LilithPazuzu
178617
4470
144
Aug 29, 2022 9:06 PM
LilithPazuzu
178617
4470
144
Carrifex
Taxing churches would be the largest tax on the poor in American history. Most churches are under 100 people with meager budgets.
aslum
Pretty sure feeding the hungry wouldn't take 71bil a year
SoMuchPooPooSon
So punish the smaller local churches that are actually involved in local issues, to spite the large ones? By doing so, only the large...
SoMuchPooPooSon
...ones will be able to afford to actually pay taxes and exist, leaving you with nothing but the televangelists and larger churches anyway.
Tqy06
I hear you, but can we start actually taxing corporations first? I feel like churches is peanuts here, they're not the worse
Yupurineutah
I volunterred 5 hrs/ day at my county food bank warehouse. The churches pick up truckloads of free food. That's what they feed the poor.
DaisyWarrior
Just to be clear though, tax write offs are also bullshit
KaJuN
Especially since us poor folk can't really do it anymore.
PaintyGuys
There are legitimate write offs. They just need to close all the loop holes which makes it so abused.
morelikeconsham
tax write-offs have multiple good purposes and are also typically poorly understood. There's a very real chance you are angry about
morelikeconsham
something that isn't even real - no offense.
kaneinencanto
Billionaires first.
adamrac
Churches are 501c3 organizations, non-profits. They work on donations that are already taxed. They have no profit to tax.
Thephedora
In mean yeah. The small church in NY that is swimming in potentially debt struggling no. Joel olsteen? Devil Jesus man? No longer tax vn>
Thephedora
Preacher? Yes, please, tax the hell out of them. They are a political entity at that point.
Evilpercy
The Satanic Temple pays their taxes, and thinks other churches should as well.
shitheadtookmyname
Churches do not have shareholders or owners, so by definition there are no profits to tax
shitheadtookmyname
And taxing churches without teaching all nonprofits would violate the first amendment
shitheadtookmyname
*taxing
servingmytimeinusersub
The grocery store I work at donated almost half a million in food last year. It's a write off. Also we don't tell people how to live.
cbale2000
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the FREE exercise thereof"
TheRealPumpkinQueen
Uh no they dont. Had a friend leave the church when they found out theyd spent over 100k on a giant eyesore of a cross. It's 3 stories tall
TheTickTockMan19
We could also use that 71B to you know... feed the poor.
ThatOneGuyWhoDidThatOneThingAtThatOnePlaceThatOneTime
Had a model church years ago with an old preacher. Would house homeless and help them get back on their feet. Changed after he left
pleaseconsiderthatImightbejoking
Thing is, once you start treating Churches like any other nonprofit... you can't tax them anyway. There's no special exemption for churches.
orbitn
look at the lifestyles of some off these preachers, and try to say "nonprofit" with a straight face.
pleaseconsiderthatImightbejoking
Yep, but that's a case of tax fraud enforcement, not an issue with the tax code.
flyingmonsters
this is good but then you’ll have churches able to preach who to vote for at the pulpit. The reason they can’t now is tax exemption
eadgbe42
Keep in mind, if they pay taxes they'll start getting more involved in government.
Plusonefortheroad
The taxes could also just be used to house and feed the poor anyway, seems like a no brainer for a church trying to help the community.
Allthegoodnamesweretakenbeckygod
Considering how picky they can be about whom they are willing to help.
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Well they don't want to help, yknow, *those* people.
Mgxr44
Is that what you think your taxes go to?!?!
florpglorp
Thats less than half a jeff bezos
carrotsonfire
You can still report the churches that tell you how to vote to the IRS and get a percentage of the reward, btw.
Greenwaxy
Why tax the nonprofits? Tax the oil companies and make WAY more.
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Or, do both. Because church's have clearly not been upholding their end of the separation of church and state bargain.
Greenwaxy
Then you investigate that church and revoke its NPO status. There’s a process in place already.
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Okay let me dumb this down. Joel olsteins prosperity gospel bullshit isn't even found to be in the wrong. And if *tried* investigating a 1/2
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Single church, even one as reviled as Joel's, it would be the same level of croc tear outrage as dropping church's exemption. If you want2/3
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
My idea, make them actually list out EXACTLY what they do to provide charity services and be subject to scrutiny. I've yet to see a 3/4
OrangeFlavours
Going after churches just seems dumb. They are non-profits, there's much better targets - giant corporations and military budgets.
EaNasirIsABastard
Then the non-profit part needs to be enforced. Put any pastor earning over 6 figures in jail for tax evasion.
OrangeFlavours
That's fair, yeah. I think churches should remain non-profits... AND we can eat the rich who earn stupid money.
AawesomeAardvaark
Pastors pay Income tax
Imapseudonym
Yet again, it doesn't work like that. Churches are 501(c) charities. The money was taxed before being donated.
ExistentialDreadlocks
Wash17
Recovering Catholic: How do they report the collection plate cash/checks (under $10k for tax reporting) every Sunday to Uncle Sam 1st?
barnwolf
Pretty sure your donations to a church can be written off. The Church isn't paying taxes on it. You aren't paying (income) taxes on it.
cdlong
Personal donations to churches are usually tax deductible I think, so no, it's not taxed first.
darkNiGHTS0
Huh? So is nearly all the money I spend on goods and services. Do you think because $100 was taxed once it can't be taxed again?
HardArgh
Money is taxed before its tipped waitresses too but still gets taxed as income.
Imapseudonym
Correct. And church employees payroll is taxed as well.
BTanner13000
What about property taxes? Or capital gains on investments? Churches don't pay either. Also, businesses in support of a church not taxed.
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
They claim to be charities or nonprofits but spend as little as 0.7% of their revenue (example LDS) on charitable causes. The rest is profit
dblemaster
That's not what "for profit" means in this context. A church doesn't have shareholders.
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
You don't need to be a publicly traded company in order to be a for-profit business. A hot dog stand is for-profit.
AawesomeAardvaark
And every worker at a church pays tax just like the hot dog seller.
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
So does any employee who works for any kind of business. Doesn't absolve the business owner or corporation from paying taxes as well.
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
You might as well point out that corporate end-customer sales revenue was already taxed multiple times. Payroll, income & sales tax, yet ...
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
there are still corporate income taxes. CEO and shareholder incomes are taxed too. The important question is if US churches operate like ...
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
actual nonprofit organizations or like businesses with sizeable profit margins. The numbers suggest the latter.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Imapseudonym
The same would apply to the Susan B. Komen foundation and numerous other huge charities. Rules are rules.
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
Program Expense Ratio. 77.4% ; Administrative Expenses. 9.9% ; Fundraising Expenses. 12.5%. Meaning 77.4% of revenue are spent toward the...
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
charitable cause. Takes 2 seconds to google. Again, a church like the LDS spends 0.7% on charity and pockets 99.3% as operating expenses.
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
Source: https://www.charitynavigator.org/ein/751835298
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
PS: Don't downvote facts because you hate admitting that churches are for-profit. I know you guys have trouble with reality, but come on.
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
Source for the low charity expenses of US churches: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzZBZGq02g8ZaXpldnhGMnRsQk0/view
Mgxr44
How dare you try to disrupt the echo chamber!
Syxcfaq
Churches don't deserve tax exempt status. Frankly they do more harm than good.
AawesomeAardvaark
The vast majority do plenty of good, sorry if you've had bad experiences
Mgxr44
And you base that on?
RevolutionOnHerLips
What are you basing the claim that they do good on?
Mgxr44
Generally it’s the person that’s making a negative statement about a LARGE group of people is the one expected to back up their bigotry.
Mgxr44
https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/magazine/less-god-less-giving/
Mgxr44
But just to show you what backing up an opinion looks like…
WraithTDK
Are you going to tax litterally EVERY other tax-exempt org as well? Charity? Battered women shelters? "Oh but Wraith, THEY provide..."
IDidntAgreeToTheTermsOfService
Logic and big picture thinking! Not jumping on the band wagon! You must be new here :). Joking aside, well put and thought out +1 to all
tomojeimie
I don't think people realize how much charity churches do. They project that Joel ass hat as every church. Doctrine aside, they can be good
morelikeconsham
I think the general idea isn't to target churches, but rather to revoke their automatic tax-exempt status and instead require them to have
morelikeconsham
the same standards as other tax-exempt orgs to retain tax-exempt status.
WraithTDK
no no no, that's not why they get tax breaks. There is a very specific set of criteria under which you do not need to be taxed. Most...
WraithTDK
charities fall under this criteria. Several outreach programs fall under this criteria. And most churches fall under this criteria....
WraithTDK
and no, "house of God" is not part of it. It's a specific set of rules about how your money comes in and what it's used on. If you want...
morelikeconsham
This is explicitly not true. 501(c)(3) tax code defines "charitable" as including "religious organizations". See following link
morelikeconsham
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exempt-purposes-internal-revenue-code-section-501c3
WraithTDK
to tax churches, the only way you can do that is to alter this criteria. And I 100% promise you that the moment you do, thousands of...
WraithTDK
other programs and organizations, who are ONLY tax-exempt because of the exact same rules that churches you, will suddenly find...
[deleted]
[deleted]
WraithTDK
Cool story. Now tell me how it changes a single word I just said.
TheThingsTheyCarried
They don't, but they do lobby things you support, so obviously that is different. /s
adrianenspired
church and state should remain separate. note this doesn't only mean "no taxes," it means "no politics."
MrRandom314159
Except if a church paid taxes and had no say in how it was spent, does seem like a major subjugation of church instead of separation.
ElioNope
It is impossible to remove religion from politics because both of them are about what people believe people should and shouldn't do.
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Correct, which is why churches should pay taxes like any other corporate style entity that lobbies and bribes gov officials.
DoYouHaveSnacks
Bingo
REdesigns
You are right. I would take it one step higher, and say that religion is the cause that sets humanity back.
REdesigns
And by that I mean. Religion is great, but don't let it rule your life. Come on, its 2022 not 1600!
REdesigns
USA was founded at 1776. take that in.
Kbantar
"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's..."
ChucKTheCanadian
too late for that
PoptartEthernet
Unfortunately this is no longer happening hence the taxation
arfysdad
Too late for the latter. Evangelicals have been openly pushing their christofascism for decades.
weathercow
I agree, but I believe a church should immediately disqualify when they cross that boundary. I hate religion, but I fought for that freedom
weathercow
But I WHOLLY believe they give it up, without a chance to get it back, when they cross that line.
Humdrumdergifan
Could not agree more. Feel free to pay taxes and then have your voice be heard. Otherwise, STFU.
Witcher187
Politicians who talk religion, 3strikes out of office. Churches who preach politics 3 strikes, revoked tax exempt status.
elcee84
A church is a business. Tax them.
Schlagerfuzzi
like.. the US constitution says? like 'democracy' is defined by separation of powers and religion is not one of them?
meskarune
In Finland they have a state church and people claim it means the gov. regulates it more.
ShrokNil
Cool but no one is stopping it from happening anyway so may as fucking well tax them.
Lynkfox
If they lobby or have political goals, tax em. Otherwise, don't, because taxes can be used to oppresss as well. But if they wanna mettle...
TheGhostofElizabethShue
I think that ship may have sailed.
AtomicTincan
Said Noahs tax agent...
maybeamonster
I think if we sink a few of these sailed ships, the others may see the advantages of maintain the previous two harbors agreement.
russianaturi
How does the taxation without representation work with that? Dont they get a voice then (same as now but taxed?)
Ihatedecidingonausername
Individuals right to vote is the representation. The corporate entity is just a classification for a type of organization
russianaturi
But arent corporations deemed as people now? I'm all for it, i just want it without the loopholes
Lethous
Every member of the congregation can vote for their representative. But the church itself cannot lobby. Fair answer to a fair Question
agamemnon8l
Change the "tax" to "fine for illegal solicitation" would be a welcome alternative
GhostsofAcid
You can remain separate and still pay taxes.
IMCastorTroy
Yeah, i'm as much a part of the state as a church is, I still pay taxes
plainoldfool
Would this also apply to all other 503c organizations?
2thless
Yes. And they can deduct whatever expenses. Like the rest of us. Well except w2 employees Trump ended that.
montyman185
There's no reason a church couldn't file as a 501c3, with all the limits go with that, them getting the status by default is dumb
aflarge
Yeah I am 100% okay with churches ACHIEVING a tax exempt status if they qualify like anyone else would have to.
aflarge
Otherwise I should codify my philosophies into a religion and demand that I see a homestead as my "church" and therefore no property tax!
plainoldfool
But many churches are already classified as 501c3. I think the Catholic Church in the United States is (by way of the United States (1)
plainoldfool
Conference of Catholic Bishops).
MechaNinja
TBH I'd be mostly ok with churches not paying taxes if they a) stayed out of politics and b) weren't for profit.
Greenwaxy
They’re not for profit. Income isn’t profit. They don’t have shareholders or an owner.
Ultratoxic
Does their income exceed their expenses? Then they are making a profit. You don't have to have shareholders or an owner to turn a profit
Kamasu0Tra
Here's the owner talking about the board of directors wages:
Kamasu0Tra
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/pope-orders-salary-cuts-cardinals-clerics-save-jobs-employees-n1261937
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Prosperity doctrine might as well be for profit. Its the same shit as late night fortune teller ads.
Greenwaxy
Prosperity gospel is at best heresy and worst treason since the US declared “war on poverty”. That Joel guy should be tarred and feathered.
Badprenup
I'll settle for publicly available documentation that shows monthly donations to the church and what the money is used for
Greenwaxy
NPO’s already have to do similar stuff. The details vary by state.
cmsport2
Most churches actually do this already, even printing weekly donations in bulletins and having open funding meetings.
AawesomeAardvaark
Every church I've been part of does this. I bet you could go to your neighborhood church and ask, they'd probably give it to you.
CedricDur
Lets be realistic that people who staunchly (say that they) believe in gods and angels and magic should not be in charge of decision making.
adrianenspired
should be a lot more common for churches that preach politics to be disbanded + prosecuted : )
KawaiiInari
Yes. Too many churches are telling people how to vote.
Jt68686
If you know of one, report it. They could lose tax exempt status.
Jt68686
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/irs-complaint-process-tax-exempt-organizations#:~:text=Form%2013909PDF%2C%20or%20complaint,4910%20
KawaiiInari
Didn't know this, thank you.
Velv3tThunder
Well that's straying rather far into the "law controlling people's beliefs" territory, but churches should definitely be taxed.
KawaiiInari
The only one trying to control people are the churches telling people to vote Republican, buy guns and support laws that hurt people.
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Well the deal was the church doesn't get involved in politics, they recieve tax exemption. However, church's have clearly not kept their end
adrianenspired
no, it's not.
Taalii
Churches are teling people how to vote and indirectly forcing their views on nonmembers. When they start doing that they should lose al
Taalii
Protections and be deemed a harmful cult instead.
Taalii
In short-if your “beliefs”require you to force others into following the restrictions of your beliefs your beliefs deserve to be told no.
majorcovert
I don't think any organization that benefits from political work should be 501c3 status. That should prevent companies donating to them
JeffGodofBiscuits
not disbanded, just taxed retroactively
kingkongkeom
Taxed retroactively and disbanded...because of tax fraud.
Vixess
The government can't disband a church goddammit. That's basically the same as banning Muslims. You can't disband ideology.
kingkongkeom
Noone is saying to ban religion. It's that congregation that lost tax status that needs to be disbanded. Not the same thing.
JeffGodofBiscuits
LADOW
https://youtu.be/xfSEKTlua3g
SoftKleenex
As long as people don't think this guy represents the average church goer. Definitely the false prophet they warn about
tacosmckinsey
I hate this man....and I do mean the word hate
VaultGirl69
My mom listens to this jackass. She used to play him on the radio when I watched TV, just loud enough to hope I wouldn't notice. Weirdo.
whatspaulplayingtoday
Low Rent Cotton Hill.
DangerBaer
Covoid Mary
aaaaaandimdone
Dude is 100% a demon in a cheap human suit.
Duskiewastaken
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGeSKrKlZJA
WwwhyYouNoLikeMe
This guy is 100% a paedophile
Blackmetalhappiness
He just blew the entire audience.
Daskiel91
He looks like a TES IV Oblivion NPC. The kind you'd find after sundown selling you poison and weapons
WouldAPonyByAnyOtherNameBeAsOffencive
Imgur community is generally wishy-washy, but seeing this comment sitting at 666 points does show some grit being there.
WouldAPonyByAnyOtherNameBeAsOffencive
And back to wishy-washy
IWouldLikeToGetOffThisRideNowPlease
Never saw a more serious cosplayer. This dude is really convinced he has powers
Keifer6644
That sack of shit really said "Don't you stop your tithing!" when the pandemic hit
WarlockSniper
He was afraid he couldn't buy another private jet. He doesn't like to sit with us poor peasants.
CazzaMcSpazza
Who is giving this man money? He's fucking terrifying. I've never seen someone less godly than this man.
BitchButcher
Already forgot about Papa Emeritus?
LucidPariah
Probably old people in the south
JapCarRealGood
ElroydIsGone
I guess it's people that were raised by constantly being abused and beaten by their parents and then told that this is love and parental >
ElroydIsGone
care needed to make them good humans. They see this vile ghastly grimace and think "Yeah, I know that! This guy loves me and cares for me."
Randomman96
The simple folk. The common clay of the land. You know, morons.
bricksanchezmusic101
DangerBaer
Where might one view this movie?
PaintyGuys
It’s on Hulu
c2zvgsVillain
Tell me this dude doesn’t look like the devil himself
ShadowZX
Reading the bible, technically this is the kind of man their god would want
PrecogFrogOnALog
I've always thought of him as a demon in a skin suit
LeviathanOmega
Demon in a skinsuit.
smashpro1
Like a puppet of Vince McMahon.
Botticelliii
Or Peter Greene when he put Loki's mask on.
lAmGnomeAnn
It's the beady little fucking eyes
rbudrick
And the actualdemon face with human skin stretched over it, but yeah.
knobhoblin
Combined with that weirdly big and round head
Zixtank
A devil, at least. No way this fucker rules the place.
redsmerf
Like some frog demon
Retrikaethan
yo don't pin that shit on lucifer, dude was a literal angel.
MapleSyrupMafia
And the only people he killed was from a bet with god to test a man's faith.
GeneralAnubis
Arguably he doomed all of humanity to mortality but that gets into some real lawyery Bible semantics
saintwolfboy22
Oddly enough, that wasn't specifically Satan so much as an unnamed son of God, i.e an angel.
cdlong
This has always bugged me, They can say it would generate $71B, but much of that would evaporate because of the last line.
CrusherOfCities
Last time I dug around for numbers, charity was around 10% of the average church's budget
Boomboomyeahshaketheroom
If that’s your experience with your church I think that’s great but it definitely isn’t the norm.
cdlong
What church do you think I go to? There are plenty of deductions for non-profits, I think all operating expenses are deductible.
TacoPoweredHelicopter
No one pays tax on operating expenses. Only profits.
cdlong
So you agree with me?
UncleMeaty
Only profits are taxed. If they were spending all their money on helping the poor, they wouldn't have to worry about tax.
Syxcfaq
That's a risk I'm willing to take because I bet that's not true.
cdlong
Anything would be a benefit, but what would really make it worth it is then need to file tax documents and the possibility of being audited.
Bugguts1957
I have doubts that most churches could document what they claim to do for the poor. I suspect actual revenue would exceed that estimate
criticallyacclaimedfuckwad
Especially since the majority of "feeding the poor" comes from donated food that they never had to pay for.
cdlong
Absolutely, but that's not the only tax deductible thing they have, I think operating costs, salary, etc.
HeartsAndStars
For real. The insurance on our church is astronomical. We're spending on renovations to bring cost down. Eventual savings and more safety.
SoGrosslyIncandescent
The catholic church I went to as a kid was definitely spending more money on itself than it was helping anyone else.
cdlong
Yeah, we know. They're all like that
nicetomeetyouimdad
Make their financials transparent like public companies
cdlong
That would be fantastic.
iplaytrombone
Then it holds them accountable to those alleged donations. It’s a win-win.
cdlong
yeah it is.
AnAnarchoSyndicalistCommune
Property tax dgaf about your charitable deductions.
januarylover
At the moment that $71B is NOT going to poor people, so...
januarylover
If even HALF of that went to poor people it'd be more than worth the tax write off & would do more for the community than taxes anyway
januarylover
At the moment it's just untaxed money lining the pockets of rich liars
cdlong
I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, we absolutely should. But we should also temper expectations. I'd expect closer to $1B than $71B.
ICheckUsernameAndSuch
Boy do I have some news for you about how many churches there are and how much money they pull in. $71B is not even remotely unbelievable.
januarylover
Your original comment implies it's the act of writing off charitable donations that would reduce the benefits of finally taxing them
AawesomeAardvaark
You're just wrong. The vast majority of churches are not run by the rich and do good things for their community. The few you see on TV
AawesomeAardvaark
are the bad ones. About 50% of church spending is on workers/clergy, all who pay taxes. The other 50% go to the building and missions.
Boooooooo00
Or more importantly people are not going to donate money to a church in the first place if the money is going to be taxed
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
Not as much as you think. The LDS, for example, pockets 99.3% of its revenue. A mere 0.7% go to charity. The average of all churches in ...
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
the US is 29%, and that's only because missionary work / proselytizing counts as charitable activity. For comparison, a real charity like...
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
Red Cross spends over 91% of revenue on a charitable cause. Source: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzZBZGq02g8ZaXpldnhGMnRsQk0/view
cdlong
I'd heard more like 12-14%, but most is tax deductible but non-charity things, assuming the church operation itself isn't charity.
TankTrain
I agree, but you can't tax donations. That money has already been taxed. You can tax whatever money the church earns itself.
tomojeimie
I know some churches have separate for profit arms where they pay taxes on their other ventures. That's the way they all should.
Syxcfaq
That's like saying you can't charge sales tax in a store because the customer already paid taxes on their income. That's just stupid.
tomojeimie
No, it's entirely different. One is a donation. The other is exchanging money for good or services. Bad analogy.
darkNiGHTS0
Church is essentially a "pay what you want" membership. It is a service, why else would ppl go to church if they didn't get anything back?
TankTrain
If a person donates money, they're using money from their income to do that. They have already paid income tax on that money. So to then tax
AawesomeAardvaark
Aren't donations to churches tax deductible?
TankTrain
I'm a train driver, not an accountant. So I am not an expert in this stuff in any way. As far as I know, donations to charities are tax
TankTrain
deductible. Churches are considered charities. I'm guessing that because the money is to be put directly back into the community, and is not
BTanner13000
I don't think you understand how churches are classified. Not the same as a 501c. They do not have to report finances, and most don't. /1
TankTrain
Nope. Not at all. Plus I'm Australian. So our tax system is different. I just trying to apply a broad concept that's relatable worldwide.
TankTrain
the church on the donation they receive, you are now changing that donation to income. So if you then tax that money, you are charging
TankTrain
income tax twice on that money. And you can't do that. This is why a non-profit that runs on donations doesn't pay tax. Because the money
TankTrain
they receive has already been taxed. So obviously, there needs to be strict rules as to how a non-profit uses their money. If they break