CrossEyedPigeonToed
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I am a straight white man who considers himself an ally, and very supportive of LGBTQ+ rights. I lean towards I don't think it's fair, but I'm posting this to get perspective of those who support it. I am open to any argument for or against, but please keep it rational and civil. I'm just trying to learn here, and maybe others can too. Thank you!
FP edit: Thank you to all who commented! I learned a lot from a variety of different viewpoints, and got some good sauce for further research. And a very special thank you for keeping it civil on such a sensitive topic. You guys rock!
Marsmallowmancer
I'm a trans woman and I also wonder about this. But it's important to remember A) no one is going to go through years of treatment, ostracization, and societal pushback just to win at high school sports. And B) high school sports aren't about winning. Ask any (good) coach and they'll tell you it's about learning teamwork and discipline. The argument isn't about the sports. It never has been. It's about policing trans people and keeping them outsiders and unhappy.
lemonofdoom2
Mot directed at you personally but all the people spouting anyi-trans rhetoric about trans people competing as their chosen gender. Recently there was someone who placed 6,000 out of 14,000 in a marathon that people are complaining about. Like bro, they finished in the top 50%, not the top 50.
TalleyZorah
Just want to applaud you OP for being open to having your mind changed either way-- it's nice to see in a world that's often so polarized. I'm a bit like you, but my main stance is how angry it gets me when tax dollars are spent legislating this at the school kid level instead of protecting those kids from, oh I don't know, guns? Going hungry? Literally anything else.
Heisanevilgenius
I once was denied entry to a Leftist Facebook group because in my application it asked me if there are only two genders, and I answered "I don't know. I'm going to reserve judgement until I read some more research on the subject."
transientmind
Especially when it affects like… five kids in the entire state who just wanna be who they are without having to be excluded from a hobby/lifestyle/passion for it.
morninggloryshade777
It's about control over others, & a political distraction/dog whistle:(
MrJollyBear
I’m a straight ally and am all for LGBTQ rights, but this specific one doesn’t come down to a political issue at all. It’s purely medical and scientific. Unless you had all of your hormones replaced and development controlled right out of the womb, trans females WILL 100% have an advantage on average. The way your body develops at various stages cannot be changed enough to even the playing field. And it’s objective that men have an advantage in almost every athletic activity.
MrJollyBear
That being said, this specific issue should stay within the confines of competitive sports and shouldn’t bleed over to any other rights trans deserve.
Poopette
You should definitely check yourself in the "I'm all for" part until you speak to the community. That being said, thanks for your contribution.
MrJollyBear
You’re saying I shouldn’t be supportive?
Poopette
I'm saying you're not being as supportive as you could/think you are
MrJollyBear
Why?
vodray
TheChickenEyes
This
michaeloberg
In elementary school football there was some kid who was like three times the size of the rest of us and just plowed through us like a fucking cocaine Bear. You can't (and shouldn't) try to equalize things, you just end up excluding the already marginalized. Let kids have fun FFS
whatsisname
Right, and this also highlights that the approach needs to be different from school age sports vs elites/pro. At the elite level, it's exclusively the kid from your elementary school and others like him.
PragmaticPrimate
As a straight white man I literally don't give a shit about sports. So I don't really care about the issue. Except that I think that no one should be checking the genitalia of amateur athletes before a competition, especially not children.
Orcus424
They aren't checking genitalia. That was rage bait. They would just check if the person was male or female on their medical records. Athletes are required to have a physical done before they participate in the sport.
epicfail88
As a cis female, I’m not threatened by trans women who want to compete in any sport I might want to participate in. We’re not screening every child for what level or hormones they have, or if they are genetically XX or XY, who cares? And what should people with Turner’s or Klinefelter’s syndrome do? I see a bigger issue with kids who can afford 6 training camps for a sport per summer compared to those who can’t even get to school but no one is crying about removing money from the equation.
Dirk2131
I understand. Thank you for your support. Good news: At the elite and collegiate level, where biological advantages actually come into play, the International Olympic Committee already recommends a science-backed one-year HRT policy for Trans Women, with social transition support (sports have agency to determine policy). NCAA has this policy. Sad news: When you see the people misgendering Trans people you will realize this 'debate' is about something other than fairness in sports.
jaxomdad
I had it explained to me once and it really settled the argument for me. Trans women have competed for longer than you think and statistically have shown no appreciable advantage over natural women. As such, it is best to err on the side of personal freedoms and allow them to compete until such a time that the data says something is actually wrong. Restricting personal freedoms should always be a last resort, not a precautionary measure.
TeamSpicyTacos
Please listen to https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/2ohxk2a which deals with misinformation and trans athletes and treatment. Short take is so far, trans athletes have not dominated sports.
SoniqueTui
As a woman, I really don't care. In my mind they are women too. I see them as competing on my team vs competing against it and I would rather celebrate that.
Pandard66
I'm gay and have A LOT of trans friends. I too was resistant until I came to understand that trans women are women. We owe it to the individual to treat them as their genders dictates. Women are women no matter what. Also, Caster Semenya is a woman who happens to have more testosterone than other women b/c biology. Should she be banned? if not, then trans women shouldn't either.
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
https://youtu.be/Y410v7OmAm4 YouTuber Jesse gender goes over this in depth with a lot of nuance. in short: the traits that in theory give trans women advantages over cis women are within the natural variation of traits expressed by cis women, and are not applicable to every sport. dividing by gender instead of things like weight class or skill level is also arbitrary, and the original reasons for gender segregation were more to enforce patriarchy than anything else
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
gender segregation largely started when men lost to women in a few sports, and this was deemed too embarrassing and dangerous to patriarchal norms. there are a variety of better ways to divide sports to keep them more fair, but that's not the concern. other natural physical advantages exist in cis women and they are celebrated.
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
in addition, if trans women had a natural advantage we'd see every sport in which they compete be dominated by trans women. the best trans women would always dominate the best cis women, but thats not what happens. the strongest trans woman lost to cis women in multiple weightlifting competitions, for example. the trans women who win a race or two end up losing to cis women in other races. the statistics don't bare out the claims transphobes make.
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
this was never about fairness, though. they try to raise these "reasonable" claims to exclude us from any part of public life they can because transphobes don't want us to exist in public or at all. i HATE competitive sports, if I'm being honest. i think they make people into the shittiest versions of themselves. i think the hero worship of athletes is annoying. mostly, i resented that i was expected to like them as a guy and now they're being used to attack me as a trans woman.
TheNewYorkWolf
People like Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps are incredible champions at their sports not only because of training but their genetics predispose them to being able to train and compete at the level they do. They dominated while in their prime but because they are cis no one ever said “their chances of winning are too high and it’s unfair for other competitors”. It’s not a perfect 1:1, but it is something to consider. By and large this is a false debate rooted in othering/excluding athletes.
Monocular0
This is what I always bring up around this debate. All top-level athletes have some kind of biological advantage, but it’s only a problem when it’s a trans person? Michael Jordan didn’t become Michael Jordan just by practicing a lot, but nobody was saying “he shouldn’t be allowed to compete.” Hell, even Freddy Mercury had a biological advantage over other singers.
Atomic2
What was MJ's advantage?
TheNewYorkWolf
My argument here kind of presupposes that transgender women *always* dominate in their chosen sports which is probably a false premise.
GoliathSkittles
Well look at it this way, for the Olympic games, trans athletes have been allowed to compete since 2003, it wasn't until 2020 that any actually qualified for the games (there were 4, including 2 non-binary). You'd think if trans people had some inherit cheat power that made them straight up better....there would probably be more and they would have made a bigger news splash?
TheNewYorkWolf
This is what they’re really trying to obscure with the ‘debate’. The percentage of people who are trans is pretty low, and the percentage of semi-pro/pro athletes in that subset is even lower probably. We’re talking about discriminating against a very small number of people just to gin up more bigotry to try to win votes.
whatsisname
Many people raise that point. Similarly, one HS male that can afford to go to sports camp all summer and has a personal coach etc, up against another male that has none of that, that matchup can very well exceed the difference between a male vs female, but it's the status quo and just how things are. It's going to be some trial and error figuring things out.
funone77
It's literally a distraction topic that effects less than .001% of people. They want people enraged that their daughter might face an unfair adversary or not get that scholarship because someone else had an unfair advantage. We should ask 'Why is this topic important to you?' 'Who is bringing the topic up?'
CantStopTheRock
Also, why should people be denied college because one person did better than them?
funone77
Heeeey, look at this guy getting the point. Why indeed? Why do we have to compete for an education or rather an education that doesn't involve crippling debt? We're literally the only 1st world country with the concepts of student debt and medical debt. This is really just another culture war so we forget we should be fighting a class war.
LetsTalkGameDesign
I'm like you (cis white male). The way I see it, if it had a tangible provable scientific reproducible effect, every single sport would have a trans woman at number one by now. Records broken and all that. Top 10 even would all be trans. Because it'd be all the time, every sport, every advantage. But they don't, so I don't think it does.
HeresYourSauce
I consider myself non-binary and I don't have much of a stance, but it's a false debate. It's a very rare thing for most people, and can easily be handled by each sports league themselves. Pushing it to the national level just makes things to argue over.
CoachMcgurl
My solution was just having people sign waivers before participation. "I (insert name) acknowledge that I will be competing against Trans and Cis athletes and revoke my right to bitch about it."
supergrunt84
Thank you! This is just a distraction. They want to draw attention away from other issues, generate fear to get their base worked up and they don’t mind hurting a small minority in the process. This has been the playbook for fourth years, much to the detriment of the whole country and minorities especially.
twuck
The simple fact is that what trans women who are allowed to compete haven't been dominating their chosen sports. No person would go through the hardships transition poses to get a little better at their sport.
KrampusCopia
Which is why the GQP will push this forever. They are losing ground fast on the abortion debate so they need a new boogeyman
comacomacomacomachameleon
they should make the national debt the boogeyman like Perot. Best third-party candidate run in history. But that requires actual policies.
Iputthebestinbestiality
Since it varies a lot by the sport it should definitely be by each league/organisation. For weight lifters it's a whole different thing than sports that are heavily reliant on technique
HeresYourSauce
Yeah, and there are a lot of sports and levels of sport that are much more casual. Where the goal is truly to have fun.
Iputthebestinbestiality
Definitely!
CorrugatedUrethra1995
The argument is well and truly a bullshit excuse to attack trans people. The only real way forward is to just wait and see how the data comes out with current hormone level requirements. If trans women show consistently better outcomes, then changes should be made.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
Yes, I say, *if* it becomes some big issue, deal with it then. Seems unlikely it ever will though.
TexasRed19
Reporting in from the UK - the argument is made globally.
StellaMatutina
Right? It's what percentage of what percentage of a population and it's the number 1 or 2 topic of heated debate? Ain't that many people interested in darts to begin with
midnightrambling
Trans female swimmer: Lia Thomas, Trans female boxer: Fallon Fox, Trans female weightlifter: Lauren Hubbard.
CAAFlo
OP: this is a rare edge case. You: here are 3 people out of 8 billion.
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CAAFlo
Fallon fox is 5-1 and lost the world champion for her weight class. Good performance yes, but it's hard to call someone who isn't the champ dominating. As for your other point, show me the problem before we address it. Im not going to regulate something because you feel like it could maybe be an issue in this hypothetical.
IamfunatpartiesIknow
The top athletes aren't 8 billion
InternetAnonymityplz
Yeah I came here to say this as well. For something that's so vanishingly rare, it gets an insane amount of attention. We can just solve it on a case by case basis.
NoGunsNoCats
When the debate becomes about whether the winner should have been running against different athletes then we'd all prefer this issue has been addressed beforehand.
override367
One of the states that passed a law on it had like, one trans athlete in the whole fucking state
MarkusAwesomesauce
It is now, but if trans people are allowed to exist, there will be more. What you are saying is kick the can down the road.
Morpheaus
"Allowed to exist?" That's a pretty ghastly way to phrase things.
HeresYourSauce
It's not wrong though. Coming out of the closet can be deadly. Systemically we're killing LGBT+ people.
HeresYourSauce
Maybe? The debate is being made in bad faith. Right now the goal isn't to actually determine an answer, it's to create a "discussion" where trans people are the bad guys. I do however think we can handle it now, just at the level where it's an issue, as it comes up. So not making national/state laws on it, not having every citizen pick a side, but in the sports it's an issue as it comes up have those specific organizations handle it.
MarkusAwesomesauce
I agree 100%. The right just wants to hurt trans people and by their ideology, they are unfit to govern so when someone on the right claims trans women should not compete in women's sports, it's not coming from a good faith place. All I'm saying is that as a legitimate form of discourse, there has to be a solution found that lets trans women compete with cis women on an equal playing field.
Borgham
But then of course this debate will need to happen in each sports league, so it’s reasonable to want to see other peoples thoughts and opinions on the matter
manhands
I disagree with the entirely of your post. "We can only debate things at the national level. Leave it up to the leagues and there's nothing to discuss." First of all, leaving it up to the leagues will result in major discrepancies and be at the whims of the opinions of league officials. Every time we've punted decisions down to a lower level, such as states, it's resulted in some states being entirely unfair and discriminating. Same will happen with leagues. 1/
manhands
The next idea that "this is rare and therefore irrelevant" is also poorly thought-out. As we secure rights for trans, this will become more and more common, and it's important to figure out. Even if it didn't become more common, you're basically saying these trans athletes don't matter. That's exacerbated by the comment that this is "just something to argue over" and not a real issue that needs attention.
manhands
If what you're TRYING to say is that we're not in a place to discuss this at the national level until we secure trans rights, I might agree more. But what you actually said is utter shit.
HeresYourSauce
The biggest thing here is the debate is made in bad faith to be more argumentative than helpful, and respectfully I think your comments are a good example of this, we're on the same side (I think), and (I think) we have very similar views. We should be able to talk civilly, but suddenly my views are "utter shit." That is kind of the response is what I'm worried about, because even if you start with very similar views once people get defensive it's almost impossible to close that gap. 1/2
HeresYourSauce
Your last comment, that we're not in place to discus this at a national level right now is also the one I agree with most. I also really don't want to say "it's rare and therefore irrelevant" It's not irrelevant. It's not irrelevant in the same way the vaccine 'debate' is not irrelevant (Whatever answer we pick will cost lives) but I still don't need the opinion of every random person for it, and I don't think it's helpful to have John Q. Public's views on it, vaccines or trans sports. 2/2
pareidoliaperson
Ok cool. I can settle with this side of the argument. I've seen this argument over and over again but not one case where it happens. Like name one competition where the women lost to a transgender??... I can't. The argument is truly blown up.
electrajet
Mack Beggs - Wrestling https://www.espn.com/espnw/voices/story/_/id/27652214/what-does-journey-transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-teach-us
eeps
It's also a false debate because women's sports don't exist because men are better at sports, they exist so that men can't keep women from competing. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/sports/title-ix-anniversary-womens-sports.html Being amab isn't going to make a trans woman a better athlete. That's a very sexist idea, that some initial maleness means more than training and skill.
fredh67
People who don't get their way push it to the national level (for or against).
Trashedpanda
Yes! This is always the biggest thing. While there is this MASSIVE "debate", its truly only a few hundred kids, maybe? Like with "gender affirming care in kids", according to the cdc it is a few thousand children, out of 73 million.
TheShogunMustGoOn
HeresYourSauce
Thank you, but @theredking1 said it better /gallery/suxdc6o/comment/2322715445 they just need to update their imgur.
gorillaClutch
This. I can't remember the state but when bringing up this student sports ban thing they pointed out in the entire state only 2 students were trans and wanted to compete in sports. 2 in the entire state. It's really a non issue outside of it being used to fear monger.
kaarbaakimgr
Unless you’re a competitor in one of those sports in one of those states. States are trying to handle it, but getting the same pushback that the National level is getting. The federal government is trying to handle anything that crosses state lines. That’s their job. Establish interstate rules/laws .
Kairuf
Utah I think?
broloftheviking
I don't disagree, but we also need to recognize why women's leagues even exist. Women's sports leagues exist to give a fair competition to female athletes. If there wasn't an advantage to developing as a male, there would not be separate leagues. Regardless of how rare it is, the possibility should be addressed. It should probably be up to the league governing board how to handle these things rather than government. Yes it's rare, and yes, conservatives are using the idea to smokescreen for (1/2
broloftheviking
hateful and discriminatory policies, but that doesn't change that there is still something there that should be addressed. There needs to be a lot of nuanced scrutiny before they arrive at any resolution, and that is what political agendas get in the way of. (2/2)
gorillaClutch
I would agree with this sentiment with the exception that I have no real idea what the science says, some professional leagues require 2 yrs plus on HRT because after that long supposedly the advantage is removed. there's also natural born biological women with as much testosterone as some male competitors which is why we're seeing these "transgender bans" hitting black women who are exceptional at their sports due to just high levels of testosterone./
gorillaClutch
/hell micheal phelps had a genetic mutation that increased the size of his hands and the webbing between them. so yeah there's definitely a discussion to be had about what constitutes a "biological advantage"
Callipygius
I guess, but if there are let's say 1000s of female athletes in that sport in that state and you're allowing someone who is biologically male to compete against them, and like scholarships depend on their performance, it's really an issue for thousands of people. How would you feel if your daughter was the top female wrestler and a transgender male to female student beat her? I'm very much a trans ally, I have 2 trans friends, but this isn't so simple or isolated
gorillaClutch
1 person taking 1 scholarship does not affect 10000s of people even if it DID work like that, but it doesn't. All athletes, kids or otherwise, have different biology. We've seen the real effects of trying to regulate that and it mostly impacts cis women, mostly cis black women honestly but we'll ignore the racism for now. Bottom line if my daughter has to wrestle any athlete bigger/stronger/better and loses. Trans or otherwise. I'd be proud of her for doing her best and showing good sportsmanshi
gorillaClutch
There was a kid on the other team when I played soccer that was like twice the size of the other kids. There will always be those who are genetically more gifted than others. How do you practically legislate that?
Morpheaus
But it is in fact pretty isolated. The population of people who are actively attempting to participate is incredibly small and it is very rare for any of them to be competing for a scholarship. Maybe we should stop giving scholarships for non-academic purposes though. Why should anyone of any gender be given financial access to academics simply because they can throw a ball, dribble, or run faster than a certain percentage of the population? It's arbitrary and based on entertainment.
Callipygius
Regarding athletics scholarships, I agree, I don't think that should exist, but that's a separate debate. I just brought it up as one example of why people care about fair competition in high school or college athletics. And again, yes the population of people attempting to participate is small, but whether they participate impacts everyone else who they compete against (or in place of).
Morpheaus
"Fair" is a really strange term. I'm not attacking you for the word choice, but I'd like to draw attention to the fact that fair is a vague term to use in sports. In team sports especially. Some kids will have access to equipment or training that others won't have access to, or will simply be more talented. We accept that, but fairness suddenly becomes much more important with regard to trans athletes.
demianstine
Although it is a bad faith argument, rather than showing that there is a problem with trans people, it demonstrates a problem with how we look at sports as being gender differentiated instead of some sort of weight class differentiation.
MrJollyBear
Women are allowed to play in the NBA and the NFL (and I’m sure many other professional leagues.) There is nothing discriminating them from playing in those leagues…
MrJollyBear
Women’s divisions were made because women cannot compete with the men, so they get their own division to compete in… because the alternative is not competing at all.
Fuckididntwantausername
And that sports are historically designed to be shows of men's strengths. Ancient Greek wrestling, Highland Games, etc. Giant heavy fuckers that can throw giant heavy shit are going to win the "how far you can throw a giant heavy thing" contest. It's about what we admire, praise, and give prestige to as a society. We don't value the physical strength and brutality of women the way we do in men.
MechanicalRomance
Historically sports are designed to be shows of strength. Women were allowed to compete (occasionally) in sport up until they had the gall to start winning. Then all of a sudden we needed womens sport.
kaarbaakimgr
Yeah…The women’s football league started beating the men’s football league and it just went downhill from there.
MechanicalRomance
No the womens figure skaters started beating mens figure skaters. Thats where the shit started.
toonormaltobehere
Very true! Women are typically better endurance athletes. It’s easy to see men dominating in an athletic arena, when the sports chosen were created by and for men.
Sinasohn
Would be nice if instead we valued intelligence and kindness instead of brute strength. (like if firstinspires.org > nfl)
Dirk2131
Why not both? Strength is admirable, so long as its applied for good. Strength is not antithetical to intelligence, ans most certainly kindness. Firefighters often embody all three, and their strength in particular deserves great praise. (I am not a firefighter, in case it comes off as self-aggrandizing.)
demianstine
good points!
TheMayorOfTittyCity
That would be pretty unfair for women. You would just have a league of big heavy men and a league of smaller lighter men. Men are just stronger and faster, there is no way to winnow that away. I think women should be able to have a league they can't be forced out of.
Froggie243
And I think the opposite. We already have sports divisions for a reason. Let me compete with others at my skill level, not based on what genitals are in my pants. That's the whole point of divisions
DuffySmalls
Unfortunately that’s the very reason they codified women only leagues as a demographic they couldn’t compete in male dominated divisions, I definitely want a better solution, but that’s just going to push most women out of sports.
RiverHawk
So how do you want to divide by skill? It would mean all top leagues are dominated by men anyway.
MrJollyBear
Sure you can look at it that way if you want to, but women will be pushed out of almost every single high level sport.
Ughffs
Tell that to the female college weight lifter who trained her ass off and got beaten by someone who has called themselves a girl for five minutes.
VashTehStampede
Cite your examples source instead of asking a hypothetical.
PlanckEraWasMyBestEra
That didnt happen. That might have been how it was presented to you but it absolutely did not happen that way.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
You can just not watch the women's league. It's fine you arnt interested in women in sports (I'm not really interested in anyone in sports). But a league based on skill is basically just the men's league. Just watch that.
Ughffs
You sound just like a sexist douche, let me guess only men can be funny too? Fuck off.
Dirk2131
That's not the case. You are operating assuming Women are inferior in sports, which is patronizing at best. Even if, on average, Women work harder to perform at the same level, because of how averages work there would still be top level Women athletes who outperform most men. Compare an average Man to... even just a varsity high school or college athlete, and you'll realize how belittling it is to say top level sports would inevitably be male dominated under a performance-class model.
IusallypoopwhileImonhere
This fight means that trans men are forced to compete in women’s sports where they actually do have a advantage. You have young men with male bodies wrestling with girls because he was assigned female at birth. This isn’t about fairness. It’s about hurting trans individuals further. They have studied trans athletes and found no benefits to being trans. https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked
LitchLitch
newer studies are showing a slight advantage for people who transitioned after puberty in a few areas, as always the distinction between trans and cis athletes is smaller than the difference between cis athletes over all
IusallypoopwhileImonhere
Can I see a link. Seems weird with women taking estrogen that they would see an advantage
LitchLitch
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577
IusallypoopwhileImonhere
If you read this I’d like to further add the young boy in questions forced to wrestle with girls was then posted all over by republicans as proof of what they are saying about trans athletes. Ignoring that they caused this.
Purebinjuice
This is an interesting point. If they say you have to compete in your birth sex category, then trans men I presume would still be ruled out as they are taking testosterone? Which I think is not allowed currently. But if they are banned from taking it, then that affects their ability to access care. So what are they supposed to do?
IusallypoopwhileImonhere
Accept the fact they have a minimal but not sufficiently high advantage. I read it’s still minimal and is similar to the advantages some kids naturally have in sports. Honestly it’s not worth attacking what’s actually a very small amount of athletes.
BadPunsAplenty
As with many things, it's not cut-and-dried. There are multiple factors: 1) What are the numbers of transgender athletes? (not known) 2) At what age are they competing, because this affects 3) Puberty blockers in effect? 4) Cross-hormones in use? Here are some articles that are not wildly fringe: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transgender-athlete-bans-facts/ https://www.northcarolinahealthnews.org/2021/04/0">-facts/">https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transgender-athlete-bans-facts/ https://www.northcarolinahealthnews.org/2021/04/09/amid-lgbtq-rights-debate-few-trans-kids-play-in-high-school-sports-in-nc/
CrossEyedPigeonToed
Good points, thank you
ButtBot9900
Transphobes don't like having to acknowledge nuance.
BethanyAnne
So, the NCAA has about 500,000 student athletes every year across 1100 colleges. They have allowed trans athletes to compete for 12 years. That's roughly 6 million athletes, and hundreds of thousands of competitions. And there have been how many instances of cis women losing to a trans woman? Like 3? Everyone talks about that one swimmer, but how many others can you even think of? Truly, this is a manufactured controversy over a theoretical problem.
notacobra
There's a potential issue, but is there a real issue? It's true that individuals who have recently transitioned have characteristics of the gender from which they transitioned. But the number of people using that for sports advantage is essentially zero. At the Olympic level... I'd say leave it up to those who are participating, not people who have no foot in the game
Frederf
The sports regulation bodies are already on this as a problem to be solved to achieve fairness in the sport. Politicians are only on this as a way to unhumanize trans people and leverage FUD/resentment.
Aprilmadness
Well said!
Splosions
You are assuming good sportsmanship. Someone could get a competitor disqualified out of spite, not because of any actual competitive advantage. When an olympic gold is on the line you don't this someone will fight dirty? Knees have been broken for less.
LetumComplexo
Such cases should be fairly obvious and actual examples are *extremely* rare, and thus should handled on a case by case basis. Outright banning trans athletes on that basis would be punishing all trans athletes, a group we know exists in very small numbers, on the largely hypothetical existence of an even smaller and rarer group.
HolyZymurgist
in this scenario, this person would have to lie, for several years, to a psychiatrist and/or a psychologist. Then they would have to lie to a several other medical doctors. Then they would have to undergo hrt. finally they would have to have t levels within the IOCs accepted levels, and be at those levels for like 2 years. All for a chance at a gold medal.
leroy666
This just a GQP smoke screen in my opinion. A non issue in their culture war.
keoghberry
100%
iwanttobebobdylan
It's a vulnerable population that many people are completely unfamiliar with so they've become an easy target for the GQP to foment hate against. It's always someone. "Build the Wall" flopped in scandal and trans folks are just their new target.
Bertejenner
I'm Trans (MTF). I played very high-level tennis in my early 20s. I've been medically transitioning for about 27months, and I've lost about 40lb of muscle in that time period. I still probably retain some advantage, but unless you're competing at the elite level, or in an overly physical sport no one should give a crap. I (for the most part) blend these days and don't see why I should have to out myself every time I want to play sports for fun. It's fearmongering.
CaptSchmidtGaming
for fun. is the key note in your reply. Isn't the driving force of all the controversy that its for career athletes. when money is involved.
imgurdotcommie
You need to understand just how few people actually make a living playing sports. Even at the top levels of a lot of stuff, people really hardly make shit. It's small enough it really negates a lot of that argument to exclude people. Like it just doesn't matter. Most people overestimate just how many people are actually "pro" athletes. The vast majority of Olympians still have to have a day job. Maybe you get a couple years of a contract. AND trans people make a tiny percentage of the pop.
Bertejenner
And it's not just "career athletes". They (Sharron Davies etc.) were kicking off about a 54 year old in the London Marathon who entered as female. Despite finishing in 4hrs and 11mins, and raising loads for charity, they were moaning that a women would have to finish 2301st instead of 2300th. I hope you believe me when I say this as I've experienced this at Padel, at Golf, at Tennis...
Bertejenner
There's like 5 of them. And most of them have already been banned...
GharComs
And trans people have been able to compete in the Olympics for almost two decades. Have they been dominating in the meantime? The answer is no, if you're not aware.
CantStopTheRock
Something everyone should think about before you argue that Trans people shouldn't compete in sports. Do we segregate by race in sports? Statistically, black men are taller than most other men, yet they compete in the same league in basketball, racing, etc. So why segregate trans athletes? Aren't sports meant to be the ultimate expression of meritocracy? The best rise to the top despite their inherent qualities?
CantStopTheRock
And before you all start about how it is unfair for a biological male to compete in women's sports, how many trans women are there in sports? 10%? 5%? If there was an inherent advantage to being a trans woman, wouldn't it be the case where we see several of these individuals at the top of their leagues?
ButtBot9900
The "it's not fair and that's basic biology" is literally the exact same argument people used to try and keep black people out of sports.
CantStopTheRock
Ultimately, this is a non issue. There aren't more than a dozen professional trans athletes in total. No one is being displaced from their field and no one is being denied opportunities because some athletes decided they weren't born in the right body. This entire 'debate' is a poorly made smokescreen to make people think that trans people are an 'other'
HailToUltron
When is the time to act? When there are two dozen? Fifty? Are we waiting until a mtf trans athlete dominates every women's sport? Biological men are breaking world records in some women's sports. When is the time to address this?
CantStopTheRock
1. Trans athletes will not become a majority, ever. 2. Who cares? Like legitimately, so what if there are a few trans-women who hold a few records? Does this really hurt society? What is the actual harm in this? Trans athletes are already VERY heavily scrutinized. These 'arguments' have already been settled by the actual professionals.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
They are. And they are breaking records set by cis women. Tiffany Newell and Lia Thomas for example.
dasklaus
There are thousands of records in all sorts of sports. Can you list even 10 examples? Because I don't follow sports but there's basically just one name that pops up in this discussion and you now introduced a second. That sounds like a non-issue.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
Well there were two I already listed. Another is Anne Andres who holds multiple power lifting records. This list cites basically all trans college athletes. Lots of records broken and championships won if you look at the trans women https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/7/22850789/trans-athletes-college-ncaa-lia-thomas
dasklaus
You made me read that entire list to find just two records? I rest my case. Non-issue.
CantStopTheRock
Tiffany's record is ratified by the Canadian Masters Athletics, whose policy clearly states that, for a period of 12 months, they have to prove that their T levels were under at set amount. So I highly doubt there was any 'unfair advantage'. As well, she's 50, so the vast majority of the advantage T would give has long since diminished under normal circumstances.
tvts
Sports aren't segregated by race, but they _are_ segregated by sex, which is what's being discussed here. Would you also say sports shouldn't be segregated based on sex? The statement made by the Olympic committee mentions "disproportionate advantage" which, depending on the sport, men can certainly have. There's a reason testosterone is considered a PED.
LitchLitch
the reason sports are segregate by sex is because men couldn't stand to be beaten by women (look it up, it is only when women begin to be competitive that there is a push to segregate them)
CantStopTheRock
And trans women who have been taking HRT have lower levels of Testosterone than other women athletes. There are also athletes that take testosterone for medical reasons, should they be disallowed? If the Olympics has no problem with trans women, why do you?
tvts
I never said I did :)
tvts
But yes, I do think that if an athlete is taking test. for medical reasons _and it gives them a disproportionate advantage_ then they shouldn't be allowed to compete.
HailToUltron
The most common injury in women's soccer is an ACL tear. It's common for them because of their hip to waist ratios. MTF trans athletes don't have that same concern because through puberty and beyond they have very different hip to waist ratios.
CantStopTheRock
So? They're less likely to be injured, and that makes them somehow better at sports? Also, not all women have those ratios. Should they be excluded from competing?
Leithoa
@op i'll help you out. 99% of the people loudly talking about trans people in womens sports don't actually care. They don't care about women, They don't watch womens sports, they don't play womens sports. They just want trans people out of society. They aren't picky about how.
Leithoa
Ps fuck off with the "keep it civil". People are regularly & openly calling for outright murder of trans folk. We are long past 'civil'.
ThatuldoPig
Not sure this is the case. People don't care about a lot of things until it gets brought up in the public eye. I don't practice Ramadan but if the gov decided people couldn't take part in it, I would have something to say about that as well.
Leithoa
It is the case. The GQP want trans people out of society. There are regular, open, calls for murder. It's not. About. The sports.
ThatuldoPig
For some people its not about sports. For some people it is. I have a few trans friends. I love them. But in the case of sports we disagree. Does it eat up my day thinking about it, no. But to a biological women that has spent her life training in a field it might.
Leithoa
It's not about sports. You're helping a genocide.
ThatuldoPig
In this case it is simply about sports and biology. Taking the leap to "you're helping genocide" is being obtuse and purposefully dismissing the nuance of the discussion. Which frankly is probably hurting the trans cause in the long run. Also the people of Rwanda, Assyrian's, the Jewish people, and many more may find it pretty offensive you're comparing what the trans community is dealing with to what they went through. They're facing discrimination true, and its horrible, but not a genocide.
ThatuldoPig
trans people face a lot of things, and open calls for murder are generally the fringes, but until they start rounding trans people up and murdering them in mass you cannot call it a genocide. Its discrimination & bigotry. For some people, trans people in sports isn't about sports its about hate as I said. But for the majority of people who disagree with trans women in sports it is simply about fairness. Saying everyone who disagrees with you is genocidal is just a way to not have to think furthr
AllTheGoodOnesAreTaken68
I'm a guy, and a former competitive swimmer and ocean lifeguard. I swam tens of thousands of yards every week for years. At my peak, even if I doubled my training, there is zero chance putting on a 1-piece swimsuit would see me be better than Katie Ledecky. The argument against trans competitors in sports is an attempt to carve out any possible niche whereby trans supporters might waver. That wavering will be clung to as an argument against the existence of trans people. Don't fall for it.
SonderingStrike
Mmhm, this is exactly their reasoning. When we dismiss their claims of degeneracy offhand (Since they never provide evidence) , they instead move on to the non-issue of Trans Athletes. If there IS an issue, then allow it to be handled at a local level... either way, not an issue for me or thee, hypothetical Transphobe.
thoushaltnotpass
Also testing women athletes against arbitrary standards of "womanhood" usually impact the cisgender woman more, e.g. unknowingly XXX or XY women and/or women with high T (usually black women)
keoghberry
I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the Olympics DID try hormone/ XX testing at one point (I think 60s maybe?) And had yo drop it because of the huge varieties found and would have had to exclude many cis women
khtad
Yep, I hate this debate because it's an actual zero-sum situation and then that gets Motte and Bailey'd into broader arguments about things like hospital visitation and which toilet you get to use as if they were the same question. Drawing the line is hard, but once there *is* a line, anyone that meets it should be free to compete IMO.
ScubaSteve6
Like you, I swam in HS and life guarded and have still been playing water polo since. While I fully support the movement, I admit I have been unsure how to view certain instances of trans women competing, such as Lia Thomas who swam men’s at Penn for a few years, then swam on the women’s team for her final year. Was that instance a bit unfair? I’m not trying to be offensive as I admit my ignorance in all details of that particular story, and am open to views and info to help my understanding.
AllTheGoodOnesAreTaken68
The argument seems to be that people switch in order to "dominate" in a sport, assuming that men are inherently that much better than women. Transitioning involves so much more than saying "I'm a woman now." The physical, medical, psychological, and social implications that come with such a change are massive, and taking the step to transition isn't taken lightly. I'd not want to tell someone they can't be themselves solely because they happen to compete in sports. Maybe give an asterisk (1/2)
AllTheGoodOnesAreTaken68
if they set records within x years of the start of transition while treatments take effect, but let a person by who they are. I can't see telling a person who's swam their entire life that they can no longer do that because they're now more comfortable with their identity. It's definitely a challenging topic, but I think it's often maliciously argued to discount the magnitude of such a change on a person and the community as a whole. (2/2)
AnotherSemanticArgument
As it stands, I think that Lia Thomas is about the only example that can be found of a trans athlete finding success at a highish level in their given sport. Her win in 2022 was famously 1ish seconds faster than an Olympic silver medalist. It was also about 9 seconds slower than the record set by Ledecky. So, in the one case conservatives can find, it's still pretty significantly slower than record pace set by a woman. That said, in her sport, she can no longer compete due to a recent ruling.
LightStriker
It's not that simple. Imagine Phelps becoming a woman. Suddenly, there's no longer any world record ever accessible to any cis-woman.
TacoPoweredHelicopter
Well Phelps has made swimming records unattainable for me should he be banned from men's swimming to?
LightStriker
Are you saying no men ever would reach his records? Because I can tell you no women ever can. Men can. He get beaten in lot of events.
TacoPoweredHelicopter
I guarantee that a women will beat his records eventually. Maybe not in our lifetime but a women will come along and beat them.
LightStriker
100m freestyle, men: 46.86s, women: 51.71s. You have no idea how vast that gap is, when people are fighting for fractions of seconds.
leroy666
This!
Sinasohn
Not to get off-topic but as a guy who swam competitively myself and taught swimming and so on, I've *never* worn anything other than a 1-piece swimsuit. (Also, I seem to recall that even male swimmers are wearing full-body (more or less) suits because it gives them an advantage.)
AllTheGoodOnesAreTaken68
Yeah when I was typing it I wasn't sure how to phrase that part but figured it would get the point across well enough. Technically the speedo was just a far smaller one-piece swimsuit :)
amiurume
This is extremely well said.
OverpricedCrayon
Despite all your years of xp, I don’t think it’s a fair comparison. What about Ledecky vs Phelps, that sounds more 1:1?
delecti
Phelps is actually a great example. He's a complete genetic freak, nearly half-fish, but nobody is arguing he should be excluded from men's sports for having an unfair advantage.
DuxNautarum
That's also Phelps's natural body. Nobody is claiming athletes should be banned from anything based on their natural bodies; the debate is whether a naturally male body can sufficiently transition to an equivalent female body to be fair in physical competitions.
delecti
Except that's not true. People *are* using anti-trans sport policies on cis women, see Caster Semenya.
DuxNautarum
That would be more accurately described as intersex, not trans.
khtad
And no one thinks that Katie Ledecky should be barred from women's sport, but no one thinks that she should have to compete in the men's division either. We have a women's division for a reason, which is to confer a level playing field from an endocrine and body shape standpoint. Where you draw the line (I'm assuming you're not arguing for abolition of women's sport) is a hard question for me, but once anyone meets the criteria, they should be allowed to compete, no more questions asked.
Youhavinagiraffe
Trans women aren't men and all of this stuff is based on the false idea that a statistical advantage for men over women can be used to infer a stastical advantage for trans women over cis women which doesn't hold up
khtad
I don't agree that advantages gained from puberty growth are negligible, but that could be handled on a case by case basis. I can see a reason to prevent a 6'9" transwoman from competing in NCAAW basketball, but no reason to prevent a 5'10" transwoman from doing the same, as long as they meet the NCAA criteria for hormone blockers.
OverpricedCrayon
Doesn’t that largely depend on when they start treatment? Like Whether it’s before or after puberty
MrRogersNeighborhood
I'm queer and I can see the argument. I think we should get rid of the genders in sports and go by classes, like boxing. Maybe by height for running and swimming, and weight for .... Well you get the idea.
usermainboredom101
i totaly agree with you, thank you for pointing the real argument, it could be like art - baseball, football and stuff with mixed people. I would def look such an even!
Breyers101
This would be hugely, preposterously unfair toward female athletes. As much as that solution might simplify certain gender issues, the spirit of competition would be completely gone. And I don't think we want to initiate a change that sees no female athlete place in the tops 100s in many sports/events. Look up Serena and Venus Williams (two of the best female tennis players to ever pick up a racket) vs. Karsten Braasch (#203 man) for an idea of what many sports would look like.
Beezlebubble
As others said this could pretty much eliminate women for sports...it'd be male dominated AGAIN.
MrRogersNeighborhood
@OP by asking you're being a wonderful ally. 💜
CrossEyedPigeonToed
Thank you, I'm trying!
zenxan
I see what you're going for - I think the problem is muscle density - cis mens' is generally higher, so regardless of weight class cis women would face a disadvantage. You could maybe do it based on muscle ratio - I have a feeling that might create some interesting results, possibly forming a natural spectrum from the more biologically feminine to masculine body types.
Orcus424
There's not enough people to have that many different classes. What does being queer matter regarding your comment?
Callipygius
It should just be divided as "open" or "female only". Anyone who is and always has been unambiguously a female can compete in the female only division. Everyone else, including cis men and trans individuals, can compete in the open division.
heyletsbefriends
that would largely push women and trans women out of high level sports. the women's leagues exist to make sure women have a place to compete
jimplaysgames10
Short people are pushed out of high level basketball
FatBastardVegetarian
LeBron is only 6'9". He's done okay.
FatBastardVegetarian
The Williams sisters have said they would not have a chance over any of the top 100 men tennis players.
FatBastardVegetarian
And they're the greatest players in the history of the game.
Coopernatural
Being trans does not confer automatic advantages, a trans woman on estrogen is, largely, the same as a cis woman on estrogen. If in doubt, it probably safe to go with the Olympic committees stance: https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Beyond-the-Games/Human-Rights/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf
B3N15
There's also a bit of common sense here. No one is lying through months and years of therapy, hormone treatment, stress, and discrimination to maybe win in sports.
Rogahar
Also the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sports commissioned a study into it and confirmed the same thing; https://www.cces.ca/transgender-women-athletes-and-elite-sport-scientific-review TLDR Trans women who've been on HRT have no clear advantage over cisgender women and it's far, far more likely to be largely - if not entirely - down to their own individual skill as athletes.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
That was a very odd paper. It read more as a policy paper than a scientific one. Really, what it says is they didn't find evidence of an advantage, not they they did find evidence of no advantage, which is very different. It's basically saying "we don't know." It also doesnt appear to be a real published peer reviewed journal article. Here is a larger actual peer review published systematic review detailing the difference https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
sinestroxlodx
I love this stance and greatly appreciate you sharing. @op thank you for asking this question. I too struggle with this concept.
Youhavinagiraffe
And despite having this stance for multiple Olympic games now we haven't seen trans women overshadow cis women... like, not even a tiny little bit
Kemi337
I would love to hear how they think there's some sort of advantage in... CHESS.
https://www.npr.org/2023/08/18/1194593562/chess-transgender-fide-pushback
Coopernatural
TLDR: they do not ban transgender athletes from competing in the sports category that aligns with their gender, unless they have strong evidence that that specific individual has demonstrated excessive risk to fairness or safety. If it’s good enough for the Olympics, it’s good enough for me, and imo should be good enough for everyone else.
vowofloudness
The 1904 olympics featured human zoos full of "savages". That was the second Olympics to allow women to compete at all. The 1936 olympics was a literal Nazi propaganda event. In 1968 Smith and Carlos were banned by the IOC for a black power salute. The IOC is constantly accused of bribery and corruption, turning a blind eye to doping and discrimination. I think they're on the ride side of this specific issue, but "good enough for the Olympics" is, historically, a disgustingly low bar.
Coopernatural
If it was really such an advantage, we’d see competitions dominated by trans athletes. We don’t. The one trans athlete everyone talks about winning a women’s sport lost two matches in the same competition, and there was a trans man who beat his cis competition. There is a lot of variety in human performance, especially at the elite level, and we have no evidence at this point of a problem with trans athletes competing like everyone else. Just let them live their lives!
heyletsbefriends
its dishonest to say 'we dont see transwomen dominate...' because there arent enough transwomen competing there yet. theres not enough data.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
I mean, the IOC is a political body, not a scientific body. They exist to ensure the success and profitability of the Olympics. The largest scientific review I have seen can only find data up to 3 years out and finds yes, Trans women are bigger and stronger.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
TheMayorOfTittyCity
Multiple people literally downvoted a link to a systematic review on the topic? Downvoted science? This is why @op is nervous to even bring this up.
AnotherSemanticArgument
I think you're probably getting downvoted because you skimmed that link pretty heavily, IMO. First, you claim that it only finds data 3 years out when several tables references studies from 2012 or prior. You do accurately find that this report states that transfemale athletes likely retain a strength advantage over cisgendered female athletes, but several sentences later, in the same paragraph, the link goes on to say that overall impact of hormone therapy on athletic performance is unknown.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
That is the difference between "study date" and "study duration". The "study dates" span 20 years. The longest "Study duration" is 3 years. So yes, there is only data that spans a duration of 3 years.
AnotherSemanticArgument
Further, it finds that there exists no verifiable performance advantage in endurance sports such as running, due to the more rapid and in line with cisgendered female transition that hemoglobin and the blood in general undergo. This systematic review is essentially drawing the conclusion that more work must be done, particularly on a sport by sport basis, in order to determine if performance advantages do, in fact, exist.
blissblush
YES! Science is still working to understand it to a greater degree, but the effects of feminizing hormones may be even greater on transwomen vs cis-women due of the near-total suppression of testosterone via drugs like spironolactone & finasteride + dosages of estrogen & progesterone at dosages that often mirror the levels experienced during pregnancy. It's not hard to find HRT before/after pics that show a muscly "gym bro" before starting HRT and a soft, curvaceous woman after starting HRT.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
Yeah but that woman, on average, is still bigger and stronger than a cisnwoman, on average. It's a tough middle group to be in. It would be unfair to the one Trans women to be in a men's league, but to all the cis woman to be in a woman's league.
blissblush
Blanket statements like that are based on a lot of conjecture & don't capture the full picture. There's so much physiological variation even within one — lots of "petite" AMAB have wide hips & a shorter stature just as many AFAB have a taller, more muscular body. Many cis-female athletes even have a supposed advantage over cis-males. WNBA players are 6' tall or more & AFAB swimmers frequently have shoulders & arm spans that rival those of cis-males.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
No, they are based on the best evidence and the largest systematic review to date evaluating cis vs trans women in sports https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
TheMayorOfTittyCity
This is the issue. I post literally the best evidence on the subject, at this point the key scientific article detailing objective measures of cis vs trans women strength, and its down voted. There are a lot of people that dont want an objective scientific/medical discussion.
blissblush
Taller? For MTF that transition after puberty, sure. Stronger? Not exactly. The high amounts of feminizing hormones used during HRT shrink & reshape muscles in a more typically feminine manner. As the body feminizes, strength goes with it. Changes to the body can be pretty dramatic, too. Losing height, narrowing shoulders & shrinking feet are not uncommon among transwomen.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
I'm not arguing HRT doesn't reduce muscle mass, it just doesn't, at a population level, reduce muscle mass to the extent as to be comparable to a cis women. That's what the best studies we have tell us.
blissblush
Also, many MTF who begin their transition during the teen years never develop in a typically male fashion. Because they experience puberty similar to their cis-female peers and grow into the "average" female physiology, they have no supposed advantages over the statistically average female population.
DYLANLEE79
Which is more important , who wins the sportsball game or letting everyone play who can play?
whatsisname
Part of the big problem, in my opinion, is that the answer to that question differs based on the league/level, but people are trying to answer it for all, simultaneously.
Sinasohn
and are trying to do so through legislation.
40185
I agree, but I’m torn like OP. High school, middle school, and rec leagues? Who cares. But when it comes to gold medals and UFC belts it could mean millions of dollars. And does a trans person have an advantage? I don’t know. Like, I actually don’t. So, like OP, I’m just curious.
LetumComplexo
Then the bodies governing those sports are more than capable to addressing those issues if and when they arise on the case by case basis such situations should require.
40185
I agree. I didn’t mean that in any negative way. I promise. I feel stupid for saying it. I fully support trans people and hate the laws being made to harm them. Im just ignorant (uninformed?) on certain aspects. That’s all. I just want people to be happy
LetumComplexo
Hey, don’t worry about it. You’re conscious of not knowing and willing to listen to others opinions who do know. That’s something to be proud of on its own.
40185
Thank you. In a positive way, I really don’t care how someone identifies. Like, in the sense that i dont care as long as they’re happy. The worst part for me about someone transitioning is knowing how unhappy they were before. I work with someone who transitioned at 60. She talked about how quick her depression and mental health issues cleared up when she started transitioning. I’m so happy for her, but when she told me I was also sad she lived 60 years years as someone she wasn’t.
BigRedNerd
People care about high school sports because they can lead to scholarships. I haven’t seen much about trans in sports except one thing: A trans girl that went undefeated in the girls wrestling competition. Can’t remember if it was state or local. It’s been a while since I saw a picture about it, but I don’t think she had transitioned yet.
GoliathSkittles
There was already trans people in the Olympics and the IOC have already set up rules for how they can compete and none of you noticed, so maybe it's not an issue either for y'all either.
40185
I hadn’t heard that. I thought it was still up for debate. Awesome then. Fuckin stoked for all parties involved. I didn’t mean it to be in a negative way. I just want everyone to be happy.
GoliathSkittles
They introduced the rules in 2003 and no trans athlete had qualified for the games until 2020 Tokyo where there was 4 (including 2 non-binary)
40185
Huh. Well shit. I promise im not hateful or biased. I’m apparently just ignorant to some aspects. But I truly am just happy when people do what makes them happy. I fully support trans people, non binary, and the whole lgbtqia+ community. I just don’t know certain aspects, which is now clear, and im happy to learn more. I swear nothing I said was meant to be negative, and I just wanted to learn. So thank you GoliathSkittles.
notsure13
All I’ll say is I used to be fairly strong and I’ve been on hrt for a year now and my son has to open pickle jars for me now. The people rallying against us are doing out of hate and fear. No one transitions to be good at a sport.
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[deleted]
WilmaPGuinn
Perhaps some are just ignorant. I was before you shared. Thank you.
morninggloryshade777
They r also acting out of ignorance. Ask yourselves: who is harmed, or even threatened, by anyone wanting to be their authentic self? To just allow their insides to correctly mesh w their outsides. I wanted to be a guy til 15. Hormones kicking in late finally changed that. But it was still a slow process...& only to a pt.
HellhathnofurylikeIdoLogan
You're right; no one transitions just to be good at a sport, but that does not change the fact that trans women are obliterating female records any way.
Flyspyro
still doesn't mean you don't have an advantage. Who even believes that? Only crazy Republicans spin that. I think questions about female sport is legit
pareidoliaperson
That's really awful, hope you get better soon. I know this side of the argument already and I emphatize, however, but I still don't understand how it's fair the transgender(man to women) can compete in women's sports?
GrizzTheBear
"No one transitions to be good at a sport." My opinion on this is "not yet." People do anything for money, fame, power. Transitioning for this reason I suspect will happen given enough time. Also, for the record and similar to OP, I am a straight male who whole heartedly supports LGBTQ+ and is right now not for sport inclusions
Icantthinkofacleverusernametouse
I always thought that was one of their dumber arguments.
Herefortheboos
You're still born with more androgen receptors, denser bones, and the musculoskeletal structure of a guy which if you're transitioning and wanting to keep muscle, I think we need to admit you've got advantages. If you're not trying to keep the muscle then yeah you might have trouble opening a pickle jar after. I'm with OP. I want to be inclusive, but I'm not sold that it's just so cut and dry. Good luck though and I hope it's making you happy! I freely admit I don't have all the answers.
Callipygius
It should just be divided as "open" or "female only". Anyone who is and always has been unambiguously a female can compete in the female only division. Everyone else, including cis men and trans individuals, can compete in the open division
TheMightyDusk
This "argument" is...weak. Pun intended. *Some* people rally out of hate, fear, ignorance, brainwashing, etc., while others seek to simply have their first-hand experiences heard as actual "participants" in this cringey "competition"/battle of the...um...battle of the...sex...wait, no, genders...err...sexual gender?? Birthrights?
WilliamHuskerAdama
ThioSuxTube
True, it’s a tiny, tiny minority but if transitioning after puberty there are some things that never fully reverse so it’s not quite a level playing field. It’s tricky.
TheMightyDusk
I'm confused? Did you...lose your hands?? Is your daughter not able to help you? Did you sustain injuries over the last year?
HolyZymurgist
t blockers have very significant effects on muscles mass and bone density.
iamthugnasty
While your point is valid it is also one perspective and case. There are many Trans women who have transitioned and are still much larger/masculine/stonger physically than I am as a strait relatively average guy. It's important to not rule out the opposition just because your case and opinions don't line up with their views.
hoozyerdatty
not to dismiss your issues...but don't extrapolate your experience with others'...people are shit, and certainly do transition (not to be good at sports) but to achieve a sports goal they couldn't otherwise
hoozyerdatty
you can be trans and still be a piece of shit...because you're still human
PatrikLilja
If there are monetary gains from doing something, some people will do it. There are monetary gains in sport. the question is whether or not it is possible to transition to get an edge in sports. Im slightly hesitant for transitioned people in sports. Other than that, I'm all for anyone to transition. Heck invent new genders with new sexual organs only capable to work with each other, fuck do what you want with you bodies, get three titles, get a titty between your legs, it's your body. 1/2
PatrikLilja
There is however more differences between men and women than just testosterone, both hormonal and other differences, such as muscle fibre types. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4285578/ I'm not saying I am against transitioned people in sport. Some men and women are willing to try. Lets see how it goes a couple of years down the line. And what will be considered transitioned. 2/3
PatrikLilja
I have a concern. Not that this has happened; but I think we all can agree that if a man announces they are female a week before the olympics and now starts taking hormones, and demands to compete against women, few would want that. Someone who transitioned 10 years prior however is different, and more people would be okay with that. Somewhere between these extreme cases a line is crossed. I wonder where? Would the olympics put up guidelines for when a personed is "enough" transitioned? 3/3
BrdCdn
I don't think anyone reasonable is claiming it's done to be good at a sport. However if someone goes through puberty as a biological male, even with hrt down the road they still maintain significant biological advantages in sport. I don't doubt you notice a difference, however you will never get to the same baseline everything being equal. The science is clear on it. I'm not sure what the fair answer is and there might not really be one.
shitheadtookmyname
I don't think whether you transitioned for sport is material to the issue, and i wish conservatives ALSO would stop using this as a weapon of attack.
timmaybanks
Intersex woman already dominate woman's sports. Because they are taller and stronger. Adding in xy transition is even more unfair. Sorry but I am fine with trans people but they shouldn't be competing in sports.
lurker2112
Yeah absolutely this. Being on estrogen has made me physically weaker and, well, I love it 🥰
wipethatfaceoffyourheadbitch
So is it a matter of time or how your body accepts/metabolizes the hormones? Is this something that can be quantified and standardized? Like “must have been on hrt for a year to qualify for the women’s bracket”.
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godwithashotgun
or maybe give the player years to transition before switching to the female league. there needs to be boundaries on this sort of thing. other than that, I support all of this
sniggly5212
Those transition time limits already exist. Look up trans athletes NCAA requirements.
godwithashotgun
Oh ok good. Then I learned something
sniggly5212
Um... OK now is the part where I awkwardly upvote all the previous comments I already downvoted. I need to assume people aren't just fighting.
mikpat70
"Just up and decided to transition..." Tell me you don't understand the reality of being a trans person without telling me you don't understand the reality of being a trans person.
Dustorn
No one, literally fucking no one, is transitioning just to win some competitions. If you honestly believe that, you've got some issues.
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
Actual cases? People transitioning to cheat and winning gold medals? NEXT UP ON FAUX NEWS: IS BIGFOOT IN YOUR KID'S HALLOWEEN CANDY?
michaelpencil
You're right... But some Eastern German female athletes literally had to change genders after huge amounts of steroids they were forced to take: https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000191752
tzahtman
It isn't that you're weaker it is that the pickle jars are adapting. They've evolving. Soon.
SgtDefaultGN
I, for one, welcome our new pickle jar overlords.
FourScoreAndSevenBeersAgo
I think more people need to hear this perspective, I know I appreciated it. Thanks!
yallmfsneedjesus
The thing is, at the high school level, not all those who are trans are actually taking hrt yet. I think that might be the gray area.
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
At the high-schools level that really doesn't matter. Let kids play sports.
yallmfsneedjesus
I would say at elementary or jr high doesnt matter, but it 100% does in high school. There are major athletic differences in the sexes at that age and college scholarships may be at stake.
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
The problem is that college costs too much and that an ability to run is tied to further education, not trans people. To date no athlete has lost a scholarship to a trans person due to highschool athletes. While testosterone at the HS level makes an 11% difference, trans girls at that age who compete are on testosterone blockers which gives them less T than cisgender female peers.
yallmfsneedjesus
You dont know that. It is impossible to know that. Regardless, it is demoralizing as a girl, to have to compete against another girl who has gone through male puberty and has male musculature and testosterone. Its the same as competing against someone who is doping.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
HRT does reduce muscle mass, but not to the extent to be the equivalent of cis women. You are in an inbetween area. Not as big and strong and a cis man but more so than a cis women. Probably not enough of a trans population for a separate league. I'm not sure where they should play.
1776Pancakes
Actually you might fine this pubmed article interesting. I know I found it very interesting! https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33648944/#:~:text=After%2012%20months%20of%20hormone,due%20to%20paucity%20of%20data.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
That is the study I keep referencing here but it gets downvotes everytime I link it or the conclusions of the authors.
DarkZalgo
Yeah it's usually to an amount *less* than cis women. My cis older sister naturally produces just over twice the max recommended testosterone levels a mtf trans woman does.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865 I am basing it on the best scientific evidence that we have to date. I dont know about your sister or her testosterone levels, but non anecdotally on a population level this is just the evidence we have.
DarkZalgo
I wouldn't call that study the "best scientific evidence" dude. The findings don't even make sense. It says that mtf trans women who took no hormones had a greater reduction in muscle mass than those who did. It also states in there that several of the studies it took from were flawed.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
Can you reference a better collection of evidence? Also I don't see your conclusion in this review. Can you quote the finding so I can find it? And of course several studies were flawed. It's a systematic review. It is a review and evaluation of all of the studies that exist. Evaluating the quality of the studies is the first step in any systematic review.
afmgreentea
Bender did it in Futurama, so it's got to be a real thing!
Metlahaed
Do it for Robonia!
afmgreentea
All hail Robonia, a land I just made up!
narniasreal
What's hrt?
aintnothinbutahounddog28
Hormone replacement therapy. Basically taking the hormones of the gender you are transitioning to. It will reshape your body
notsure13
Hormone replacement therapy.
anirri
Good to know, though I think it's more that all you need to do is claim to be transgender to compete without any actual her or anything. So a normal male can claim to be trans just so he can go and win. That's what I think most are mad about, not actual trans competing. Though I could be wrong, as I have seen reports on both ends.
iwanttobebobdylan
This literally never happens and if it does, it happens extremely rarely. Nobody is claiming to be trans "just to win at sports". People are trans because that is who they are. Following their truth and transitioning can be scary and potentially life threatening bc of how much hate and vilification they experience.
CGWN
Most sports require you to undergo hormone treatment for a year to three years, and IOC requires your serum testosterone to be below a certain level for an extended period of time.
anirri
Ah, good to know. I know there was some drama about males competing recently that clearly where still 100% male and breaking a bunch of records and stuff. Personally I think there needs to be power classes or something. I mean boxing has weight divisions.
CGWN
Besides the recent news about the runner who came in six thousandth place in the London Marathon (while raising money for charity) who never transitioned, the majority of those "cis-man" situations are someone trolling the sport's governing body for attention and/or political clout. "See, I can break all of these records, which means no trans person can compete fairly."
LetumComplexo
By that logic the solution of banning trans athletes is to punish all the people who are genuinely trans that we know exist just to keep the *almost entirely hypothetical* group people who aren’t from taking advantage of the system?
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
if this is a real problem I'm sure you can show statistics of it occurring at a significant rate, right?
Aaronb1138
The facts and timeline of Laurel Hubbard's competitive weight lifting career are very much at odds with that last part. And her statements can't be taken without a lot of consideration for those facts first.
CGWN
Which facts would those be?
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
she's lost competitions to cis women
icurays1
Yeah good friend of mine was a very strong rock climber and the changes that have come w/ transition have made it so they've had to totally relearn in a new body. The idea that trans women are automatically elite athletes is bogus.
Metlahaed
Interestingly rock climbing is one of the few sports where there isn’t a huge gap in abilities between men and women
icurays1
Mostly agree but it's hard to quantify since it's such a body and route-specific activity. Many more men have climbed at the super-elite level (5.15/V15+), but many of these routes were also FA'd by large men so may not suit other body styles. Also not sure how the stats compare when adjusting for demographics (there are more men in climbing to begin with, so obviously more at the elite level).
thelegendofthetwistednavigator
Less strong than you were (and stronger than your son) is relative, subjective and anecdotal. It may be true, it may be indicative of a more general experience but it isn't evidence of anything. Is your son 2? Is he 28 and a 400lb linebacker? Despite a more noble position it's essentially the "I'm cold and it's colder than I remember so there's no global warming" logic.
DarkZalgo
My dude, testosterone doesn't just build muscle, it helps *keep* muscle. When you transition and block your testosterone, you're literally depriving your muscles of the hormones they need to maintain themselves, and thus they waste away.
thelegendofthetwistednavigator
You seem to be missing the point. I'll leave you to it
DarkZalgo
..? If you have a point to say, then say it. Don't be a coward and hide behind vague bullshit.
thelegendofthetwistednavigator
You didn't understand the point, it isn't difficult and I can't be arsed to dumb it down to your level. You can read it again and try the comprehension thing or not but it isn't my job to spoon feed the hard of thinking
peachiepie
This! My wife is trans, and was way stronger than me before hrt. Now she's so weak because she actually has less testosterone than most women. If they wanted to make it fair, I think they should just go by T levels, bc that's what they consider to give an edge. I'm most professional sports, they already test for T due to abuse. In kids sports, everyone should just get the fuck over it and let kids play games.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865 cis women are still stronger. Kids' sports shouldn't matter. I don't care if there is a golden retriever on the team (in fact, it would probably make it much better). But, in competitive athletes, biologic sex is still an advantage even years after HRT
peachiepie
They've only used 18 people in their study. This is not a good sample size. Given how much muscle composition varies in cisgender people, one should expect the same variation in transgender people. When a naturally fit and muscular cis woman participates, no one calls foul. If we're only going by 18 people, the group of trans women I know have a different experience that contradicts this study.
TheMayorOfTittyCity
You may be looking at the wrong thing. I posted a systematic review encompassing 24 studies ranging form 12 to 249 participants spanning 20 years. There is no part of the study that refers to 18 people.
peachiepie
You're right, I don't know where my brain got 18... Sorry! I disagree with you, bit I don't know why you got down voted for correcting my mistake. Looking at it closer, I'd still say the amount of muscle some trans women retain over cis women is within a range that is acceptable. It's a small amount and there are plenty of beefy cis women with genetics that do the same or more.
meskarune
kids sports shouldn't even be segregated by gender
FlameOnGingerGirl
One thing to keep in mind with judging T levels, I've heard that levels can vary, especially between racial groups. The IOC uses standards based on a sample that I've heard is largely based on white women and they've hassled cis women of color for not fitting their standards. There was a runner who had to fight the IOC to competing, IIRC. Bad data can mess things up.
SarcasticSebastian
I've seen papers suggest that MTF people retain an 11% increased average muscle mass over born females after 1 year...but considering I (cis male) was in the 900 club in high school during football and I was barely even average, muscle mass is far from the deciding factor in sports.
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
Blood O2 transportation is far more important than mass to muscle performance and that is mediated by testosterone. Ligaments and tendons are affected by estrogen. HRT changes performance so much that trans women have a disadvantage against cisgender women all else being equal.
SarcasticSebastian
Hm, interesting, I didn't know that. But yeah, the debate was settled ages ago even without getting super scientific. Everyone inherently knows that the most physically capable player of any given sport isn't necessarily the best. There are lots of factors that determine success in sports, with physical traits being only a portion of that.
VitaminBeaPositive
Same here. Former boxer. Need two hands to carry cat litter now. The argument against trans people in sports ignores the muscle atrophy that almost every transwoman experiences and in fact want. I am happy I've lost most muscle.
Tyrann01
Ironic that HRT makes us crave pickles, but prevents us opening the jars.
darthnerdus6236
... surely Universities are recruiting and stacking their teams with all these super performing trans athletes then, right? /s
SerialChickenLover
“No one transitions to be good at a sport” is basically at the crux of this all. It’s ludicrous to believe that someone who put their body through all of that just to break a record or win a trophy. The conservative talking points make it sound like that’s exactly what’s happening, that men are just trying to beat women at their own sports. When you really think about the implications of what they’re suggesting, it’s all so completely asinine.
Marsmallowmancer
This is exactly it. I'm a little uncertain about it too because I've seen both sides of high school athletics (I used to cover high school sports for a local newspaper), but at the end of the day, no one is going to go through years of hormones, ostracization, and societal pushback just to be able to win at high school sports...and high school sports aren't about winning anyways. Ask any (good) coach and they'll tell you it's about learning teamwork and discipline.
mcfuckstick
exactly, the same people that make fun of women doing anything they believe is a man's role all of a sudden pretend to care about title ix, I'm not buying it
BaklavaWearingBalaclavaWhilePlayingBalalaikaOnBlackLava
I'm not trying to come off as transphobic because I love my trans homies, but there are real examples of men transition and going into women's sports and just dominating. 2 male runners who transitioned to female then set new world records for their division. MtF wrestlers, lifters, runners, and a few more sports have had some upsets due to MtF players just cleaning house.
Leithoa
You're being sold genocidal propaganda by fascists.
Secular
It's never a fair competition and the starting point for all of this gatekeeping was a swimmer angry that she tied for FIFTH in a swimming competition with a trans competitor
butterflystrokesbykim5
Yes!!!
Morpheaus
A lot of what you are saying is inaccurate and completely lacking in context.
DepressivesBrot
Did the runners really set *world* records tho? Somehow these stories are always from state level competitions where the wins look very impressive but it's easy to find better times from cis girls the previous year or in another state. The lifter won silver. She was beat by another woman in that same competition. Oh, and the wrestler is a trans guy. This is literally the result of idiots forcing him to compete with girls and exploits the general confusion around transition directions.
snailbait
Genuine question: State level competitions shouldnt be discredited. You countered this really well, but aren't you overlooking the local impact? What about cis gendered women who compete at the top of there league, and then get trounced by a MtF athlete who performed average among men. For example Lia Thomas ranked 545th competing as a man, and tank 5th competing as a woman. Although this time isn't record breaking, she is comparable to other top cis femal athletes while being average vs cismale
DepressivesBrot
That's a good question because people really love to pick out the 545th to 5th in one particular discipline while ignoring the wider context. Her wiki article has some more highlights from her early career: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_Thomas so when you see things like "6th fastest national men's time" or "ranked 32nd in the 1650 freestyle" and several significant second places from before she started HRT, does it still sound like some mediocre bloke suddenly became a top athlete?
OMGthisnameisnttaken
I don't want to limit people being able to play in the league they want, but men's records are normally 10% better than women's, just as a general rule. Elite athletes will help to close that gap, but I believe that might be a problem in the high school and even college levels.
BaklavaWearingBalaclavaWhilePlayingBalalaikaOnBlackLava
MtF runners: >https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/us-students-and-parents-outraged-after-transgender-teen-sprinter-breaks-record/DVODNJX73JZ5FNCYJO53DDYVP4/ Lifting: https://nordiclifting.com/blogs/fitness/transgender-broke-weightlifting-records-by-winning-2-medals-in-iwf Wrestling: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title
chiechien
The wrestler is FtM, forced to compete with girls despite wanting to compete with the boys.
Hevach
Also, the runner's time was a full second and a half slower than the state girls' record and she wasn't in the state's top ten girls for the year. She dominated a school whose second best times were absolutely dismal.
Xenavire
See, this seems closer to steroid use than anything - either competing too soon after transitioning or not following the hormone treatments correctly would give them an advantage, and like steroids, that would be unfair. Regulated properly, with proper buffer time for a body to adjust? Shouldn't be an issue.
nicoleoftheeast
Ftm hrt requires repeated testosterone injections. There is no buffering. If they were to compete in a women’s league, this would be the equivalent of using steroids. If they competed in a men’s league I see no issue.
Xenavire
I'm sure there is a period of time going either way that the body is adjusting - gaining or losing muscle mass, etc. All I'm saying is let the body reach the new normal (the intended goal) before allowing them to compete (although it's less of an issue for ftm, it's certainly an issue for mtf.) It may suck for a few professional athletes to have to wait, but it should be seen as part of recovery - you are a man/woman now, but your body needs more time to recover.
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
FtM men want to compete in mens leagues because they are men, but transphobes keep pushing for trans men to compete with women. Because it's not about fairness in sports, it's about enforcing their view of the world.
Iputthebestinbestiality
While you're not at same strength as before, women who went through male puberty do have an advantage. Not in all sports, but several. I absolutely understand that there's a big transphobic group out there, but not everyone who's against it fall into that category. Up to puberty age there's not really any point in separating by genders in sports. It's on the elite levels where marginal differences come into play. Semi sidenote, anyone who's cheated with steroids or testo supplements will also
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
The IOC has already done decades of studies and research and concluded that there is no advantage and no good reason to segregate or exclude trans people from sports.
3minence
*citation needed
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
I believe @tinyoctopus had a link to the IOC documents elsewhere on this post.
Iputthebestinbestiality
have an advantage, even after they've quit and are back to normal levels. Athletes with doping (enhancing drugs, not cannabis etc etc) convictions should be barred from professional competitions for life. Or, we should have a "free for all league" cause I'm very curious how well someone who's doped up beyond recognition would fare 😅
bs3080foshizzle
I respect that and understand that. But can we agree that in general it gives an advantage in sports?
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
The thing is though, it really doesn't.
bs3080foshizzle
You don't think an adult male who transitions to woman has an advantage in sports?
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
Based on personal experience, on what the many other trans women in the comments are saying, on the findings of the International Olympics Committee and their decades of studies and research, and on 20 years of trans people being allowed to compete in the Olympics... No. It's a non-issue created by the far-right to paint trans people as a 'problem' that needs 'discussion' and 'solving'.
ProfetaDelNopal
The lingering question is, even after treatment, would a trans athlete still be stronger, etc than the average female athlete? I mean, i'm not fit or anything, but i could probably take on 80% of women in a room, and probably 10% could kick my ass to the moon. If i was to take on men, those numbers would be very different. I guess there needs to be more data on this but my gut feeling is that there would still be an advantage for the trans female athlete. We need some science!
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
The IOC has already done decades of studies and research and concluded that there is no advantage and no good reason to segregate or exclude trans people from sports.
ProfetaDelNopal
Not to call BS but, decades? I'm talking about hard data. The Tokyo olympics were probably the first with openly trans athletes.
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
Trans people have been allowed to compete since 2004, and before that the IOC did a LOT of science to come up with the rules under which we can compete.
101Medic
I'm wanting to say that if you transition before puberty it's a far different thing than a post puberty transition. But then you have to ask if it's ethical to allow young'uns to make that kind of decision at that age. My tattoo ideas at 12 would've been a HUGE mistake, let alone making that kind of change to my body. I don't *think* many younger trans people regret transitioning later in life, but it's something to consider since we don't let kids make other life altering choices that young.
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
Nobody is making irreparable or irreversible choices regarding transition that young, at most transition young involves puberty blockers and a haircut. Hair grows, and discontinuing blockers just means that puberty restarts.
101Medic
Well, TIL. I definitely thought delaying puberty would have a larger effect if the meds sta ing off were stopped.
101Medic
Staving*
Totallyscrewedinaustin
On the other side, I'm a pretty strong female who does a lot of heavy lifting for work, who enjoys being able to open pickle jars for people! Love how everyone is different and we can all help each other to our strengths (whatever they may be!)
littlemuseling
Treasured and adored are the pickle jar openers. -Every pickle lover who can't open jars
WillyLaShade
Make Pickle Jar Opening an Olympic Sport
ThaWhiteRanger
Strong girl. Farm?
youareandshallalwaysbemyfuzzy
Excellent reference
ShushBeQuietSilly
Oooh that's an old but goodie +1
paintingagency
You guys could be in a pickle-jar themed roommate sitcom.
iCommunicateInGifs
JadeNB1729
The classic will they/won't they open the pickle jar dynamic has kind of been done to death, though. (And now "they opened the pickle jar" sounds like innuendo.)
paintingagency
ALD THEN THEY ALL [opened the pickle jar]
CrossEyedPigeonToed
Thank you for that!
AmProffessyWillHelp
I've lifted for 10+ years. When I started HRT the amount of push-ups I could do went down by 30% right away. Almost a year of consistently lifting 5-6 days a week with consistent routines and I've gone from bench pressing 255lbs@5 reps to 225lbs@2 reps, max. All my lifts are lower, my cardio stamina is not the same, and my balance has shifted with the recomposition of body fat. My whole diet has had to change and my lifts automatically regress with any time off, which is new for me. It's wild.
DaveTheScientist
Testosterone blocking meds are literally anti-steroids. They make it incredibly hard to put on new muscle, and increase the rate at which you lose muscle. Most high level sporting bodies require trans women to be on those meds for 2-5 years before they're allowed to compete.
SonOfChicken
Even if everything was given the go ahead. A cpl of Olympics later we could probably tell the difference? There is no need to be so invested in this
coffeeandprozac
No, there is a need. If we can't collectively care about people and how they're treated in every facet of society, we build a bad habit and let *gestures to current civil rights challenges* go on forever and it all gets worse over time, as we see today.
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
Trans women have been able to compete as our own gender (women) in the Olympics for ages. If we had any advantage at all it would be very evident by now.
TheSlouchOfBethlehem
this aichat I had a few weeks ago supports your observations /a/2BIkwvI
Teeheewink
Thanks for sharing that.
CrossEyedPigeonToed
Nice work!
TheSlouchOfBethlehem
eh, thought I was replying to @notsure13, but it looks like you figured that out.
Kehy
I'm a heavy- built female working construction, so I'm inherently going to be stronger than many, by force of occupation
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nesurame
Spoken like someone that's never worked construction.
LadyOfTheRedMoon
No you don't. That's why you've been making bad Faith arguments all over this entire post.
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
I can back that up. I used to be STRONK LIKE BEAR but after a few months of hormones I had to get my wife to open jam jars for me and I struggled to carry stuff that before was trivial for me. Plus my tolerance for alcohol is gone, I used to drink like a fish but now I get squiffy after half a cider. Stamina is also down too.
notsure13
Right!? No one warned me about the alcohol tolerance.
theoracleofdreams
How are your salty cravings? My friend didn't realize that her salty cravings were due to her hormones until I was PMSing like he'll and asked if she would share a basket of McDonald's fries because I was craving it. She asked if it was normal to want salty things because that's all she thinks about some days and couldn't figure out why. 😊
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
Yes, salt cravings. GIVE ME THE PICKLES!
theoracleofdreams
My weakness!!!! 💖🤤
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chetnixandflill
What in the actual fuck is wrong with you? There's no way you're innocently wording it this way. Get the fuck back under your rock, you ignorant asshole.
Akurei00
Unsure if you were trying to be an ass or just bad with words. Try "cis or trans" next time to show them some respect.
VitaminBeaPositive
Same. All of it. My wife is the muscle of the house now. I've lost 5 inches off my chest of all muscle.
Rubblebubble
It's also not just strength, the transgender swimmer who the RW pundits often cite saw a significant decrease in her times after transitioning. Strength, speed, endurance, overall physical performance are impacted by transitioning. You should also consider how it would be enforced, some sports bodies have implemented testosterone testing of athletes and AFAB women with naturally high testosterone have been required to take medication to lower their hormones in order to compete.
ProfetaDelNopal
That last bit sucks. If she is a biological woman and her testosterone levels are natural, then that should be the new bar. It's like," you are not woman enough, woman!"
CrossEyedPigeonToed
I don't think it's about natural levels, it's about how they can't tell if they're natural or synthetic. So someone cheating shooting up testosterone could just play it off as natural. This is of course completely unfair to the people with natural levels, but cheaters always seem to fuck it up for everyone else.
Rubblebubble
Exactly but that sort of thing is what happens when everyone gets so concerned with who is and isn't a "real" woman. Same issue is with intersex people, or with gender conforming people who have XXY chromosomes. Without genetic testing they may not even know
JT1984
OK, but what about this? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportbible.com/other/male-enters-womens-powerlifting-event-and-shatters-record-848829-20230330.amp.html
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
That was not a trans woman, that was a man who exploited a loophole to cheat by lying. Same plot as AirBud.
HolyZymurgist
so, someone not on any hormones? not that much of a surprise
michaelpencil
Good point. See, that's the thing. We can't just solve this logic through downvoting it... that's the whole point of this post. I wish the people who downvote would share their thinking on this, because I truly don't care for the knot that it creates in my head that makes me feel like a bigott. Maybe athletes should actually be sorted by some other classification than gender? The horse power top comment sounds convincing, tbh...
impatom
He isn't trans nor has he ever been trans. He claimed to be a woman to exploit a poorly implemented rule in order to spite a trans athlete, so uh, it's entirely meaningless.
suzelloozel1978
In my very humble and completely uninformed person on the street opinion, if the hormone therapy changes the body especially muscles so that there is no unfair advantage, then it seems to me to be fair.
veryhairyarea
I am uninformed in the subject but are all the high lvl athletes that have gotten hormone treatments, that have began competing?
RobertPedersen
Once boys goes through puberty it's no longer a fair fight. Lungs and heart are enlarged, muscle mass is increased by 30%. These changes can not be undone.
SerialChickenLover
What about someone not on HRT, though? What if someone is hormonally a typical male but has only transitioned socially (name, clothing, pronouns, etc.)?
pastramionrye
For people who have already gone through puberty this doesn’t hold water to me.
Gerthquake
I largely agree with this, a person's current conditioning is more or less king in many sports and a person's conditioning does in fact fundamentally change on HRT. I can think of only one notable exception and it's power lifting. There's no making up for going through puberty on male hormones, larger muscle attachment areas on larger bones to work with going forward. But it's an individual sport, seems to me the fairest solution is simply to add Trans individuals as 2 new record categories.
Korugar
The counter argument I have heard (and I don't know if this is true) is that during developmental years a certain amount of things get solidified that aren't fully overcome by HRT. So if there is a competition in which men tend to do better than women, an average male would be an above average female post transition if their lifestyle otherwise is unchanged, but the margin would be reduced. I don't know how much evidence there is for this, though.
donkeymoney
Studies show that advantages persist. And who would enforce 6 months HRT minimum, anyway??
duramater1
It matters when you have been training. As training is more than just exercising. It is also recovering. Training is where performance enhancing drugs or even natural hormones matter. You don’t take testosterone the day of a race. You take it because it helps your recover from hard efforts and do it again the next day. Not everyone who does this becomes Barry Bonds but in an “equal” field it provides advantage. Male development is a biological advantage for any gender in sports.
Callipygius
It should just be divided as "open" or "female only". Anyone who is and always has been unambiguously a female can compete in the female only division. Everyone else, including cis men and trans individuals, can compete in the open division
dasklaus
The only thing that remains is build, like bone structure and size, but yes, muscles depend completely on hormones. You lose muscles fast on anti-androgens - I've gained so much muscles not moving at all since starting testosterone, it's crazy. Trans men in the women's league, now that'd be unfair.
DaMummy
This would be a much easier argument to make, if athletes didn't already take supplement and hormones that gave them ad advantage in their respective sport, both male and female.
morninggloryshade777
I would say: 'supplements' in this situation might need to be regulated. Or the results measured in the body.
Iputthebestinbestiality
Well, we do have anti doping agencies and try to get rid of that 🤷🏻♂️
Clockworkdancerobot
Funny how so many people "Concerned about women's Sports" are sports people who have taken a lot of "supplements"
morninggloryshade777
Yeah, full circle-!
atomfixes101
Now, if you look at the results, I think it’s clear there is an unfair advantage
atomfixes101
The problem people don’t understand is hormone levels are easily gamed. So very easily. If you have weekly tests I can have my testosterone levels redlined 5 days of the week, and EXTREMELY low by day 7 to pass these tests. so while they say “ testing keeps it fair” it doesn’t. You would have to test them every day
Trashedpanda
Huh, I have not really thought about it like that. Good point!
CrossEyedPigeonToed
A few people have said this now, and it's a really valid point I never even though of. Thank you!
CongratsYouAreHereNow
It doesn’t though
tootsmcclure
How do you feel about women being on men’s teams? In my town we’ve had female football players, but males or trans people being on the softball or volleyball (girl) teams doesn’t have the same fanfare. I would also like to put up for consideration that I could out leg lift most of the boys in my 8th grade gym class when weight lifting. Many girls are stronger than boys in puberty.
ManOCheese
Has anyone provided the actual science and data for this? Because all of these opinions are pretty worthless when you can just look at what the research says. The real answer is that hrt removes almost all advantages for trans women after a year. That's for them as a group, a lot will lose all advantage and it needs to be reviewed per individual. The researchers all recommend they be allowed to compete.
ManOCheese
I can dig out some references if needed
MermaidLullaby
On top of that, we don't disallow tall people from participating in their chosen sport even if it gives them a very clear advantage over people who aren't as tall. We classify certain sports by weight precisely because one weight has an unfair advantage over others. Sports are inherently unfair and so fairness is never a good argument in regards to trans people in sports.
TheMightyDusk
But up until now...have not competitive sports always been sex segregated as the first, overarching level of filtering towards "fairness"? Weight classifications were...an additional filter after this first big one right?
rainehdaze
That heavily depends on the sport. Some things, there's not really any evidence for a massive weighting based on sex--the split is entirely because either women wouldn't get in at all otherwise, or because men didn't want to compete with women. When there IS a split based on something influenced by androgens, trans women quickly lose any advantage (and then you have to think on how you're selecting for hormonal outliers too)
Raeke
This is a good point though, because you don’t see conservatives freaking out as much over the, say, middle and high school football teams that allow girls to participate on almost exclusively male football teams. This argument is just another way to control trans youth.
Akurei00
I've wondered about whether trans eventually physiologically adopt the same strengths and weaknesses of their desired sex. My follow-up is then at what point should they switch from one sport classification to another? Thanks for this post, btw. It's been informative, so far.
Dirk2131
The science is still developing, however early data and anecdotal evidence suggest that after a year (at latest, two years) on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT), Transgender Women and other Transgender people taking Testosterone suppression (including HRT) perform at levels comparable to Cisgender Women (Cis meaning not-Trans or Intersex). Professional cyclist Jillian Bearden lost 11% performance after 1.5 years on HRT, matching the approximate 11% difference in Men and Women cyclists (Harper).
Dirk2131
HARPER, JOANNA. “Athletic Gender.” Law & Contemporary Problems, vol. 80, no. 4, Oct. 2017, pp. 139–53. EBSCOhost, libproxy.cnm.edu:8443/login?url=https://https://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=i3h&AN=128413373&site=ehost-live&scope=site.
Dirk2131
Remember, intentional misgendering of Trans people is not okay, regardless of which sport's team they play on. When anti-Trans advocates misgender, they are indicating the 'debate' is about excluding and marginalizing Trans people, rather than ensuring fair competition in sports. The IOC and NCAA both advise or have policies that recognize Trans athletes' identities, even when playing on a team of another gender. In my opinion, supporting social transition is a bare minimum policy requirement.
IusallypoopwhileImonhere
It’s not though. Female trans athletes have a loss in certain muscle mass and if your banning trans men for their testosterone levels then you should ban cis men. They have the same levels in their system. Especially when they are going through puberty. It gives 0 benefits to be trans athlete
TheSwedishCryptid
So like another thing... should we ban women that are just genetically taller than average? How far will we go with eugenics to avoid any and all advantage...? In Olympic games they have rules that you need to lived as your chosen gender for a few years and been on HRT for min 1 year (and they do measure) and makes sure that you're within female range. So any bullshit about a man just randomly saying "I'm a woman" just to compete is a strawman argument.
Dirk2131
Yes. And the IOC and NCAA both have or recommend policies that recognize athlete's gender, regardless of HRT. Supporting social transition is a bare-minimum requirement. This means the intentional misgendering of Transgender people by 'concerned' anti-trans advocates casts doubt on the genuineness of their concerns and suggests its about marginalizing and excluding.
MermaidLullaby
I'm a 6'1" cis woman and yes, women like me *are* banned from certain sports or at least heavily discouraged/eliminated from participation based on our height. I'm tall, I'm broadly built, and I would for example rarely to never be able to compete in many forms of dance such as ballet because of this. Even cis women who don't fit the desired gender presentation preferences are excluded for not being feminine enough. Same is true for men not fitting expected masculine presentations.
TheSwedishCryptid
Oh, that's a good point! I didn't think of dance at the moment! Or other sports that focus heavily on feminity, like gymnastics. Most of the dialogue among sports is with stuff that is solo 1 vs. others, like running or swimming. If a transwoman is shorter than the female average and lighter than the female average and been on HRT for years, I find it unreasonable to ban them if they fit every criteria needed except they are AMAB.
TheSwedishCryptid
The weird part is when a transman was forced to wrestle the women! And they pointed it out as a man wrestling women is unfair and that's why their law to an transpeople should exist... but that shit happened solely cuz of their law. Cuz transphobes are idiots that negatively affect ciswomen just as much as transwomen. If they don't follow their sets of beauty standards.
TharrickLawson
Phelps has big hands, long arms, double-jointed ankles and reduced lactic acid production, but we haven't banned him from competing even though he has a whole pile of unfair physical advantages
MermaidLullaby
I also want to offer the viewpoint that top athletes of the same gender only got there because of their inherent genetic advantage, too. There's a reason why people can't train past certain points and get better and max out at their absolute capacity. Most of these people never make it to the top within their gender segregation because their genetics don't allow them to. So by default every top sport is unfair to those with genetics that don't permit them to get to that level.
TheMightyDusk
I would advise against the use of "only" statements in your arguments if seeking to proffer validly composed discourse. It's trouble otherwise.
MermaidLullaby
It's just a biological fact that we are limited in what we can do based on our inherent genetics. Without deliberately altering the way the body metabolizes and creates muscle and endurance through drugs, we can only perform to the level our bodies allow us to. We can't surpass our limitations through sheer will power. If that was the case top athleticism would look incredibly different.
MermaidLullaby
That said, this is not an argument for division based on gender/sex assigned at birth. Hormones, dictated by our genetics and factors we do not consciously control, decide what level of performance we're inherently capable of. Plenty of men perform on the same level as women when we look at averages. And plenty of women have hormone levels that put them on the same level as top men athletes. Sexism is genuinely the one thing keeping men and women segregated in sports.
rainehdaze
The olympics: selecting for nature's fringe cases in the name of national dick-waving
runefjord2
That is a good balanced opinion to have, but it also leads to the question when is it an unfair advantage? where is the line between "this person would be the best in the world if their hormones had always been like this" and "this person is clearly cheating by having changed their hormones during their lifetime". Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps both have an unfair genetic advantage against almost, if not everybody on the planet there might be a transversion of that even if they were non-trans
fishbicyclerepairman
At the elite levels of any sport, you’re already dealing with genetic outliers. It’s a complex issue that does not lend itself well to the bumper sticker level conversations we’re having in the US
Dirk2131
Regrettably, it's worse than just bumper sticker conversations. People are intentionally misgendering transgender athletes. That is not okay. The bare minimum policy is supporting social transition, regardless of which team a person plays for. The conversation in the US is about excluding and demonizing Trans people.
morninggloryshade777
Only some in the USA are excluding & demonizing. And they all ascribe to 1 political party....
Dirk2131
I am aware. I hope we can see more support rallied behind the Transgender community, because Trans people need allies. If this front is lost, there will be a precedent for removing rights.
kaarbaakimgr
I support social transition. I don’t support competitive transition.
morninggloryshade777
Why???
Dirk2131
I am glad you aren't making the decisions. You need to substantiate why, because I have been providing sources that show Trans inclusion in elite level sports is fair after just a year on HRT.
SomebodyalreadytookMyPants
Going through puberty as a male gives you a lifelong advantage physiologically, Like @OP I don't know what the right answer is. I want everyone to be free to compete in a way that is comfortable to them but I don't know what the answer is when it comes to fairness to a gender that already suffers massive inequalities in sport,
Myrealnameisunusual
That's pretty much the answer. Although not everyone will agree. If the contest involves strength then being a male at puberty gives you an advantage.
dasklaus
Does it though? And for which sports? What's the evidence base here? As far as I can tell it really depends and nobody really knows and professional sports is a genetic lottery either way.
kaarbaakimgr
Because screw science, amIright?
dasklaus
Kinda the opposite of what I'm saying?
VIguy15
Could they have a transgender class the same way they have a male and female class? Or would that be seen as singled out ?
berserkerteacup
Separate but equal is a bad thing.
SomebodyalreadytookMyPants
interesting question
RoyalWithChz
I don’t think there’d be enough contestants
CallMeNoodles
I think the issue is that they are a small minority and there might not be enough to compete separately
Dirk2131
Puberty does have life long affects on a person's body (why puberty blockers are so important). The advantages being lifelong is not evidenced, however. Early scientific data suggests Transgender Women and other athletes taking Testosterone suppression for a year (at most, two years) lose performance, creating parity with Cisgender (not Trans or Intersex) Women. Professional cyclist Jillian Bearden experienced 11% performance loss after 1.5 years on HRT, creating fair competition. (Harper).
CrusherOfCities
The body of research on this is very sparse, and early studies were often biased or problematic. Same researcher 3 years later: "Notwithstanding, values for strength, LBM and muscle area in transwomen remain above those of cisgender women, even after 36 months of hormone therapy." - Harper, Joanna, "How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin? Systematic review with a focus on the implications for sport participation" April 2020
Dirk2131
I admit the research is sparse. Harper accurately points to the performance of Jillian Bearden, which suggests that the other non-hormonal concerns are less concerning for the outcome of a sport. Physiological anomalies are common in elite sports, so focusing solely on the Transgender athletes is disingenuous-- many Cisgender Women in elite sports have 'abnormally' favorable traits. Evidenced by the unequally applied standard, this debate is often about discriminating against gender minorities.
CrusherOfCities
I agree on all points. The legislators talking about the issue give zero fucks about the science, and the body of science has been poor because it's such a niche topic involving such a small population that many of the people studying it were doing so because they had a vested interest in a particular outcome and/or can't get significant sample groups. Not to mention the number of researchers that won't touch the subject for fear of misuse by the above ill-intentioned folks.
Dirk2131
Harper, Joanna. “Athletic Gender.” Law & Contemporary Problems, vol. 80, no. 4, Oct. 2017, pp. 139–53. EBSCOhost, libproxy.cnm.edu:8443/login?url=https://https://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=i3h&AN=128413373&site=ehost-live&scope=site.
SomebodyalreadytookMyPants
Thanks, That's really informative. I had heard it was life long and just believed it. Science is better.
ZeroLogain
The issue seems to he - based on limited knowledge and research - if the person went through puberty as a male they retain advantages. A three year study of non-athletes still showed above average (for a born female) muscle mass, never mind additional considerations (reach etc)
dasklaus
From the trans women I met: mass yes, strength no. Like, it takes long for the mass to go away, but they're "soft" muscles, not a practical advantage. Show me a study that actually measures performance and I might change my mind.
ZeroLogain
British journal of sports medicine published one recently, showed transwomen retained strength higher than ciswomen but lower than cismen. Same for tidal lung volume. Small study, and all transwomen involved had gone through puberty as males, so if puberty blocking would change this was not addressed. Some elements normalized with cis-women, but not all. Participants on HRT 10+ years. https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/56/22/1292
dasklaus
I concede this point, but also note that the text was corrected from “These findings could inform policy and help in decisions about the participation of transgender women in sporting activities.” to “This study was in non-athletes and findings may not apply to policy decisions about the participation of transgender women in sporting activities.” and wonder how this got changed.
ZeroLogain
Someone probably (rightly) pointed out the overall difference from standard that athletes of all types have and that a similar study with all athletes (trans and cis) is still needed to be truly meaningful. For me the real take away was in tidal lung volumes, I'd also be interested in knowing the result on actual heart capacity in athletes. As has been said none of this really matters unless you're comparing the top 0.01% of athletes, rec league or kids games it's not a big deal.
Dirk2131
Early data shows athletes on HRT lose performance and reach parity with Cisgender (not Trans or Intersex) Women in elite sports (Harper). The reason athletes are different from non-athletes is because athletes work out to push against physical limitations. While testosterone will make Cis-men stronger than Women from baseline (average day-to-day) activity, the testosterone advantage is in getting more results from less work. Women athletes have longer, more intense workouts to compensate.
Dirk2131
Harper, Joanna. “Athletic Gender.” Law & Contemporary Problems, vol. 80, no. 4, Oct. 2017, pp. 139–53. EBSCOhost, libproxy.cnm.edu:8443/login?url=https://https://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=i3h&AN=128413373&site=ehost-live&scope=site.
Dirk2131
The NCAA agrees that Testosterone plays a larger role in performance difference between Men and Women in athletics, and that Testosterone suppression (including HRT) is sufficient in creating a fair sports environment. Furthermore, social transition needs to be respected regardless of which team an athlete plays for (Gerstein and Gerstein).
Dirk2131
Gerstein, Ralph, and Lois Gerstein. “Accommodating the Needs of Transgender Students Who Desire to Participate in School Athletic Programs.” Campus Safety & Student Development, vol. 17, no. 3, Spring 2016, pp. 53–54. EBSCOhost, libproxy.cnm.edu:8443/login?url=https://https://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=i3h&AN=114389881&site=ehost-live&scope=site.
HellhathnofurylikeIdoLogan
There is no peer-reviewed evidence that hormone therapy completely takes away the advantages that come with having a male body. If that were the case, people like Lia Thomas wouldn't be competely destroying female records when they didn't even place in the top 100 in male sports divisions.
keoghberry
She won one division, while her average times decreased significantly and she didn't compete in longer races anymore due to lack of endurance. "Her best time in the 500 yards was 5.6 per cent slower than before transition, while her 1,000 yards time was 7.5 per cent slower and her 1,650 yards time was 7.2 per cent slower.
That is less than the 10 to 11 per cent gap Ms Hogshead-Makar says is usually found between men's and women's races" source in next comment
funandjustice
She is taller than the average female swimmer and in swimming that definitely incurs a biological advantage.
HellhathnofurylikeIdoLogan
I'm not arguing that hormone therapy has no affect on physicality. I'm pointing out that hormone therapy cannot fully eliminate the differences in male and female bodies post-puberty. "During the last season Thomas competed as a member of the Penn men’s team, which was 2018-19, she ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. As her career at Penn wrapped, she moved to fifth, first and eighth in those respective events on the women’s deck."
HellhathnofurylikeIdoLogan
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/a-look-at-the-numbers-and-times-no-denying-the-advantages-of-lia-thomas/
keoghberry
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html - I actually didn't know anything about her so I found a very neutral seeming article on it. Hope this helps some people
valvarsson
Would be valid if we were talking mainly about prepuberty transitions. Make puberty induces lasting advantages.
valvarsson
Male*
PuzzledCompletely
And the fact that states are also banning gender-affirming care for youth sort of points out that it isn't about making sports fair.
bigfatpanda89
I agree with you completely on this fact. I also have to reconcile that the number is trans athletes is extremely small across the country and makes it very difficult to legislate anything on it. Truly, I think these points together make a strong argument to leave the decision to a case by case basis
CGWN
There are any number of factors that can give one athlete an advantage over others, and there's not enough data yet to indicate that those provided by going through male puberty would exceed the normal variance found in female athletics.
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
The IOC has concluded after decades of studies that trans athletes have no innate advantage.
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
Also the US military is OK with trans soldiers fighting/operating as our gender.
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
Also the US military is OK with trans soldiers fighting/operating as our gender.
DClaub88
The skeletal structure is unchanged and therefore an advantage remains.
morninggloryshade777
Loss of just 1 hormone has caused me to be almost 3" shorter. For starters & food for thought. Hormones affect a LOT in the body.... And not just muscles, not just bones....
ThatOtherGirlYouKnow
Bones not changing gives trans athletes a DISADVANTAGE, due to muscle attachment issues. Think of it as trying to run a tank (bones) with the engine of a lawnmower (new blood O2 transportation and muscle-bone attachment points and muscle mass/density).
blissblush
Sure, but no more or less than many cis-female athletes. The average WNBA player is over 6 foot tall and many AFAB swimmers have shoulders and arm spans that rival cis-males. Physiology has a wide range even within the same sex — plenty of cis-males are short and have wide hips, and lots of cis-females have tall and square physiques.
blissblush
There's a lot more nuance than just saying transfemales have an inherent advantage. Many who begin HRT in their teen years develop as any AFAB would — shorter stature, wider hips, more petite & slight body type, etc — to the degree that there is no significant advantage beyond the statistical average cis-female population.
Dirk2131
I love your contribution @BlushBlushBlush! It's telling when the conversation focuses on Trans "advantages", while ignoring the fact that anomalies are common place in elite sports. The conversation is regrettably a culture war topic intended to marginalize and exclude, rather than secure fair sports. I want to pointed out that the IOC and NCAA already have policies that are science-supported and protect social transition regardless of which team an athlete plays for.
Monocular0
Yes, but Michael Phelps has an unfair biological advantage over swimmers not born with freakishly long arms. A 6’6” basketball player has a biological advantage over a 5’8” one. Compared to these biological advantages we accept every day, having a skeleton that’s undergone male puberty is trivial. There is, like, one documented case of a trans woman dominating in women’s sports, and she wasn’t even top-ranked. She just did very well (and did very well against men pre-transition).
johnnyboy1996
Makes me wonder what all "natural advantages" are acceptable or unacceptable. Do we measure the skeletons of every athlete and get rid of any that have long limbs, narrow frames or are tall? Do we DNA test for genes related to fat or muscle? Some surveys place MtF average height at around 5'8" so should only women 5'6" be allowed? It's not like men are always physically more adapted for sports or that cis women are always the same shape and size
SomebodyalreadytookMyPants
more significantly is muscle density
TheN8
So we ban tall women too? Gotcha.
Beezlebubble
It's not just skeletal, it's muscular. Males and females have different muscular structures, too. Your randomly picked average man vs average woman, the man usually has a stronger muscular build - it may not be much of a gap for your day to day person, but it's there. When you get to competing athletes, the gap widens. It's not fair, but that's how humans just are.
Monkeyofdoom44
I'm sorry fren but you seem not to have read the first comment in the thread you replied to. I'll summarize for you, hormones change ones muscle mass. So long as one is on hormones for about a year muscle mass will be in line with others.
Miller16of16
This is true. When it comes to lower body, male and female tend to track close to their bodyweight. When it comes to upper body strength the gap widens dramatically.
StupidFreakingName
The muscle difference is tied to hormones, not genetics or which puberty happened first. My ex was MtF and went from jacked to squishy once she started HRT. This is a common phenomenon for transwomen, and trying to use cis-male averages to make arguments about transwomen blatantly disregards actual biology.
delecti
Bones are heavy, and not necessarily an advantage. It's far more complicated than calling it an unambiguous advantage.
Ryebread91
Depends on the sport. Wrestling? There's a reason weight classes exist.
delecti
Yes, but that reason is mostly limited to the benefits of more muscle. Having more bone mass isn't an advantage because it means at the same weight class there's less room for muscle.
CAAFlo
How can you forget heavyweight champion Johnny "ironbones" McGee?