necessities, like clothing, food, internet etc, whatever you wanna spend it on really. You just need to send them bank statements.
Sfinski
Wait what? 700? I got barely 500 when I were studying... And people say they've cut the benefits...
FPB94
Yeah but they are much more restrictive on who gets in.
Sfinski
Who are?
FPB94
Finns. College acceptance rate is much lower.
Sfinski
Lower than? And seems fine to me. If not too open when there's not jobs even for those graduating now...
sikanof
Did you have a student loan? 700-800€/mo sounds like student benefits + loan. I'm currently studying w/o a loan and get ~500.
Sfinski
I got my loan paid as one sum, 3300 or something that's for a year(?). Could be a loan part or like tvih there said unemployment benefit...
Sfinski
instead of student one.
shorr
You take it as a chunk, but the amount if counted by month. So you just take out x months
whisperio
Mine falls under unemployment benefits. Over 30yo and school aims for a new profession, so it's a tad higher than basic student benefits
dokpsy
To put this into perspective, my last semester of two classes came out to $2000 usd plus books and I'm at a very cheap community college
Sfinski
Well at least you'll get proper wage after graduation, I assume.
ATribeofAfricanNatives
No. I got a 2 year degree in science- no gave a flying shit about it. It's only a stepping stone to the 4 yr degree
dokpsy
I'm currently working in the field that I'm studying for. Have gotten wage increased twice in the past ten years. Mostly due to quitting
Sfinski
Never in my life gotten a raise. Though have been working only a bit under 4 years...
definitelynotawolf
I’ve twice been promoted by threatening to quit.
jetflight
Mandatory conscription also means under-trained soldiers with low motivation and combat morale, so there's that.
VodkaReindeer
Has a country fought a war with an evenly matched opponents using only professional forces?
ComradeSillyOtter
Not true, there have been effective conscript forces through history.
jetflight
Of course - usually when facing other conscript armies. Against a professional, volunteer force, however...
ComradeSillyOtter
But conscript armies can be professional, they have existed in the past and have defeated volunteer groups in addition.
TheAnswerWasAlwaysMoreLube
Conscripts are for defence against a superior military. All nordic nations only use professional soldiers in international operations.
darkdragonempress
Not necessarily. The nations that do this do train them decently from what I understand. And as it's a cultural norm the low motivation 1
jetflight
I come from a country where it's the cultural norm and mandatory - most of those forces would crumble pretty fast precisely for that.
darkdragonempress
Probably wouldn't exist at any higher levels then volunteers using it just as a means to an end. 2
Elsuave
Less wars??? Neat.
moih
If only
creepwood
Maybe you never heard of the winter war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
jetflight
You mean the war of volunteers supported by conscripts vs barely trained armed mob with tech they failed to utilize properly?
muhvitus
And as for the winter war, finns repeated the effort in 1944 against veteran Soviet Armies.
muhvitus
Last battle of the war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ilomantsi
muhvitus
There is no morale issue in Finland. Finns have the highest will to defend their country in Europe.
muhvitus
80% answer yes to question that are you willing to fight war in situation where the outcome is uncertain. This means participate in fighting
TheAnswerWasAlwaysMoreLube
The same mob that won over nazi germany?
jetflight
Yes. By using the advanced tactic of "We have reserves".
VodkaReindeer
Turns out Ukrainian mobs are more effective in Ukraine than in a Finnish forest.
whisperio
True and I'm all for professional forces, but still I like this system more than the US. Norway/Denmark moved to paid service and do well
creepwood
Norway and Denmark is still conscription army
moih
Norway: "In practice recruits are not forced to serve, instead only those who are motivated are selected" -Wikipedia
creepwood
Yes still it's conscription
donorkort
2:but would draft in case of for example a defensive war.
donorkort
Depends on which part of the army you're referring to. Denmark only sends professional troops to international operations,
creepwood
Read up before you claim shit
creepwood
How's that even relevant to whisperos statement? he said something that's not true, end of story
fluffOpAnimal
Has there ever been a plan to join Finish, Swedish, Norwegian, and Danish armed forces in a way such as the ANZACs?
RFSavage
Norway and Denmark are in NATO. Sweden and Finland are not.