theSoulciologist
39454
1159
52
May 27, 2026 5:27 PM
theSoulciologist
39454
1159
52
evilspock
Eartha is still my favorite "Santa Baby" bar none, and catwoman, no disrespect to Julie Newmar.
powwerbottom
https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1dnQ4cXQ0MmRob3A4bjRtcnFjaDhoOGkzNGxkZzc5M2F0NXVzMmkzNCZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/1092DSKp46nB4c/200w.webp
Mstrswrd
Alright, but Helen was from Greece. Now we Geeks are Olive skinned, yes, but that's considered white nowadays. Like the whole War happened because Paris was Aphrodites favorite little boy, and helped him brainwash a married Greek woman into running away with him. Also, Greece idolated very white skin because that meant you didn't have to work the fields- Hera was literally called "Hera of the pale white arms" to emphasize her beauty. Helen, being the most beautiful woman in all Greece by 1/2
Mstrswrd
The standards of that time, would likely have been a very pale olive skinned person, closer to white then most. That being said, it doesn't fucking matter because it's a movie and she's a great actress. If they were trying to claim historical accuracy, sure, make a little noise if you must, but it's a heavily modified version of an ancient mythologized retelling of an even more ancient war. I won't get angry at what is effectively stylistic choices. Like with Heimdall in the marvel movies.
Causeitsmadeofmeat
Helen wasn't from Troy, she was taken to Troy from Sparta
Causeitsmadeofmeat
But apart from that, good post
readbackmonkey
She was also the 2nd best Catwoman. (Julie Newmar was the best).
happywalker
akafluffy
I liked Halle Barrie Catwoman, she was fantastic, she just couldn't save that movie
dmrynaski1776
Nobody could.
akafluffy
I dunno, a better writer could have saved it
dmrynaski1776
Perhaps.
The producers went in a different direction.
akafluffy
if a better writer couldn't convince the producers of a better movie, then it was a better producer that could have saved it
Javierpenaisoberynmartell
Helen was not from Troy though was she. I suppose you didn't read far enough. And even if she was Turkey isn't exactly Africa is it?
brandsilven
Helen was from Sparta, according to the mythology. And we're very fortunate to have artworks that have survived from that era (or close to it) to get an idea what the peoples of that region looked like. They really haven't changed that much over the last few thousand years, actually.
That said, this is just a movie. I don't get upset at white people playing people who weren't historically white, so this is more of the same. Not a big deal.
weidermeijer
“SHE’S… FROM… SPARTA!!!”
IStartConversationsAndThenGetBoredWithMyOwnPoint
Yeah, I have no issue with WOC actors playing a role but the history is wrong here. Trojan war was millennia before the Seljuk Turks migrated from the Asian steppe so Troy was never in "Turkey" and Helen was from the Hellenes. The ruins are and her bone dust I guess if she ever existed at all.
NothingPrince
This
MrAcurite
Helen's father was Zeus in the form of a swan and her mother was Leda, an Aetolian princess and a granddaughter of Ares (Ares' father being Zeus, meaning that he fucked his own great-granddaughter). Greeks aren't known for being super duper light skinned, but I'm gonna go ahead and say that because she's arguably both more than half god and just a tiny bit swan, Helen can be portrayed with whatever skin color's on the woman the casting director wants to go with.
gnomedeplume
The history of a fictional mythological figure?
IStartConversationsAndThenGetBoredWithMyOwnPoint
There are many examples of history of mythological people my friend; source: The Bible; Virgil; Stephen King; any non-fiction
brendino87
Its literally called "acting" lol people love being distracted from these epstein files
SarahTheEverlame
arumunus
If anyone gets a chance to listen to this interview on youtube I recommend it. It's got a kind of beauty to it.
I adore this woman.
DefenestrationAssistant
Post a comment like this and no link. Smh. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyN3eBRYcDo
arumunus
I'm sick. ): Thank you for picking up the slack stranger.
Vercury
The pain she expresses when talking about her romantic relationships with men is very relatable to me. Wanting to love, not getting in return what you put out, knowing even when it's good it isn't the kind of good that you need to thrive...and getting to an age where you sigh and feel there's nothing left to do but give up.
SarahTheEverlame
Oh man do I relate. Now I'm all sniffly.
Vercury
Hugs, darling. You are worthy of love and affection, and you should never have to compromise your values or your personhood in order to receive it.
super3dcow
God damn, thats so sad :(. She deserved to feel deep love
Moose79
Her and Cleopatra were described as being Greek, also Turkey is Eurasia
This is reminding of that line from that Cleopatra trailer were one lady was like "my grandma said she was black and dont let anyone tell you otherwise"
If they want to change a character for a movie, who cares, but saying dumb shit like this will never not being annoying
tsmckay
If I ever get a time machine, I'm going to go back and find a way to cast Eartha Kit as the little mermaid, Belle from Beauty and the Beast, and as many other disney princesses as possible. Just because.
georgejimmydoodle
It wouldn't take many 21st century dollars to finance a movie production 90 years ago. If you do get a time machine, I'll invest in your venture.
Cornflakes91
i have a 20 and half a sandwich, should get us 50 people for a couple months?
Polymathena
Snow White
Saxytimes
I kind of want to see what Terry Crews does with those roles... All of them
Megadestructo
https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1NjU4ZGgyNTFhZXByZjhoODM0MThxNjljbHhocmdvMnFmdGpnZHQwNSZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/7xH7uqdRLqwfu/200w.webp
Roguishpotato
Please ask her to reprise her role as Yzma in a live adaptation of The Emperor's New Groove.
2074red2074
I have some bad news for you...
shank1104
I never knew she was Yzma. Thanks for teaching me something.
OhIfIMust
Banzai51
I don't give a shit. But the studios aren't doing this because they believe in the actors/actresses. They do it to shield themselves from criticism.
ElBivo
I don't care who plays Helen, but we all realize she was not born in Turkey right?
DameDePiques
And the people in Turkey aren't black either. I mean, one can totally decide to discard historical accuracy in a movie, it's fine, but this kind of justification makes it worse.
Dalael
I have no dog in this fight but both sides in this argument are guilty. The same people outraged by this had no problem with Gods of Egypt.
The same people outraged by Gods of Egypt are okay with this.
Helen was Greek and no Egyptians had scottish accents.
Can we all just focus on the quality of the writting?
gnomedeplume
Only one side is trying to make this a culture war thing
Jinxer13
Imagine a world where Christians in US made an equally loud fuss anytime Christ was cast as pale white. Look at Jesus of Nazareth actor. The palest bluest eye individual. Why are we pretending bigots care about immersion in 2026. We know better by now.
TauntyMare
Dear lord, those are beautiful women.
TheOvy
The stage has been colorblind casting for many decades. Movies are merely late to the party.
huey9k
Many Many moons ago, in 5th grade, this pudgy white boy played Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King. The stage is fucking awesome BECAUSE it's a color blind environment.
ThadisJones
Way more historically plausible than every time a white guy has played Jesus Christ in a film
OobieDoobBenubi
I mean there's nothing plausible about Jesus Christ.
DavosSeaworthTheOnionKnight
There is a VERY good chance that Jesus did exist though?
OobieDoobBenubi
Of course. I even work with a guy called Jesus. I wasn't suggesting that it's a name that wasn't used by people.
My point was that every story surrounding him is myth, exaggerated or misattributed.
DavosSeaworthTheOnionKnight
No, I mean, its generally accepted historic fact that Jesus WAS a person who created the movement, and likely did get crucified on a cross. Of course that doesn't mean what his followers said afterwords was fully accurate or that it didn't get warped over the years
marsilies
I dunno, I find it pretty plausible that the status quo would sentence a guy to death for advocating for change.
RecurringNightmare
thats a stupid argument..."helen of troy" wasnt from troy, she was born in and "stolen" from greece, thats why the fucken troyan war happened...and turkish people are a wild mixture of european, arabian, central asian and other ethnicities, but surely no sub-saharan "black" african, so its wrong twice...but as greek mythology also claims that she actually hatched from an egg, and the movie is an artistic interpretation of the source material anyways, it really doesnt matter that much...
Awmph
Is Helen going to object?
OhIfIMust
MrOne2
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1dDNxZzF0b2N3MXhpbWc3anV0OWh6cTNubGFsZnk0M3ZmYzBjcDhkMyZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/mlAxj3CEwGBjBpLVsj/200w.webp
aShogunNamedMarcus
On the contrary, 30 Helens Agree
Ithinkimbetterthanyousometimes
hello fellow old timer
DreamingNotDead
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1eXpubzFyOHZ1OWo2NWVjOGduaGVhemd2bHdscjg4dHA3d2MycWhpbCZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/3oEjHKgnNny62dUQso/200w.webp
DigitalDruid255
I know 8 different guys named Dave....
tzahtman
It is a bit sad the extent to which we let right wing bigots dictate the discussions we're having.
L4dead2
They are both so dang beautiful
spangolio
more fake-ass outrage to rile up the morons
Epstein Files
blaghart
notice how everyone stopped talking about ICE executing US citizens even tho it's still happening?
spangolio
a fresh disaster every day to distract you from the ones the day before.
noWhiteHorseHereJustBatturuPrinsu
Torch the grass on the other side to make the own grass look greener. Instead of hiring a gardener or buying manure
TheMightyMollusk
The manure is off playing golf.
Toqom
We should call them the Israeli files as they ran the pedo system and use it to blackmail Trump
Margrave9000
Science has already proven through research that the first Europeans, and, in particular, the Britons and Scandinavians were Black. We can safely assume that the first Hellenes were as well.
fknbastard
Racism isn’t fake outrage, but it’s wrong and means they’re shitty people
akafluffy
yeah, but faux riling it up is fake, they don't actually care one way or the other about anything but money
reallybigdogtrappedinamansbody
The fake outrage comes from the Fox media outlets that profit from outrage. They stir up and monetise racism, and use it as a system of political control.
AbeFromanSausageKingOfChicago
It gets clicks on Fox News with their daily “we’re not racist, but….” Headlines.
akafluffy
I thought they were saying we're not racist butts
AbeFromanSausageKingOfChicago
Oh they are butts and racist.
Holinyx05
"we're being replaced! There's only 8 billion of us left!!!"
Fanner50
Does a play really count?
How about those plays the little rascals used to put on?
nevernotsure
A play by Orson Welles is the same as a fake little rascals play? Sure thing.
Fanner50
You don’t even know the play or how it was reviewed, but you just gotta slurp him.
Get over your celebrity worship.
nevernotsure
Sure thing. Lol. Get over yourself.
EstoyPoopis
The oblivious confident morons are the most pathetic. Buy a mirror, bud.
Dannyalcatraz
The 8/12/1950 performance in Frankfurt was reviewed by the U.S. military newspaper Stars and Stripes writer Win Fanning:
“Eartha Kitt, whose haunting rendition of The petite 22-year-old South Carolinian invariably draws applause by her singing of “Yo Creo Yo Tengo un Amor” (I Think I Have a Love), a song she wrote herself.”
Dannyalcatraz
“Her brief recital between the dramatic portions of the production is certainly worth the price of admission. Duke Ellington’s “Hungry Little Trouble” blends beautifully with the poetry of Faust, quite literally steals the show.”
kershaw
100% agree with the post. But on the title, do you consider Greeks people of color then?
chewybrian
SiberiaJeff
You guys are misinformed. Turkish people are far more similar to caucasian than african black. Even north african indigenous people are not "black". This actress looks typical Sub-Saharan, which is a long way from turkey
Dark0Strike
Turkish women are not the people of colour you think they are? I get what you're after but that title just is silly.
theSoulciologist
Love the outlook. Do you think Turkish immigrants would be welcomed into the mar a lago golf club as white?
DameDePiques
You shouldn't let the Mar-A-Lago crowd determine what's true, you know. Turkish people aren't black, and Helen was Greek anyway. Doesn't mean you can't cast a black actress, lots of movies ignore historical accuracy anyway, but don't try to justify it with half-assed arguments.
w0rkh0lic1
Vanessa Williams played Helen in the ‘97 Odyssey mini series with Armand Assante
marsilies
The racists were quieter back then. Everyone in power called them the bad guys, even the GOP dog-whistling to them. When Trump got elected despite being a racist piece of shit, all the other racists took it as a signal that they could come out of hiding and be their horrible selves in public again.
TheLostAccord
No she didn't. She played Calypso. The 97 Odyssey mini series didn't have Helen of Troy.
redsmerf
On the one hand, historically Helen of Troy would have been Greek (well, Spartan).
On the other hand... who cares? Oh right, pedantic history nerds. And racists.
Richek
historically, she didnt exist
SuperfluousMeh
The sad thing is you can't even have that pedantic discussion because it attracts the racists. I watched a history nerd complain about it because they're a history nerd and in the comments, of course, is all the racists.
cousteau
I mean, she looks nice af, which I guess is the primary requirement for the role.
Sonicschilidogs
Mi biggest gripe is that Helen is supposed to be so beautiful she launched a thousand ship, and the current actress is worth only 600 ships, at best.
scrumbles666
That line is from Doctor Faustus so you need apply 14th century Englishman conversion rates. Now 10 years earlier Queen Elizabeth caused the launch of 140 ships so if we multiply...
gnomedeplume
"But it said her face launched a thousand ships - "
"That's what you call a metaphor," said Rincewind.
"Lying," the sergeant explained, kindly.
Eric, Terry Pratchett
cousteau
How much is that adjusted for inflation? Keep in mind that the average ship nowadays is much bigger than what they used to be.
Sonicschilidogs
Damn, you right, I may have been misjudging the hotness of every girl I've encountered since middle school, and holding them up to an impossible beauty standard centered around my inability to adequately conceptualize a comparison between Spartan watercraft and modern vessels!!?!?!?
Mithi
Inflation? You don't have to inflate wooden ships!
procrastinatorman
Best thing is Helen of Troy was a fictional character. So she could be portrayed of any race. Her father was a Zeus AS A GOOSE! And she was born from an egg!!!
SnakuPlisskin
I read that like "as a goose" was a comparison, like "loose as a goose." How Zeus are you? I'm Zeus as a goose!
But yeah, then my brain actually caught up and was like "Zeus literally was a goose in the story, dumbass," and it all made much more sense.
Moose79
So in the movie, Gods of Egypt when they changed all the gods to white people thats okay with you because theyre fictional so who cares, right??
meganical
I believe there is a connection to a real woman but her story is definitely hyped and she was likely just given as an excuse and blamed for a war when she was not the real reason
gnomedeplume
Cast an actual goose as Helen and we're talking box office gold here
Someshithead241
Fictional does not mean completely devoid and detached from reality. Fiction still has context and its own internal logic that it must abide by.
Many fictional stories are based on the legends of a certain area, essentially taken as fact by those of that era and area, thus representing them.
So when creating them, you should simply treat it as if that is how it is. The real history of these people, plus the fictional bullshit for flavour, as if they are one in the same. Even when a story
mercyPandaRunner
So... do half-Anserinae-people look like greeks?
Someshithead241
Clearly you did not read to the end. An end which i left specifically for people like yourself.
mercyPandaRunner
Have you considered the more disturbing scenario? That I did read it and decided to write it anyways?
Someshithead241
That's not disturbing. It just shows you're a moron up your own ass.
Someshithead241
Exists in its own world, Lord of the Rings for example, many authors often base them off of real world locations or mythology still.
For instance, I played AC Valhalla recently and that is filled with mystical bullshit and what not, but the most jarring thing i experienced that totally and completely took me out of the experience, was hearing a very American accent come from a character who is a baseball reference. In England.
Someshithead241
Whether this applies to Helen of Troy or whatever is irrelevant, BTW. That's not my point.
My issue is entirely with the mindset of "fictional means we can do whatever we want!" Because I absolutely despise it, as it completely ignores internal logical consistency and suspension of disbelief
Someshithead241
If you want to argue or debate about the accuracy of this particular casting or the history of Helen of troy or whatever, then don't bother. Go do it with someone else.
stryhf
Trojans were as white as Cleopatra (which was a Hellenistic name for a damn good reason, her royal line wasn't native to Egypt).
Most excavations of Troy show Mycenaean origins, especially when it comes to their linguistics.
But like Hamilton, it doesn't matter as long as the story is both told and entertaining.
Someshithead241
Clearly you did not read to the end. An end which i left specifically for people like yourself.
BaldShaun
If it was a fictional character who was supposed to be born in Greece, from a Greek family, sure. But she was hatched from an egg - she's not human. Also, people are claiming it's wrong because this fictional creature is Greek. I'm pretty sure Mat Damon, Tom Holland, Anne Hathaway and Zendaya aren't Greek either. But those same people are not complaining about them. I wonder why....
Someshithead241
Clearly you did not read to the end. An end which i left specifically for people like yourself.
Floofaficionado
I don't remember these people complaining when Clash of the Titans had a mostly white cast. Also, these same people would not shut up about black dwarves in the LotR spinoff show, but were silent about the dwarven women not having beards. And don't forget with Kingdom Come Deliverance 2, these 'historical accuracy' guys were livid that black people were shown in medieval Bohemia. Believe it or not, but people have been traveling across the Mediterranean constantly for millenia.
Someshithead241
They were very much not silent about them not having beards.
Floofaficionado
Fair enough actually. I personally don't remember that. The people in my family circle who wouldn't shut up about black dwarves never talked about the lack of beards. But that is my specific experience.
Autittuderp
The demand to keep white washing history *and* people is bonkers
theSoulciologist
It's part of history long enough that we need to have anticipatory responses by now
WiiShaker
No shit.
Moose79
She was Greek tho, literally written by a Greek dude in a story about being Greek, that also took place in Greece in some parts, so wtf are you talking about
Also she isnt real so its not history, its just not being accurate to the source material
SergeyPrkl
Troy and all of the western modern turkey was Greek. They also had bright blue gray eyes but black hair. Caucasian. I don't mind Helen of Troy is portrayed by a black woman. As long as it is performed well. It isn't a history documentary. Like the Cleopatra series. She was known as a Hellenic Caucasian with blue gray eyes. Direct descendant Macedonian.
quepadre
The historical consensus on Cleopatra's appearance is a shrug. Nobody is really sure exactly who her direct antecedents were. Maybe she was light skinned, maybe not, historians genuinely don't know. Lots of sources on this out there.
SergeyPrkl
That is true, it is based on propabilities. What it was, was most likely. Nubian and other, equator/south of equator africa cultures was not prominent in northern africa, or middle east, based on known evidence. That is the thing we are talking here. For me I'm ok with an african black actress. For a real documentary, i'd prefer some egyptian/greek/cyprian/persian/levant based people, there are even plenty of blue eyed people availlable.. Then peole were extremely xenophobic too. genocide was ok
Altqwenta
Do you mean Helen was not white? Let me explain myself: it is kind of irrelevant, she didn't exist. However, Homer and Ionian writers were a bit chauvinists. The greek culture survived that period in history because of that attitude. Then you can say they were xenofobes. Yes, they were not white, but also they were not black. Again, the Iliad is pure fantasy about how superior greeks were. So is a bit strange that helen is potrayed by a black woman, regardless of how talented she is.
kaoticgirl
Xenofobes.
Altqwenta
haha yes, its hard to type in public transportation.
EstoyPoopis
See, this is what I don't understand. You said it, she was not imagined white, nor black. Why is it "a bit strange" when a black woman plays her, but perfectly ok when a white woman does. Neither of them is the "correct" hue, so at which hues do we start calling it "a bit strange"? Which is the range of hues at which the portrayal is just -too- inaccurate? Let me take a wild guess and say it's when the line moves towards the darker hues.
It's arbitrary.
And the arbiter is racism.
Altqwenta
Lmao. Have you read my replies? I mean, you don't have to, but I specifically called ancient greece racist and xenophobe. Homer was not a philosopher but him cemented the greek identity, along other pre Thales of miletus writers, arguing they were the epitome of civilization, even Aristotle saidt they were born to rule unlike other races. Someone else explained how fairskin was a symbol of social status. For me, the Iliad was to ancient greeks what Tristan und Isolde was to nazi germans.
SalmonTheWise
By that logic the movie should be cast only with actors of Greek descent. And they better get a real Cyclops to play Polyphemus.
Altqwenta
What? Did you miss the part avout being greek supremacy fantasy? Yeshua from Nazareth is another fantasy widley known, and as far as I know, there is a big problem potraying him white with blue eyes. I don't know why casting just greek actors would be a problem. What about adapting an Inca legend to a movie with non peruvian actors? But whaterever, your argument about the cyclops is extremly smart.
SalmonTheWise
Which part of Greek supremacy fantasy involves casting literal barbarians as Greek heroes? If someone has a problem with Lupita Nyong'o, but doesn't have the same problem with Matt Damon, Tom Holland and everyone else in that movie then it's racism not some desire for authenticity.
Autittuderp
Women existed in that time and place. They were not white.
That was my point...media, drawings over time white wash...then when someone with a closer representation pops to the top those who bought the wash get pissy.
Spudd86
They pretty much were. Do you not know what Greeks look like?
2074red2074
Most of the women in that time and place WERE white, probably with a bit of African ancestry but still white. And beauty standards favored fair skin because it meant you were rich enough to not do work outside. Obviously we can't go talk to them, but Greeks of the time almost certainly imagined her as being white.
acme64
"with a bit of African..." Jim crow intensifies..
SergeyPrkl
Like Cleopatra was of Macedonian, maybe Persian heritage. Both that are Caucasian, ie "white" , and plenty of blue eyed people. Not southern African.
Emrys12
Eh, it's entirely possible the war of troy really happened. But the timeline from homers works to that is about a thousand years, so even for them it was just a story to which they then ofc added mythological stuff as well because imagination
NinjablazerZero
How is it strange? As you said yourself, they were not white. The fact that she is being protrayed by a non-white actress shouldn't evoke a reaction at all. The fact that you think it is strange is what is actually strange. To have a black actress portray a fictional character that never existed shouldn't be strange. To find such a thing to be strange is.
Altqwenta
Lol. You missed the point about greeks not being black. And the part where I said they were xenofobes. And also the part about ionians and their identity. If you read about ancient greeks, you will find how their literature was how they immortalized their culture, their "superiority", and in this case, how they funded their identity. I understand if a local play potraits characters in a non "accurate" way, but this is not a local play.
acme64
How is this not a local play? A group primarily from California took a story from halfway across the world and produced their own interpretation of it
mrsdowneyjr
Because it's sourced from a much larger pool of actors. Lupita herself was born in Mexico, Matt is from Boston. That's not local
EstoyPoopis
LOL, dude, cmon, Matt Damon? Tom Holland? Pattinson? Those are accurate? When the colour bar moves to the pale side, still accurate, but when it goes to the black side, wow wow wow, wait a minute, that's "non accurate".
I doubt you are a racist, but the fact that you dont see the double standards baffles me. You want to stick by your point of the greeks being xenophobes to glorify accuracy, then you gotta swing both ways, bud.
Altqwenta
When did I say they were the "right choice"? The post was about a black woman as Helen. I think the casting has more to do with creating polemic and keeping people talking about a product. If hollywood or whoever is doing this cared about not being racists or being inclusive, they could produce a film about african epics. Its like the tv series about european monarchies where they put black actors potraying european nobles.
Emrys12
Also the trojans were not greek
LongCommentChainAppreciator
They might've been, they might not have been, it is under debate - They were heavily influenced by the Greeks at the least, according to their description in the Illiad/ Odyssey
Emrys12
Troy was founded by dardanians who were illyrian and non greek. They were allies of pelasgians and the definition is kinda murky, illyrians mightve been same as pelasgians since their definitions are close and pelasgians mentions just disappear.
Anyway the mycenean greek(when ppl say Sparta, Ancient Greece) invaded and occupied the region of current greece after natural disasters happened and the minoans(original g)mostly died and pelasgians/illyrians had been there and were then neighbors.
Emrys12
After they settle they invade Troy etc.. later they settle troy so troy does become greek at some point.
00110001001001111010000110110110011
Helen was. She was Helen of Sparta before Paris abducted her.
Emrys12
Ah okay, i thought i was confusing her. She was probably spartan then. But the trojans were founded by dardanians who were illyrian and non greek. The mycenean greek invaded and occupied the region of current greece after natural disasters happened and the minoans mostly died and pelasgians/illyrians had been there and were then neighbors.