MrPhucket
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May 1, 2023 2:45 PM
MrPhucket
83784
1676
69
HenryLongfellowIII
War with Japan was hardly "unexpected".
RyanH42
Tolkien said he created the Ents because he was disappointed that the trees in Macbeth didn't actually march on the castle.
Gatorjon
That would have been awesome. Shakespeare, high as fuck, to his buddies- "Dudes, I'm gonna blow your minds. Now just hear me out...."
billyjonas
What does that make Tom bombadil?
Imapseudonym
Treebeard was based on Tolkien's friend C.S. Lewis.
ElvenTroll1121
the ents mind their business america tries to police the globe
RPCharImages
First of all, the World Wars were NOT a big influence on Tolkiens writings. The devastation of Fangorn Forest by Saruman the White and Isengard were a reflection not of the war torn fields of France, but of Birmingham, and the rampant industrialization of area in comparison to his childhood home which was more like the Shire.
midrealmknight
He was without a doubt influenced by both.
RPCharImages
He may well have been, but large chunks of the books were already completed *before* either war. Most people compare the Battle of Five Armies to WWI, but Tolkien went on record saying he had already done that scene and had that idea while still a student at university, several years before the war started, let alone his own service at the Somme
ChadimusPrime69
Nah. The Ents were not waiting around to see who would win before they decided which side to join and they didn't create ratlines for Orcs to escape to Fangorn forest so they could go to the fucking moon.
RandAIFlagg
The Seanchan are American, too. Sent across the sea by King Artur, they colonized and killed off / displaced any natives that they didn't enslave or integrate. They built a terrifying military that adapts well to new scenarios by studying their own failures and investing heavily in overcompensating against said failures. They strike quickly with air and naval superiority and puppet the governments they invade. Plus, their accent is Texan.
Noblert
I’m interested
kakivara
What? It's a lot more like America having bases in Japan and Korea after the war, since it was Japan (Saruman) that attacked America (the Ents). What the fuck, Jesse?
mandy009
cursed
EpilatorAlligatorBothReduceGrowth
Except that in the book the Ents were well aware of the destruction. I was so angry with the film for ruining the whole entmoot and making it out that the Ents wouldn’t know. Their point was that it wasn’t their fight, the hobbits got them moving. And when they were moving they were on their way to Saruman. The same film had Faramirs personality change, I was seething. It took me a few years to really accept the change Jackson took. Dont like it still, but accept it.
midrealmknight
kjtodd11
I had this EXACT thought yesterday while smoking weed and watching WW2 documentaries
heresaname
Hovencloof
This does seem to make sense in an allegorical manner. The US entry in WWI clearly turned the stalemate in the trenches of the Western Front into a victory for the Allies. But then, how does the mysterious disappearance of the Entwives figure into this?
RPCharImages
Two points: 1) US entering WWI had no effect on the trench warfare which was extremly common practise at that time, the advent of the Tank & rampent infection on both sides is what broke the stalemate. 2) Tolkien had already writting most of The Hobbit & LotRs by 1938, he also hated allegory with a passion. Casual comparison and allegory are not the same.
fartharder
Experiences in WWI sure, but that's where you get the fellowship
Herebychoice
One take on all this "allegory" talk /gallery/CEXIBxo/comment/2323803405
Filanwizard
However the Ents never had a Lend Lease program.
ChristopherHallett
Large trees, American? No, if the Ents were a race of carparks, THAT would make sense.
lostharbinger42
If the ents are americans wouldnt that make Saruman japan tho?
DreadzkieOnTwitch
Sure, why not, Or just Germany if it was World War 1, Germany tried to form an alliance with Mexico to invade the US. Germany killed many US sailors in both wars.
NovaOdin
サーラマン His name uses Japanese syllabary without having to change it.
NinjaSpork
Nothing pisses off Ents like the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor
CrimeSceneShoe
The palm trees tho
lilbrother
ArcadiaBerger
Tolkien said repeatedly that he hated allegory. The only allegory I will absolutely defend is his obvious unconscious allegory, which surely soaked into his bones during the Great War, that he was a little person caught up by great forces, acting at the behest of an authority which was inscrutable, capricious, sometimes seemingly dotty, but ultimately well-meaning and benevolent and worth obeying, worth fighting for, if necessary worth dying for. Even if it was a bit dotty.
RPCharImages
Very little of the great war influenced Tolkien. A big part of both the Hobbit and LOTRs was already written by that time, it just handt been compiled into a story yet
CandidGamera
Are you listening to yourself?? "Oh there's OBVIOUSLY no allegory because he said he hated allegory so claiming allegory disregards the author but there's TOTALLY an OBVIOUS unconscious allegory that I figured out which is totally not disregarding the author"
3141592pancake
But who are the entwives then?
WorkerLurker
Sorry, we kind’ve forgot.
fartharder
America's senses
sevenfingerman
The Native Americans?
PoliticalWanderer
The freedoms we lost along the way?
PaintedSlate
zombiejedediah
American common sense?
Farzhad
The power was in our hands all along! ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)
yeahIbreedtreelizards
The monarchy, which both mad king George and apparently Tolkien, thought we would long for....
themostannoyingsoundintheworld
Canadians
CrazyCatLad
Are they the ones that just spring from the ground?
tster1973
Love seeing all the LOTR purists freaking out about something that's damn funny if you stop taking yourself so serioiusly for a second.... well done OP
MrPhucket
wookietiddy
Seriously.
CarnivorousRabbit
The ents care far too much about the well-being of the environment to be Americans.
holyicon
This checks out... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_parks
CarnivorousRabbit
Surprising number of parks, but a pitiful total size. Too bad, there's a lot of beauty to conserve.
doesntmatter
Conservationalism was pretty big in the US during the first half of the 20th century. Teddy Roosevelt stuff. I don't think it's actually called that it was just the first thing j thought to call it.
CarnivorousRabbit
Too bad that didn't stick, eh?
Johwin
“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers." - J R R Tolkien
Icantthinkofaname2
"It's a joke. " -Me
sfrinlan
I don't think that rejects the notion that it's inspired by the World Wars, but rather that he doesn't intend LotR to contain some hidden moral, as allegories are wont to do
siccoyote
And L Ron Hubbard went on for about 10 pages at the start of Battlefield Earth about how it's pure science fiction, not fantasy. Creators say a lot of things.
siccoyote
I think it's more he doesn't like people spelling out the allegory, because he wants the readers to interpret to their own. It doesn't mean he didn't base it on is own allegory.
Nnoodles
CandidGamera
So what you're saying here is that you're using fictional history as allegory. Good one, Jay-Arr-Arr.
Frazmatazz
EverNotRelevant
Yeah, well. Death of the author.
EverNotRelevant
Y'all really mad that alternative interpretations exist.
Mack1986
Yeah he said that. But clearly so much of his writing was allegorical or just rewritten actual events. Charge of the Rohan and siege of Gondor was the Siege of Vienna
RPCharImages
No, his writting is not clearly allegorical, or even rewritten events. Nothing is original so you will always draw parallels. The Siege of Vienna, specifically the charge of the Winged Hussars which you're drawing your comparison to, is a false comparison. If anything, the Siege of Gondor & the battle of Pellennor Fields is more like Ceasars siege of a Gaul town where he himself is then siege by another army after his reinforcements arrive. I forget the name of this battle however.
Mack1986
Massive cavalry charge to break the siege of a city in which the king leading the charge dies. Def. More relevant than the Siege at Gaul which was quite static
RPCharImages
The siege *in* Gaul I'm refering to is the one where Ceaser's forces encricled a Gaul town, laid siege & were then attacked themselves, having to fend off an ambush until their own reinforcements arrived to drive off the second Gaul army. Much like when Aragorn appears to drive off the Eastmen who break the charge of the Rohirrum. There was nothing static about this siege where Ceaser himself, much like Gandalf, moved along the battlements of their siege fortifications that they then used to -
RPCharImages
-to defend themselves from the new army. Like Gandalf during the siege of Gondor, Ceaser leads his men in the most desperate areas, rallying them to hold the line again & again. A surprise Cav charge that breaks the siege entierly vs a cav charge that only disrupts the siege & is quickly countered itself by another charge of 'cav' or oliphants.
Mack1986
He built a wall around himself. It'd a terrible anaology
derschweiz
We weren’t attacked in WWI, we intercepted a telegraph that was encouraging Mexico to attack and one of our boats was sunk… Tolkien’s influence was WWI, so Cold War doesn’t apply.
SinStar87
what do you call sinking a boat if not an attack? sinking a boat was an attack that started the us spain war, and stopping boats were an attack instigating the 1812 war.
derschweiz
It wasn’t an attack on US soil like Pearl Harbor. It was an act of war, but the ship was carrying weapons for the UK (despite being a passenger ship) but you’re right, it was an attack against US property.
SinStar87
That's fair.
electrajet
His battle experience was WWI, but he had a non-combat role in WWII and his sons were in the war. He was writing LOTR and had to pause the process during WWII. EVERYONE was influenced by WWII, whether you were directly involved or watching from home.
derschweiz
Fair, although most of the comparisons I’ve seen with his work were about WWI and less WWII, despite his insistence that he wasn’t making an allegory about anything.
SidonisAntares
He didn’t even serve in a non-combat role in WWII, he was selected as a potential codebreaker, took a military course on cryptography, and then was never called up for service. I’m sure he would have got on smashingly with Turing though had he been given the opportunity.
Herebychoice
@Ngugi so much in here that could use your insight
Ngugi
Sigh, one of these? I always found these theories must be made by people who lack creativity, and can only see fantasy as window dressing. In fact, JRR had to stress that his book did not portray reality from the LotR's second foreword on, since people started to come up with ideas of allegory [ie that his characters were real persons by different name, or his folks were real countries by different names, etc]. He stated: "It is neither allegorical nor topical.... The real war does not 1/5
Ngugi
resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. ...I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." Ergo, that
Ngugi
similarities can be drawn between Ents and the USA in World Wars is a case of applicability, not allegory. JRR noted "It is also false, though naturally attractive, when the lives of an author and critic have overlapped, to suppose that the movements of thought or the events of times common to both were necessarily the most powerful influences." reminding us that just because you can read something into the work of an author that match your knowledge and expectation, that must not say anything
Ngugi
of the author's inspiration or intent. Furthermore, the arguments in #1 are inaccurate or weak. The Ents democracy was not ineffective; Treebeard already planned for a moot and while the Ents were slow they met once and decided to go to war. Other nations joined the War [hell, its common in any war in history] first once attacked; Belgium, Denmark, Norway, etc. And there is not significant similarity between the occupation of the emptied, isolated Isengard and West Germany [JFC, who came up with
Ngugi
this?]. All in all, in my experience its an example of how to separate a Tolkien scholar from an entusiast. Entusiasts will see a similarity and look for any interpetation to verify it. A scholar will see a thesis and try to find out Tolkien's intent, acknowledge that correlation does not imply causation, know that JRR never wrote anything encouraging of the idea's interpetation, and that he in fact would have been personally disappointed people tried to turn his legendarium into allegory. 5/5
Apeofdeath
That actually makes sense
Felrian
Yeah no. Tolkien was not a fan of American and British imperialism.
tuuuesday
Ents are likeable though?
Strategicgnomer
No it doesn't, Jesse is a moron, how would he figure this out? I don't think he even read Tolkien.
WeaponizedJerk
Not really, no.
mhelmers
To call the US fiercely isolationist, even in the beginning of the twentieth century, totally ignores the Monroe Doctrine and various ventures in Asia before that. So no, it does not make any sense.
AgainstMethod
It's two parallels, but the main point of the ents was that they were ancient, wise, and fiercely protective of nature, so J.R.R. Tolkein definitely did not have the American army in mind.
PicassoCT
They even "lost" their wives, due to being joyless woodaholics for life.
RPCharImages
It makes sense, but its wrong.
eggmuffin
Not so much when you remember that Tolkien considered himself bothered by the people who kept asking him about the things they were sure were war-imagery translated into his stories. He was surely inspired by events of the war, they coloured his understanding of what war is, but he did not write about The Great War. He was quite adamant.
Maharajmeister
Well, be that way of think, anything can make sense.
himisti
Until you realize ents are wise.
JacktheKind
Weeeeeeeell... just because you can draw parallels,...which he did and they hold up and are funny. No, I don't think it's quite like that... for many reasons.
InsomniaOlympic
He speaks for the trees
iamamentat
I'd say occupying Isengard is more like occupying Japan since that was the power that triggered official entry into WWII, but yeah, if Tolkien says it's not an allegory, I'll defer to the author. It's still fun though.
PorneliusHubertII
Lol the sky is blue because the sky was fucking blue when i imagined it. I always hated lit class because they often asked you to search for meaning in the meaningless.
PorneliusHubertII
"Write a 5 page paper on the possible interpretations of this 3 line poem"....fuck.
Lichelf
Ignoring all context, that is. The Ents are also extremely old compared to all the other factions involved, unlike America which is the exact opposite.
saywhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
Let him enjoy his confirmation bias a bit longer
samwyze
We have Giant sequoia. While the nation may be young, the inhabitants are ancient.
lukebagpiper2
Yeah, intended by the author? Not likely. Useful comparison to learn from within reason? Sure. Applicability is fine but this post makes it sound like intentional allegory which is incorrect.
TacoPoweredHelicopter
And they are fucking trees... Noy everything will be identical.. just let people have fun.
mikeatike
Yeah, I guess that's how they reproduce.
narniasreal
Americans are trees too, though.
SilverFish0
I'm more of a bush
IronCore
Can confirm. Am tree.
TresusIbor
AmericEnts
wurth
Can confirm. We have deeply rooted racism.
catreplicators
that made me chuckle (unfortunately accurate)
Lichelf
My fun is debunking bullshit, just let me have it. Don't be a killjoy.
Movietimeme
What if being a joy kill is his thing? Can he have that?
lukebagpiper2
What if calling out killjoys is my thing? Can I have that?
Heisanevilgenius
My Dad told me this was a talking point with his friends when he was in college in the 70s
narniasreal
Tolkien claimed The Lord of the Rings isn't allegorical
Christx30
He also claimed rings were magical and could turn you invisible. And we know that’s not true.
lukebagpiper2
Yeah, intended by the author? Not likely. Useful comparison to learn from within reason? Sure. Applicability is fine but this post makes it sound like intentional allegory which is incorrect.
Ristari
Hard to look at the dead marshes and not think the Somme affected him there
Haemaelaeinen
Taking inspiration from something is totally different from allegory.
FacelessAce
Oh what!? and we're just supposed to BELIEVE HIM just because he's the Auth- um... nevemin.
sfrinlan
Just to start, I'm not saying this particular allegory exists or is correct. But, broadly, even though authors or artists or musicians may not have intentionally set out to create a work to match a certain theme or be a certain allegory, we do all share world history, we have seen the shared motifs of the world and people who came before us, and those things can come out in the art even without an explicit intent by the creator.
sortofkindamadbutnotreally
This is part of a larger quote that I think is often misunderstood. His dislike was for the direct alllegory of the author. Think CS Lewis' Narnia. Azlan is directly an allegory to Jesus. Allegory, as referred to by Tolkien, was the "Domination by the author". What this means is that while many MANY things in his writing were inspired by real world events and experiences, they are not explicit allegorical references to them. He wanted the reader to freely interpret real world applicability.
LootenetDan
Perhaps he means he didn't sit there and figure out a stand in for every political force, or map out an intentional parallel for every plot point. But the influence is pretty noticeable, and I'm sure couldn't be avoided
TacoPoweredHelicopter
People are influenced by things even if they don't want to be.
PerkyPervertedPet
Says someone who is influenced by [put in random modern event].
narniasreal
Absolutely. The idea that someone went through WWII and it wouldn't be reflected in their creative endeavours seems questionable to me. I was just stating what Tolkien claimed.
eggmuffin
"I was deeply affected by the war, and the experience colours and informs my writing" is a very different statement from "this story is an allegory for that war". And Tolkien would be irritated with you for failing to recognize the distinction.
Dagordae
Influence isn’t allegory. Nor is applicability.
RPCharImages
He *stated* it isnt allegorical, and it isnt. We, looking back, can pin historical events that have a big impact on the past, and assume they must have had an impact on all works at that time. But that simply isnt the case. In the case of Tolkien, most of his books were already written by the time of WWII. People like to compare the fight of the 5 armies in The Hobbit to WWI, but Tolkien has stated several times, he'd already written that scene about 10yrs before WWI
quietwalker
Tolkien said that his books were not a metaphor for any real world politics. Repeatedly. Despite "experts" chiming in.
Icantthinkofaname2
It's a joke
Qualtagh
Tolkien wasn't trying to say something allegorical through the books, but that is a completely different question from what inspired them.
pgdave
Whether or not he was trying to, it seems that he did
TDhattrick1022
"Accidentally inspired by true events" and sometimes total fiction too
Sonicdahedgie
"No, watching my comrades sink into the mud until they sink and suffocate while screaming for help definitely have any bearing on my writing, especially not that bog of dead people that reach out and drag people to death trying to get help"
UncleMeaty
Fuck Tolkien. If he's so smart, how come he's dead?
DrowningLessons
gottem
Frazmatazz
Frazmatazz
FallingStar7669
I'm sure he didn't write to explicitly make connections, but he lived through two world wars. The influence was there.
MehEdits
Life imitates art so why shouldn't it be the opposite
allcattywampus
I'm afraid you're allowed to interpret literary work however you want (some interpretations being a lot more plausible or interesting or insightful than others) and the author is sometimes the last person to know what s/he's been up to
NoNameFred
Interpretation means you can validly say "The Ents remind me of Americans". But not "The Ents *are* Americans". Especially since the only Ent that we know 100% to be based on a real person, was actually based on an Englishman — C.S. Lewis, who was a close friend and colleague of Tolkein. From which, we can infer that the Ents' extended dialogue and slow action are, in fact, based on the slow and ponderous movement of ideas within Academia. i.e. Ents are a bunch of absent-minded Professors.
pgdave
"(In the reading of the book as an allegory for the war) The Ents are Americans"
Billis75
Doesn't Georgia O'Keefe say her flowers aren't vaginas?
kingrd
And yet, here we are, years later, still regurgitating the same dumb ideas and grasping at straws the author has denied
benreilly10
He said that, and he may have believed it. But given that he fought in WW1, and the obvious apparent parallels between his work and real events, it's very difficult to buy that at least on a subconscious level, there was NO world wars influence on his work. I did a 400 level class on him in my undergrad and I just don't buy it.
Kinias
That’s what makes literary interpretation so interesting though - correlations, metaphor, subjectivity of meaning, and themes can be quite different from what the author “intended” the reader to take away from a work. While Tolkien says “TLotR isn’t a metaphor for real world politics” doesn’t mean that someone who uses examples and material to interpret otherwise is “wrong”. Believe it or not, in the field of Literary Interpretation and Analysis, the “author’s intent” isn’t always relevant.
Jindujun
Yeah, sometimes the curtains are just simply blue.
lukebagpiper2
Yeah, intended by the author? Not likely. Useful comparison to learn from within reason? Sure. Applicability is fine but this post makes it sound like intentional allegory which is incorrect.
TacoPoweredHelicopter
But the post says nothing about what Tolkien claimed...it's just there opinion.
Northwindlowlander
They're not written as a metaphor, but they are deeply inspired by it. And the meme is totally in line with that.
DanCodyComics
He also might have just been lying, that is possible.
NotSomoneElse68
It need not be a metaphor. They were severe, traumatic, formative effects in his life. They could easily be present in his work without there being an intentional metaphor.
Snooj
Things just happen to be similar a lot. It doesn't have to mean anything.
BaconAlmighty
While denying the entire story as an allegory for WW2, but he did state there were certain connections to the Great War in his novels.
[deleted]
[deleted]
doesntmatter
This. If Mr T says that it's not allegorical but has some connections to the Great War, I'm going to guess he's thinking of how the war shaped him as a person and/or his outlook on life. There's a lot in LotR that seems to be about industrialisation and the industrialisation of war, for example.
miked854
In this case, I would say the Ents weren't intentionally Americans as Tolkien said he specifically avoided 1-for-1 allegory. He probably did take inspiration from the sudden influx of power in WWII and the "inefficient democracy" was really just there to create dramatic tension. The post's analysis also ignores the major shift in power from the Soviet Union switching sides in WWII - something which has no allegorical equivalent in Lord of the Rings which I'm aware of.
bohjeenie
The dead guys in the cave made a pact and reneged on it (Poland?), only to join later and complete the victory. 🤷♀️
bohjeenie
The bickering nations of humans, England and France. England (Rohan) under a useless leader (Neville Chamberlain).
bohjeenie
I say these as jokes, as you can make anything as you want it, just see the Bible for reference.
ElBivo
In JRRT's own words - "People mistake allegory for applicability."
cyno01
The Romulans in DS9 are definitely the Americans tho.
EverNotRelevant
So? That doesn't mean the interpretation isn't valid. The author's view isn't the sole meaningful take on the work.
Einbrecher
Except very often those interpretations are passed off as some hidden meaning intentionally included by the author rather than just a coincidence someone noticed and thought relevant.
neospor1n
I think a looot of literary analysis kind of goes beyond what the author thinks they wrote. I’m school we had to analyze the use of the color green in the great gatsby, no idea if author would have agreed with any of it
pgdave
Of course it does - once an artists produces a work of art, it becomes a part of a larger body of work that it's drawing from and contributing to. In a very real and meaningful way, it becomes a conversation with each reader and society and other artists. The analysis will be just as diverse and broad as that, and it will almost, by necessity, have a larger meaning than the author intended.
CannotBeBanned
It may not have been done on purpose. Sometimes we recreate things we have experienced unknowingly.
MithridateEupator
Metaphor is intentional.
WhyDontYouMakeMe
It's impossible to not put your own implicit biases into your work, no matter how much you try. Though Tolkien hated allegory, which races of man joined Sauron?
darthstormer
Of all people, can we really trust the author to say what their work was about? I'm sure my sophomore English teacher knew better than Tolkien what his work was really about. /s
SarcasticComment
the author isn't always the best authority on how the public interprets their work. Ray Bradbury claims 451 isn't about state censorship... when the state burns your house down.
latenightbreeze
I defer to Mark Twain: "PERSONS attempting to find a motive in this narra- tive will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot."
SarcasticComment
"if I don't know what the hell it is I am doing, how can you" mentality
xizar
Rodney Dangerfield, his essay failed; Kurt Vonnegut, fired.
quietwalker
Wow, deep cut.
darthOnion
So it goes
NotSomoneElse68
Captain America in his chair, the reference understood.
derpilsner
I see the /s, but there's an entire school of thought about this called Death of the Author.
kingrd
Probably a big overlap on the Venn diagram of "wine experts" who can SWEAR they can tell the difference
doesntmatter
And it's nothing but an attempt by self-centered critics and culture-knowers to elevate themselves above the people who actually create things
pgdave
Man, it's like you don't know what you're talking about, but you're *really* mad about it.
LordHosk
Thats... not what death of the author is about... Its... You know what? I don't need to interpret it, its not that long, you can read it for yourself. its 7 pages long its not that deep of a read you can read it in 10 minutes if you are a slow reader.
https://sites.tufts.edu/english292b/files/2012/01/Barthes-The-Death-of-the-Author.pdf
Rubeldegoobelstop
.
WeaselBandit
I had had it with English teachers after one of mine kept insisting that something in a text meant something hyper specific. When I asked how she could be sure that was what the author meant, she said that didn't matter as long as you as the reader could find your own meaning. I then said: "I write stories too, and I would be very upset if my readers were finding a meaning that I didn't intend from my words". Her response: "No, you wouldn't".... Oh OK then. I see it applies to spoken words too.
AnonOmis1000
I swear English teachers are like the wine snobs who would gush over box wine if they thought it was some expensive bottled stuff.
pgdave
The meaning of art comes both from the creation and the re-creation by the consumer. As an artist, you're not in control of the meaning entirely.
Despe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author
Carnivoracious
When your English teacher is accidentally teaching a psychology class. That's how I passed the essay tests from all the summer reading I didn't do. More about knowing the teacher's hang-ups than knowing the material
[deleted]
[deleted]
Carnivoracious
Ray Bradbury used to show up to talks where he would repeatedly insist that Fahrenheit 451 was about television replacing the written word as dominant rather than being about censorship.
pgdave
Well, that's not *quite* what death of the author means. Death of the author is simply one of the (many) frameworks for analyzing media. You can take the media as a piece in and of itself, without putting it in the context of an author's other works, or known biography, and analyze it independently. It's less common nowadays, but it is one of the important steps to understanding that meaning is *shared* between author and consumer, and not dictated from on high by the author.
BigBidiza
That's how things are though. The author can't control what readers makes of his work. He can only intend something. And LotR can certainly be read as an allegory for WW2, intended or not.
chesirecats
Sure, and I can also read it as Nazi propaganda too! Doesn't mean that has any merit either.
BigBidiza
Who made you gatekeeper of interpretation merit?
pgdave
Any interpretation can be read, but only some can be supported by the text itself. Some ideas may be better supported or worse supported, and its in the use of supporting details from the text that we tease out what ideas have more or less merit.