AhSureLook
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Spanish police in action in Catalonia
Spanish National Police have been seizing ballot boxes and voting papers from Catalan polling stations.
Democracy at its finest
FP edit: Don’t send anything, just stay safe
therealswanson
Wales, one day...
EvolveCT9A
If you call this voting fairly...
punchunch
I have been on Barcelona today, and promoting these images as "the average" situation is being both unfair and exaggerated. But then again 1
punchunch
The use of force can never be proportionate to the use of democracy even if it's not on the Constitution
Skizzlesnap
No better way to make a vote illegitimate then to beat the voters and steal the polling boxes. Rather then just ignore the outcome.
keizka
Mm, problem is. Catalan govt was going for unilateral declaration of independence 48h after they get 50,00001% yes votes. Kind of effed up.
ButterfaceTaintClown
50,00001%?
Bord
Just a reminder that such pictures are often taken out of context by social media. Disclaimer: I know nothing about this specific situation.
JSBM
You are right, the violence are just a small part of what is happening. And honestly not the most frightening.
Jakedabrake
Catalonia, where they keep voting until the secessionist get the result they want. Big companies started leaving years ago. Bye bye economy.
Outmention
Exactly
DontLookAtMePenis
The first two are messed up but the third is just a game of swing the old lady, and they're tickling the last girls ear
RayTeruel
The ghost of Franco still lurks around...
countbassy
Nobody expects the Spanish...um uhhh...
JediEwok
Too soon.
ManualWindowedSubmarine
Too late.
NotTheMamaNotTheMama
californiadrought
Underrated comment of the day award goes to you good sir. Please take this upvote and may you have a jolly good day.
countbassy
Thank you kindly
TrustMeImABassist
*Catalan
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
no, the inquisition is still spanish. the catalans are the subject of the "inquisition".
goe421
Well, technically is stil Spanish since when this started about 10k police oficers where transfered to Catalonia from all over Spain
keizka
A referendum organised by ’yes’ side without minimum turnout requirement and no supermajority requirement.
unfortunateimplications
your alternative, it's organised by the 'no' side, minimum turnout meaning the dead/don't voters vote no? Because that sounds super fair.
Kalabatos
What a fucking idiot you must be. Jesus fuck
unfortunateimplications
insults huh? I stated what has been actually used before in a referendum where a 'minimum turnout' was needed. It wasn't fair or just. eejit
keizka
Montenegrin independence referendum.
JaBaDaBado
Imagine if California wanted to be independent from the USA.
Erieah
Just want to note that un second picture you can see police agents scolting the man out ti safety. Some protesters are also violent...
bookwormfromspain
*escorting, escolting sounds like "listen" in Catalan...
scarletswordfish
I imagine if any US state attempted to secede again the situation would look pretty similar.
KeeleonOhms
Why not let them? Remove all federal funding, let them be an island. Make them need passports to travel to another state.
cavett
That's a lot of owies and boo-boos.
KenGiffeyJr
istickmytongueinfansforfun
I just came to vote for freedom...i didn't expect the Spanish Inqusition.
GodEmperorLetoAtreidesII
Hide yo morenos...hide yo moriscos....
hankstrong
No one ever does.
jesusisherelookbusy
Kignite
FullSpeedAhead
My first reaction exactly.
jarlff
Spaniard here, I do not agree the police actions, but this people are trying to stop the police work, that is stopping an illegal referendum
RobJenkins
As any peaceful British hooligan knows those green bastard civil guard don't fuck about
AVeryNakedMoleRat
Damn, these riot cops be like "Imma beat grandma on the head and then sleep like a baby tonight."
themilkmancometh
yeah they learn't pretty fucking well last time British where in Spain not to take us lightly
TheBlackBear
themilkmancometh
http://68.media.tumblr.com/9828d043e17f1e133ce855b97b2629b2/tumblr_mevge8Du9q1rsb37po2_400.gif
fnordy
Sure, when those same hooligans aren't knocking over dustbins in Shaftesbury.
slickjim86
I could take em lol
slickjim86
It was a joke sheesh
Cuntraps
I got it fella.
AmyBernadettePenny
Deadpoolio7
“Well that was a much more dignified end for him”
Hovenbeet
Knivz
What the fuck is going on here
heeloo
Beating a dead fish
LasciviousHedgehog
They caught a fish, didn't know what to do and panicked.
Ohboyshit
Fish was asking for it
Cosmogonic
HIT THE BASS!
Thisishowitsgonnaend
Fuck yeahhhh!
yoggsaron1
It's from a show called Inbetweeners
Deadpoolio7
Neil.
NotABadLookingNarcissist
He's punching the fish right in the fish head while his friends watch, confused and a little disgusted.
MemeMcgee
HE KNOWS WHAT HE DID
IMayOrMayNotHaveTroubleFindingAndOrChoosingAUsername
"Democracy at its finest". ^^ is (also) the result of the Catalonians for not following... democracy. Two sides to the story.
dingleberriesm8
"Democracy is when another group of people makes decisions for you"
IMayOrMayNotHaveTroubleFindingAndOrChoosingAUsername
You're not wrong. Because that is exactly what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy is.
Maraak
Yup. Part of a democratic system is that it is a *system*. You have rules to follow, mandates to adhere to.
VeggieWombat
Until the rules are written so that you can't effect change.Then violent revolution is required. Democracy has limits, and can be nullified.
Maraak
But that is not the case here. The separatists doesn't have the political mandate, so they force illegal referendum that forces...
Maraak
...the Spanish Goverment to shut them down, which they then use to turn public opinion. It's manipulation using illegal means.
Maraak
Guess what, the rules are written so groups can't effect change that goes beyond their mandate to protect the other groups. Wolves & sheep.
VeggieWombat
So why not let them have what is basically a poll ?
Maraak
They don't have the mandate to call for it in the first place. The Catalanian parliament disagreed with the decision. That is democracy.
JSBM
A democratic system exist until we don't believe in it. International law make independance legitimate, despite the countries' laws.
IMayOrMayNotHaveTroubleFindingAndOrChoosingAUsername
Not to be a dick about it, but what international law(s) are higher than the constitution of a sovereign state?
JSBM
The right of self-determination. Basically, if a people want to govern itself, no other constitutions can stop it.
JSBM
Because they don't have autority over this new country. This is the reason why Africa is no longer full of colony, for exemple.
IMayOrMayNotHaveTroubleFindingAndOrChoosingAUsername
You have a point. Food for thought. However 140 characters is not the place to discuss t merits of revolution, so I'm going to call it a day
TheHelleri
Well that went south quickly.
Calasin
pretty sure catalonia is in the north- eastern part of spain
AmyBernadettePenny
2fligh2high
Haha goddamn man
KenGiffeyJr
The South will rise again
mercbrit
Is “vote” another word for “fight club” in Spanish or something?
DaltonDutton
Rule 1 of fight club... Dont talkabout fi cluub. I'm home officer take me drunk! ... Wtf howd i go from explaining fight club rules to time
DaltonDutton
Travel
DaltonDutton
Oh shit concrete and bubba.
AmyBernadettePenny
Very Messi.
Djsnek
Voté*
cheeseburgldurglar
It get real violent when it become vote time
Albarian
Is nice to create your own laws on your benefit like tirans and dictators like Cataluña politicians after doing.
rocketturttle
tbf, the spanish political class is pretty wretched in general
morphis
Since I see no voting in any of the images, it must be.
GodEmperorOfImgur
Generally? Yes.
KenGiffeyJr
First rule of vote club: You don't talk about vote club
mercbrit
Ha
DrClaww
First rule of Catalonia's Vote Club: Don't vote
ChaosandChaos
That's not from fight club, so it's okay.
SteveMND
I seem to recall the last time in US history we had a chunk of us trying to secede, it didn't go very smoothly either.
blackholevoid10011
It a good thing they didn't.
GodEmperorOfImgur
But the time before that, it went very well. What makes one secession okay and the other not okay? And how does the second time 1/2
SteveMND
As I said, history is written by the victor. That's what made ours okay: we won, and became a world leader, so it was retroactively 'right.'
GodEmperorOfImgur
So you would change your attitude if they won and call it okay? Nice to know where you stand if the Alt-right wins.
SteveMND
The hell are you talking about? We won the revolutionary war, so history records us as the good guys. If we had lost, we'd just be /1
GodEmperorOfImgur
being NOT okay, apply to Catalonia? 2/2
TheyCallMeMrFahrenheit
I think ultimately it depends on the cause itself. The South fought for slavery. Catalonia wants independence bc of annexation 400 years ago
Starcatcher1986
That didn't go "smoothly" either. Successions are generally messy affairs.
pres2pond
It is illegal for any region of Spain to seccede, the vote is illegal under current law and cannot be held in the first place.
Yorshy
That's the thing! If it's illegal just ignore it, don't try to beat all the catalans that want to have a say in their future.
AStegosaurus
That makes what the local government did illegal. There is no reason to go smash the civilians for what they believe is a legitimate vote.
weregonnatopthatwithalittlecremefraiche
The police fucked up bad, but your logic ids flawed. Just because they didn't make the vote, doesn't make it legal to vote.
weregonnatopthatwithalittlecremefraiche
It's like saying "we didn't plan the robbery, we just took the money"
AStegosaurus
It's not like that at all. It's like your boss telling you "Here's some free money" and his boss telling you "You can't have that".
AStegosaurus
The police could have acted earlier to prevent the vote from ever happening. There are two government bodies telling the civilians mutually
AStegosaurus
exclusive things. You do not go beat on the civilians for that.
BarrySnapplebottle
I'm sorry if this is ignorant but why did they want independence in the first place? Are they ignored or abused by the government in Madrid?
JSBM
They are a different people... They want to be able to govern themselves.
Outmention
They just want more privileges and tax exemptions.
ComicallyLongUsername
Catalonia got some autonomy during the Spanish Republic, which was brutally crushed by Franco. They've got good reason not to trust Madrid.
JoeyLock
What people have said here but also a form of nationalism, it often blinds people from other factors like economics and politics.
Traja01
They were a separate kingdom until 1137 and they want it again.
BarrySnapplebottle
It'd be crazy if every little kingdom in Europe had autonomy. WW1 redo
Nuttsy
Nah. With that level of fracturing, we'd never have enough inertia to get another World War rolling!
Traja01
I agree.
Wolfcaster
I hope they mention too that the people have been hurting and retaining the cops so they couldn't confiscate the ballot boxes 1/2
Wolfcaster
And ballot papers even before this happened because it's illegal and it's against the Spanish constitution. They did this without permission
JSBM
Under international laws, what they are doing is legitimate. They don't have to ask anyone permission.
JSBM
Is the USA not a real country because they didn't asked GB before their revolution?
RotationOfTheEarth
THEY WILL NEVER GET PERMISSION, this is a dictat- democracy ofc
Wolfcaster
They can get permission. They did once, and the NO won. Not all Cataluña wants independence. One guy said lets do this and this started.
schwabra1990
From what I know, the vote ist clearly illegal...if course the police would not let it happen
LordHottington
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=GI49YSCruwY
JSBM
You are thinking democracy wrong.
AmirGarib
That is stupid. They are afraid of the results giving them an argument. So they used the police force to brutally stop this vote
VoidofLostKnowledge
The vote is illegal because Spain refuse to give the region a vote on it's own fate. Us British gave Scotland the chance ffs, it's a right.
Outmention
It's the fate of the whole country that is being decided on that vote.
VoidofLostKnowledge
No it isn't. Every region doesn't have their own language. One independence vote in a region doesn't rip apart Spain.
VoidofLostKnowledge
The UK wouldn't have ceased to exist if Scotland left, it would have simply changed form. Spain has many regions.
GodEmperorOfImgur
So was the colonies leaving Britain, are you saying they were wrong to do so?
SciGuy
And they either fought wars or got permission to do leave, neither of which being an option here.
GodEmperorOfImgur
India kinda had to raise a stink before they "got permission".
SciGuy
Certainly. But Catalonia isn't even trying to do that much.
OldAceMerrillUsesDynamite
Well.. Canada didn't leave and I'd much rather live there than the U.S.
EADimgur
The difference being GB was a tyrannical imperial power, and in this case the vote is because of basically a greedy "nationalist" movement
GodEmperorOfImgur
Yeah, doing a flying drop kick on an elderly woman does not seem tyrannical at all.
SIRTOXIC13
The videos of the police beating down the FIREFIGHTERS PROTECTING THE VOTERS is harrowing.
FinallyBanez
https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohhwEPiDeP6fGgimA/giphy.gif
zippydee
Should have got out their water cannons.
SIRTOXIC13
No, that is assault against the police, which gives them grounds to heavily assault and maybe even kill you without repercussions.
Kignite
Source please I've only seen the on where the police unprovoked began beating back the crowd with batons
AhhhThisStinks
I think this is what the person was talking about. http://ind.pn/2yAzW4i
Shenhatesyou
That is might damn heroic. Almost made me shed a tear.
AhhhThisStinks
I know! The pic makes it seem so calm and symbolic, but in the video you see the intensity and (like you said) the heroism.
Kignite
Thanks!
AhhhThisStinks
No problem!
SIRTOXIC13
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/914473277443031041 does that show up?
Kignite
Yes it did and thank you you were right that was def chilling
SIRTOXIC13
Police taking potshots when the people aren't paying attention to them. Cowardly.
Noahbalboa82
Most Nations don't take kindly to secession.
OaksParcel
Canada and the UK did just fine with their referendums. Their calm, supportive response was likely a fact as to why both referendums failed.
OaksParcel
Factor*, whoops.
RamenAndBooze
i mean, i did get called a traitor multiple times because i am a Québec separatist, but the government weren't dicks about it, at least.
roflcopterLOL
British Parliament and those modelled on it have always been markedly different in their fairness/anti-tyrannicism. Was a big part in Brexit
orangecicle
I don't get why they care. Let them have Independence.
JoeyLock
"I don't get why they care" then maybe you should try understand why first.
Traja01
There's an answer to why they care I suggest a little research.
[deleted]
[deleted]
drewbixcube127
hmm, this is probably why you seem so ill informed.
Traja01
Then you have to rely on others for what you can do yourself. Seems like a bad idea.
StephanieWasTheTrueVillainOfLazyTown
It would have a major economic impact, for one.
orangecicle
And? Seems that government deserves some economic impact.
StephanieWasTheTrueVillainOfLazyTown
You have no idea what you're talking about. Everyone is affected by economic changes, not just the government.
[deleted]
[deleted]
orangecicle
'Your desire for autonomy hurts our economy sorry you can't leave'. Calm down 18th century Britain.
rocketturttle
1. you run out of country pretty quick, 2. historically you get a LOT more fights (and killing) over territory and resources
orangecicle
Maybe don't suck and people won't leave. Also let them fight. Not your problem anymore. Should have done that with the American south.
JoeyLock
Do you really think politics, nationalism and cultural identity aren't factors and the only factor is "Don't suck and people won't leave"?
orangecicle
Well sure that's a factor. I'm just saying generally if people are happily represented by a just government they don't want to make war.
SciGuy
The Confederacy fired first, so that was not exactly an option.
orangecicle
Sure it was. 'Yes yes Bubba, you're terribly scary. Bye bye have fun imploding'
orangecicle
'wanna leave? Cool bye bitch...' *winter, when they need help because no crops and no industry for back up* 'oops sorry you're not America'
orangecicle
The Confederacy started it because the union refused to let them leave... No refusal, no shots fired, yes? So. Wash your hands like Pilate
TheSpeakerOfTheHouse
Catalonia is finally going independent from Castille? This is good news indeed! What about the Aragonese, Basques, Leonese and Galicians?
EricFromAccounts
Damn! The Umayyads will surely take advantage of this; I'll switch to a diplomatic focus as soon as I've finished seducing my sisters
2fligh2high
In Leon & Aragon there a not these strong sentiments, if I am not mistaken.
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
yeah, that would be like bavaria splitting from Germany or something.
TheSpeakerOfTheHouse
Or Brittany splitting from France, I guess. *sad sigh*
CouldNotFindAWittyUsername
Well, Basque Country has a strong independentist feeling. If Catalonia successes in going independent, Basques will be no less
ComicallyLongUsername
Also the Walloons, Bretons, Scots, et al. This will have ramifications for secession movements across the continent.
Jukelo
Vlad is cackling with glee already
TrustMeImABassist
*Laughs in lusitanian*
wheresthebaby
Snowball effect if Catalonia leaves
[deleted]
[deleted]
PearlVonPeeps
Sorry to disappoint you but we don't want anything to do with Spain. From Spain no good wind and no good marriage (portuguese proverb).
TheSpeakerOfTheHouse
I was going to say something similar, but I would have sounded racist and I thought it would be better coming from a Portuguese person.
PearlVonPeeps
You do know that Catalunia is on the opposite side of the peninsula right? we are on one end and they're on the other.
amartrey
Well... Speaking as a Galician, I'm about to see what the hell happens with Cataluña first. We like to know the odds before we make our move
Torenico
Galicia?, which part of Galicia are you on!. I'm planning on going to Galicia in two years or so, my whole family comes from here.
amartrey
A Coruña! So beautiful, but there's a lot to see here, from the vineyards in Ribeira Sacra to Finisterre (the end of the earth). Come soon!
Torenico
Will do! My family roots are around Santiago de Compostela and Vigo!
amartrey
Both great! If you visit Vigo and have good weather, make sure you take a ferry to the Cíes islands and bathe in Rodas beach :)
sdfsdfsfccc
Just so long as you keep sending us that beef I support you.
amartrey
And the wine. Don't forget the wine.
Noodle4Lyf
i believe it was not legal
Pally01
Is a referendum not just a large-scale opinion poll?
JSBM
Yes and no. For forming a new country, it become the proof your people is behind you, and you can negociate for them.
ashmenon
I'm not sure using grandma as a jump rope ranks very highly on that scale.
wheresthebaby
Was no but still. Violence is no an answer
ThatAssholeOverThere
Spain has also just tried to block every vote for independence, so Catalonia decided to hold their own voting
supersomatic
Which then required intervention. Obviously. You can't simply vote for independence, that should be pretty obvious to people.
JSBM
Well, yes, you can. That's the basis of the right of self-determination. However it was obvious that Spain would try to stop them.
supersomatic
so you're saying I can vote to make tax fraud legal inside my own home, and then not pay taxes anymore? Well shit, thats cool.
JSBM
No...? Go read on the subject, you don't get it...
AxelBeingCivil
Ostensibly, you can. I mean, Britain just did, last year. Scotland attempted to before that.
supersomatic
wtf? Britain voted for independence? where the hell was I? and from who? They're already independent...
AxelBeingCivil
From the EU, mate. Brexit?
Ruvenss
You r right ,its forbidden under the constitution, but then it contradicts Art7 of EU Law, so its kind of illegal the fact that is illegal
ItaliansDoItBetterButIAmLazy
Many nations would fall into pieces i they allow it
ArtOfKarolMichalec
JoeyLock
Well it's not like the EU are very lenient when it comes to people wanting to break away from the EU itself, so thats pretty ironic.
Ruvenss
Actually the separatist of Catalunya has expressed already the wish to stay within the EU and Junker has already publicly accept the request
asimovfanatic
Pretty sure Spain will block them. Also, Juncker doesn't really have that power.
Ruvenss
Yes you are right, yet I think that the intentions here are very clear... and its not a split, polls are clear about that.
AMemoryOfShite
The EU don’t mind if you leave but you got to pay for what you have agreed to pay.
JoeyLock
I'm pretty sure after the Brexit result which the EU wasn't expecting, they won't just be easily letting other EU countries casually leave.
AMemoryOfShite
They aren’t trying to leave the EU. The EU isn’t the state here. Spain is the state. The Catalans will be in the EU no matter the outcome.
KateNotWinslet
Spanish government is doing the independence faction a huge favour with their disproportionate and brutal response to all this
Elroydb
Can't violently suppress it this time without that little distraction called Adolph Hitler
HoboStabWound
This is why America's founders wrote the Second Amendment. Governments can turn on the citizens.
znoopyz
Yes because introducing guns into Public protests would calm this situation right the fuck down.
slickjim86
This is why you don't give up ur guns ppl . Now these ppl are helpless instead of gaining independance
ArdentSlacker
It's a state trying to secede. They are asking for civil war. They are getting civil war. They cannot win this fight.
znoopyz
the referendum was meaningless they didn't have the constitutional right to hold this vote the police brutality only aided secessionists
ArdentSlacker
I'd say the referendum was an intentionally illegal act designed to provoke the spanish government into taking action. I would bet Putin 1+
ArdentSlacker
2/2 has backed some of these fuckers, just like Trump. Using open political processes and hired internet asshats to foment chaos. :(
jesuisjens
In the videos I have seen people don't seem to move away from the police that's using force, that's not a sign of "disproportionate force"
supersomatic
Well what are they supposed to do? When you illegally vote for independence you are an anarchist. Thats something to be proactive towards.
ShaunDreclin
Yes, the solution to people holding an illegal ballot is to beat them senseless
supersomatic
no the solution is to tell them to disperse.the solution to citizens refusing to comply with authoritative orders is to enforce those orders
VenerableInheritance
And then probably mindlessly chant Hails to the authoratative supreme god-given leader like it's 1984
lemmefixit
The independent faction is doing Spain a huge favor by uniting the rest of law-abiding Spanish citizens.
KateNotWinslet
United in oppression. Franco would've liked that
[deleted]
[deleted]
twofishtails
Can't tell Imgur that, unfortunately....
Cosmogonic
obviously!
WellIsThisTaken
Do you have any examples?
51CorgisInABar
Source?
ArthurMorgan1863
Yeah. And the worst part is im from Spain (not catalonia tho) and like 90% of the ppl il dont even want them to vote. Not democratic at all
CynicalPuss
*not from Spain* who should vote, tho? Only Catalonia or whole of Spain? Where is the line on Democracy?
DevilsArsehole
Wherever fascists say it is. Spain doesn't like it as they want to milk the Catalan cow.
Cosmogonic
the entire country should've been allowed to vote. that alone would've been a billion times more effective than police repression.
CynicalPuss
Curious, for people in Catalonia, what are poll numbers for secession?
Cosmogonic
i have no solid info. some claim it's 50/50.
Hartonics
I'm from Barcelona and you are right, the division got so much bigger because of the hate and violence comming from Spain.
yisuskrist
Si vas con una bandera de españa en cataluña seguro que te dicen cosas bonitas. Yo apoyo que voteis pero no filpes primin.
Yorshy
You should inform yourself. PLENTY of images of friends side by side with Catalan and Spanish flags. You have zero idea of what happens here
yisuskrist
And have you heard about school's director that didn't want to open to referendum and have been insulted and pressioned? 1/2
yisuskrist
They only reggeted because spanish gov said was ilegal and thy didn't want to risk themselves. I mean in both sides hate has been created.
Bollex
"hate and violence coming from Spain" are u f*cking kidding me? Hate is getting threats just for walking with a Spanish flag. Get it right
ForgotMyOtherAcct
To outsiders, the violence seems mostly one sided right now. Not saying it doesn't flow both ways, but one of these is the little guy
pinkertonhasanewkitten
The rest of Spain. You are in the same country...
BifuriousPanda
Time to start looking for outside interference in your 'news'. Catalonia has been threatening this for a long time. The question is why now?
SmolTenk
because brexit gives them a pecedence case to work with I guess.
AMemoryOfShite
You guess, you mean you know fuck all about it really. Brexit has nothing to do with Catalan independence.
relicen
If you think international politics has zero effect on national politics you are silly.
BifuriousPanda
A more apt comparison would be the Kurdish vote. Also, there was evidence of foreign interference in the leadup to the British referendum.
Albarian
And I'm from Spain and you are part of Spain. You cannot decide on your own, only Spain as a whole.
ForgotMyOtherAcct
Aka no succession anywhere ever?
wronglevahhh
Not necessarily. Quebec had a referendum in the 1990s about whether to leave Canada. The vote narrowly failed with 49% yes. 1/2
wronglevahhh
You can bet your ass that if the Canadian govt. tried to repress it or acted violently toward it that it would have passed. 2/2
InnocentValley
Scotland would also have voted differently if Britain had acted like this.
DevilsArsehole
No. Right to self determination where language, culture, and values might be different should be supported by everyone everywhere.
Jukelo
Everyone supports the catalans' right to self determination, as long as they're not trying to steal land belonging to the Spanish nation.
FindYourChillMate
Thats kinda unfair dont you think?
DomeGuy
Needing national consent to succeed is literally what the US civil war was fought over.
gordonisnext
Not needing it was what the US Revolution was fought over
DomeGuy
"Literally", like WW1 being fought over some duke getting shot. South only left bc they wanted slaves. No slavery would have meant no war.
FindYourChillMate
Yeh their reason was they wanted slaves...Catalonia just want to govern themselves.
Alitanyofcomplaints
So... What you're saying is that if people don't want to be apart of your government, they need to unless you don't want them?
happytreeleaf
I’m not from Spain, but yes, that’s how Nation States work. If not, every town, city, province would be setting up their own realm.
Alitanyofcomplaints
Sorry mate, it really isn't, while there is usually slight unrest, it takes a lot for a region to want independence, wanting (1/2)
ArtOfKarolMichalec
LITERALLY this.
MrDeadsr
Did you really expect a smart decision from the Spanish government
Albarian
I expect the government of Cataluña to follow the Law.
evilgriff
writingthroughtheblizzards
That's how they prepare for the inquisition
KenGiffeyJr
EricFromAccounts
I did NOT expect that!!
WhyEvenName
That's the point, it's supposed to be unexpected
undungubungu
I cant say that I unequivocally support Catalonian independence, but this is absolutely appaling treatment of what the spanish government1/2
[deleted]
[deleted]
undungubungu
I dont doubt that they have the right to secede, and in a perfect world I would wholeheartedly endorse it.
WGTBaal
the important word there is "international". In the case at hand it is an internal matter. (not that I agree with the police's actions!)
Mykron
Mind the "among nations" part before that, LEGALLY Catalunya is without a doubt Spanish, so this counts as an internal affair.
Mykron
The UN holds territorial integrity as essential (see Art. 2.1 / 2.4), Art. 2.7 also states the rule of non-interference in domestic affairs
downofathistle
So we step in when there is violence and corruption in the ME but when it's Europe, *shrug* que sera sera
downofathistle
("we" as in Europeans)
Mykron
actually authorize measures against a country "that threatens the peace" (art.39) though unilateral actions like Libya are still illegal ofc
Mykron
Well, breaking the law in one place doesn't change the law in another... Also there is the difference that the security council can 1/2
undungubungu
considers its own citizens. Reminds me of a fearful dictatorship. 2/2
eggmuffin
They've tried the legal way for decades. They've been sabotaged every step of the way, which is now the reason they force the issue.
Aerolfoz
They've been breaking up portests like this for at least 2-3 years now. And you're not allowed to film cops on duty.
Aerolfoz
Coincidentally passed in a time of police officers being violent to protesters....
AxelBeingCivil
Because it is afraid. This is a part of why Spain is one of the most anti-Britain EU members right now; fears of Catalonian independence.
ForgotMyOtherAcct
Spain does have a lot of practice.
undungubungu
Indeed it does.
chewybrian
Too soon...
massaka123
Hooooo...democracy at it's finest has also the right to defend itself from unconstitutional votes.
LordHottington
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=GI49YSCruwY
GodEmperorOfImgur
So the British bombing boston was justified?
Zedd990
democracy is best export product. my country is candidate for joining the EU, the laws they made us to use - they don't abide..
SciGuy
That can be a problem sometimes, yeah, but at the same time the perfect must not be made the enemy of the good.
MrDeadsr
Catalonië does have a good point
EricFromAccounts
I wonder how many millions would've died if Britain had taken that attitude to India, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Ireland and Africa after WWII.
supersomatic
... are you implying that millions DIDN'T die in those places because of Britain's attitude after WW2? Or would the number just be higher?
SciGuy
Britain has no constitution, so those votes could not have been unconstitutional.
AxelBeingCivil
Britain has laws, though, and so they could have been illegal. The government allowed them.
SciGuy
Right, but laws do not a constitution make. That's kind of the point of a constitution.
[deleted]
[deleted]
ForgotMyOtherAcct
So, Ireland then?
EricFromAccounts
So, it's okay for the Spanish government to crack as many civilian skulls as they please because the region is small and nearby?
[deleted]
[deleted]
EricFromAccounts
You literally said my analogy didn't work because of differences in geographic separation and in the smallness of the region.
RLelling
Catalonia is neither small, nor just a random "region within a country". It is an autonomous community within Spain, with its own President.
causality
Not to mention its own language and cultural history.
RLelling
Indeed. I just ran out of room due to imgur's silly restrictions :D
Traja01
I thought that had more to do with fiscal realities than any high-minded ideals about democracy and self-determination.
AxelBeingCivil
Compare also Quebec and Scotland. Both are economically useful to keep, neither involved violent beatings by police.
Traja01
I don't think they should assault civilians, but I don't think the vote should happen either.
AxelBeingCivil
Why not? It's a non-binding referendum. It is little more than a state-wide opinion poll.
EricFromAccounts
That would imply that Britain was a net payee to the subjects of the Empire and not the other way around.
Traja01
Not necessarily.
SmolTenk
That was the one the spanish consider illegitimate yes?
apaeter
no, I think the red color is just a sign they voted, like the finger dipped in ink in the middle east sometimes. :/
Outmention
I think all Spanish should vote. It is a national matter.
0Dusya
It's illegal. But this is 'cause of disinformation and the incompetence of Spanish politicians. There are also injured policemen. So sad.
madjackwastaken
It's illegal under the Spanish constitution - which had a 95% approval vote in Catalonia back in 1978.
tehPhreakmang
Which begs the question, if it's so illegitimate then why are they so forcefully trying to stop it if it don't count/matter
Jukelo
It's not just illegitimate, it's illegal. It's the police's job to stop illegal happenings.
tehPhreakmang
While technically true then ends don't really justify the means. People having a non-violent voice does not equal a violent response.
Mockingbirb
Yes, it's against the constitution, their supreme court decided against it. Sad that this happens in the EU... and very unneccessary, too.
Xelbair
dosen't excue them going full Franco on their ass.
ElecTech
Yes. Letting it go ahead would have left it with about as much legal standing as an opinion poll so this is worse than doing nothing.
AStegosaurus
It seems like just ignoring the decision would be a lot easier than sending people in to smash heads.
LosPer
Catalan is 1/5 of the Spanish economy...it would be like CA seceding. Spain is also poor, and it would cripple the country for generations
PerXX
This is the one every democratic nation considers illegitimate.
SnugglesaurusRex
It's also supported by Russian propagandists. Separatists are idiots doing the enemies work for them.
metalfoto
They got more autonomy earlier in 2006 via democracy. Later in 2010 spain central supreme court abolished those gains. So tried hard way
GenuineThought
Voting is a basic right in democracy. Voting cannot be illegal or claimed as illegitimate. The outcome of the voting on other hand can be.
ryanaf360
Having ballots until you get the "right" result and then acting on that sole one is hardly democratic.
downofathistle
As a Scottish person who voted No to independence, the Catalans should be allowed to vote & not fucking beaten up by Spanish police for it.
kleincalvin
A real democracy would allow a referendum... spain is apparently a democracy but just apparently...
kleincalvin
The dictator died calmly on his bed 40some years ago... his legacy is still visible... you disagree?? You get beaten up!!!
Vedar
See, us English aren't so bad after all. The worst we did was try and talk you out of independence.
Knillis
Are there any others?
universalcode
Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basques
Knillis
Referendums this weekend
professionalpootalker
Basques don't really want Independence now though, current spainish govt matches with their views
RPCd
No matter what they gave the separatists a huge push today.
kleincalvin
Fascist spain is like this... afraid of voting... loving police violence... digusting to see cop using their baton on old ladies
YeahIdHitThat
Activate the clone army!
ThePerfectTemperatureForHeresy
*the cata-clone army
RPCd
But but they are the Senate!
FurtiveGlancer
Yeah, would you be okay if California & Texas seceded ?
NurseyMcNursepants
Yep
tantallous
Oh please, can they? That would be amazing to not have to deal with the crazies in either of those states any more.
CantSleepInUnderwear
But then again florida keys seceded from the US, declared war, surrendered, and demanded 1billion in foreign aid.
CantSleepInUnderwear
They would be ok with a vote but call it bs, but if the local govt actually tried to secede, the military would show up.
TheHelleri
Correct. They may be right about that. But Catalans for the most part just want to be able to vote. Blocking it turns more to independence.
0Dusya
Both sides need to reconsider this situation. Catalans no longer even know what they are really fighting for...
LloydWaldo
Disagree. Blocking it demonstrates that treason will have consequences. Examples have to be made.
Ivain
Treason? how exactly is it treason to VOTE for if you want something or not? ACTING on it without support would be, yes, but voting?
LloydWaldo
Voting is acting. That's a political act. What distinguishes, for example, voting for secession and writing a Declaration of Independence?
Ivain
Very simple. The outcome of the vote is not set. It's a way to see if enough people agree with you.
Ivain
What censoring such a vote does is saying "we don't think you have the right to give your official opinion on this".
Ivain
in my opinion, a vote would also immediately be a way for people to express their opinion AGAINST independence.
dingleberriesm8
No they may not be right about that.
p75369
Technically, they are. In the sense that the constitution gives 100% of the power to central government on this issue. Still bullshit though
dingleberriesm8
Oh, they're legally in the right, sure, but so is the DPRK's government. Legality is only that, legality.
PoppinLochNessHopster
If they may not be, they may be.
dingleberriesm8
No, I reject the possibility that their decision to violently crush a people's struggle for independence is legitimate.
PoppinLochNessHopster
That wasn't what was being discussed, but whether or not the election was illegitimate.
Lapkin
And then when Crymea had a vote to join Russia - whole world declared it Illegal. (Waiting for downvotes)
Elkarlo77
The whole world declares the Catalonias Voting for illegal. The same goes for the Kurd Voting. Crymea Voting was the same.
Elkarlo77
And the same would be for a Californian Voting.
Hammerhead777
"Waiting for downvotes" For when you say something stupid but still want to feel smart when you get downvoted.
Lapkin
If you want an independancy from someone you either need a strong government (like the UK with Scots) or someone to protect your rights.
Lapkin
Crymea had the support, Catalonia hadn't, so the Spanish government do what everyone will do in their place - protect the country as a whole
Yanov
Well that's different, Crimea was under Russian occupation at the time, and foreign observers were actively prevented from overseeing it.
Lapkin
1/2Ofc it was. That was like the biggest misplay of Russia in modern history. However foreign countriea refused to send official observers.
Lapkin
2/2 it wasn't Russians who prevented them from comming. They just refused to come.
LindseyGrahamsGigolo
Weel i think if they vote, it will be overwhelmingly yes. That's why spanish authorities don't want them to vote.
JeyViking
Absolutly no, couple years ago it happened again and NO won with only 60% of votes.. Most ppl didnt go to vote because they consider it fake
battlestargingerpubes
Last census showed around 42% for independence.
staplesthegreat
It's actually going to be no, the Spanish government is blocking it on principle, rather than of fear of the outcome
thebratinthehat
Plus they do not want to loose that cash cow...
jesuisjens
Spanish authorities don't want them to vote because it's an illegal election , expected outcome doesn't affect this.
Dalaad
If it's illegal, why block it by beating the shit out of your citizens? Just invalidate the results after..
LindseyGrahamsGigolo
Yeah i understand. But even if illegal, yes vote will give great leverage to catalonia.
TanithRosenbaum
Which begs the question why it matters to authorities. If the result is irrelevant, they can just let people do it. No need for violence.
JeyViking
Cause the police let ppl do illegal things, ppl would be afraid to walk in the streets, and it will be an unsafe country again..
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
if there's no way to have a *legal* election ...
jesuisjens
Lol, imgur didn't like real news, sorry I told the truth guys
RedBlackF
Not really. More like Scotland about 50:50. But 80% of people regardless of their opinion about the independence want to vote.
cthulhaa
In this case it's unlikely to be as low as 50:50, they are very distinct from the rest of spain and don't even speak the same language
cptwott
i think you underestimate the Catalans. But how can we know for sure if they can't even vote?
RedBlackF
There were surveys before which had resulted these numbers. Since I could not find my original source, this one reports roughly the same 1/2
Albarian
Scotland has been a Kingdom for centuries. Cataluña never, only a Count in the Kingdom of Aragón.
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
they do have their own language, which is arguably more alive than scottish.
Genini
The last vote was 80% in favor of independence.
ArthurMorgan1863
Yoire right but very few ppl voted on that one. My guess is in reality its closer to 50:50
Bassaker
50/50 + the votes George Sorros smuggled in.
thetonestarr
Events like this one are only going to turn the tide, though
TheWombatStrikesAgain
It violates the constitution, so it is illegitimate. I mean, I support peoples' right to secede when they're caught in a country that (1)
TheWombatStrikesAgain
treats them like crap (like the Kurds in Turkey). But not the right to secede from a modern democracy which already gave them a great (2)
monkeymuffins
That's a really arbitrary place to draw the line for self-determination. What if they simply don't identify with the country?
TheWombatStrikesAgain
deal of autonomy, just because they don't want part of their money go to poorer regions. And that's what the Catalans are trying to do. (3)
downofathistle
Still not a good enough reason for police brutality. It's all very Franco-era and extremely concerning.
WarlockSniper
You know that the police did not start the riots and are mostly trying to regain control at this point right?
Erieah
Spanish here. The referendum is illegal, based on our constitution, but both sides made huge mistakes. No one is right here...
Nobody7713
The biggest mistake the police make by doing this is that they give the pro-independence side so much propaganda ammo.
Erieah
Yes, I agree on that. Just I feel like what the other party is doing is not as much on global news. Sometimes they are the ones rioting
kleincalvin
Those that beat up grannies are worse than peaceful voters... regardless of the law
skarsgard
Nobody cares, now go make some Paella and slaughter a bull.
ClosetEconomist
Bullfighting is illegal in Catalonia bruh.
skarsgard
I meant the rest of Spain, see my comment you replied to.
dilbobaggins
independence is also illegal, chad
Vedar
If the vote had no legal basis, why the need for violence on what would amount to no more than asking people to write down their opinion?
Erieah
Our goverment is a big shit Nos they're not fighting about independence anymore, they just want to prove whose dick os bigger...
0Dusya
I was wondering the same... I think they fear an unilateral declaration of independence that would arise the tension even more
garbunka
Basically to block a instituniolized movement that promotes an illegal action.
garbunka
I am not justifying the violence, I think that the intention of the government is to make the referendum results as weak as possible.
garbunka
By taking urns and dismantling electoral colleges. Keep in mind that the referendum conditions are very uncontrolled.
AMemoryOfShite
Didn’t the Americans have a tea party the British considered illegitimate...
LosPer
Show me "Taxation without representation" in Catalan?
AMemoryOfShite
So if you had representation in olde England you never would have liked to be independent? You even been to the region spoke to the people?
LosPer
LOL. I have been to the region, and have studied Spanish and spoken with the people. All I'm saying is the situations were different....
AMemoryOfShite
Of course they are. All independence causes are individual. Well done on your travels and using your words. What did that person tell you?
CantSleepInUnderwear
Yea but there is a lot distance involved and being second class citizens in that revolution. Catas dont have that distinction.
AMemoryOfShite
So you think because there isn’t an ocean between them then can’t stand up for what they as a collective want? Why do you object to them?
CantSleepInUnderwear
I object to the difference in analogy. Its more like a state trying to secede, though we would have made it past the vote stage.
CantSleepInUnderwear
Then the military would have rolled up.
CantSleepInUnderwear
In otherwords, its a piss poor comparison.
happytreeleaf
Don’t be dicks Catalan, and start some terror network m’kay? Follow the law of your land.
Rengii
George Washington was considered a terrorist by the English. He sure didn't follow the law of his land.
happytreeleaf
So the consensus is, terrorism is cool if it’s done by Europeans. We’ve learnt nothing.
orangecicle
The fuck? Freedom fighters in WWII Germany were considered terrorists. If the country is run by cunts blow the fuckers up
happytreeleaf
Brave talk. I hope you get your hand blown off by a home made pipe bomb, and not some child instead.
orangecicle
Lol what? Why would I have a pipe bomb or make one anywhere near civilization? Wtf kind of stupid thoughts have you got in your head?
happytreeleaf
Because you’re advocating terrorism as acceptable in this situation.
blackburrd
somepromethean
The thing about terrorists is that they're usually too much of pussies to go after hard targets, and instead target civvies.
orangecicle
I can agree with that. So be Guy Fawkes instead of ISIS.
happytreeleaf
That’s pretty much it.
Forosnai
Yes, but independence votes always kinda are, by definition.
ILikeCharmanderOk
The UK allowed Scotland a peaceful referendum on leaving Great Britain.
PangolinBan
By threatening with the fact that if they left the UK that'd also mean leaving the EU. When the Scots relented: Brexit! Trololololololol
ILikeCharmanderOk
Yeah that was a troll move lol
SoapyMammaryMasturbation
I mean, I know we're generally wankers, but the UK has shown quite often that it can actually be completely legitimate and peaceful. One...
SoapyMammaryMasturbation
...of the few things about my country I'm proud of.
JSBM
Not at all. Even if countries consider them illegals, the international laws make them totally legitimate: the right of self-determination.
Jukelo
I'm sure Catalans are entirely free to create their own nation, but the land belongs to the Spanish people through the Spanish state.
JSBM
Well, they were living on that land before the state. So... They only claim what is already their land.
LeadByBadExample
Not at all by definition. Some constitutions have guides to how they should be done. The EU has art. 50, for instance.
p75369
The problem with Spain's, is that it gives 100% of the power to central government. There's no way for Catalan to "legimately" vote.
LeadByBadExample
Their politicians can run on a platform of trying to change the constitution. It is a thing that can be done legally.
Mimsey
And then what? Convince the other elected officials to let Catalan leave?
p75369
That still gives the power to central though. The law won't be changed unless the politians support it and if they supported it,
HamboneHFY
We didn't see this shit in the UK with the Scottish independence referendum... Apparently Spain wasn't paying attention.
Hypohamish
Because they were allowed to have one. If we'd told them 'no' again, we may have seen a different outcome.
imnotthatblonde
the scottish stuff was more localised and low level, broken windows, damaged cars, signs set on fire
YerDa
Didn't see or hear anything like that in glasgow
imnotthatblonde
there were bits and peices in glasgow but was al minimally reported in favor of the far bigger headlines
HotelB
Really? I lived in Aberdeen during the referendum, and saw nothing that hostile or aggressive.
imnotthatblonde
central edinburgh well edinburgh in general where i am had issues, nothing large scale though just ooo yes/no car sticker, break window 1/2
HamboneHFY
Yup, and those guys were arrested. but the UK government's approach was to let it happen and respect the result. What happened? They stayed.
imnotthatblonde
plenty werent but at the same time it was very low level stuff, also not its over most scots have really lost interest in it
51CorgisInABar
Remind me how many independence efforts we now celebrate were considered illegal at the time?
Nafets6
I think you just won the argument
captjackvane
Pretty much all of them. Except the ones in Canada.
MedrengardMax
Three cheers for the peaceful acquisition of self-rule?
rAiSeHeLLnEaTcOrNBREAD
All of em
buffles
Do you have a running list or something you could share with us?
FormerYooper
America? Mexico? Puerto Rico? Latvia? Estonia? Lithuania? Poland (from Nazis)? Poland (from USSR)? East Germany (from USSR)? Israel?
buffles
None of those countries pre independence would have held a non binding pre independence vote. Would not have been allowed
FormerYooper
East Timor? Congo? Bangladesh? South Africa (from white control)? China (from nationalists)? USSR from Tsar? Ireland?
JSBM
Most of them are revolution, not a referendum...
buffles
Exactly. That was my point
NemoBarbarossa
Hate to correct you on that argument but East Germany never had to do an (illegal) vote to become independent from the USSR. 1/
NemoBarbarossa
It was founded with the support of the USSR and merged with Fed. Rep. Germany after going nearly bankrupt and being voted on by parliament.
alchemist12345
Do we celebrate the Crimean separation and turning over to Russia?
51CorgisInABar
No, but we celebrate Taiwan, the US, Israel, Pakistan, the Philippines...someone else linked a longer list. Your single data point is not
51CorgisInABar
representative of the whole.
Sprixxen
That wasn't an independence effort that was an annexation. Different things. Especially given the circumstances.
LeadByBadExample
Most of those were due to some kind of oppression. There is none here. Catalonia just want to keep from sharing their riches with the rest.
EmmettTurner
Is that how you word it? Socialism is immoral. Period.
LeadByBadExample
How is it immoral? Comma.
EmmettTurner
Because personal property and self divination are the very essence of all other rights. The fruits of your labor are yours. "Freedom." Duh.
kleincalvin
Which is legitimate... and you should add to the list that a big amount of spaniards are catalanophobes and do not respect catalan culture..
JSBM
That is a totally biaised version of the reality.
LeadByBadExample
Good thing, then, that you can provide a less biased version, right?
TheGreatandAlmightyNooblord
Should they not have the right to self determination?
LeadByBadExample
Within the confines of the law that they've imposed on themselves, sure. Other than that, what _should_ be allowed gets blurry, I think.
51CorgisInABar
So the American Revolution wasn't over taxation?
LeadByBadExample
Are you arguing that was the only reason, or that taxation can't be a form of oppression?
51CorgisInABar
Reread what I said. Did I say either of those things?
cogs
And a number of other complaints. Read the Declaration of Independence, they're itemized there.
51CorgisInABar
I'm not seeing anything in your statement that invalidates mine
heynongman4pres
Well it was about taxation without a vote in parliament i.e. representation. Not about taxes in general. Something conservatives miss.
DorthLous
Ah, so, Puerto Rico. Or DC. Or the other half colonies.
PangolinBan
Yup: you have to pay, but you don't get a say. Sounds suspiciously like oppression to me, even if mild. Was more to it anyway.