CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
114592
5817
217
(I think this original is from u/Powerfullwoman20)
Jul 5, 2021 5:40 PM
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
114592
5817
217
(I think this original is from u/Powerfullwoman20)
YourmomusesTinder
Exactly, my thought has always been pay taxes or give away an equal or greater amount to the community, in any capacity.
carrotsonfire
Are you sure you wanna do that? Because then they don't even have to pretend they're non-political. You think it's bad now? Oh boy.
HappyDude2
So what you saying is : we should tax every non-profit organization?
bernthevote
Yes.
Andalite
I mean, I get what you’re saying, but my tax refund doesn’t really help me much when my bills didn’t get paid because I got too many taxes
Andalite
taken out. If it happened each month, yeah, sure, that’s better for everyone involved. Unfortunately, the agencies and companies I’d owe
Andalite
money to wouldn’t accept payments a year late and certainly not without interest. So, while churches should be taxed, this really isn’t the
Andalite
counter that people seem to think it is.
thundercactus
I feel like just adding $5bn to the $12bn IRS budget would also result in an extra $71bn per year lol
Imapseudonym
Churches are classified as a 501c (3) charity. Can't tax them without taxing all charities.
bernthevote
That seems reasonable.
LordHosk
Cool, just change the tax code, to tax all non-profits and charities. Or is it only churches you want to tax because you disagree with them?
bernthevote
I’m sure there are some people who are fed up with politically affiliated churches, but most would say to just change the tax code period.
SpecialOedipus
I'd bet half the churches don't even general enough revenue to pay their property taxes
SpecialOedipus
Generate*
AgainstMethod
Exactly. Let the IRS close a few hundred rural churches and see how America feels about it.
edzzup
Typical government-worshipping Imgur commenters would see that as a great triumph.
bernthevote
That still leaves the other half.
AgainstMethod
It does still leave the half that suddenly have a tax burden they can't pay.
SpecialOedipus
Yea the half that arguably does good for the community, I don't even believe in god but I do recognize the good churches do
SpecialOedipus
Yes the half that generates ridiculous amounts and does nothing for the community.
krapmyself
I always laugh when I see this argument. People who want to tax churches don't see the long term negative effects.
brianterrel
Which are...?
IrvineHazelfield
if you start taxing churches, they are going to want to feel represented (no taxation without representation, amiright?) this would be 1/2
IrvineHazelfield
bad because the deal right now, being nonprofit, is that the organiztions themselves cant "meaningly influence politics". 2/2
loneCartoonVillain
Yep, think of the Billions of dollars that would be spent on ads for "the lords candidate".
loneCartoonVillain
Or the religious laws that will pass when every megachurch buys a politician.
MechaNinja
I really don't give a shit about churches. We need to tax billionaires.
Sechran
Even the skeeviest of megachurches can't hold a match to the volcanic inferno of international megacorps. 1 Bezos > 3,300 Olstiens
Thehoffmiester
Churches should have transparency for what they do with there money. Ik some do but that should be a regular thing
bernthevote
It’s not required by the federal govt in the us. So a lot of churches generally aren’t charitable, but instead only cater to their members.
LoveTriscuit
It’s amazing how many non profit tax law experts we have on Imgur. It’s almost like “tax churches” is actually more complicated.
imperfectregulator
Imgur isn’t very good at anything more complicated then “other guys bad, we good”
twozerooz
Not really. Just treat them all under the same laws as other non profits. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll be taxed.
LoveTriscuit
Not to be a jerk but you have no idea the history of this. There is a can of worms with implications you haven’t considered and won’t like.
twozerooz
There really isn't. It's politically charged, but simply removing religious activities from the class of public charities is easy.
Tarmaccian
So you're going to tax MY ritualistic drunken orgy, but not HIS sermon-accompanied soup kitchen? That sounds like persecution to me…
LoveTriscuit
Love how your argument is “nuh uh”. Hope you like having even more mega church involvement in government and church funded political ads
twozerooz
Actually that's literally your only argument. I provided substance, you didn't. The projection is humorous though.
AluminiumFalcon
How about we focus on getting corporations and the rich to pay their taxes first. And don't get me wrong, I'm all for churches paying too
donsterkay
churches are just corporations hiding behind a collar.
WannaHaveACatch
The issue with this all or nothing approach is that it would hurt a majority of religious organizations in order to get at the few bad ones
G0NZILLA
A few bad ones? lol 80% of the churches are all grifters who don't bother to help the poor.
Ioftenpretendtobeapotato
Source?
WannaHaveACatch
Most religious organizations like synagogues, churches, mosques, temples, etc, run on bare minimum and need the tax free status to survive.
PuzzledCompletely
The one I attend included. Tax them all.
paeches
So continue to operate country in deficit for the few that want to believe? Why are separate religions more important than everyone else?
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
Are you one of the people who is concerned about the Biden tax?
WannaHaveACatch
No, I’m in favor of the Biden tax plan. I have specific insight into the world of religious organizations, and their politics/finances 1/
WannaHaveACatch
Since my mother is a rabbi and I grew up a temple brat. There are bad actors like the evangelist and mega churches, but many are small 2/
WannaHaveACatch
Communities with older populations who are barely getting by going month to month. We should be focusing on making it more difficult to 2/
JustABookworm
Biden tax specifies people earning over 400k a year. Here, it just says to tax the churches. If you really want to mock people, being vague
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
You understand what I mean. Small churches should not be afraid of them being taxed, because of their low(er) financial state.
JustABookworm
with your position isn't a good idea. Be nicer to people, and they'll understand you better :)
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
I'm not being nasty. And I'm trying to tell the story in 140 chars.
TankTrain
I think the reason why they dont get taxed is because donations are already taxed. Someone earns the money and pays tax on it. They then
TankTrain
donate money to the church. So if you were to tax the church on money that has been donated, you're taxing the money twice. And you cant do
TankTrain
that. If however the church earns its own money from somewhere else, then yes, they should pay the full amount of tax on that.
GaleForceWin
I see this idea on Imgur all the time, yet no one discusses WHY religion is tax exempt. You want to tax churches? Then you have to accept 1/
GaleForceWin
Their input into political matters. Currently, they do interfere, but we can tell them they shouldn't. Why take that power away?
DesolateMirror
But how will the evangelical pastor have 12 jets and 6 mansions?
JalapenYoBizness
Like any other billionaire.
drunkbs
Audio on
joleeen
It’s a residential center not a home. And a heavenly gospel conveyance, not a “jet” as you refer to it.
duramater1
He writes it off to “feed the poor”
90sWereGold
Still can. Just add it to his w2
DulseEater
The needs of the great exceeds the needs of all.
KevlarKobra
They will still be able to afford that.
Kinkajoo
They can ask god for those things ?
xanius
You've obviously never seen Joel osteen preach when he wants an upgrade. He claims god told him he needs it and the church needs to provide
xanius
He's a snake oil salesman and conman. He doesn't believe a word of what he preaches.
dreamsnottheresultofwhatweeat
If you tax billionaire 95% of their annual income, they still have $50M.
TheCuratingCurator
DigYourselfBaby
Euchre
Isn't it nice that you can't easily use the current Pope as an example?
DigYourselfBaby
He's different from the others for sure.
Euchre
I don't agree with a lot of the policies he supports, but at least he takes his financial modesty seriously.
DigYourselfBaby
Not enough of a step to endear me to the catholic church, but with him at least there's HOPE for an apology on residential schools.
jargonmon
The great majority of church's pastors pay income taxes and all employees pay income taxes. How megas get away with it I dunno.
lucivjov
.. the same tax incentives that non-christian millionaires and billionaires get away with. It’s all one cause at the end!!
IDontKnowWhatToDoAnymoreAndImTired
The pastor usually doesn't have a large "income": the church owns their mansions and things, and they simply live there all expenses paid.
WowSoSparkly
thisappisajoke
This dude is the Satan they talk about.
burningeagle
Salpinus
From the snippets I've seen of that guy - he's evil. Pure evil
Fuckme721
Oh yeah. Very definitely.
OhIfIMust
mtdad
Good Luck. Income after expenses, which is what corporations pay tax on, will amount to zero for most churches.
bernthevote
But a higher level of accountability will become normal, and some churches will end up paying. I’m all for that.
foreverinchains
I wouldn't have an issue with churches being tax-exempt if they were held to the same standards as other non-profit organizations.
Simonator
You mean non-prophet organisations!
salunatics
swanglemydangle
Like not raping children?
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
Or killing them and getting away with it!
UncleAce
This. This so much
KissMyGrits76
Churches will never get taxed. Politics and religion have been used for millennia to control people, so why change now?
AgainstMethod
You might be unpleasantly surprised about those standards, buddy.
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
Same standards is good.
keystotheairlock
Any standards would be good.
UpgreyeddtheThird
They are. They are 501(c)(3)’s.
foreverinchains
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)(3)_organization If you read this, you'll notice there are different requirements for...
foreverinchains
...religious and non-religious organizations.
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
The standards could be reevaluated?
ILogInToUpvote
"No part of the activities or the net earnings can unfairly benefit any director, officer, or any private individual."
ILogInToUpvote
Seems like megachurches with millionaire pastors should be taxed quite heavily.
UpgreyeddtheThird
Agreed.
LoveTriscuit
“Unfairly” is the issue here. It gets sticky because the government is going to have to define what makes particular things religious
Mgxr44
In what ways are they not?
b1candy2
Non profits still have to submit financial records. Churches do not. Black hole money pit.
foreverinchains
Why don't you take a minute and look it up?
Mgxr44
Generally when someone replies like that… I assume they are completely talking out of their ass.
foreverinchains
Here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)(3)_organization under transparency.
AgainstMethod
I concur with what @Mgxr44 said. Answer the question.
foreverinchains
All of two seconds on Google. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)(3)_organization
Mgxr44
All I see is it saying churches have to jump through MORE hoops… am I missing something?
WarKittyKat
None of that article actually answers the question though.
AgainstMethod
That doesn't answer the question either.
LeftRightThere
I worked at a Mercedes dealer many years ago. People would lease their cars under the church.
CurseUrSuddenButInevitableBetrayal
Cue European history...There's a reason countless people died so we could separated church and state.
ChukclesNuts
When folks post about this they need to remember that billion dollar businesses would pay trillions in taxes
YourIceCreamMan
That's EXACTLY what "Rich People" do They work withing the tax LAWS yet you think they're stealing. Blame decades of do-nothing politicians
lake365
Here is what I would worry about. Once some churches start paying taxes they will will become PACs from hell. Trust me on this. I’m clergy
bernthevote
They already are…
lake365
I had the same thought. However they will be more motivated if they pay taxes. Separation of church and state is a good thing.
ShipOfFate
Here is a helpful pro/con list https://churchesandtaxes.procon.org/
Chair5768
That's a terrible list, they don't even acknowledge the existence of progressive taxation.
bernthevote
This debate has always hidden behind the ‘most churches can barely keep the lights on’ bs. They won’t acknowledge income disparities &
bernthevote
Realistic taxation.
truerevelence
Nobody's here to think critically theyre here to be loud, opinionated, and receive praise for partisan signaling Take your nuance elsewhere.
truerevelence
/s
fendeele
95% of churches are barely getting by but thanks to memes we all think theyre sailing around in mega yachts. calm your tits folks
BulletSponge7
Should we tax groups like teachers unions, NOW & BLM too or do you just want to tax people you don't like?
donsterkay
When the unions start having private jets, art collections worth millions, get away with pedo behavior, sure.
BulletSponge7
The National Education Association (teachers union) has $400,792,572 in assets & its President makes $394,908/yr. Think she flies coach?
donsterkay
That number is misleading. It is the combined retirement for a shit load of teachers.
bernthevote
Wouldn’t it be just the same as taxing people & corporations? The small guys pay little to nothing & the big guys are taxed accordingly too?
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
Also, teachers need to earn more and spend less on stuff to be used in class.
BulletSponge7
Thats what their unions are for, negotiating their contracts, but they spend time and money lobbying politicians.
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
Should they be spending money on lobbying politicians? Isn't that what's the cause of companies paying too little tax?
eadanke
We do tax union dues(since 2018), and if a union or BLM had property to tax, it would be taxed. Should that be stopped?
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
What is wrong with taxing everyone?
BulletSponge7
1) It would slash contributions to charites. 2) Money donated has already been taxed as income. 3)Taxing churches violates the 1st amendment
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
Contributions are used as means to pay less taxes. So the total sum of taxes lowers.
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
If I buy gasoline with my money, that money is also already taxed.
BulletSponge7
Imagine how much better your life would be if the government didn't take so much of your money by taxing everything they can think of.
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
It would. I pay 56% taxes, companies in Belgium pay 20%.
hackermakercyborg
Wouldn’t this make them an organization that has the right to vote? I’m sure there are some repercussions to this concept.
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
https://churchesandtaxes.procon.org/ This link can help.
bernthevote
No organization has the right to vote, only citizens do. & losing their tax exempt status due to political affiliations hasn’t stopped or
bernthevote
Slowed them down. Most aren’t held accountable strictly because of the ‘separation of church & state’ argument.
jrbaconchee
I'd rather nonprofit agencies feed the poor because then the help doesn't come with a bible tract.
SortOfAnEngineerNow
Agreed but we live in a world with religion so it would help
Illithidbane
Like the religious shelters that reject gay people that need sheltering?
jobbybob
How about the govt looks after the most needy. That way there is less room for exploitation of tax etc. Directly or indirectly.
nodekio
I rather not have any need for non profit. Government should be responsible to tax and fix poverty.
vinny8boberano
After reading about some of the tactics for "charity" and "feeding the hungry" used by the Church during the Great Famine in Ireland...yeah.
jixathejinx
When I was homeless, I quickly discovered which foodbank/charity required "bibleslapping" in order to receive assistance. I avoided those.
AgainstMethod
*Lots* of NPO's are religious organizations.
OrangeFlavours
Isn't that exactly why churches are... nonprofits?
maincarrot
What's a tract? Our church supplies food and serves it at a building in town down where there are lots of homeless for free and no catches.
NemoVi113
The church is a nonprofit.
KaraokeLemur
I'd rather churches be nonprofit. Seeing a priest get rich by priesting really grinds my gears, gets my goat, and other metaphors.
GerberLegalTeam
Yeah like in south park where the Ethiopians had to attend church before getting food.
VaultGirl69
If nonprofits could fill the gaps of a sociopathic society, these problems would be solved. People tithe more than they donate.
Leithoa
Churches are nonprofits. 501(c)3 covers churches, libraries, schools, sports clubs, soup kitchens, &c
SerenePrincess013
Then their leadership shouldn't be asking for money every Sunday, & have enough left over to buy mansions & planes.
physicsisalwaysrelevant
Those churches are very public, but fairly rare.
Leithoa
Thats a separate issue. Also 'nonprofit' doesn't mean you can't have assets or high revenue. The NFL was nonprofit until recently.
PugDogMan
But chict tracts are the best!
Nick3571
Aren’t most non-profits faith-based or congregations?
Iloveanonymityandilovebeingnoticed
When I was in hs, my church youth choir went around different places (mostly othar churches) doing our musical. One was a shelter that >
Iloveanonymityandilovebeingnoticed
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
That is also correct. (or doesn't come with an unmarked grave)
TestSubject013
This ^^
Titty5prinkles
? my brother in law doesn't know his parents names cause of that shit.
Nerdyohyoumeanawesome
Not being rude, can you explain what you mean?
Titty5prinkles
from the 1880s right uo till late 1990s there were schools operated by several churches in Canada that would abduct or kidnap Aboriginal1/2
Titty5prinkles
2/2 children and force them to learn and only use English, dress like whites and rape and beat them until they were broken
Nerdyohyoumeanawesome
Oh gosh I feel like an idiot. I didn't realize that's what you were referring to.
jiynxed
My wife's church keeps their ministry and social charity work very firmly separate. No tracts, no Jesus, just compassion.
ProppaGanda
Yea, yea. And fascist would just set up soup kitchens, just compassion in the name of the national unity.
BarbedWireCatheter
Its interesting how “no Jesus” is pretty much how actual Jesus would have done it
QuestionTwice
The way a real Christian should be. Ministering through actions and being a good person. Feeding the poor, helping the sick.
XanderCorsaj
Churches in my area offer food and support for anyone that needs it: homelessness, poverty, addiction, abuse etc w/spiritual aid as a choice
transientmind
The one next to my apartment block does the same, weekly, far as I can tell. Went there once when they were open, to rent a car park space.
jiynxed
They also refuse any city/county funding for things like their food bank because it makes it harder to help - by being fully independent
Illithidbane
Can we get rid of Joel Osteen / Creflo Dollar / etc and have a hundred more of this church?
sadcoyote
it’s important to realize that this is not why they don’t accept that help. in order to obfuscate their books and not have to fully comply
sadcoyote
with 501(3)c laws. churches don’t like showing their numbers. tax the hell of of them. all of them.
jiynxed
These guys have their books open not just to membership but the general public. Gets emailed to anyone on the list every quarter.
jiynxed
They don't like taking city money because the city will require them to track who gets aid and verify addresses.
jiynxed
They can just simply give food to people without any identification or tracking or burden of proof of address etc.
PJsnaks
What faith is it? Just curious
jiynxed
Christian? I think you might mean denomination, which isn't totally accurate - that particular church is part of united church of christ.
jrbaconchee
Your church is doin' it right and that's how it should be done
Dinos91
As an atheist, Amen brother
PWBoiler
Same here. But that doesn’t fit the tidy little “all religion bad” package some people have decided on.
Azkle
All religion is bad. Not all religious people are bad. Stop being a whiny baby.
Kbantar
All religions are bad. But not all religious people are bad.
Elhombremacabro
I don't think all religious people are bad, but religion was the cause of so many suffering that's difficult to defend.
Iwannaseeit
Didn't South Park have an episode on this? I'd take a stance more like theirs tbh. People here get way too focused on one type being bad
camobranson
So was communism but plenty of people are fine with that.
Elhombremacabro
From a citizen from a country who had an USA backed coup followed by a dictatorship who killed and tortured tens of thousands: You say what?
useinventilatedarea
I'd bet a dollar that psychotic dictators of officially athiest regimes caused more suffering in the 20th century than religion did.
Elhombremacabro
Whataboutism doesn't justify either.
Elhombremacabro
From a citizen from a country who had an USA backed coup followed by a dictatorship who killed and tortured tens of thousands: You say what?
Tokomek
Are you referring to property taxes? Because as a normal church doesn't make a profit it would never owe income taxes anyway
CangodCreateAStoneItCannotLift
If I get you right, that means that the "real" churches won't pay any or very little taxes. But the commercial churches have to pay big.
sambaah05
The big churches wouldn't either. Don't think many people understand exactly what non-profit means.
bernthevote
They don’t report income and there isn’t any transparency, so none of us fully understand how profitable a business it is. However, a 20 pew
bernthevote
Wooden church with a gravel lot probably isn’t as profitable as a 5 acre, 30,000 sf mega church on prime real estate. It’s very easy to
bernthevote
Understand income when you know the value of things in relation to their peers.
Woppledorf
Aren’t churches supposed to make prophet?
Auxilium
The last one nailed it, but they still didn't get what he wanted
azimir
It depends, but most think they're already had all the prophet they need... but still want more MONEY.
ClericOfTheProsperityGospel
Well then they remain unaffected. But the pastors that wind up with a private jets are. So everyone but them should be happy.
DigYourselfBaby
Tokomek
The Vatican is a foreign country anyway. It still wouldn't pay US taxes.
DigYourselfBaby
I wasn't aware this was a U.S. only forum, or that there were no longer any catholic churches on U.S. soil. Sorry.
Tokomek
Catholic churches belong to the Vatican. And the US not taxing churches is the subject of the post...
thevortexmaster
I assume those major ones like Joel Osteen got rich off of side stuff like book sales for which they would pay taxes on
eadanke
They may not pay taxes on book sales if those book sales are "part of their charitable mission". The UBI regulations are pretty weird.
thevortexmaster
I have no clue honestly. I'm not even American so it's probably different in that respect as well
Tokomek
A private jet would be a business expense write off so the spend wouldn't count as profit.
ClericOfTheProsperityGospel
Mm. Do mansions? Regardless I don't see how the imperfections of the system are an effective reason to not seek improvement.
Tokomek
Pastors already pay income tax on their incomes. Their personal property like homes are also taxed.
jdwagBugVillain
Eh, not if it's a parsonage. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc417