rossonerinho
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Sister Joan Chittister - "I do not believe that just because you're opposed to abortion that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is."
https://www.popsugar.com/news/Catholic-Nun-Quote-Abortion-43096831
My first post that has gone viral. I wish it had been on a more whimsical subject.
Personally I think abortion is a terrible thing. But if I had a daughter who was so desperate that she resorted to having an abortion, I'd want it to be safe and legal.
luvas
I consider overpopulation a more than good enough reason to cull unborn children that no one (parents or government) wants to care for.
luvas
Too many disadvantages stacked up against such a child and too small a chance for their lives to be meaningful or felony free. We should
luvas
care for the lives that already exist before considering unwanted new additions. Barbaric, but to do otherwise wouldn't be capitalistic.
LarfleezePlz
dereklarsen
And it was...
MuffinProof
Sith your ass down
dickable
LarfleezePlz
Straga27
Well that's a new and rather good gif I've never seen before. +1
AlexDuos
How have I never seen this before
LarfleezePlz
Idk but I got you now fam
BettinYouLoveFreakMode
Thank you for bringing this to more people's attention, my first time seeing it too.
YourFriendlyNeighborhoodWizard
I prefer this one
v
01100011011001010111001001100001
Was about to say that I like the Kylo gif better... then I saw. Then I saw...
AnUnfortunateFreezeFrame
yo, wtf XD
Leverbee
Now that's my kind of chair!
ShaunDreclin
Safe, legal, and rare. Nobody wants people to use abortions instead of birth control, its a horrible emotional thing to go through.
pizzaparty
It wasn't emotional for me, but it was EXCRUCIATINGLY painful. I screamed. Either way, you're still right: no one *wants* to have one.
ShaunDreclin
It was painful? I thought they'd have people on anesthetic. virtual hugs to you :(
pizzaparty
Apparently general anaesthetic is standard in other countries, but not in the US. I was offered twilight sedation and/or a couple tylenols.
Tashrex
I appreciate that you support the rights even though you don't like them. You are cool beans
IssacOppenheimer
Pro-lifers also seem to be against birth control insurance coverage, despite it being the most effective means at preventing abortions.
[deleted]
[deleted]
MadCat221
You understand their true motivation.
MysteriousLeigh
Majority of pro-lifers are part of religions that oppose birth control. The others seem to think birth control will make women sluts.
frostybox
and some of them it seems are spiteful that they got knocked up and had all those kids, you should have to as well.
FunkyZombie
"Morality has no place in politics"-Machiavelli, like 500 years ago. (Not a direct quote)
kerrath
I don't think that this is an argument in favor of abortion. I think it's an argument in favor of expanding care for children.
Onefoggynight
it's not an argument in favour of abortion, it's just giving them another "point in their favour" to why you can't have one. more bullshit.
vyciunass
I agree.I think what she says could be something like:if you educate and provide good life conditions for all thr' would be no reason 4abort
SingleNiceFedoraWearingClassyGuycautiondonotfriendzone
Yep. Literally comes down to "I'd rather die than be poor."
blepblepblepblep
Abortions are not a good thing, though sometimes they are necessary.
RepostSadistic
You have deviated a few micrometers away from the 'all abortions are good' position. You shall be punished.
QuietScreaming
Exactly. People think this is such a major statement against abortion but it's really just how real pro-life people feel about it
pablopicscatcho
It's an argument for having depth to your morals instead of painting everything black and white.
Tunisia
It's an argument for separating 'pro-life' from 'anti-choice'. In the US, most anti-choicers are not pro-lifers, but they claim to be.
Vaanhalen
That's a wildly bold statement. Maybe among politicians but not among the populace
Tunisia
Bollocks. Nearly 50% of the country votes both against abortion and against accessible reproductive healthcare.
Vaanhalen
K 1) you've clearly got your own personal definition of "prolife" that involves preventing pregnancy 2) is there a yearly abortion vote?
Tunisia
Reproductive healthcare isn't just contraception.
StuntManPat
No one is in favor of abortion, unless they feel the world is overpopulated. What we all want is a World where they aren't necessary.
busybusybumblebee
This....this is a very good point.
AMacGyver
Making access to contraceptives easier, providing actual sex education, and having a social safety net for underprivileged parents (1/2)
AMacGyver
Would drive abortion rates down farther than trying to make it illegal ever would, imho (2/2)
Idoitallforthecookies
I think its an argument about what pro-lifers should really be worried about & how their anti-abortion fervor is misplaced. Butwhatdoiknow
ForgotMyOtherAcct
As a pro-lifer who gets into arguments about this with people at church, yeah it's annoying and logically inconsistent.
Vaanhalen
Something I find makes the debate easier is oversimplifying the opposing argument. Just be really presumptive. Then, everyone's a hypocrite.
Idoitallforthecookies
Alas, the human condition. Caint nobody agree on nuffin.
andrewtater
The base argument is about the morality of people not taking responsibility for their actions. If you don't want kids, don't have sex...
Idoitallforthecookies
Sex is a basic animal need, its not like "if you dont want calloused fingers, dont play the guitar". Gross over simplification of the issue.
andrewtater
Agreed, but the anti-abortion cause is a way of influencing those actions considered immoral (out of wedlock sex) by upping the risk
Idoitallforthecookies
And thats assuming that all people need to be governed by the morality of a given group who believes themselves to be right and that their-
Idoitallforthecookies
So i understand what you're saying and that prolifers have the right to feel as they do, however i disagree with them & how they go about it
VictusVonGuyver
Children are birthed with unready/unfitting parents, yet the state and society refuse to provide abortion or support. Seems fitting to me.
kerrath
Right, but claiming it as a pro-abortion argument is really misleading. It's not.
raminagrobis
nobody claimed it was a pro abortion argument
VictusVonGuyver
True, though it is a topic that overlaps. The real question is: Why do we sabotage basic healthcare for the average citizen to begin with?
Penguinsruletheworld
Because Morons/racists/bigots, think the world revolves around them and They "earned" everything they have and use.
CrazySciFiFan
SamaelTheVenomOfGod
I was deeply disappointed that this did not end with "OP is a faggot"
TheOwlsAreNotWhatTheySeem69
I'm confused but aroused.
puppiesarethebestpeople
What movie is this from?
straikychan
David Copperfield: the last spoonbender
Rockers202
Chain Reaction.
Jantwan
Keanu
KingNova
Tusk
BeetleDaddy
Matrix
puppiesarethebestpeople
Thank you!
BeetleDaddy
Youre welcome. I see too many people reply with the wrong answer intentionally and i just like to help out
AccioBatarang
an upvote for the helpful servant of cthulu!
Dartmuthia
Sandstorm - Darude
AnythingMuchShorter
Bill and Ted's Existentialist adventure
puppiesarethebestpeople
Now thats a good movie
pookieeatworld
TheBasementNerd
I'm sorry I try not to be mean but.....how have you not heard this phrase and what it's from before in your life? How old are you?
FragileReality
It came out and was THE thing when I was in HS but I've only seen it once and wouldn't have gotten the reference w/o help.
puppiesarethebestpeople
I haven't seen the movie in about 15 years so I don't remember every detail :) I'm not a huge movie buff my b
working30hoursADay
Alright. You've saved yourself...for now
pookieeatworld
This reminds me. I had a buddy once that said he lost a ton of respect for me because I hadn't seen The Goonies, and he was fucking serious.
JoMamasHouse
My favorite matrix scene hands down
fluhatinrapper
I gotta say, I like it when they fight milli vanilli
Chickenchaserr
Can you explain why? I've never seen the movie
Vaanhalen
Just watch the movie
stefbluesky
Get ye to blockbuster. Stat!
JoMamasHouse
Because it is when Neo begins to realize that the barriers that have been limiting his power don't actually exist.
MadCat221
Their hypocrisy runs deeper than that. They're not about Pro-Life, they're about Pro-Slutshaming. They wish to punish women who refuse to->
MadCat221
->submit to their REpressive, REactionary, REligious social and sexual mores. Don't believe me? Ask them about their stances on ->
MadCat221
->contraceptices; things that would preclude the need for abortions in the first place.
SubtleAsAHammer
You mean to say that asking everybody to pay for their own contraception is "Slutshaming"? Maybe you could explain that for us.
MadCat221
Did I say that? No I did not. I am saying that they're against contraceptives in the first place. Misconstruing my stance like that is a->
MadCat221
->form of lying.
elismith07225
Oooooo I wish I could upvote this a million fucking times, I've been trying to say this for years fucking years!!!!!!!!
HmmICantThinkOfACleverUsernameRightNow
I don't think she was saying she was pro-choice, though; it just sounds like a call to arms in fixing the social issues after the birth.
sprbwlshuffler
Nobody likes abortion. What pro-lifers and pro-choicers need to do is work together to help reduce the amount of abortions via access (1)
[deleted]
[deleted]
IFoughtTheLawAndTheLaw1
Great bit and actually considerate of both opinions on the matter without being too self righteous about the other. "I mean they believe (1)
IFoughtTheLawAndTheLaw1
It's actually murder. MURDER! Give them a fucking break!" An interesting point from a comedian on the opposite side of the debate haha.
MeezerStandardTime
It isn't a matter of not "working together"; those are things that people who are pro-choice support, and many pro-lifers refuse to.
alch1e
There is nothing wrong with abortion. It is not more evil than any other medical procedure and there should not be guilt for having one.
Carefuler
There is nothing wrong with illegal harvest of human organs. It is not more evil than any other medical procedure and there should /1
Carefuler
not be guilt for taking one. /2
sprbwlshuffler
to birth control, and proper sex education (i.e. use a fucking condom). (2)
Carefuler
Yeah, because condoms are So hard to find in the U.S.!
sprbwlshuffler
People would rather risk it and have sex without one. I asked my friend once why he does that. He said that it feels too good. It's bad.
TheJazzGhost
Many pro-lifers are against those sensible ideas.
Ben1045
What other kind of condom is there?
foxxplay
Good luck getting the left and the right to work together on anything.
SomeCrazyNerd
That's what Jimmy Carter tried to do. "I'm not aginast Roe v Wade but I don't want abortions to be common"
Fahargo
The very concept of not liking abortions but still thinking they should be allowed is illogical. It's either something wrong and 1/2
MoreLikeLawlSchool
I don't like you, but I don't think you're existence should be illegal.
Metalsmith21
You don't understand the word choice or consent do you?
HighlandPotatoe
And having a 20 week abortion due to severe abnormalities?
Fahargo
shouldn't be allowed to happen, or it's nothing at all and doesn't matter. You can't disagree with a serial killer but still think they 2/3
Fahargo
should go on a rampage.
whatsisname
I don't like shooting people dead but I think that it should still be legal to shoot armed home invaders. Sometimes situations are shitty.
Fahargo
The real comparison would be you invited someone into your home then shot them in the face. But that's just me
Ouroborus
You can not want to get one yourself without wanting to force everyone to your view.
Fahargo
But that misunderstands what's wrong with it. Why feel bad about abortion at all? Why dislike it? Is it because there's something 1/2
Fahargo
inherently wrong with it? If not why care at all about it? Something can't be half wrong.
Metalsmith21
Should we add Tolerance and Diversity to the list of words you don't understand?
Fahargo
Right because actually caring about the unborn must mean I'm racist to right? Idiot
Metalsmith21
Wrong. Thank you for the confirmation that you don't understand the words Tolerance and Diversity.
NinjaDoughnut
You know, you can be pro-birth AND pro-life...
Munchman347
Then you are not being addressed by her message...
michaelladawn
I may be in the minority on this one, but sometimes abortion is the right answer, sometimes it's the only answer. Even when it feels wrong.
TheGrumpest
Yup.
frostybox
i know i'd be a horrible mother, i'd do it if i had to. thankfully I have birthcontrol (mostly for horrid menses) and BF is snipped.
proutonium
I upvoted her comment and then downvoted when you said abortions are terrible. It is too big an issue for you to dismiss as terrible.
KatehasaBlog
spicypiggy
Preach it Sister!
wellju
How is that news to anyone? How does an alleged 1st would country even has to debate that topic on such a low level?
BillysLegendaryCrack
The weird thing about saying a potential life is a life is there's a potential life constantly. Basically it's like saying if you are not 1)
ThatDwarfWhoStealsYourOpinions
Completely false equivalency. A fetus is life underway. Barring medical issues, it WILL become a child.
BillysLegendaryCrack
currently making a baby you are denying a person their life. Anyone not getting pregnant right now is taking a potential life. 2)
squirrelfury
Look up the quiverfull movement.
Holinyx05
I've never met anyone Pro-Life. Pro-Fetus and Pro-Birth, yes. But they usually tend to hope people on food stamps die. Praise Jeebus
luvas
Ironically, if people on food stamps could abort their babies or be sterilized, they all would indeed eventually die.
PunchViolenceInTheFace
Dat straw man tho
ForgotMyOtherAcct
On that note, I hate how so many Christians aren't fervently opposed to the death penalty. Can't save souls if they're dead.
SomeCrazyNerd
Death penalties are in the bible. As is war, homophobia and the oppression of women. It's very conflicted on love and peace.
ForgotMyOtherAcct
It is. But like any source with varying authors and perspectives, the bible isn't always of one logical perspective. The only thing I
ForgotMyOtherAcct
think unites christians is their belief that god made heaven and lets us in for free, and we don't deserve it, but by knowing and accepting
ForgotMyOtherAcct
it, we are in. Trying to prevent someone else from having that seems to be the worst thing you could ever do.
luvas
Huh, never thought of that. Missionary folk did try to convert dying people in historical times
Lyrian
Sure, lets go in the completely other direction. Temporally sterilize everyone and have them apply to be parents.
luvas
I would actually advocate for this. Poor people should not reproduce. Even though making it so infringes on too many rights in the US.
Tundra314
I honestly wish this would happen but... know it won't
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
even just needing a medical procedure to be able to have children would severely lower the rate for unwanted pregnancies.
Carefuler
Come up with the way to do that and people would jump all over it.
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
Religious beliefs should not be a basis for law
JohnLawlor
prolife =/= religion
FloppyPankake47
"Cough" gay marriage " cough"
HitlersArtCritic
Fun fact, hate on that comes from the basic rule of "If you can't get pregnant from it, its bad" Yes this includes oral, and not creampieing
hardytardigrade
I disagree. Religion should not be THE basis for law. in areas where it happens to overlap with rationality, it's fine to base laws on it.
Niggulon
Why involve religion at all then?
hardytardigrade
I'm not sure why I posted that, I take it back
MayorDeweyMayorDewey
how the hell do you have 84 downvotes? this is common sense man
Likeamamagoose
Laws are made from what people think is right or wrong. Each person has a say regardless of what they base it on
Metalsmith21
Sure as long as you're not expecting people to make sense.
Vaanhalen
Should morality not be a basis for law? The same moral reason for Left policies drives Right abortion views. Open your mind
ThorgalAegirsson
But moral code should.
Carefuler
How about personal ideals?
Vespy
But laws (and their abstractions, rights) are just objectively agreed interpretations of ethics, so it's greyer than that.
maststick
As a statement in isolation this comment should have a thousand more points than it does
spareseatonmyface
Well, not really. For the most part, religion has formed the core basis of our morals, and morals are what dictates laws, so.....
MoreLikeLawlSchool
Bunch of people disagreeing with you until any non-Judeo-Christian tries to pass a law based on their religion.
JohnnyTitelips
I have no issue with this if that is the belief of the majority of people in their country and doesn't violate human rights. You (1/2)
JohnnyTitelips
wanna force your people to wear head scarves? Go right the fuck ahead. Just miss me with that shit.
MoreLikeLawlSchool
You just proved my point. But your view as to the majority religion runs counter to the very foundation of the US Constitution. I realize
MoreLikeLawlSchool
You may not be American, but the counter-majoritarian ethos of the US in regard to fundamental rights is one that I personally believe
RHFiesling
MindlessChaos
I don't think philosophically that makes any sense. Human thought/divine inspiration is the foundation for law and religious beliefs (1)
MindlessChaos
and simply disqualifying a "religious" basis for law seems like an oversimplification.(2/2)
MindlessChaos
I guess some people do not understand how morality works. O.o
FlyingDeetus
Watery tarts throwing scimitars should be no basis for a system of government
daguq
All your basis should now belong to us.
anneboleynfan1
You don't wield supreme authority just because some watery tart lobbed a sword at you
GoodbyeOldAccount
Eh, it comes down to same way they get Creationism in schools. Strip out any mention of God etc, but have all the no-abortiony stuff there
spongebobmingepants
Tell that to the Irish government
spareseatonmyface
We're not that bad anymore. On a couple of things, yeah, but for the most part, we're pretty good on most things.
truckdrivershowcase
True DAT.
LlamaLingo
So murder should be legal? Most big laws comes from religion
twofishtails
Fundamentals of both law and religion originate from the same basic roots that given all of our behavior. They will be similar.
ittybittytittycommittee
She doesn't sound particularly religious in this quote, sounds more like she's using morality, like any human being should, religious or not
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
Wasn't really talking about her, just in general
MaximumMarks
The abortion divide doesnt nessicarily mean a religious divide. I'm not religious but lean more towards the pro-life argument.
DTG09
Why?
MaximumMarks
Because i think every person has a righr to live, and no one but the person hisherself can make that choice for them. The right to live 1/2
RHFiesling
and "pray tell" it sounds u think religious ppl can´t be moral? Or that u think sane moral views can´t be religous?
MayorDeweyMayorDewey
i think he means we dont live in a fucking theocracy where rules from a higher power that arguably doesn't exist influences government
RHFiesling
we do not? I like that idea but unless you are from france or another secular nation, that is only true in the letter & 4ever Contested
RHFiesling
as long as you are pretty much inelegible for office without saying "God bless" in the US...... if you from the US I mean
fedthepoopy
I think he was commenting on people thinking abortion shouldnt be illegal cuz of religion
bane83
*Should
fedthepoopy
Whoops my bad lol
MaximumMarks
I know, and I replied that not all people who think abortion is morally wrong are religious.
Haiddon
wanting more humans to have a chance at life should be the basis for most laws. I mean, it's why murder is illegal
Metalsmith21
Sad how people view the enforced slavery of half the human race as "wanting more humans to have a chance at life" except for women. Amirite?
Haiddon
not really sure how "I want more people to be alive" translates to "we should enslave half of humanity" have fun in your own world though.
Metalsmith21
Its a common refrain, talk about "babies" and make the woman invisible. Women, who cares what they want, they're just incubators with legs.
Haiddon
I neither said nor implied that the mother has to take care of the kid. Ideally, the kid is raised in a family, but there are other options.
ForgotMyOtherAcct
People who haven't been born yet, who cares what they want, they are just mindless parasites on women anyway. That circular never ends.
JohnnyTitelips
Yeah that's a nice platitude you got there but obviously, since >90% of people are religious, they're gonna be the basis for law.
Niggulon
Let's not make sweeping assumptions about the world based on you growing up in Alabama.
JohnnyTitelips
I didn't grow up in Alabama, and I'm making observations, not assumptions, based on easily-accessible statistics.
derekjohn
In America maybe, nowhere near that many in Europe.
JohnnyTitelips
No, but still a majority, and I was referring to the world as a whole anyway. Interesting that you immediately assumed I was referring (1/2)
JohnnyTitelips
to the United States though.
Magiimice
Even then you are still basing the laws on a moral framework from a school of thought, even if it's an atheistic one.
derekjohn
I think 'enlightened self-interest' is nearer the mark. I don't want other people doing bad things to me, therefore I don't do it to them.
TheRealHenryVIII
It's impossible to wholly separate what one defines as their belief/ideas and "religion". Secular humanism is technically a religion.
Munchman347
Any societal standard that rejects religion must be a religion in and of itself! Tell the Atheists and Agnostics how they're wrong, LOL...
Bossdogs
...How?
TheRealHenryVIII
Humans are inherently "homo religiosis" and will fervently hold onto any deeply held belief such as secularism or religion as a religion.
Fahargo
Pro-life is not a belief based on religion
hardytardigrade
The idea that a single cell is a person is definitely based on faith or fantasy, not fact.
ForgotMyOtherAcct
When it comes to scientific fact, we don't really have a good definition at all for what a person is.
hardytardigrade
1) Sure we do. We can tell that a person no longer exists when it doesn't have the structures needed for higher brain function. So we can
hardytardigrade
2) also tell when a person doesn't exist yet- when the structures necessary for higher brain function haven't formed.
ForgotMyOtherAcct
well, that is a hard and fast definition, but there are fuzzy edges. Are coma patients people? Would a brain in a jar be a person?
Fahargo
A person is developing. A person doesn't suddenly come into existence the moment it pops out of a vagina. The vagina isn't the bestower 1/2
hardytardigrade
That's correct. I don't see where anyone said otherwise.
Fahargo
of person hood. Deciding what is a person based on your convenience is the same argument for slavery
hardytardigrade
It's not. Determining when a person has come into existence is not at all the same as deciding which fully-developed people are human.
hardytardigrade
And it's not in any way based on "convenience", it's based on facts which are already used to determine whether a person is alive or not.
EricReaume
The issue occurs when the religion teaches that abortion is literally murdering a baby. If you believed that wouldn't you fight it?
Haiddon
I mean, logic and science also say that abortion is murder. considering that life begins as soon as the sperm finishes fertilizing the egg,
NicCagesDickRages
Actually life began before that as both the sperm and the egg are alive. END MASTURBATION! MENSTRUATION IS MURDER!
Zyrixion
2/2 Anything beside that is your own personal bias, not scientific fact.
Zyrixion
The only solid declaration of when an embryo is considered a full human life that science has made, is ~24-26 weeks into pregnancy.
Haiddon
except that it became alive at conception, and we know it's human, therefore, it is a human life. this is literally as simple as 1+2=3
Zyrixion
Bluntly, that's just your opinion, man. Don't confuse opinion with scientific fact.
ratfaceddog
Circular reasoning is fun for the whole family!
Haiddon
what circle? it's a simple concept. life begins at conception. after that, do your best to take care of it, or find someone else who will.
spareseatonmyface
Life begins at conception? Where did you find science that declares that that is the case?
CrustyMustard91
To be fair, it also says stuff about helping the sick and poor...
ratfaceddog
It also had a talking donkey and zombies.
fedthepoopy
Yet for some reason the christianright wing in our country is against food stamps, a minimum wage, welfare, etc. idgi
MindlessChaos
The "Christian Right Wing" believes in charity and is very generous... Charity vs Govt is the debate. Min Wage debate is due to the (1)
MindlessChaos
Economic effects of having a minimum wage (it causes a loss of jobs) Really though it requires an understanding of economics to be able (2)
SouthernLSavage
I live as an agnostic in the south, the belief is that people should do these things anyway, why have the gov get involved.
SouthernLSavage
The problem then is that they vote that the gov should do these things, and then those same people tend to not do anything for those in need
Zyrixion
I don't think it's actually proper to call them christian, they're just rich bigots using religion as a smokescreen to justify themselves.
wingdinger
And that isnt really a religion thing. Most people would agree that at some gestation it becomes a human, so why not have a reasonable 1/
wingdinger
2 discussion about exactly when it becomes a baby (immoral) instead of screaming "my body, my choice". Clearly theres more to it
DTG09
dead at 0 or your choice suffering, neglected, addicted to drugs or a criminal for 80+? obviously these aren't the rule when it comes to 1/2
DTG09
children born in poverty, as some rise against it, but I'm willing to bet more than 70% of them do grow up that way
BiteTheHandsThatThieve
Because ultimately the issue isn't about the life of the baby but the right to autonomy of one's own body.
FragileReality
Thiiiiiiis
wingdinger
So youre all for voluntary abortions up until birth? Not saying youre wrong, but I think a lot of people would disagree with you
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
you see that gets tried but pro-lifers always say "ITS ALWAYS A BABY" legally there is a point non medically needed abortions arent allowed
wingdinger
You have to realize that when you say "my body my choice" youre implying to a lot of people that up until the day it is born its your choice
wingdinger
Oh I'm arguing against both sides. Either side that doesnt come to the table to discuss the realistic morality of the issue are idiots
fedthepoopy
Its funny because there are a bunch of passages on the bible that are very clearly pro abortion but Christians just ignore thag
pelicanface
Yeah...definitely not...
fedthepoopy
I replied to the other comment on this thread with what I was talking about
PizzaTammer
Where?
fedthepoopy
I can explain them if you want
Zcarsnarl
yeah, I'm waiting on the sauce too.
fedthepoopy
(Exodus 21:22-23), (Numbers 3:15-16), (Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28)
Dandolo
Exodus says that if someone causes a woman to miscarry, he should be put to death. Only an illiterate would say that that supports abortion.
JustFuckingWatchCowboyBebop
There are many laws that are based on religion in the US, and I think that some are good. Religion provides a moral compass for many people.
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
Ferrumkit
Core basis of alot of laws, "Don't do X or X will happen", The difference is convincing people there is more punishment after death.
[deleted]
[deleted]
maststick
Don't confuse religion with morality. The first should have no place in law making, the second should never be absent
JustFuckingWatchCowboyBebop
I'm just saying that it provides an artificial moral compass for a lot of folks, and that's better than nothing
[deleted]
[deleted]
JustFuckingWatchCowboyBebop
If they don't want to help an old person cross the street but societal pressures make them, I think that's fine. But it can bottle up
wellju
No, religion makes people feel shame and guilt. The moral compass is given by society and ethics education. Not by those child molesters.
JustFuckingWatchCowboyBebop
I, as an atheist, encourage you to attend church. It's a very happy get-together, usually very uplifting.
wellju
Nothing wrong with community places where people get together. But I don't have to deny science to have a good afternoon.
JustFuckingWatchCowboyBebop
You don't, and denying science isn't a thing. They deny truth. Science is a method to find truth.
Metalsmith21
You can't explain religious morals except to say that god doesn't want you do to some things. That's not good enough reason for anything.
Spongybunny
There are a lot of folks who replace critical thinking with religion and think they're done.
Spongybunny
A lot of laws are based on the golden rule, people assume they're based on religion, and then propose future rules based on religion.
VictusVonGuyver
True, but there's a reason most of them have been removed/ignored. One law was you would be arrested if a married man was in another (cont)
VictusVonGuyver
womans home. This law was applied in a recent case. Woman used it to arrest her divorcing husband as he had gotten a new girlfriend.
LumpySpaceBrotha
So does basic human nature. Murder has been a big no-no for millennia
derekjohn
Not strictly true if you also believe in armies.
litelbrown
And yet human nature tells us plenty of people are ok with murdering someone.
SidneyHarbor
Basic human nature is to serve only your own interests, actually.
LumpySpaceBrotha
yet society wouldnt exist if absolutely everybody focused on their own interests... Humans are pack/tribal animals.
Ferrumkit
This. Until the advent of societal laws and morality of religions started, smashing someone elses skull was the efficient end of an argument
leodavinci1
This is an old argument and there is absolutely zero evidence to support it. It's a baseless contention by the religious.
TheRealHenryVIII
Religion in itself is amoral, depending on the religion. Some religions could require murder or other heinous crimes. Still a religion.
Ferrumkit
It's perspective driven to the participant of those religions, it is a moral duty. Those morals are inhand steeped into that societal fabric
Ferrumkit
Western civilization for better or worse was heavily influenced by Rome after it was heavily Christianized so it have deep roots of morality
leodavinci1
Don't confuse correlation with causality.
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
But because god said so (whatever god) should not be a legal arguement
JustFuckingWatchCowboyBebop
No, but the indoctrination of "thou shall not kill" has prompted a lot of people to think murder is bad. It. can be useful
Spongybunny
Followed closely by "my religious text promotes these ideas and looks down upon these other ones".
awkwardmoment
Why? That seems more rhetorical sleight of hand than rational position.
Metalsmith21
Because adding god to any explanation doesn't actually explain anything.
Bossdogs
In liberal democracy legislation has to protect religious freedom. Laws based on dogma without further rational bases do not.
awkwardmoment
Please actually state your assumption if you're going to use it.
Bossdogs
I'm sorry? It seems pretty clear. If a law is derived from dogmatic reasoning, without further rational bases, it fails to protect 1/
awkwardmoment
You are conflating the coercive problem of democracy with your personal views on religion.
Bossdogs
people who do not follow that religion from having to adhere to its tenets. In a liberal democracy this is a problem. 2/2
Whatwhatsomethingbutt
Catholic charities have been leading the charge for food, housing and education in most cities for a century.
gimmemashwho
Let's see how that worked out in Ireland: http://www.thejournal.ie/human-remains-found-baby-home-tuam-3268465-Mar2017/
Nalianna
do religious people know?
Munchman347
And failing miserably. Hence, social services...
ThatDwarfWhoStealsYourOpinions
How does this apply to people who believe in both? Why is hypocrisy assumed?
TheGrumpest
Look around you at the people who are vocally pro-life.
MoreLikeLawlSchool
Because it's actively promoted by a majority of those on that end of the political spectrum.
SamaelTheVenomOfGod
Because a number of vocal "pro-birth" groups are not so solid on the "pro-life" bit. She's not talking about those who believe in both.
knifeskills
It angers me when people have children that they cannot afford to give a full & meaningful life and education to. Parenthood is beyond birth
luvas
I may be in the minority for this, but I agree. Too many uncared for children growing into criminals that may as well be nipped in the bud.
luvas
Children need real direction, care and support. If couples can't offer that, then they should not have children, even if they abort one.
Carefuler
It angers me when people kill an innocent human being for their own convenience, and also when they engage in intercourse while 1/
HeywouldJablowme
Be angry all you want, but your philosophy only punishes the child so you're a hypocrite
Carefuler
they can not support a resulting child.
HeywouldJablowme
So people that can't afford to raise a child shouldn't be allowed to have sex?
Carefuler
That practice has worked well for millions of people. What has also worked well is the father working extra jobs, that kind of thing.
luvas
I'd sooner sterilize a large portion of the population than to force them to care for a child they don't want. Not even the child wins there
TheGrumpest
Have you ever heard of birth control?
Carefuler
Yeah, I heard it fails a lot.
GavinScreaming
Yea that abstinence really works at stopping people from having sex. Oh wait...
Carefuler
They can still have sex if they really want to, just be aware it would be illegal to kill the resulting child.
TheGrumpest
Nobody gets an abortion for "convenience"
Carefuler
It's more convenient than letting your child live apparently.
hatofrighteousfury
This is properly referred to as a strawman fallacy. No one has a stated goal of causing more children to go hungry, for instance. >>
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hatofrighteousfury
Your statement is based on the same false assumption that issues affecting born kids have NO other impacts on any aspect of anything.
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hatofrighteousfury
There's ALWAYS a segment; we disagree on how big & influential it is. No one w real influence holds the strawman position this post whacks.>
hatofrighteousfury
For your claim to be valid, that person would have to be against all programs, govt, church, etc. Who holds that? Not even libertarians.
hatofrighteousfury
For example: Virtually no one wants to eliminate all welfare, but reforming it may affect some kids. That doesn't make reform anti-life.
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hatofrighteousfury
When it appears to be so, it is a case of what the Church calls 'double effect,' which is also the case in which the Church allows abortion
hatofrighteousfury
One can disagree on whether the stated motive is actually achieved or worth the attempt, but what she claims here is dishonest.
TheGrumpest
It's not a stated goal. It is however a part of many pro-lifers' worldview to spew hatred of the poor an basically wish death upon them.
hatofrighteousfury
Your statement is based on the same false assumption that issues affecting born kids have NO other impacts on any aspect of anything.
Project9
A lot of people who wanna ban abortion to save unborn babies don't want to do anything to curb gun violence after umpteenth mass shooting.
GavinScreaming
I lost any respect For Republican senators after Sandy Hook. Cry about abortion and then say these no gun problem when children are murdered
TheGrumpest
Or protect our water or food, or guarantee a living minimum wage, or educate anyone, or do anything that even remotely helps other people.
SomeCrazyNerd
They don't believe it will help or that it is worth the loss of what they view as a freedom and tradition.
PunchViolenceInTheFace
Sorry but I hate to say this, the 2nd amendment is that valuable. We need mental health reform and the stigma gone, not our rights reduced.
Moridin23
This is BS. Pro-lifers think that you shouldn't (in their mind) murder children out of convenience. Despite the arguments, most abortions 1/
Munchman347
No one is advocating the murder of children, Foetus' are legally fair game though...
VeryMoistTowelettes
I don't agree with abortions out of convenience but I would never take away a woman's right to have one. 1/2
VeryMoistTowelettes
2/2 Coat hanger sales and back alley abortions would increase if abortion was ever outlawed. I'd rather provide abortions AND sex ed/contra
Moridin23
I didn't say there was a feasible way to end abortions. I'm saying that liberals need to stop seeing the other side as being motivated 1/3
Moridin23
By hatred. Too much of politics is liberals assuming they have the moral high ground and screaming "bigots" at anyone who pokes holes in it
Moridin23
are not the result of rape or incest. Usually it is because people made a bad decision or had an accident while engaging in an activity 2/
Moridin23
that has a known possible consequence. They then have an abortion to avoid those consequences on their lives. That is completely in-line 3/
Metalsmith21
This is why we leave car accident victims to die on the side of the road, right?
Moridin23
No. We save people who are in danger. As people who are trying to stop abortions believe they're doing
Metalsmith21
A fetus is a person only by applying tortured logic and making new definitions only applied to fetus. Till the 22nd week it cant feel pain.
TheGrumpest
See, I think it's actually untrue to say "known consequence" for some (not all) cases, because of how bad sex ed is for most people.
Moridin23
with the conservative belief that people should be responsible for themselves and their families. Further, most conservatives are not 4/
Moridin23
completely against the idea of supporting struggling families or paying for education, they just have problems with how shitty of a job 5/
Moridin23
these agencies do in their tasks and how pointlessly expensive it often is. The main goal of social programs need to be to permanently 6/
Metalsmith21
And if you loose your job due to illness or injury, fuck em they shouln't have gotten sick in the first place.
MoreLikeLawlSchool
So it comes back to punishing people for having sex.
Moridin23
Having a baby is not punishment for having sex. It's the predictable biological result of sex
justareallylongemailaddress
That makes me feel better about being a pro choice Catholic. It's all or nothing, abort if unsure.
MarvaNipp
I am also a pro-choice Catholic. There are many of us. People are multi-dimensional, and it's ok to have beliefs that sometimes conflict
Cowmatt
thats a poor basis to make a choice. my girlfriend got pregnant and you bet we were unsure. now we are married with 2 amazing kids.
Carefuler
Completely retarded. By this logic I shouldn't save a drowning child's life if I can't put them through college? please think b 4 u post.
Dionysus187
You really think an abortion and a kid drowning are comparable? Did you get left under water a little too long yourself?
Carefuler
Both are the end of a life. What if a baby was drown right after its umbilical was cut. Would that be more comparable to you?
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6313326
I know some Jesuits who will be very surprised that they're not supposed to question church doctrine.
JohnnyTitelips
TIL disagreeing with one thing compromises an entire belief system. "You think pot should be legal? Just find a new country that fits this."
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redvald
You are so mistaken about religion.
UncannyMonkeyPaw
You... Like... Realize this applies to all catholics/abrahamic faiths right?
SammyDJr2
Addendum. You said it yourself: "it's all or nothing" you can't be Catholic and pro choice.
redvald
Yes you can, I am, my father is, my mother is (and she works for the catholic church), most catholics I know are pro choice on fait.
JohnnyTitelips
TIL disagreeing with one thing compromises an entire belief system. "You think pot should be legal? Just find a new country that fits this."
RichardAlmond
That's not a thing. It's a mortal sin according to Catholic doctrine. You are welcome to join the other protestants of Church teaching.
GavinScreaming
That not really how religious belief works for most people
Ovaender
Sorry, but you have to accept that's not how belief works.
JohnnyTitelips
TIL disagreeing with one thing compromises an entire belief system. "You think pot should be legal? Just find a new country that fits this."
hilhas1
If every religion/denomination was all or nothing a lot of religions would have no people.
DefinitelyNotTippster
Please cite the relevant "Abortion = Mortal Sin" passage of the Bible...
UncannyMonkeyPaw
Ppl go by what they want Jesus to have said, not what he said. Most Christians are Paulians.
SammyDJr2
https://www.catholic.com/qa/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-that-abortion-is-wrong
DefinitelyNotTippster
A stretch at best.
SammyDJr2
"Abort if unsure?" Seriously? Look at any biology textbook. Science has proved that there is life at very early stages of development
Tundra314
The biggest issue is defining life and when it starts
SammyDJr2
https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html
Tundra314
That still doesn't define when "life" starts just the development process
Tundra314
So it hasn't proved when life starts. It's a continuum that people can't figure out where to draw the line of when it starts
SammyDJr2
Doesn't life begin at the beginning of the Development process?