TheDaharMaster
129579
3446
145
I split these up into separate images since it was 1 long post and was difficult to read.
Fishkeeper
Really gotta pick up a lot of society and shake it upside-down until it stops being quite so shit, I think.
echonite
Hey... I could watch the sun rise a million times. Shit will always be magical and breathtaking.
Kiirdel
Now, my brain isn't everyone's brain, but agency doesn't remove the unknown for me. In soccer you are the actor as you kick towards the goal, but it doesn't make it boring that you don't know if the goalie will catch it or not. I'm on the edge of my seat when I bare my heart to someone. I also like good romance stories, they are just uncommon. Certain contrivances are accepted by most people, but I hate that stuff. Some of this post is at minimum an interesting perspective though.
semiAutomaticFun
Yup and been there as a woman.
crazyspelling
This. Like the difference between following your favorite soccer team and watching a scripted, formulaic movie about a soccer team you know is going to win.
ChelChehalem
This will probably get buried in the comments, but please remember that the perspective is on the Western concept of love/romance. The gendered roles are not genetic or biologically determined, but cultural constructs. How we conceive of love and romance today is only a few centuries old at best, and very much a European cultural creation. That being said, the post is still really good within this context.
loismustdie
Can you give historical or cultural examples where the usual/typical courting did not involve men demonstrating or providing resources/value towards women to woo them, showing they can provide material and/or physical security in a future partnering?
gernerdnurse
Its hard to find examples for that if Most of the world lives under patriachy for ages.. how should women provide for someone If they are not allowed to own stuff. Since the rise of Feminism you can see that courting behaviour changing in real time
MrRandom314159
I feel like our current society puts the initiation pressure on men, but the maintenance of the relationships on women.
QueenOfTheFey
I agree, but I also think society doesn't value the hidden labour women have to put into the initial part of the relationship, because the visible labour is more obviously male.
phisteen
Please explain further. As a guy I only see my side of this(planning all the dates, making all the advances, initiating nearly everything.) I would like to know what the hidden labor is in this situation?
QueenOfTheFey
We'll start by ignoring the general safety stuff, cuz it's depressing, and start with appearances. Women have to put a lot more effort into their outfits, men can throw on a pair of jeans and a tshirt, and there's rarely an issue but studies show that men unconsciously perceive women who wear the same clothes multiple times as less clean and lazy, and there's a societal expectation that women "step up" their usual look for a date that doesn't exist in the same way for men. This means+
QueenOfTheFey
+coordinating an outfit, hair, and potentially makeup (all without usually knowing what the activity is so ones got to be extra strategic) Society also has a real stigma about hair on women, so shaving pits, legs, cooch, plucking brows and facial hair, ect is also expected. Some high class women that also means booking appointments and stuff, but we'll assume a low maintenance woman for this, so just regular effort at home but it's still a lot.
QueenOfTheFey
No, a lot of dudes (most) do not have emotional networks and safety nets, so they rely on the women in their lives to be take on the emotional load (usually unconsciously) and that can start before there's even a first date. Women are trained from a young age to listen, empathize, caretake, show contentiousness, remember, pay attention, validate, hold space, etc. Men are not. So while a dudes thinking "ah, I've got to make the first move/kiss her" women are usually 3 hrs deep into validating-
Youareincorrectsir
This is why feminism is so important, its one of the few, if not the only instance where norms are being fought against. There should ve less "woman" and "man" norms!!
ElecTech
In the song A Good Heart is Hard to Find there are the lines: As I reflect on all my childhood dreams. My ideas of love weren't as foolish as they seem. Seems to agree with this. Myself, having done the compromise of work, and only getting abusers, have gone back to only accepting someone who wants me for me. Still waiting.
quadraspaz1
I didn't know about that song til I started working at a garden centre a few years back and it was on their limited playlist and I thought wow this is an incel song from before incels we're even seen as a thing
Spidermonkey969696
I think it can be difficult to tell incels and real male abuse survivors apart because incels like to cosplay as abuse survivors, but having a habit of dating people who are abusive is a thing for all genders of abuse victims. So it's possible the song is more about how hard it is for him specifically to find a healthy love instead of the idea that all women are horrible and that's why romance sucks.
yallmfsneedjesus
Meatloaf also pointed out he would do anything for love, but he wouldn't do that. Same message, to the point.
Illyriel
I'm not saying romance is a bad thing, but what I've found is that my SO and I thrive because we are ourselves in our relationship, without expectations for more. We don't do romantic gestures towards each other, but love one another, faults and all. Small stuff like hugs, kisses or compliments, or we cook a really nice meal together, maybe. My favorite "special" occasions are long drives when we listen to music and sing together. He's my best friend. We're in this together as a team.
datphone777365
Given some of the queer media on youtube that describes how the "butch" of the same sex couple has to act in the relationship is wager the feeling is the same for the socalled "guy" in the relationship. But yeah i would 100 percent rather be alone then alone in a relationship of "what have you done for me lately" sort. Luckly im with someone that wants to be with me, hope the majority of you are too.
Ryebread91
While I wouldn't say I watch romance movies I do love seeing romance develop in a movie or show and have always automatically placed my wife and I in said romance.
yoked
As a gay man, this put into words my disappointment with gay dating. I've grown up being told through media that men pursue and men romance. So when men are not active towards me it makes me feel unwanted. I often take up the active role because in my experience most gay men do not. I always try to make my partner feel special but I don't feel it back. I long for the day a man actively pursues me. Also, showing romantic interest in gay dating generally causes you to be labeled "crazy."
charondaboatman
Because the ones that succeed are unrealistic and the ones that fail are soul crushingly sad.
gearsmith
It reminds me of a study done a while back involving three groups of mindset regarding longeveity. Apparently optimists tend to live longest, pessimists seem to average out, and realists tend to live shorter lives.
Emiloo74
Oh. As a realist, that doesn't surprise me.
gearsmith
It just helps show you the truth that the world is an even shittier place than that which a pessimist can imagine :-)
gandraw
For some reason (as a guy), Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is my favorite love story.
hawkeye2816
I would disagree slightly. The "entitled man" is one who believes he doesn't need to take women's desires into account. The "grown up" man knows that his desires aren't the be-all-end-all of a relationship. In other words, immature men believe they are the sole head of the relationship, while grown up men recognize it's a partnership.
Other than that, yeah. As a man, I can absolutely resonate with the idea that romance is a verb for men and a noun for women. I blame Disney.
TheAnimalLady
I really think two things can be real here. Toxic masculinity hurts men, and what I mean by that is that this relatively modern idea that men shouldn't have Emotions ™️ has resulted in them believing they don't deserve to have or express them. That results in them...not doing that, and therefore, women who feel unloved, unappreciated, undesirable, and taken for granted. Modern romance media portrays a man who is both in touch with his feelings FOR HER, and "traditionally" strong. So (1/2)
TheAnimalLady
(2/2) Where we end up is generations of men not believing they deserve to feel the whole of the human spectrum of emotion, and being stunted for it; and generations of women hurt, let down, and AFRAID of men because of their behaviour. This results in poor treatment of each from both, and different types of media cater to each subset. "Romance" to women that have borne abuse and lack of care, and "sex and obedience" to men that have been told they aren't men unless they feel that way. Hot take.
azarza
i have come across far more men who say they are 'not allowed to feel' versus 'don't deserve'..
Winkston
I (male) have been with my partner (female) for about 10 years now. I don't have to work for her love like I had to with my earlier partners. I'm the happiest I've ever been, but I'm still a little bit confused about this. She often tells me she loves me, but I still need to ask from time to time if everything is ok between us because she isn't demanding or asking me for anything. I wonder if I ever fully get used to being loved just for being myself.
TheInfalliblePhallus
I hope these roles are evolving. In my circle, women definitely put out as much effort as the men do. I haven't seen this kind of archaic thinking in a long time. My experience is not everyone's experience, but I thought I would contribute. I pursued my husband more than he pursued me. It is different for every person and every relationship, or I guess, potential relationship. If a man feels this way, maybe he shouldn't pursue women who expect him to fill that role.
greyghost714
I've never been exposed to any of Tate's writing but I assume this post by OP is a common view among his followers. It really comes across as a very religious view of relationships where women are property. We're in a very confusing time right now where the old patriarchy is being heavily challenged. This post is an example of the old patriarchal view that many still use as a frame of reference for life.
semiAutomaticFun
Yes!
Fatbird
You're absolutely not wrong, and it is an archaic way of thinking. But the thing is, a tremendous number of people are archaic(not derogatory, just life). Your way of thinking is a lot more prevalent under a certain age and within certain geographical boundaries(city folk!). But his way of thinking is a lot more prevalent over a certain age, and within *different* geographical boundaries(country folk).
TheInfalliblePhallus
That makes sense. I live on the west coast of the States in a fairly liberal leaning area. I don't live in Portland, but a college town, which also helps. I am a true Millennial. I'm 36 at the moment.
alsweigart
Yeah, I have trouble looking at all the effort my women friends put into relationships and calling that "passive" and "being acted upon", as if being taken out to dinner and picking up the check were the extent of dating and relationships.
Fiacre54
Would you say that some or much of the effort your friends put into a relationship is done in an attempt to get the man to change his behaviors?
QueenOfTheFey
This entire post is very genx/boomery to me. It doesn't fit any of the relationships/people that I know or any of the stats that we've seen through sociological examination. But that doesn't mean it's not true to OP's experience. Or the views of many men. So if it gives men comfort (and hopefully raises the bar off the floor in hell) then all the power to them.
Emiloo74
As a Gen Xer, yeah. Some of us are archaic af. Others of us understand love is mutual and not resources-based. I just...ugh.
QueenOfTheFey
I have found that. It's weird but Gen X seems to be split perfectly down the middle. Some cling to conservative values like if they don't the devil himself will come up and slap them down to hell, and the other half are like "I'm gonna do everything I can to be better than the generations before us". And there's like no in between
Emiloo74
I don't disagree with you. I think the lack of middle ground comes from how we grew up and our experiences as adults.
DuncanWilsonAuthor
As a GenXer, good, glad it's changing on average. May younger generations depart so far from this toxic model that they not recognize it at all.
Drishna
This is anecdotal but from a millenial in a conservative area it was like this when I was in my teenage years/20s.
QueenOfTheFey
Yuck, that's unfortunate. Conservatives suuuuuck, down with kyriarchal nonsense!
Drishna
You made me look up a word and i'm unsure how to feel about it.
QueenOfTheFey
It's a good word!
TheOvy
I reject the very premise -- the Manic Pixie Dream Girl and its adjacent tropes are the thrill that men find in romantic fiction.
Pigswithstripes
I was always the active part in my marriage. He didn't even want me in the beginning. I called him, I asked him out... I never got a valentines day gift from him and don't expect this. But he still doesn't like romance storys. So I guess even if men experience the other side, they might just feel lucky but don't see the beauty in watching such a story.
Pigswithstripes
And I tell you what. Although I was the active part I enjoyed every bit of the story unfolding. It felt great having the lead. So girls, go for it!
DavidBrooker
While I'm not sure I agree with the whole of the post, the idea that 'agency removes magic' has an unexpected parallel I've actually read a lot about: baseball. In sociology, 'magic' is any set of actions you take to produce an outcome where you have no actual evidence of its effectiveness (or, often, evidence that it is *not* effective). In baseball, offensive actions are associated with magic, while defensive actions are not. That is, even for the same individual player, when they are at 1/2
bububub2
I will say knowing how things work only makes them more magical for me, but I've also learned that makes me built different than most people.
MadnerKami
I absolutely agree. The explanation of real things working as they do, is the difference between a cacophony of sounds that vaguely sound like a musical piece and a composition. If anything, the mechanics behind Earth moving around Sol is even more magical to me, than "some god is riding in a chariot". That shit is a really mundane bore.
DavidBrooker
bat (where the odds of making it to base is about one in three), they engage in many 'magical' routines, superstitions, that are meant to invoke luck. Meanwhile, that player when fielding (where the odds of successfully *preventing* the batter of getting to base is two-in-three) view their success as determined by skill, action, and choice, not by luck, and in turn does not engage in anywhere near as much superstitious behavior. 2/2
WhatsAHoya
Erm, defenders don't engage in superstitious behaviors to "help" them perform better? Then can you please tell me why there is about a whole stadium worth of pitchers who refuse to step on the baselines when heading to and from the dugout? Or perhaps why there are fielders who carve things into the dirt before every game? This analogy is just a little off-base...
ianstyp
You're getting down voted a lot, but yeah you can see fielders partake in superstitious behaviors all the time. I imagine batters' routines are a lot more noticeable since you see them go up to bat and they're going have their shot, whereas there are 9 people out on the field and it's not as deterministic. Plus with league-wide WHIFF rates increasing, we're seeing the ball in play less and less.
DavidBrooker
I believe I said 'not nearly as much' rather than none, and the collective defensive team rather than any variation among positions, but sure.
WhatsAHoya
I'm still really not sure how you came to that conclusion. Athletes, in general, are often quite superstitious. It really has no limitation to a given sport, position, or game situation. And if you have data to support this very bold assertion you made so confidently, I would very much love to see it.
DavidBrooker
I still am not sure where I suggested anywhere that superstition was absent anywhere? I thought I only mentioned that it varies in different situations. It certainly isn't my own conclusion, and has been the subject of a lot of study. For instance, https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?cites=1317542767154938875 - I don't recall if there is data in the document here, but it has been somewhat influential on future literature.
TheDrunkenBulldog
There are a lot of baseball observers (vs players) down voting you. The camera is ALWAYS on the batter. This skews the data, but your are right.
ahorseelbowdeepinme
Oooh, that makes some sense. It's not going to line up as true for all men or maybe even most men but there's parts that each of us may recognize in ourselves. The younger generations maybe a bit more in touch with their emotions. The love story I remember getting melty about as a boy was c.s.lewis "The Horse and His Boy" which I swear has nothing to do with my username. I think it was my first book where the girl was on more equal footing with the boy and not just a damsel in distress
MaelstromSama
You say otherwise, but your username just can't be a coincidence.
ahorseelbowdeepinme
The boy is going to be sold into slavery when he meets a talking horse. The two of them decide to run away to Narnia and make friends along the way including a princess that is constantly butting heads with him. In the end it talks about them getting married and still having some big fights. Something about it felt so real like "yes, this is what true love is. Not that happily ever after nonsense"
MRDOne
A lot of truth in this post. Subject to your personal interpretation too.
FallingStar7669
It is also subject to trends; in a chivalrous patriarchy, it is very close to the mark. As society progresses toward equality, it dilutes.
tgeliot
Yes. I, a boomer, can attest that this isn't as true as it used to be. And that's a good thing.
ahorseelbowdeepinme
Yeah, like I said the newer generations seem to be abandoning the long-held ideas of a man's role. It never really worked for me but I kinda feel bad for all the people who are caught in the transition. It must be a difficult time to be a young man
dwarfinathonginacaskinthewaterwoooo
For me it was Walter Mitty
DanimalRC
Great call!
shano510
That movie changed my life. It inspired me in ways I didn't know I needed.
NotACanadian
Yeah, there's a reason the "manic pixie dream girl" is such a popular trope. As a kid, those self-actualized girls that knew themselves and were happy to take you along for the ride made me swoon. Though I was also into the "try to win their favor" romances too.
smorsdoeuvres
smorsdoeuvres
Or perhaps not I didn’t realize there would be whole articles on this archetype https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/07/the-real-world-consequences-of-the-manic-pixie-dream-girl-clich-233/277645/
NotACanadian
Yeah, the male equivalent is also extremely ubiquitous in female-centric romances. Doesn't mean they're not fun when you're the target demographic :p
ahorseelbowdeepinme
You ever see the music video for Shutup and Dance With Me? https://youtu.be/6JCLY0Rlx6Q?si=wgSzPmOgSi4S5nWP
smorsdoeuvres
I had not seen the video but I’ve definitely heard the song. Thank you for sharing this. I think for my generation the ethos would then be best described by short skirt long jacket? A lady who prefers being independent &/or taking the lead? Or am I still confused https://youtu.be/85zV1fpSJQ0?si=NPZtDkdnCHxlavba
ahorseelbowdeepinme
Ha, I didn't need the link but appreciate it. Love me some cake. Hmm... she doesn't have to be a badass boss lady. Maybe the girl from fern gully? Someone who excells at having a good time and can pull you into her fun but doesn't need you for it
ahorseelbowdeepinme
In high-school this girl went out of her way to be my friend. We got pretty flirty. I didn't know it was a set up at the time but she got one of her friends to say something like "oh my God, why don't you two just date already?" And she said "no, he's not interested in dating me." Totally asking me out but putting the ball in my court. Such a baller move. This June will be our 24th wedding anniversary
YokoOhNoUDint
mdizzly
lol I would still have missed that - would have thought it meant she wasn't interested but was trying to be polite about it 😂
spontaneous9
Same. Hints fly over my head like migrant geese fleeing a blizzard. Learning to filter the noise from the signal enough to actively resist being toyed with did not come to me quickly or easily. I need to be invited, or I'm not going.
PirateRubberDuck
Almost exactly the same thing happened to me in college. I don't think she asked her friend, but maybe she was more sneaky about it. I messed up that relationship though after 3 months. I am glad it worked out for you.
ahorseelbowdeepinme
22! 22 anniversary. It's late here
NotACanadian
I love seeing the stories from old guys who talk about how their wives were the ones that initiated it all. Happiest couples I ever met
ahorseelbowdeepinme
Up intensifies
OnomatopoeicOnanisma
As a guy who reads lots of romance I think this is partly true but as others have said partly out of date and over-gendered. For me, I enjoy all kinds of romance where it feels genuine, each character has real agency and emotion, and there is a special 'magic' between them where you feel true love in the story.
A lot of published romance is formulaic tripe, cheap and easy to consume but ultimately unsatisfying.
HOOMANGUY
As a man that actually enjoyed twighlight (the books): Romance is a gendered activity you get made fun off if done by a man. I never watched romantic movies - while at the same age scouring any media for naked people :) Simply because its a girls genre. Now at the age of 33 and as an open bisexual, I see how society inhibits that part in men through toxic gender expectations.
HitsuneYamagoto
I am a cis-man, and I fucking love romance media. Nowadays I largely enjoy romcom anime but I used to like watching hallmark movies with my mother (yeah, I know).
CrusherOfCities
I'd contend that western men enjoying romcom anime might actually align with the author's perspective, given the different stereotypes and themes presented in Japanese stories vs western. Your love of hallmark movies is definitely a valid counterpoint, though.
allnewuserforyou
Fellow cis-het bro here, and watching romcoms with your mom is f*cking awesome.
AoShin
Fellow Adult Cis-Male here. I fucking love watching Rom-Com anime. I think they're so fucking sweet. (Shout out to "Horimiya" and "Kaguya-sama: Love Is War").
HitsuneYamagoto
Aaaaahh, Horiyama is so good. Maybe my favorite. The Rascal does not Dream series and ToraDora are strong competitors though. Oh, and My Dress-Up Darling.
AoShin
I loved ToraDora first watch, and then I watched it 10 years later once I had a fair few relationships and found their relationship very toxic and unhealthy, which ruined any enjoyment.
HitsuneYamagoto
Yeah, I could see that and fair enough. Part of my enjoyment of things like anime is that fantastical situations can be okay and normal for that show's world.
On the other hand, part of what I love so much about Rascal does not Dream and Horimiya is that, while the circumstances are crazy, the way they handle their interpersonal relationships are very mature and respectful.
So I guess I like both sides of that coin.
warriorofdiscord
I don't think the guy in the OP is saying it is universally true for ALL men. It's a general rule-of-thumb that applies to the majority of men. Consider yourself a bit unique in that sense.
Spidermonkey969696
As a cis-woman, that kind of attitude is way more attractive to me than all of this "work" crap that the OP says men are supposed to do.
warriorofdiscord
What... what? What do you mean "work crap"? The commenter in the OP is explaining how the dating relationship dynamic works from a typical male's perspective and contrasting it with a typical female's perspective. Him explaining the differences isn't meant to be attractive to you... Your comment is just really strange and doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Spidermonkey969696
The OP's contast with a "typical females perspective" reads more to me like what he thinks women want instead of what most women actually want. To me, a woman, a man who views romance as something you experience with others is way more attractive than a man who thinks romance is a transaction. The OP thinks most women want his labour (the work crap), when I think most women (and people) want a partner, someone to experience romance with as an equal give and take.
Spidermonkey969696
The flip side of the coin is how some women often think men want beauty over all else, so they get plastic surgery, or wear lots of make up or flashy clothes. (Note, not all women who do those things do it for that purpose, only some do). From my observations, that's not really what most men actually want. They want someone to rely on, who also relies on them, emotionally and physically. Shared emotional vulnerability and support. Someone to build a life with. Romance is just the path to love.
Spidermonkey969696
IMO, men do like romance in general, think of all the bromance media, those tend to follow the same plot arcs as traditional romances. It's just that many men are often bullied (by everyone) into fearing emotional intimacy in all but a few contexts: parent/child, no-homo male friendships, and with thier sexual partners. Even in those contexts emotional intimacy is often punished in men. So many men have bad experiences associated with emotional intimacy and traditional romance is full of it.
Ezzy666
I know a few men who like romcoms. I never did. They remind me of the novelas I grew up watching with my mom but without the murder, wrongful incarceration and baby stealing
drbwaa
I don't see the point of gendering the discussion like this. Of course feeling wanted is better than feeling like your relationship is a transaction.
Mostlydeadpool
If you pay for things you don't want to buy, it's transactional. if you sleep with people you don't want to please, it's transactional. Genuine desire is when you're happy to do the paying and also the sleeping.
datphone777365
Id argue its happy to be offering to pay but not obligated to and also sleeping. Your version is still transactional.
whyforetho
I presume it's gendered because the discussion topic is about the real-world influence of fictional depictions of romance in popular media, which is heavily gendered.
Fishkeeper
Society has expectations for people based on gender, which shapes, among other things, how people behave when trying to court each other. Men don't behave as described above because it's an inherent Man Thing, they (sometimes) behave as described above because that's what they've always been taught they're supposed to do, and because it's what (sometimes) works.
datphone777365
This, look at how romance media is structured there is the wooer and the wooed. boys are constantly told that if they are nice to girls girls will like them while girls are told to find a "nice" boy.
Fishkeeper
And it is important to note that gender role expectation and the shapes it pushes people into. It's a bullshit expectation, but it does exist, so we can't just ignore it if we're discussing a thing that society treats differently depending on gender.
arrogantengineer
If you accept the premise that like/dislike of romance novels is gendered, which was the actual original question, you have to confront it somehow.
LjubljanaJeNajlepseMestoNaSvetu
Of course there is a point. The person is speaking from a declared steriotypical point of wiew for the man woman dynamic as a response to a gendered question. Gender is an impostant sociatal element in our society and as such is werry much part of this discussion.
Lontri
I'm a bit lost for words here. I don't know what kind of women y'all have dated, but I'm definitely not passive. I can't speak for all women, since I'm just one person, but holy shit. Are you guys seriously saying that women don't do romantic gestures? I'm thinking back to all the romantic gestures I've done over the years, and I wonder if the guys who I did them for think that I was passive. Driving over and cooking a fast isn't very passive. Going out to get him his favourite donut.
Allrighty
Cooking someone a feast is an activity, sure, but it's not inherently a romantic one. It's doing exactly what the post says: you're very actively signalling availability and giving him plenty of opportunity to make a move; he still has to make the move.
Allrighty
I think you're missing the point threefold: firstly, no one is trying to blame women for something or accusing them of never doing anything for their partners. It's about providing perspective from a different point of view. Secondly, the point is about a developing romance, not about being in a relationship. And thirdly, whether or not you do something for the other is besides the point there; what matters is how overtly it communicates romantic interest.
Lontri
I'd also like to add that I'm tired of this attitude from men, that the things they do are so much more important and valuable etc. than the things women do. I had a guy ragequit on me last week because in his opinion he had done more for the team, so his opinion should've mattered more than mine (I'm team leader). He was in charge of one bigger task, whereas I'm in charge of over 20 tasks (some big, some small). I was here when the team was started years ago, he joined 6 months ago.
Hyzaku
That's just a self-centered asshole though. They come in every flavor of person.
Lontri
Going over as planned and surprising him with sexy lingerie. Getting him a big birthday present, pizza and cake after just 2 weeks of dating. Taking him out for a picnic in the park. Taking care of him when he's sick. Setting up Christmas for him when he's into it but you aren't. There's so many things I've done for guys over the years, i could sit here for quite a while listing them all. Again though, I dunno what kinds of women y'all date, or is it that you don't appreciate what we do?
RecurringNightmare
that sounds like the "in a relationship" phase, while the above post is more about the "just dating" phase...if you go into relationship mode and do big gestures after two weeks thats quick and i really hope the guy knew to appreciate that...but i can confirm, for the "just dating" phase its really mostly on the guy to do the romantic work, in terms of time money and effort, while women are mostly like "im not sure" "i have other options" "you gotta convince me"...so while all the above is both>
RecurringNightmare
> a simplification and a generalization, it holds true, women see romance as an adventure, something exciting happening to them, while men see it as a chore, something they have to do in order to get their reward, may that be just sex or an actual functional relationship...hence the different interest in romance stories...<<<
rahbben
Thank you..love this. And same here! I would go all out for my guy, but he rarely seemed to appreciate it. In no way have I taken a passive role in a relationship. This is such bs.
knuckledeepinacatgirl
There is a bit of both at play in all honesty. Some of it can be who they have dated in the past and that leaves a imprint, but not fully appreciating things is a pretty hefty factor. Its not out of malice (in general) just lack of awareness. Some stuff is expected in a relationship to men, and so those things don't tend to be viewed in a romantic light, this can cut both ways as well so they might view some of what they do that you see as romantic as "just doing what I'm supposed to." 1/2
knuckledeepinacatgirl
While I disagree with some of the posts points, it is true that men in general feel like they have to be the ones being proactive rather then reactive, and when you flip the script on them, they don't always know how to take it, and that can again lead to not appreciating it. A good example is who makes the first move, men know how hard it can be, BUT for some (stupid) reasons its considered way easier for a woman to make the first move, so the effort and anxiety they know is there is ignored.
Hyzaku
You're right, none of that is passive. It's fantastic that you take such an active positive interest in your romantic relationship(s). Sadly, there's both highly passive people in the dating pool (of every flavor) and people who don't understand how active relationships work. There are millennia of bad relationship advice still being passed around as if it were still relevant and correct today. We should focus on teaching good relationship habits and behaviors instead of slamming people.
HypnagogicHallucinations
Sure it's not possible to represent everyone, but make no mistake, this is insightful. You can pick away at the details, because it's complex and nuanced. Nonetheless, if you did not know this is happening, now you do.
pareidoliaperson
...tl:dr?
GloveFullaVaseline
Agreed. Very interesting.
InfographicProject
It is a perspective but I think a bland rather than insightful one. Particularly considering OPs question, the reason men don’t like romance storylines is not because they view romance as work IMO.
KuroFluff
Agreed. Well said.
Thesdalos
Agreed, I started a bit appalled by the generalization but at the last bit, I almost cried by how accurate it is in some parts to how I grew up. And that is not an overstatement, I have tears in my eyes.
FrostyLady
The initial query just happened to open a door; offering that which is maybe not commonly considered. From this, I take and I learn; as a woman, how can I do and understand better.
Many of us came up in a culture of very specific gender roles, which I feel has damaged what we could naturally be to each other as partners; gender notwithstanding. We're navigating our way out of that, I think; we're trying to see equality in potential partners. This logically approached sharing moves us forward.
slinkydust
My biggest issue with dating is there are multiple ways that I just assume she is no longer interested. I texted her a few times in a row or made a gesture with no response, no longer interested. I take action and wait or give up which is probably why I can't get past a couple dates. Man what I would give for someone to reciprocate interested in me.
rusrsdude
Reading this from an outsider perspective seems like you might just be insecure about yourself. Do you happen to find yourself uninteresting? Treat women as people first, and not potential partners and be genuine about it. This advice goes for both genders, of course. You need to form a genuine bond with someone in order to have a long term commitment with them.
FrostyLady
Well said!
TheFoodBaby
I think it's a bit archaic to see the man as the giver and the woman as the taker, if we put it into other terms which is why I don't buy into sappy love stories, because they are unrealistic and I tend to prefer tragic love stories. Personally I think the example of Pam and Jim is a horrible love story, but that's another discussion. All relationships are different, but great ones are balanced in giving and receiving.
thermodaemonics
I agree. This is a singular description where there is a wide range of different individuals with different experiences and different expectations. But this captures differences in active versus passive engagement that correlated very strongly with gender a couple generations ago - less now (I hope). This might be "the" answer for a few, but I think for many others it's still a useful reference point.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Spidermonkey969696
Uhhh, no its not. In non-patriarcal societies, historically and those that are still surviving, this male pursuit idea doesn't hold true. So it's our social systems that cause it, not biology. If you want a partner that doesn't subscribe to gender roles in a relationship, seek out individuals who reject gender roles outside of relationships too.
CongratsYouAreHereNow
Can you give some examples of these societies?
rusrsdude
I'm unsure why you're getting downvoted.. i think this might be a good discussion point. Imo it's probable that both nature AND nurture cause these gender norms. Society obviously plays a huge role, so it shouldn't be ignored. Can't blame everything on our genes with this.
Spidermonkey969696
I think I get down voted by people who want to blame it on something out of thier control so that they don't have to feel any responsibility in fixing the problem. Or it's just because I said the word patriarchy? Who knows.
I appreciate that you heard my point tho. Your right that I may be underestimating nature. I'm always amazed by the stories from people who take hormones about how much the hormones affect moods and thoughts.
JoeT85
Chris Rock was correct in the statement that men are loved on the condition that they provide something.
Arbitrarynamehere
Hate when incels accidentally agree with criticizing patriarchal structures
nomadengineer
Not just by individuals, but by society as well .
AtomicCometLauncher
Everyone is loved on the condition they provide something. Anything less is a crush at best, not love. None of us get anything for free. Relationships are work. Sometimes what people provide isn't tangible, but it's there. And men have it worse in this aspect, yes, but the inverse of that is men feeling like they own women for what they provide. So it sucks for everyone. And in some ways it's good for everyone, if it were rebalanced. No one should be lazy in a relationship.
Arbitrarynamehere
I think they meant financially provide something.
fabibihabibi
Women too.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
Except that as a woman, falling in love is definitely not passive. I don't know why that assumption is being made, at all. Guys see the initial asking out of a girl as the "start", but I can tell you that girls absolutely start flirting and getting the attention of guys they're interested in way before anyone asks anyone out. The whole premise of this is wrong. Maybe women like romance stories because they *don't* have all the work and disappointment that they do in real life. They're fantasy.
applesforjuice
Flirting and getting attention is not active. Yes it is something you yourself are actively doing, but it doesn't change the relationship between the two people actively. If two people just flirted and got each other's attention, what would their relationship be? Whatever it was before they did that.
[deleted]
[deleted]
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
I completely disagree. I'm sorry that some guys don't get flirting, but a lot do. That's why women still use it. And I love the implication in your comment that women don't put any work into making men happy. Unbelievable.
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
crazyspelling
I 100% see the flirting, and 80% of the time it's a reflection of how the woman was raised and chooses to interact with the world (i.e., she's "a flirt"), and 20% of the time it's a purposeful demonstration of romantic interest (i.e., "she's flirting *with me*, on purpose").
crazyspelling
Then, of that 20%, I need to quickly figure out "does she just want my attention for short term entertainment or gain" or "does she actually like me"?
GloveFullaVaseline
This is a good point. I'm a guy... The whole premise that we don't like romance stories is a false one. There are too many factors to generalize like this, and one of many is that women don't have to put anything into it. Now, there are many interesting and valid points in the op thread, but the dynamics are too many to be able to dial it down. In the end, we like what we like. I cry all the time now at sappy love shit. Twenty years ago I wouldn't have. Have kids? Lost a spouse? Shit changes.
spontaneous9
Agreed.
BourbonandLust
You're probably right. I'm trying to figure out why I don't like all the Hallmark/romance stuff my wife likes and I suppose it's because it all seems so...fake? Disillusioned and unrealistic? It's easy to accept the fiction in the sci-fi/fantasy stuff I read because I've never experienced the reality of it. In romance, I know MY reality and, yeah the books are missing all the work that makes it believable. Though I do think that might take away from the intended warm and fuzzy feeling.
crazyspelling
Not to mention that almost all love stories are actually about crushes, and other people's crushes vary from "cute" to "cringe," and very very few are worth 90 minutes of my rapt attention.
theoneprevouslyknownas
Lots of romance is written lazily and predictably for sure, my husband doesn’t like when he can see the end of the movie within the first 10 mins because there’s no surprises.
slinkydust
The things that happen are convenient to move the plot. The guy is never rejected because he's perfect in every way. When there is a mistake or flaw it can be easily rectified usually by some grand romantic gestures "work" by the man.
freshthrowaway1138
I think you missed an entire section, the one where women send signals (flirting) that are completely missed by the guys. Only guys who are well trained and experienced in dealing with the romantic interest of women will even grasp that flirting is happening. And most guys will dismiss it (even if they pick it up) because they don't want to (yet again) be wrong about the woman's intention. Most guys have misinterpreted signals and have been very harshly rejected. "Flirting" is useless, use words
JustTheCats
Nonsense
mrose50
farfie
That or they don't want to be overbearing, or be taken for a creep. Granted, creeps exist. But a lot of young and insecure boys are afraid to be seen as creeps. Though that is also accounted for in the post, with them embarking on the journey to become for women, worthwhile men.
slinkydust
Sure, the old middle aged guys are never considered creeps. And from your logic not worthwhile because a woman hasn't accepted them
farfie
That's.. Not what I meant. Or what I said.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
Well, I've found it works really well, personally. Also that doesn't negate my point in any way.
freshthrowaway1138
Does it? Or do some guys pursue you automatically? Now, I'm not saying it never works, but for many many guys it does not.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
Of course some guys pursue on their own, but typically not the ones I'm interested in. So showing interest is the first step to getting together with the guys I'm interested in.
SavageDrums
Flirting is hardly useless.
freshthrowaway1138
For most guys, I'd say it is.
crazyspelling
Woah woah woah, are you saying that men don't understand and appreciate the work women do to start and maintain a romantic relationship? Say it ain't so! /s
PragmaticPrimate
Sure, but flirting is just flirting. It doesn't have to be serious or lead to anything. But all the steps that are more explicit, like asking someone out, acknowledging your interest, first kiss, sex are more serious and need you to deal with explicit rejection. Looking back, I noticed that in almost all cases I as a man had to do those steps (there were exceptions).
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
As a woman, I've done them all as well. And the only reason it was ever so one-sided is because women were told they would be sluts if they did any of it.
PragmaticPrimate
The whole slutshaming is horrible. And I very much dislike those traditional gender roles. I'm just annoyed that no matter what I believe, I'm still expected to perform such traditional masculinity. Because if I don't, apparently nothing will ever happen: No woman will ever hit on me or "escalate" any encounter. At least those are the experiences I made where I live. So because I currently lack confidence I've just given up on dating.
Lontri
I do find it a bit funny that guys here are saying that the things we DO are passive. Doing things isn't passive. Passive is not doing anything. Like, if I like a guy and I bring him his favourite donut (for example), is that passive? And when a guy brings me my favourite donut, is the same action now somehow aggressive? If I tell a guy that he has beautiful eyes, is that passive? And again, if a guy tells me my eyes are beautiful, is it now somehow aggressive?!
slinkydust
Did you go to all the social events asking multiple people out until one said yes? Did you plan the first date and most of the others? Did you set the mood or take the action to entice them? FFS I could count on one hand the times my ex planned a date or asked for sex. Did you propose to move in together or get married? This must surely be equivalent to you spending 10 minutes to go buy a donut that you put zero effort into.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
I know, exactly. The post is ignoring everything that women do so they can come to the conclusion that they're passive. It's actually pretty insulting. As if we just sit there and do nothing till the perfect guy comes along. I also got told flirting "doesn't count" because it doesn't work. Even if it didn't work, it still is active work being done. But it does work, so the whole statement makes no sense.
slinkydust
Since you didn't list them, what are they?
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
Basically the same things guys do. The only thing I've heard so far that's still gendered is the actual asking out, but when I was online dating I asked out every guy I dated on there. We planned dates mutually and split the bill. If anything, I was usually the one to have to travel further, because I had a car and most guys didn't. It's never been my experience that guys spend tons of time planning special outings and buying gifts and all that. That's pretty old-fashioned.
spontaneous9
Much of this feels grossly inaccurate to me. TBH, I can't even begin to explain how, because there's way too much presumptive thinking in this person's explanation.
jaehoony
100%
10001110101periodictablewithasantapieceofmind
After getting both perspectives in real life, no, this does not apply to every single relationship. It does, however, apply to the majority of traditional, cis-het relationships. The societal onus is on both genders here, both genders have grown up being told that the phenomenon in the post is good and right and normal and the way it should be. All of their romantic fantasies have been formatted like this since childhood, so they come to feel romance from it, and are confused in its absense.
sleepinggreenidea
The explanation is rather pat if you have certain assumptions about how gender roles REALLY work. It's... very Reddit.
skincancerisfun
It feels more like fantasy to me. Something people imagine is what happens, but really comes from watching TV. If it were true, I imagine there'd be more muscly guys walking around spouting poetry and doing hikes to secret spots where there is miraculously a picnic all set out
CptCaboose
The basis of the explanation might be the reason. When you see it in the biological sense. For a woman, engaging in a relationship holds more "danger" in a sense that the end game of a relationship is to have children. Being responsible for 2 lives is more responsibilities in the survival aspect. This is why it's the same with tons of other animal species. The male bird is in competition with other male, the female choose the best partner. The female is not in a "passive" seat.
CptCaboose
She has the responsibility to choose the best partner to support her when she won't be able to fend for herself, since she will need to feed and care for a child. For that reason, it totally make sense that women choose, men competes/dance to be selected. Again, that is the pure biological reason.
ObiWanKenobitch
Yeah they seem to be focusing on the biological imperatives that drive men and the areas of downfall that can cause but completely disregarding the fact that women have different imperatives and risks going in a relationship which dictate HER behavior just as well as he has his. It’s good to have both perspectives but this seems to have a bias on who carries the blame.
spontaneous9
Correct, & even when having kids isn't an option, the mindset of each role can often remain predominantly rooted in those same cultural presets due to vestiges of that primal gender-role disparity remaining. But in our case, neither of us were locked into that model. Her kids were flying the nest when we met. She'd been a mom since 20 (& a single mom since 25) & was done raising kids. This chapter was her awakening to life as an adult newly liberated from those responsibilities for her 1st time.
Mostlydeadpool
do you have a different experience? what would you suggest instead?
GravyEducation
I'm not the person you're responding to but recognizing that people are different seems like a solid start. I think it's more important to focus on the two (or more no judgment) individuals and how they live their lives, their needs and desires, rather than say "this is how it works" because since we're doing a little psychological thesis anyway it's a little reductive. Just to me. As a man myself I was reading it like "that's not what I've experienced" but hey if this rings true for you
spontaneous9
I wasn't looking. She asked me out following a casual music jam at a friend's. I initially turned her down, even (it was complicated; I don't do complicated). I'm okay alone although I get lonely like anyone else. So I worked on making myself a happy person while making room in my life for a mate & I kept a 2BR place even though I didn't need it, for years, in case that ever happened. She was a nice surprise. Were I a needy person she wouldn't have been drawn to me. Women can sense that stuff.
QueenOfTheFey
This also implies that women care more about men making huge sacrifices to who they are, and taking a huge burden to "be romantic" than you know...being treated like a human and not a mother/maid/sextoy. Where as, you certainly imply that you were able to be an equal partner in your relationship because you were able to be independent outside of one. Women like that shit.
Newfehotep
You think that not asking first doesn’t still map at all to taking active steps? Putting in effort to change and improving yourself (and your situation) to appeal more to a prospective partner is taking active steps. Just because you set boundaries doesn’t mean you aren’t following a familiar formula - it sounds a heck of a lot like the old “lawyer up, delete Facebook, hit the gym” memes. Maybe “retain agency, self actualize, improve yourself” isn’t as memeable but it’s the same ol dating advice
spontaneous9
I sense quite a bit of rage in your viewpoint, and I honestly hope you find peace in your heart someday. Thanks for sharing your personal journey.
Newfehotep
Rage? No.
I'm trying to say that you're quick to throw out the entire message because it "doesn't sound right" to your experience, while only the surface details of your story deviate from it.
Specifically, the last part of the post vibes with yours very strongly.
QueenOfTheFey
So why don't women get credit for that? Women take an active role in romance too, often more by your logic, and greater risk, so why is it considered passive just because a man asked?
Newfehotep
I didn't say they shouldn't, the point being made in the post - that the stereotypical men tend to extend and stereotypical women tend to accept - does not speak to (or preclude) either parties efforts outside of that dynamic.
Read what's in the last image again. It speaks to the false premise of "Romantic entitlement" and explicitly lays out the need to work on yourself, to make yourself an acceptable partner. It's what the parent poster purports to have done after disregarding the post.
Sinikko
Well yes, if you are a slop who lives in squalor, no one will find you attractive. But if taking care of yourself counts as active steps, its just the same for women, because they too improve themselves to be attractive. So the argument doesnt track to me.
Newfehotep
This might be the most fair response here, and I take your point. Both sides take active steps in a number of ways, the back half of the post is more what I refer to when I say that the effort to appeal to a prospective partner is still taking active steps - regardless of the push/pull during pursuit discussed in the first response. ^.^
IlluminaBlade
I kind of skimmed but I think they skipped the part where being approached by a woman feels straight up suspicious to a lot of men.
It's like "Am I about to lose a kidney or show up on a someones tiktok channel?"
jubbajedi
Can confirm, had a woman come onto me at a concert, we held hands, and were touchy feely, part of me couldn't relax and kept wondering if she was trying to steal my wallet, or had some devious plans for the sudden come on.
crazyspelling
As a cishet, 6/10-on-a-good-day single male in his 40's with a good job and no kids, when I get approached by women there are exactly two reasons: they think I'd be a great step-dad, or they're somewhere deep in the DSM-5. And this happens alarmingly often despite how infrequently I "go out." It's long since gotten to the point that I consider any sort of romantic interest to be a red flag.
cybergeek
there are *dozens* of us
streetcatz
Yeah, you missed where they said that. In my experience, being pursued feels strange and made me doubt mysel>imposter syndrome
jubbajedi
Totally, like "you just like me? Can't be true."
GadenKerensky
The big kicker about this sentiment is, though it's probably statistically rare to even be pranked, that does not reflect perception.
slinkydust
Sure the last time I was pranked like this was high school. Doesn't mean I don't react like it's going to happen again
GadenKerensky
Most people will never experience this. But stories of it along with other factors mean it's never far from the minds of a lot of men.
wowfan85
It's like the reaction when a wild animal approaches you in a friendly manner, you immediately wonder if it's sick or has rabies or something.
gordy77
This girl is kissing my neck, I wonder if she likes me? Nah...
nasukkin
Had this happen to me in High School. 6'5" red-headed, freckled-faced, receding hairline of a behemoth of a girl got onto me, and to make things worse she got my parents involved, who then got the entire school involved. The girl who I WAS into and who I had taken out numerous times never spoke to me again. Fucking sucked so bad, because as a guy, you CAN'T EVEN LET ON that you want to say something or else you get called an asshole.
Bhargo
especially during high school years when there was a trend of girls asking boys out just to stand them up and laugh at them as a group.
MiloBloomm
It should also be noted that men, not used to being pursued at all, are completely thrown off by attempted engagement by someone they do not immediately find attractive, they do not know how to respond because it is doubly foreign ("This is off script, and I'm she's not beautiful"). In contrast women are talked to, and talked at, by people they have no interest in constantly from a young age.
farfie
This happened to me as a teen in school. I was taken by surprise. I didn't even know who she was. I was flabbergasted and turned her down politely.
Glockenspieler
An extremely cute, nay beautiful cheerleader (I use this as shorthand for also somewhat “in group”) out of the blue did two really kind things for me in 11th grade and I still think of that missed signal.
QueenOfTheFey
Agreed. Straight men are used to only even tangently being romantic with people they are attracted to and interested in. And they take great comfort in that because it is always under their control. I've seen men get angry and violent with women who showed attraction (or worse, actually pursued romantically) men who apparently weren't attracted or interested in them.
Spidermonkey969696
In my experience of being a woman who has actively pursued men with actions, not just expressing my availability, many men are more attached to the script than they think. I got a lot of feedback that it made them feel emasculated. The pursuer may have to do more work, but with that comes more control, and imo many men associate that feeling with masculinity. I think to escape from the gender role they first have to question thier own ideas of masculinity and feminity. Now subversion of gender..
Andied
Very interesting comment and insight!
Spidermonkey969696
roles is what I actively look for in a partner, because I don't want to follow a script that never fits the individual relationship.
wherethehorriblethingsare
Tell me you peg without telling me you peg.
CoBr2
So it might be a little of the control, but some people just don't handle new situations well. I fumbled the shit out of the first time I was directly pursued, but did much better the second. The first time it happened I was just so confused about why they would pursue ME, since I didn't consider myself a catch at all. The second time I had learned to roll with it and had a great night.
Spidermonkey969696
I think you're right for some of them, especially when I was younger, cause in high-school I think we all tend to put our crushes up on pedestals. When I got older though it was less of the awkward/overwhelmed response and more of a love it or hate it response. Some guys loved it, because the script made them feel uncomfortable too. But some acted like going off script was a personal attack, I think cause they built the script into how they view themselves as men.
OmnibusLatinName
I never believed that I deserved good things in my life (too much to unpack to explain all that) and being pursued by a woman is an incredible validation.
TheAnimalLady
As...opposed to how women feel when approached by men? I think the premise of this question is fundamentally flawed, because when we picture a romance story, usually the female fantasy romance involves her not taking on the entire mental and emotional load of a relationship. It is a relationship of equal *emotional* effort and passion. A relationship in which a man is interested and invested in matching or exceeding her in both of those ways. How many posts about the mental load have we seen?
crazyspelling
To jump the mental load topic even farther, it drives me nuts when I see articles/videos whose premise is "if your wife has lost interest in sex it's because you aren't doing enough chores." It perpetuates the entire patriarchal notion of sex as a reward for specific actions, or else it's another chore for her that you can help her make time for. And then, shockingly, it doesn't work like that (unless your wife has a handyman kink).
PancakeInvaders
Is this whole post not about the mental load ?
QueenOfTheFey
I would also argue they clearly misunderstood what women mean when they say "romantic entitlement". Women don't want men to change and be more active pursuers, they want them to treat them as equals, and not burden them out of a misguided idea that "you should love me even if I'm hurting you". And then theres men who think that if the do all the romantic things that love should be guaranteed in return. This post is def a patriarchal af take.
Delabouilliederizquisourit
Yep!
lbargomancer
The original question is "why don't guys like romance stories" and the answer given is "at the risk of over generalizing: patriarchal social conventions". So of course it's patriarchal AF: unfortunately, trends in "male psychology" are pretty much all self-reinforcing patriarchy.
QueenOfTheFey
That's what I mean, it's not "here's a breakdown of the patriarchy and it's effects" but more "lets support the patriarchy and archaic views of women!!". Basically, it's not talking of the patriarchy, its full on patriarchy.
OwlXiozee
You fail to realize you speak only for your bubble. How you feel does not change reality. And considering how much of the US female population align with traditional right wing views... I'd say you're confusing how things should be with how things are. Plenty of women hate the idea of being equal in a relationship because they were never taught the skillsets to deal with the logistics of life and don't want to learn. My own mother is one of them. At least here, a desire for equality is a rarity
QueenOfTheFey
What you said goes against all evidence we have and everything sociologists, psychologists, and other experts have told us, but who am I to trust expert analysis of social norms and psychology when your mom apparently doesn't cook, clean, plan household events, or function in anyway! Also, not American (thank every god) so go off?
OwlXiozee
Actually she refuses to learn how to use electronics at all, she refuses to learn to budget her income, she is stuck in her parents house living off of disability with no prospects or career because she wanted to be a stay at home mom her entire life, But thanks for the assumptions bud, it says more about you than anything else.
poderous
I disagree with the conflation of having internalized patriarchal norms with being right wing. I think these social norms span the political spectrum.
OwlXiozee
Also, you boiled down women to one opinion then made a point out of there being different viewpoints from men. You can't pick and choose. The fact that plenty of men have differing views means this is also true for women, and you don't speak for all of them, your own gender or not. "...misunderstand what [I] mean when [I] say..." fits more don't you think? OP's point still stands.
SidewalkWidflower
And sadly in this space when one speaks uncomfortable truths, one gets downvoted. I agree with you and moreso I feel everyone is missing the active role women take to increase chances of men making those move, and even the active roles played by the woman's friends to help! It's totally behind the scenes but I think it happens all the times and I'm surprised it's being ignored here.
Unholytrashpanda
I know an unfortunate number of women personally who are offended by me doing things like sharing the cost of a date, or even planning one. And a lot of guys I've dated have found it off putting. It's me trying to tell them - I'm here, trying too. You don't have to do all the work. And even if the reception has been a real hit or miss, that's still how I'm going to approach it because the status quo isn't acceptable. That's how we get men who view romance as
Theyhitmewithatruck1
I once had a date tell me she was ok with making more money than her bf, but the man was in charge of certain things, like deciding where they ate. I asked where that second part came from and she said the Bible.
Andied
Thank you for trying to do it fair. Many of us appreciate it :)!
Unholytrashpanda
Transactional - "I paid for your dinner, now give me sex." It's also how we get women who view their existence as far more valuable than it is - men do now owe you free things just because you deigned to give them attention. Neither of these is acceptable, however it IS the norm. And if we talk about it bluntly with each other, we have an opportunity to break this down and start from a position more equal.
AnonOmis1000
Jesus this hurts. It's really accurate. I've been having a crisis of self lately. I don't feel I'm worthy enough of someone's affection unless I'm someone they settle for. I have far too few positives to outweigh my many negatives. I can't imagine someone, man or woman or whatever, loving me for me. It would not be worth it to them.
rahbben
3 words: therapy therapy therapy
AnonOmis1000
Already there. Therapy has never really worked for me in the past so I only just got a new one in November after not having one for 5 years.
AnalWake
Uncannily relatable
skrimg59
read the part about bettering yourself
AnalWake
Not the person you're replying to but I feel like I'm in a similar position. Sometimes even surviving day to day is a challenge, let alone bettering myself, especially when I know that I'm way behind what would be the baseline and what for me would be colossal efforts that I'm probably not capable of for others is just an afterhought of their normal existence. I don't have delusions that I deserve love for no reason at all but I am just barely able to deal with things as they are.
freshthrowaway1138
bettering? I thought it was about changing yourself to be more attractive to others until you don't recognize yourself?
AnonOmis1000
I'm struggling with ADHD, severe depression, and autism. It's a lot easier said than done
jaehoony
No one cares if it's easy or if it's done. Other than you. It's your life.
jimmyriba
He didn't say that it's easy, just that it's necessary.
You have the advantage that you're aware of your three big challenges. Getting a diagnose means you know what you need to overcome, and know that people have studied the intricacies of that challenge for decades and worked on developing tools to deal with it. The depression is the big one: are you getting help?
AnonOmis1000
As much as I can. Been on meds for half my life. Started going to a therapist again but I'm sure I'm just paying to talk to someone for an hour once every 2 weeks.
Spidermonkey969696
I've found therapy to be helpful myself, even though its just talking. If you feel your putting effort in but not getting results, perhaps a change of therapist would help? Some specialize and can be more helpful for certain patients than others. I also like the youtube channel "How to ADHD", it's sort of free adhd coaching. Hope this helps :)
ModernVoodooApostasy
I don't share any of the man's views. This seems cynical and transactional to me.
WarrenPeacce
I've spent 15 years married to two different women. That handle he mentioned, you crank it to put love in, but the second I got weak they just turned their backs and let me fall. It doesn't start giving back. Women just go find a better source of resources. A better sled to ride down the hill of life, letting me take the shocks and rocks of the slide. Then jump free when I get too broken. With as much as they could carry.
Bugkeeper
Sorry this happened! I swear, too many people have had their heads & their lives screwed by such implicit gendered teachings, instead of learning that everyone wants to be loved and accepted for who they are. Hope this changes soon.
NoMuffinsToSpare
You have had some bad experiences, many men have, but you shouldn't think that's just how "women" are. Guess what the ratio is for men leaving women with a cancer diagnosis vs the opposite. Research, not anecdotes, points to men abandoning their partner in hard times rather than women.
WarrenPeacce
Then I spent a few years trying to find a woman with online dating.
My opinion about the commercial nature of the relationship, from the female perspective, has not changed after that experience.
ObiWanKenobitch
Trying to find a woman to fulfill your needs and any female would do as long as your needs are met or trying to find a life partner that will share in your highs and lows? Because if all you’re after is the first then you’re going to be disappointed with your results.
WarrenPeacce
No. I have never tried to find a woman to fulfill my needs, well once and it was a disaster too but only for a few weeks lol
silhouettegundam
It reads a lot like a pickup artist rationale and not someone who has been in a loving relationship.
WarrenPeacce
It's transactional, which is exactly how I have been treated.
Bugkeeper
Hope you meet better humans in future, mate!
WarrenPeacce
Me too, but I am not trying real hard any more. Now just about every person I meet has their own agenda and wants something from me. That I would provide them, such as my time, energy, sexuality or money. But they don't seem to think about how they might give something to me.
The second I get the feeling that someone wants to take, I get away from them as fast as possible. There's lots of narcissistic personalities who just find people to vampire. I don't engage.
Spidermonkey969696
If you notice a pattern in your past of dating abusive people, perhaps therapy could help you untangle how that pattern is continuing? I experienced that myself because I have a NPD parent who modeled unhealthy relationships to me, but therapy helped me figure out how to adjust the behaviors that made narcissists so attracted to me, and now narcissists hate me but healthy people like me. It's much better.
Sinikko
Agreed. There are plenty of women who do things themselves when they are smitten with a man, they dont just wait for things to happen to them or dont just show the man that he can do something for them.
paddleup
It is transactional and that is life for many men
ModernVoodooApostasy
Self-fulfilling prophecy there
Spidermonkey969696
So how do you think you can change that? What behaviors can be adjusted to create a new script and reject the old one? Do you even want a script? Or is it better to figure out what to do based on the actual individual instead of mutual assumptions?
paddleup
Honestly, I don't think it can be changed on the grand scale. It's part of our society and learned behavior for both sexes. I could change how my children view romance. I would love a new script, but it would require my partner changing how she has been programmed as well.
Spidermonkey969696
I think that is how it changes, with small individual behaviors over time. That's sorta how change usually happens in general. And absolutely it's all genders that must unlearn harmful programming. But don't underestimate the power of modeling healthy behaviors to both your partner, kids and even yourself. Adjusting small habits over time is what it takes. Like having discussions where in the past you may have made assumptions.
spontaneous9
Agreed. I'm not seeking, pushing, or trying to earn anything. All I do is make room in my life and safe space in my home for another person. I'm not into rejection or fawning over someone or trying to earn their love. IMO that's ridiculous, everyone knows it's ultimately the woman who chooses what man she'll let into her life anyway, so very little of this pertains to me. My role is a passive one. I create a safe place FOR ME with enough room for one more. Here it is. She either wants me or not.
Gaelwyn
I like your idea of creating a space for yourself that has room for another person.
spontaneous9
There's no other way to do it IMO. Direct and honest is what works.
Harbltron
For real now, playfulness is wonderful but anyone you're going to share yourself with on an ongoing basis needs to know who you are and what you want, and vice-versa.
spontaneous9
Agreed. And it only gets better over time, as long as you're both honest and keep checking on each other.
paddleup
Is there another person in your safe space?
spontaneous9
She's in a hospital. MS took her. It's been a struggle, after 28 yrs of sharing our place. She was diagnosed in 07, slowly lost motor function, then took a bad fall May2021. She did NOT want to be in a hospital. I had to give up my job to care for her, as home care cost 2X my pay. She finally went stage IV (unable to stand up, even w/ help) a year ago December 1st. Then she developed a fever; I had to take her in. When the doc asked me to sign her DNR order, I knew they'd never let her leave.
BlurrySnowWhite
Interestingly enough, you have offered so much more than just a place for her. Being generous to give love, attention, empathy, physical and psychological support until the very end is what we all hope for when looking for a partner and aspire to be when offering ourselves as one. I am truly sorry for what you two are going through, but life is such a long unpredictable journey. Just know that you are an amazing human being. She knows it and is surely grateful for the blessing that you are.
spontaneous9
Well, I needed a canoeing partner, and she wanted to learn rockclimbing so we did a whole lot of that. Here she is in a better day.
paddleup
I am so sorry to hear about your and her situation.
spontaneous9
We were truly amazed to have found each other in the first place. So in truth, the unbelievable blessing of a steadfast companionship forged by trust and honesty was a gift neither of us could possibly foresee. Thank you for your kind words.
Mostlydeadpool
it is. that's the point. Most men don't get loved or valued for who they are by anyone but maybe their family. Until you get to the point where the other party WANTS to contribute to the romance, you're the one doing all of the work.
InternetAnonymityplz
I challenge your assertion that this is true of most men. That sounds like some red pill nonsense.
ModernVoodooApostasy
That honestly just sounds like men with bad taste in partners.
QueenOfTheFey
By that logic neither do women.
ObiWanKenobitch
I’m not discounting your experience but by your comment you’re basically saying women can only love if it’s transactional? And men can only get love by buying it or something? I really don’t buy that premise.
Mostlydeadpool
no, I'm not. I'm just saying that our culture really "sells" transactional relationships. Men want sex and appreciation and women want safety and security. But if you focus entirely on what you want vs what you give, it's always going to be transactional. And yes, transactional is always second place compared to someone that actually, you know, likes you and respects you. that's where genuine desire comes from.
Mostlydeadpool
All the instagram "perfect people living perfect lives" making all the men think they need to be grinding until they got a jet or something while women think they need to be fitness models. selling a Fantasy, just like disney did to the kids.
Spidermonkey969696
How can men change that first part? How can you find non-romantic friends, possibly even other man who can love and value you? Wouldn't that be better than only relying on a romantic partner for that? You can have more people who love and value you that way.
crazyspelling
We go join a club, or a sports league, or a tour group, or a d&d group, or go take an art class or a cooking class or an adult ed class, or even ask our existing friends to invite their other friends out on a play date so we can meet new people with similar interests and goals (making friends). IME, it's not that hard to find love generally - people have a lot to give. But it's nearly impossible to influence the *type* of love people give.
Emiloo74
Thank. You. It is hard to be a person's sole source for all of those things. Also, it is gross to assume all love is transactional from women. It assumes all women want is a paycheck and gifts from a man rather than a full-fledged partner. I want someone to love me as I love them and not expect me to be their maid, mother, and fuckhole. We are all more than the suffocating box cis-het has trapped us in. (Talking about cis-het shit, not others.)