TheGhostofElizabethShue
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I can see an argument between high costs and good services, and low costs and bad services (although I know which I’d pick), what I can’t understand is how you come out of that argument with both high costs and bad services.
In February perhaps it was too early to be clear what the true cost of bad services really is. You’re seeing it now. Some people saw this coming, I guess others needed to touch the stove to find out it’s hot. And I can understand that. What I can’t understand is the people insisting they haven’t been burned.
The paragraph is from here: https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/three-cheers-socialism
TheRealAlpharius
FockChinly
im not ignorant to it i am simply extremely limited in my power to change it. all i can do is vote with my pen and my wallet. i want to move
FockChinly
and with the electoral college and gerrymandering even my vote counts for hardly shit.
ShadowTeller
There are like at least 8 other things devaluing that count.
Fluckers
To be fair, Britain does not teach kids the horrors of the empire. How it conquered and ruled other countries. It explains why many people a
Fluckers
Are unaware of the reasons why other countries don't like it very much. Thankfully they have the NHS and a welfare state.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Fluckers
Very true, although individual nations claim that right (I'm Scottish). Collectively it doesn't seem to hold because of politics. Shame rly.
DoorTempleArch
As an American living abroad, it became quickly evident that the US lives within its own echo chamber of misguided, faux superiority
disguisedbudgie
I had the exact opposite experience when I was abroad. Lots of perspectives to listen to, our own experiences don't give all the stories
DoorTempleArch
Fair, many experiences are valid. The US has a better quality of life than many, but the “we’re #1” attitude is a joke and so indoctrinated
DoorTempleArch
We should strive for better for our own people if we want to claim to be the “shining city upon a hill”
sadurdaynight
MBA's, PhD's in marketing, etc have all been hired to run a massive campaign to brain wash civilians into being consumers. So, yeah.
sadurdaynight
It's like putting a baby in a boxing ring against a heavy weight champion. There's no contest.
TheAssassinArtemisEntreri
This is persuasive rhetoric full of personal value judgements & apples to oranges comparisons for the sake of argument. Interesting but only
samoljubav
America is a pyramid scheme
Shmeadicus
I'd share this, but I'm afraid the reading is too advanced for those who need to see it. A lot of big, scary words.
youcancallmeflowerifyouwantto
Will they recognise themselves in "credulous, cowardly and vicious" citizens allowing the "preposterously foul" to achieve political power?
Hotsaucewilliams
This is an opinion piece presented as fact. Germans in very concrete terms have fewer freedoms of speech, press and gun ownership, etc.
BopTheDrass
Is that a bad thing though
FlissFloss86Gaming
Has everyone had their fill of America bashing yet? Yeah, we're flawed. So is your country. I guarantee it
thanman007
That's what happens when a generation got validation to their policies by "winning" the Cold War.
thanman007
It's actually incredible how we elevate the victories of the WWs and Cold War and completely ignore the failures of the other 6 wars.
xizar
Given that we can't even agree who won/lost the Civil War/War of Northern Aggression, are you surprised?
Blundermore
They could no longer profit from providing arms and supplies to either side.
Blundermore
It's also incredible how often americans discount the sacrifices and courage of many who were not american. So far as to not acknowledge it.
thanman007
The WWII French jokes especially. I think we do ok in recognizing others, but we clearly haven't gotten beyond our own self importance.
Blundermore
To some have it their way the USA won ww2 and 1 with no help from anyone else despite being late comers to the war who only joined after
FoamingToad
Old joke from the UK: "Americans are trying to make up for being late to the last 2 world wars by being really fucking punctual for the 3rd"
FoamingToad
Srsly though, Imgurs are pretty chilled. It's /pol/tards that get on my nerves.
FreeRangeToast
its because our education system is fucked. Read some Orwell and Huxley; lots of A. Huxley lectures for free on youtube, educate yourselves.
FreeRangeToast
he was warning us about this shit almost a century ago, and since then we’ve grown to love our dogmatic servitude to the oppressive system>
FreeRangeToast
with steadily increasing fervor. It is honestly really scary to think about once you really dive into his deeper social analyses.
makethefrogblockthelog
As an expatriate American, confirmed. Keep playing that anthem at the games and saluting that flag. You look like nothing so much as N Korea
Cervani
As an american, reading up on the histories of other cultures is actually one of my favorite pastimes.
Imadethisaccounttopost
I remember my best friend in HS & College was convinced that because our health care was privatized, that we have the most advanced
Imadethisaccounttopost
Health care on the planet. This is one of the many delusions he had about America, it was almost optimistic at times.
Imadethisaccounttopost
Like, it came off as Hank Hill's delusions of how the world works.
Bigcurly2000
I think it's telling that in the democratic primaries, Americans living abroad voted overwhelmingly for Sanders.
StellarJay77
Most Americans are afraid of huge revolutionary changes because they’d much rather everything remain status quo for them then have to give >
StellarJay77
> give up anything for the benefit of others.
StellarJay77
They don’t understand that benefiting others helps them too. Working together has been the foundation of every major human achievement ever
mrmartini
I wonder if the new & revolutionary aspect is what's scaring people. I wonder if reminding people these same ideas were floated around >
mrmartini
75 yrs ago by the guy responsible for many of our social programs & labor laws we have today would help
Subutia
So are they going to vote for the guy Bernie is now supporting? Or stay out and pout again?
Bigcurly2000
Christ I hope not. Refusing to vote for Biden is just a vote for Trump.
Flashman1967
I also think it’s telling, although probably for a different reason than you.
Bigcurly2000
Do tell!
Domehammer
People that wouldn't be affected by Sanders since they live abroad voted for him? Who would of thunk it.
Bigcurly2000
They could have equally voted for Biden if it wasn't going to affect them, why didn't they?
brauntosaurus
a possible interpretation, another being "People that see other governments functioning 'better' and see Sanders' ideas as closer to those"
CaptainCapitalAndHisPunctuationPals
More like they actually realised what good proper social policies and institutions can bring. Did you even read the OP?
Imhonestlypartying
Lol explain why Sanders's ideas are bad I'd love to hear it
BopTheDrass
Yes they would, what are you talking about?
BopTheDrass
They are American citizens so his policies apply to them too. They like the policies because they see they work in other countries.
BopTheDrass
To not be affected by the policies, they have to rescind their citizenship and they would no longer be able to vote at all.
UVAChemE2013
More Anti-America stuff on Imgur. Shocking.
leroy666
Wonder why this is?
UVAChemE2013
Not to mention this post is so incredibly vague and speaks in such broad terms that it's pointless to debate because it's so unclear.
Plegeritis
I love the sarcasm in that comment!
Jazzcabage
Quite sure it was written by a mental challenged liberal arts student majoring in social justice. With a minor in 'I'm better than you'
fotopoulosgeorge124
I have lived in Europe and in the US. So I have experienced both worlds. You could not be more wrong about America ....
Womjem
How so?
fotopoulosgeorge124
Taxation : Study the European tax system . You basically work for the government.And that the US is an intrusive centralized state? Come on!
[deleted]
[deleted]
fotopoulosgeorge124
Correct. They do have though a centralized monetary and financial system though. Financial policy is regulated by the EU , not peripherally
fotopoulosgeorge124
More freedom in vigorous social democratic states??? Which ones exactly? It’s not freedom, it’s a leveling misunderstood sense of equality.
ScorneontheCob
I have lived in Australia, midwestern US, and now Norway. High tax, high standard of service & transparency from the government all the way!
wigwagthenwam
Well done you have made a choice, like many of us, the presumptive basis of the article is that we have been duped, I for one have not.
BlackHartMTB
Ok...
Jenvas
"It is easier to fool someone than to convince someone that they have been fooled"
SidneyHarbor
It only works if you are willing to give up individuality and always comply with the government demands of the collective.
easyoneundone
you sir, have no idea
deliberatemistake
We have no individuality here in Norway? ?
SolidEdge
I get the sarcasm, but just wanted to say that statistics indicate that Norway is the number one on individuality.
MKUltraMega
I’ve lived in Australia, Singapore, and the USA. Plenty of individuals everywhere, bud. Way more healthy any housed outside the US tho.
smpat04
I’m not sure I agree. My gf lives in Germany and they seem just as free. They do make less money in real terms (maybe 20% for my job), but
smpat04
That’s part of the equality structure they chose.
ScorneontheCob
I don’t feel like I’ve given up individuality, but people do seem a lot more community-minded here and are more willing to help others
naytorin
That's... that's how groups work. Of any sort. Herds, packs, societies... hell, thickets. And it's how life thrives.
thatlookslikeadick
If you live in the USA, you should try leaving it sometime. I’ve lived in Aus, USA, UK, Austria & Norway. Trust me, those ppl all have 1/2
thatlookslikeadick
2/2 plenty of freedoms and identity. Stop trying to conflate this with communism. It’s embarrassing for you.
Kringon
How do you figure that? There is plenty of choices in social democracies. In fact, people have more choices ref education, jobs etc
Kennleth
That's... the basis of any government really. Do you know of a government that does not employ enforcers?
SidneyHarbor
The US permits a remarkable level of freedom to do wildly different things under the banner of the same passport-issuing entity.
Kennleth
What freedoms do you have that me living in Canada do not?
[deleted]
[deleted]
TrueNorthernLights
You honestly think we don't have free speech here in Canada? Oh you sweet summer child...
L337TurboZ
As an American I have to say that the main problem with our country is the inability to fully come together to overthrow or change our >
L337TurboZ
Government. Voting is a farce and whoever has the most money wins the vote. Voting in new people wont change anything and nothing short
L337TurboZ
Of a full on revolution against the current establishment will change anything. Our corporations own our government, they control our media
L337TurboZ
So keeping our populace divided, ignorant, and fat is why we cant change a damn thing. I believe it can change and be better but it will
L337TurboZ
Take many lives, suffering, and hardship before anything productive can occur.
CheesecakePi
Eh...Some very legitimate criticisms, but there's also a a fair bit that's rather misleading/exaggerated, or incredibly vague.
Psychosdonotexplodewhensunlighthitthem
Actually it's all explained in detail in the full article, it's a good read.
CheesecakePi
Oh, I'd agree, it's an excellent read. But I still have say that I take issue with a number of his premises.
MyBucketOfScapulas
I agree. Lots of good points, but it also feels like the author just picked a bunch unrelated traits and then called them “freedom”.
annoyingjoe
The elite have been able to hijack the mythos of the revolution and it's guiding principles and use it to manipulate the masses.
TheRealArclight
SwaghettiYologneseWithMemeballs
Say, that sounds kind of familiar...
DreamMachine3
Very poignant +1
DeviousWay
Yeah, that started way back before the revolution. Bacon’s Rebellion is a good example of it.
ScorneontheCob
That’s cool, there isn’t much I wouldn’t do for bacon. In Australia we had a rum rebellion one time.
DeviousWay
It’s also worth noting that our founding fathers also happened to be the richest people in the colonies.
boblives
America isn't even a democracy, it's an oligarchy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy scroll down to USA
agonarch
It doesn't claim to be a democracy, it's a republic. In any democracy type the popular vote always wins (10% of the time it's not so in US)
WellThatWentOK
The US is a democracy, a representative democracy - expressed as a federal republic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy
agonarch
Fine, but I think that's really stretching... technically Russia, China and North Korea are representative democracies by that standard too.
Rip901
The US claims to be a democracy, it's functionally an oligarchy.
WellThatWentOK
Accurate as fuck sadly.
CloakedFigure
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to late-stage capitalism.
drdevice2
You're making the article's point for them
HonHonHonBaguette
Everybody on Imgur seems to mistake capitalism in general for American capitalism
IcelandBestland
American capitalism IS capitalism, other countries just added government programs so capitalism didn’t affect people as much
Bantarific
To be fair, even American capitalism isn't 100% capitalism. We do have social security, public police, public firefighters etc...
Bantarific
Not that there aren't forces actively trying to destroy all of those things, mind you.
Jachro
Orange forces
bbueller
what happens after late stage?
CloakedFigure
Deunderscoremoralize
for me? probably suicide
HellaFishsticks
As an American you're driven to near insanity when you try to explain these things to others. You're told you're stupid, evil, hate America.
codenametrixie
don't forget conspiracy theorist
Neoeon
Its cultism. I've run into the same on a local scale whereby a group of people love some thing and refuse to consider any aspect of it as
Neoeon
a negative - I love it, I dont care about its flaws, it's perfect and doesnt need changing, the important thing is that I love it, etc. -
Neoeon
which goes to preclude any chance of improving that thing because any criticism is met with violent rejection with the critic seen as evil.
thepenisqueen
Reply "No, I simply hate what American has become".
skellington01
Stockholm syndrome. It’s like people in dictatorships praising the dictator. Even worse: praising the very system of dictatorship.
agonarch
I'm glad some people can see it! I (outside US) see trumpism as so similar to Kim Jong-un or Xi's personality cults that I can't believe it
ArtSmarse
America has always had a personality cult surrounding the office of the president. Other countries don't make "president" movies. 1/
ArtSmarse
"The president defeats an alien snake invasion." "The president fights snakes on air force one." Etc. Trump is just trying to convert 2/
ArtSmarse
that cult-of-the-presidency into a cult-of-trump. 3/3
ActionJohnnie
You missed socialism or the dreaded communist
cheesedogs
Criticism for the purpose of inquiry and improvement is near opposite of hatred. It's the reason we were given free speech
brauntosaurus
"Freedom of speech is why America is better than everywhere else. Also, if you criticize America, get the fuck out you America-hater."
TheUseriestName
Americans are often the friendliest people, but also some of the most fiercely competitive. Just don't disagree with them on anything! ;)
OldSchoolNewRules
Gaslighting
TinyLiehon
It's ok to hate a diseased country.
Bigcurly2000
My American friend visited here (UK) about 5 years ago. At a house party, we were all cheerfully arguing our widely different takes on 1/2
MKUltraMega
exactly how much wood a woodchuck would chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood 2/2
Bigcurly2000
politics, how shit literally every party is etc, and afterward he admitted he was scared it was going to kick off into a full blown 2/3
Bigcurly2000
argument! We were astonished, he was so used to never revealing his liberal leanings.
Upinthecold
how far you have to penetrate before its gay. 2/2
Kennleth
mandatory response of; "just the tip."
Bigcurly2000
Lol fuck's sake, my phone died
BunkerJohn
Counterpoint. The US is fantastic place to live. Not without issues, but nowhere else I'd rather be.
wigglefluffticklebum
Good man, im happy for you. UK has its problems but its my home and I love it.
[deleted]
[deleted]
wigglefluffticklebum
Right back atcha kid
BunkerJohn
And that is the essential part of it. You can both love where you are at, but desire changes as well.
spoodUdimo
We also have a disproportionate number of people that think that bitching about EVERYTHING is edgy and makes them superior to EVERYONE.
Justanoldsmartass
Welcome to Imgur....
StellarJay77
Right, they’re being revolutionary in their fight against perceived oppression.
TheOvy
I'd say the one exception is the first amendment -- free speech may hypothetically exist elsewhere, but it's legally protected in the USA.
TheOvy
Not that that's much consolation for all the other stuff...
MyBucketOfScapulas
This is a distinction a lot of people don’t fully understand, and you explained it really well in this this. Thanks for that.
wigglefluffticklebum
And the kkk and Westborough Baptist church thanks you for it.
WellThatWentOK
Free speech is legally protected in most of Europe too. The US has restrictions on speech, as do they. What those restrictions are differs.
TheOvy
It's not the same, e.g. https://www.quora.com/Is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-the-UK Even abhorrent speech is protected in the USA, unlike UK,
TheOvy
and it can't be changed on the whims of the legislature either. It would take a constitutional amendment. It's always a bit of culture shock
TheOvy
when I find out that some speech that is typically permitted in the USA is outlawed in Europe.
WellThatWentOK
1/2 Like I said, the restrictions differ. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions
RadicalLeftist
Look man im aware of my username and as such im willing to debate until my last thumb movement the virtues of: Public healthcare, 1_2
Eleshar24
Are you aware that except UBI, all the issues you mentioned are centrist/non-partisan in most of the civilised worlds, right?
RadicalLeftist
Yep.
RadicalLeftist
Increased social services or a UBI, increased taxation, gun control, abortion access or any other subject Americans get so upset about 2_3
RadicalLeftist
And while im a radical leftist im not a communist or socialist i subscribe to the Nordic model being the best current example.
Icantthinkofaname2
Then you are not a leftist. Leftist means advocating 4 collective ownership of production.
RadicalLeftist
Give me a break. Does right wing mean mass shooting Nazis, not everything needs to be taken to the extreme conclusion.
catfingers
What do you have against guns?
wigglefluffticklebum
I'm from the UK and can honestly say I love not having guns here, but 100% get why you need them there. Totally different society values.
RadicalLeftist
They cause 40k deaths, or close to that, a year in the u.s and while they account for 6% of suicide attempts theyre responsible for over 1/2
RadicalLeftist
50% of gun deaths. There is also compelling evidance that restricting access to firearms also reduces both homicides and suicides.
nostradumasss
If capitalism is survival of businesses that are smart enough to survive in any climate, why have some been bailed out twice in 15 years?
Selendrile
Capitalism has implosion written into the system.
youraveragedeveloper
Because they pay politicians for a safety net....?
Chumbawhumba
Well, it's still a survival technique, however nefarious it may be
youraveragedeveloper
Huzzah- capitalist darwinism at its climax.
obastables
Because America has socialism for corporations, not for its citizens.
OutSyder
privatize the gains and socialize the losses
REAGANSMASH84
The economic target is low unemployment and 2% inflation, not gdp growth, not income growth, it's fake gains by any means.
1metalnation
Because we don't have real healthy capitalism. We have the end stage of unfettered crony capitalism. They aren't the same
CAAFlo
Back in 2008 I was a big believer in the idea that the free market is inherently good. Too big to fail was shockingly anti capitalism
IcelandBestland
Because the idea that the free market is good and proper was created to justify big business and capitalism
PangolinBan
Civic benefits being provided by the gov't are essentially neither socialist nor capitalist in nature. Some people like to claim big 1/2
PangolinBan
1.5/2 government must needs be socialist in nature, but that's not correct. Civic benefits are not part of the means of production,
PangolinBan
2/2 distribution and exchange.
VodkaReindeer
Capitalism isn't that. Where did you come up with that definition?
SmolTenk
Because they are smart enough to survive in a situation where others fail. Here by using their financial and social power to influence >
SmolTenk
politics. Remember, as long as you stay in the market, anything is fair game.
SmashLobDrop
That's not capitalism. You're describing the idea of economic darwinism. Capitalism exists when property is own by others than the workers.
SmashLobDrop
There are conditions for capitalism to exist, mostly economic liberties, but being smart enough to survive is not a condition, just a boon.
IHateYouMyselfAndEveryone
Because they survive that way. They've gotten away with it twice now; why would they stop?
TheZacAttack
1000 times THIS! I'm conservative, I personally have faith in a mostly capitalist system, the fact that the same people who screamed about
TheZacAttack
These exact things in the last 8 years are now the people screaming that we *have* to do the same thing again enrages me
skellington01
In America? Pure greed so CEOs can get bonuses. In proper countries? To successfully save the economy for the benefit of the people.
masterfinch1
You are correct; bailouts are un-capitalistic (an in the U.S. Unconstitutional) but it happens anyway.
rthat
Sounds like a pretty good survival tactic to me
DaVincisHands
What businesses have been bailed out twice in 15 years?
smpat04
Funny thing is, JP Morgan and GS didn’t need the bailout but their peers did... why would they ever behave responsibly again?
pvtwestbrook86
The US isn't a capitalist country.
torillatavataan
They are too big to fail, that is, big enough to have bought the government.
Phlynch
Because we stopped being capitalist a while ago. They just keep calling it that hoping to avoid another revolution.
greggor
Because pure capitalism, like pure communism is unattainable and undesirable. It would suck to live in a truly capitalist society.
ihaveblunderedyetagain
Because we don't have capitalism in this country, we have corporate welfare.
shotinthehead
Them lobbying their way into receiving such bailouts is their proof of being smart enough.
unfunfactguy
Socialism...?
unfunfactguy
Or at least some aspect of it
Iatesomecoffeecups
Socialism for tge rich
smpat04
I think you know the answer: we aren’t capitalists :)
ThrownClub
Because this is an Oligarchy and it always has been.
AFistfulOfDollHairs
Why can’t Canada make their own cars?
ProphetofEntropy
we do, we make most of the cars used in our country. cause its law.
AFistfulOfDollHairs
I meant own the manufacturer or whatever. Australia can, the uk can, america can, Canada cannot.
Wheresmycodpiece
1: I’m as an Australian, no we can not. We tried and ended up subsidising it just to keep it afloat and jobs intact. The high cost
Wheresmycodpiece
2: couldn’t compete with overseas and it was a giant tax drain. We rightly got rid of it and focused on other areas.
ProphetofEntropy
what?
AFistfulOfDollHairs
You don’t see any car brands that are explicitly designed and manufactured in Canada preferably with Canadian materials. GMC doesn’t count
goblinofstoichiometry
The should have failed the first time. Capitalism isnt keeping them up, political cronyism is.
michoacaneno
If govt was really hands off about the market then they would fail, but ultracapitalism uses $$ to fund its own govt reps to influence laws
Idownvotewhenyousayplus1
Yeah people blame capitalism but forget that we have crony capitalism causing these problems
Rip901
Yup "All the problems with capitalism are just because it's not REAL capitalism" Kinda like how there's never been a communist country.
AndAtThisPointImTooAfraidToAsk
It is the product of an oligarchy.
donthaveonebrojustlurk
Political cronyism is produced and reinforced by capitalism. Goldman has the revolving door because they are so wealthy.
IcelandBestland
Exactly
dyskordian
Yea, because Stalin most certainly didn't pick and choose who got to keep their businesses....
superspaceman1337
This paragraph is on point, because very few Americans actually know what has happened in Maoist China and Stalinist USSR.
nostradumasss
Why is socialism only equated with universal health care and not giving money to people and businesses?
superspaceman1337
No true socialist state built on the ideas of Marxism exist today. Those that did, didn't survive into the 21st century.
kmikl
Because it's not socialism when businesses feed at the tax fund trough without putting back in.
lncorrectGrammerNazi
Because America isn't run by politicians. It's run by businesses.
slack3rdav3
bUsinESseS ArE pEoPLe ToO!
DanielKnight382
not until i see one on the guillotine
cainofdreaming
"Politics is the continuation of business by other means."
annoyingjoe
whoa slow down there I might learn sumptin
GeneralWho
kmikl
Poor snek has a dry cough. Check it's temperature.
waudey912
No time, get him back to work he needs a haircut
annoyingjoe
thoughts and prayers
Neoeon
I said that. People say we need to bail out big businesses so people will have jobs after quarantine. I ask why they dont have parachute
puppysnuggles
Because No one saves for a pandemic
Neoeon
funds in the event of negative circumstances, as most common people do, and they dont have an answer.
RegularHumanNotFourDucksInATrenchcoat
When reaching critical mass a company might become "Too big to fail" : they know the government will save them in case of crisis.
deekermans31415
Most common response I've seen is "Because they can't be sitting on money that they could be using to make more money"...its not a well >
deekermans31415
< thought out point.
SugarRay59
Money in a rainy day fund is money that could be funneled into the hands of shareholders and people with acronym titles.
StrangerNum1
Their parachute is call government
SeeYaLaterMethamphetaGator
They don't have to.. Uncle Sam will bail them out.
Kooks
It’s because our tax system rewards big businesses reinvesting/spending their money. It’s a policy issue more than anything
Kooks
Companies would be stupid not to take advantage
Rip901
Doesn't that play right into the Risk/Reward that is a staple in America's Capitalism dream? You risk reinvestment for a reward and then 1/2
Neoeon
But the public shouldnt be paying for their life support during a financial crisis. Otherwise its win-win for companies on the backs of not.
MegaIlluminati
Most Americans that have seen the life outside America, definitely recognize the flaws there. Most Americans I know are aware of it.
whateverthevoicestellme
But we can’t travel because our healthcare will bankrupt us if we leave our work-city
CumsInPies
I've only been outside of the US twice and that's on the high end in most my social circles. America is historically a melting pot but 1
CumsInPies
It's become a thing of history. Most people I know or meet don't experience cultures outside of their own. It's sad. 2/2
Druidichawk19
Agreed. The Historical ignorance is just as bad. I'm 20 years old, and when I started college, I found myself having to explain to someone 1
Druidichawk19
The basics of Ceasar and the Roman Empire. That same person also had barely any understanding of the concept of evolution, among other 2/3
Druidichawk19
Things. And she wasn't that much of a black sheep. Especially not when it came to knowledge of history. I was baffled.
Firsthope
Having traveled extensively, I’m always shocked by how many people have never left the US but still judge those countries with no experience
HogwartsAlumnus
I remember growing up I though America was the only free country. When I got older and learned about other countries I realized how 1/2
HogwartsAlumnus
Brainwashed we are as a culture. It’s horrible. 2/2
Kaleopolitus
Best friend came from America, moved to Germany, is still, years later, shocked at how well they're being taken care of.
DukeLaserMaster
Im american. The only thing keeping me here is family. In 20 or so years once they pass. Im gone. Zero desire to start my own family here.
otiumCatulli
Usually people will be biased towards the place they call home, the culture and systems that they're used to, so travel to a foreign 1
otiumCatulli
Country won't always change someone's biases, but it's still a good idea!!!
idrinkcheapbeer
tcdriver
..as an American....most..not all but most are wilfully stupid
MrKomisiripala
Most Americans barely leave their state.
anvitas
then rise my brother. what's amazing is that a revolution in America would probably encourage other corrupt nations to move.
RevolutionOnHerLips
It's an easy thing to say, much harder to accomplish. Anti-protest culture here is strong. Strikes are next to meaningless. And the rich
RevolutionOnHerLips
have largely brought the uneducated masses to their side by manipulating religion.
anvitas
i feel ya. its like that all over the world
Gagerith
Thanks megailluminati
afterdarkart
I've been to at least 38 countries. I don't being lumped in with the 'they' because I've seen the better we can do from the outside.
AVeryNakedMoleRat
America is difficult to develop because this is a very, very big country with a few populous cities with nothing in-between.
Kim8them
You mean like Australia or Europe (given that US States are like EU countries). Your set up is basically 50 countries it should happen.
AVeryNakedMoleRat
It should. It would be nice to have high-speed passenger rail, faster broadband, and all the roads and bridges repaired.
UpSaDaisy
Spent quite a bit of time outside the US. I see the flaws, and also see why the complacency exists. It’s nice here if you just don’t think.
Isorikk
Not thinking is what we Americans are best at.
Neoeon
Ignorance is bliss huh?
UpSaDaisy
For many, yes. Frankly, it’s lovely here. Idyllic. So it makes it very easy to ignore problems.
ThomKlanc
I get it. I've felt the draw of just "fitting in" and having a 9-5 with the white picket fence. Life would be easier. Betterment is not
ViolentWatcher1234
Yeah this kinda paints us as all ignorant and oblivious. If other countries had our issues they’d probably do about the same.
VileCoyote
Yes, this paints you as ignorant and oblivious. Too many ignorant people in a place which elects Trump to rule them all.
saxon2060
What issues are those that have been inflicted upon the US uniquely from without their control?
toptrojanfan
I'm aware of it but would much rather live in the U.S than anywhere else I've been. I've traveled to 35 other countries, none IMO, compare
DaBaiMa
Comfort-zone tourism.
toptrojanfan
Many of the countries I've visited were in Africa and the Middle East. You don't know me.
Kim8them
What, in your opinion, makes the USA so good? I
toptrojanfan
The belief that if I work hard enough, I will live a better life than my parents. My children can also have that hope. In my case it is true
Kim8them
This is the case in most developed countries. Plus in other countries you will get universal healthcare and higher living standards
toptrojanfan
I'm perfectly satisfied with my health care so that's a non issue and there are only a handful of countries that are on par with the U.S.
CaptainClarification
Yeah but traveling to another country in Europe is a much easier task. I've travelled 700 miles in the same state.
ImAFoxButNotReally
I'm argentininan which is also a big country and I'm also low middle class . I've been to Europe, USA, and half south America.
CaptainClarification
That's good, I'm glad your circumstances allowed you to do that. Unfortunately, mine do not. I would love to travel. It's just not an option
GlacialFlour
No excuses. I'm Canadian and have spent about three years out of the last 11 backpacking, have lived in Iceland, Australia, China, and 1/
CaptainClarification
Must be nice, but there hasn't been a point in my life where that was an option.
GlacialFlour
now the Netherlands where I am working on a PhD. I've also seen more of Canada than most people. Lots of the US, too. 2/
GlacialFlour
It's not a matter of distance, it's a matter of commitment, priorities and education. 3/3
TheZacAttack
I agree that not traveling is not a good excuse for not being cultured of that's what you are attempting to say, but the ease of travel is
babycoolredhead
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
CactusFantastic0
I’m sure most of working class American can afford to just pack up and go backpacking across Europe. Just leave their families behind.
FlaccidHamster
I work with a lot of people who have moved here from their home country and they say it is better here and only reason they go back is fam
jursamaj
Sample bias. The people who move here like that are moving from the worst countries. Ones in good countries have little reason to move here.
FlaccidHamster
Most people who say oh they have it better over there are basing their opinions on a vacation they took to that country.
FlaccidHamster
Not to say America doesn't have its flaws but it also isn't a sess pool like imgur tries to make it out to be.
disguisedbudgie
I'd upvote you more than once if I could
saxon2060
*Cess. Western Europe feels more generally, equally, prosperous than the US. Tho there are clearly rich and poor parts of both.
Jordinatinglybeautiful
But many haven’t been outside, have they? I’m a European and my exposure to other cultures is huge.
Dirtsailor2010
I have travelled abroad as well as the length of the US. My country is 6000 KM long and 4500 wide. You think the poor can travel like you?
OverlyOpinionated
We generally can't drive to another country for a daytrip
Rokin123
You don’t even have to travel outside the USA to be exposed to different thoughts and perspectives. The most close minded people I know 1/2
Rokin123
2/2 haven’t even left their home town.
eastend666
Murican here - couldn't agree with you more. It's staggering how many here aren't curious or adventurous for experiences outside the US.
MegaIlluminati
Exactly.
Jordinatinglybeautiful
I’ve also exposed myself hugely to Europeans, in case you were wondering.
brusten0
Were you arrested?
shakedownblues
"exposed" can be a relative term, depending on where it happens. Could've been a nude beach.
lurksohardmotherfuckerswannafindme
You can drive to multiple countries as quickly as some of us can cross ONE state. Coupled with the economic stresses described limits us.
lurksohardmotherfuckerswannafindme
Having met people who’ve never left the island of Manhattan...it’s not surprising in the least.
Delta2Almanac
I can appreciate that. I like to suggest that many travelers do not see the vast cultures that reside inside the US from state to state also
Jordinatinglybeautiful
I agree. I drove across the US over 8 weeks and I told somebody the different cultures (in country) were very cool. He didn’t get it.
OverlyOpinionated
Also, Europeans get vacation days. Two weeks paid is pretty standard in the US for a decent job, but what percentage don't get paid vacation
OverlyOpinionated
Europeans get LOTS of vacation days comparatively
flashtrigger
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealane/2019/05/02/percentage-of-americans-who-never-traveled-beyond-the-state-where-they-were-born-a-surprise/
flashtrigger
TLDR; 63% have never left the country. Those who have I would guess majority only briefly went to Canada, Mexico, or the Caribbean
mask69venom
Really interesting correlation mentioned between low travel and not having the money or time off to go anywhere. 1/2
mask69venom
Even when I finally got enough money to travel, two weeks vacation isn't enough time to go anywhere and that's with a nice office job. 2/2
flashtrigger
Wage slavery
ScorneontheCob
I think you’re right, I met a lot of people in midwestern US who didn’t even have passports. I think its more like that in the square states
Badprenup
I don't have one myself. I should because they are handy for identification purposes for certain uncommon things, but I don't have money 1/2
Badprenup
To go out of the country atm and I have the alternative ID stuff for the uncommon scenarios where a passport helps, so I'm waiting for now
UpSaDaisy
I live in a square state. It takes longer for me to get across my state than it would for many Europeans to drive to the next country.
ScorneontheCob
Same in Straya
ZircZZ
Absolutely. Where I live in the Netherlands: 85 km (53 mile) south = Belgium, 150 km (93 mile) east = Germany
TrumpRapesChildren
Good lord. Your 93m trip to Germany is the distance I had to travel 1 way to go to my daughters primary care physician.
TrumpRapesChildren
You can easily hop to another country for a bit. Do you understand the scale of the US? 1400 miles is 2 maybe 3 states across.
Shoutrr
there are other ways to be exposed to the outside, and almost none of them exists in the US(i talk about the media coverage)
CosmicGastropod
As a Texan I can say for a fact that a vast majority here have barely been out of their hometown let alone out of their states.
whoinvitedthem
Even after my outrageous Canadian taxes, I have more disposable income to travel vs save in case I need astronomically expensive healthcare
eastend666
Not a great observation. Many Americans just don't want to explore elsewhere.
TrumpRapesChildren
Granted I've been to Ireland, Scotland, Germany, Kuwait, Afghanistan, and Iraq.
Himser
And Canada is bigger... and yet we routinely travel to other places to experience other cultures. And the USA is a staple of what NOT to do.
TrumpRapesChildren
I've traveled quite a bit. And many Americans have. But many also have not.
ScorneontheCob
Funnily enough Australia is almost as big as the US, much more isolated/further from countries but lots of Aussies travel internationally
winterthemute74
The US also has something like 300 million more people in it.
TrumpRapesChildren
Very true. And both countries similarly have vast swaths of empty land too.
macrology
I think this has a lot to do with the fact that many Americans travel around the US, because there's a great deal to see within the country.
macrology
Whereas Australia is basically two coastlines with a vast desert in the middle.