elusivekarma
24295
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I know, I know, I know! When democracy is under threat, it feels like a betrayal to question the election process, but it's more of a betrayal to ignore the data when it says that something happened!
There's a lot to this and some of it is a little dense in the statistics to follow, but I'll do my best to break it down.
First, I'd challenge you to consider - if Trump and Elon believed that they could get away with it, is there any doubt that they would do it? The only things in question is whether they were brazen enough to try and whether they were successful.
Ok, so I've got background in data analysis, but I'm no statistician. I'm not asking you to take my word on it. I'm just trying to get the word out in ways that can be easily understood. These fine people have started a new non-profit just to do this work and they deserve all of the credit. Most of what's to follow comes from their efforts.
https://electiontruthalliance.org/eta
Here's a recent video from them that also goes through everything below if you'd rather watch that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKDw2rlLAs0
The enemy has been flooding us with so much, every day, that it's easy to forget about the things that outraged us and that raised alarms last week, let alone a few months ago. The above are really incontrovertible facts. And when considered all together, it becomes more of a question of "how" rather than "if".
The rest of the post is a lot, so I figured that I'd start with the TL;DR.
I'm also going to add here my plea to all of Imgur. I love this community. I believe in it. And I know how closely it ties in to Reddit and of course how huge that community is. I'm going to ask you all do something that's normally anathema to us. Please repost this. Repost it like your lives depend on it, because just maybe they do.
To that end, I'm hoping that some of my favorite, popular imgurians can help amplify this message. Please steal from me just as I've stolen much of this from @Aximilion .
@deafkitten @celeryman7 @tinyoctopus @iamthecomet @codyburkett @abbiistabbii
Let's dig in to the deets!
The >200 bomb threats alone should have warranted, not a recount, but a whole new special election. It would have been monstrously expensive, but we knew that Russian emails interrupted access to voting locations all throughout the swing states, especially in metro areas. This was so targeted that there's no doubt that they were trying to suppress the vote in these areas.
If Trump genuinely won all of these swing states, why would they have needed to do that? How many Americans in the swing states were denied an opportunity to have their votes counted that day? How were we all ok with just not restoring that opportunity for them?
Every county that changed party alignment in 2024 changed from blue to red. That almost NEVER happens. Reagan was absolutely the most popular Republican presidential candidate in our lifetimes and even when he won 49 out of 50 states, he still had 30 counties flip from red to blue. Trump would have had to have been more popular than Reagan to pull this off.
The last bullet ties in the same as above - The last time there was a clean sweep of all of the swing states was Ronald Reagan in 1984. There's no way that Trump was that popular. It just doesn't track with anything that any of us know anecdotally.
The more valid statistics point is that he "won" the popular vote with less than 2% (48.33% - H vs 49.80% - T), but somehow swept every single swing state. The probability of both occurring simultaneously is absurd. You can't be both barely more popular and also get a landslide in the states that you were most likely to lose.
More anecdotal evidence, but an exceptional point! If you're watching social media, there are huge protest turnouts in every state opposing Trump (and Musk). People are standing up to reject him and everything he stands for. And while there are definitely MAGAts out there defending him online, when it comes to them showing up in person to oppose the protesters...they just aren't there.
The most likely explanation is that they don't have anywhere near the same numbers. They tricked us into thinking they did, but they DO NOT!
So that leads to "how" and that's where people may get a bit squeamish. We wanted to defend how reliable our voting tech is against MAGA so hard, that we forgot that no tech is fail-proof.
I think in some ways that this is the most damning evidence, though maybe some of the hardest to explain. I'll do my best. When the ETA analyzed the Early Voting results they found something that makes no statistical sense.
In the above graph, each voting machine in Clark Co, NV is represented by 3 dots, a red, a blue, and a green. This is easiest to see on the far right of the graph. Each vertical triplet is representative of one machine. The positions of the dots vertically tells you who got what percent of the vote for that machine. The positions horizontally show how many ballots were processed by that machine.
Now look at the left side of the graph (left of the dotted line). You'll notice a lot of randomness. So any given machine may be in a location that got more Harris votes or more Trump votes. And you wouldn't necessarily expect that the total number of votes counted would impact that. The left side shows this.
When a machine counted only a couple hundred votes or fewer, there's a good mix of machines that Harris won vs Trump won. You'd expect one side to win more, but for it to be mixed up like this. But for those machines that counted more, the story changes.
After a certain number of votes counted, machines started showing overwhelmingly in favor of Trump. Sure, it's theoretically possible that he could have won more, but it should NOT have been this consistent. It should have been just as mixed up as the machines on the left. Another thing to consider is that the machines that would have counted the most votes would have been those in the most urban areas - which always favor democrats. If anything, you'd expect this pattern to be reversed.
This doesn't make sense if there was no interference.
The simplest explanation is that the machines were programmed to flip votes from Harris to Trump after counting several hundred to achieve a 40 / 60 split. This is also consistent with the fact that Harris lost in Early Voting (which seems unlikely on it's own), but crushed Trump in Mail in votes. You would expect these to be similar groups of voters and the results to be close to the same.
Republicans usually do best on Election Day, so Trump's win there is less suspicious, (but maybe should still be looked at). But there's no reason that Mail in votes and Early votes would have such drastically different results.
Video clips from ETA that explain more thoroughly.
They joked about it before hand. They were bragging! The following aren't proof of having done it, but they sure as hell show intention to do so.
For everyone who made it this far, thank you for taking the time!
I've been struggling for months with trying to figure out a viable path out of this hellscape and also with feeling so massively disappointed in my fellow Americans. It was shocking to think that so many more people had fallen for the lies, the propaganda, and the hate than I had previously thought. I couldn't imagine how we'd get out of it any time soon if that were so.
But it's not! We were lied to about each other. They sowed distrust amongst us and the protests in recent days help show that to be true. In the previously shared video, there's a point where Nathan estimates that possibly up to 70% of the population actually voted for Harris. We're not outnumbered. THEY ARE!
Source queued up to that part:
https://youtu.be/cKDw2rlLAs0?si=ouv7ySvfnU1olMzp&t=788
Please get the word out and fast so that we can turn this around asap. Every day, Trump and his cronies are working to steal more of our money, our data, and our rights. We can undo this damage, but the longer we wait, the more will need to be rebuilt. Thank you!
hyperchondriac
Ok. Also not a statistician but I am trained in statistical analysis. The graphs where the number of ballots counted increase show narrowing distribution are simply demonstrating a statistical property called the standard error or the mean (SEM). The SEM basically says the error of any sample (difference between the sample average and actual total population average) is inversely proportional to the square root of the sample size. The limit of the error as sample size approaches infinity is 0
torokunai
I don't believe there is a conspiracy. My county swung to Trump and it runs a very tight election ship. Enough of the two-digit crowd just bought what Trump was selling.
UnityInArms
This was a compromise of the machine, and likely was nothing the county could have done better to stop it.
Eucrow
@BlasphemousJones
leodavinci1
If this information is true, then the inevitable conclusion is that you can expect fewer and fewer Democrats to be elected to any position... and a Democrat will never again be elected President.
elusivekarma
Yes and no. I think it means that we need to stop thinking within the normal parameters. This is a coup in action. Coups can be stopped, but not by the methods used during normal, functioning governments.
Forensickle
Look, it is all fishy as fuck, and I wouldn't be surprised. And I am SO glad my country uses hand written ballots for security. But your point about no counter protestors is crack pot territory. The actual obvious reasons why there aren't counter protestors is because they won. It doesn't matter if Dems protest, if they even KNOW about it, because those details don't make it into their news feeds, because they won, and the protest will come to nothing, even if they had video confessions
NotSinceTheAccidend
While I can 87% believe this. The Dems won’t do shit. No one is on our side here.
elusivekarma
That's not as true as you may think. There are politicians fighting every day and unsurprisingly, they are being under-represented in the news.
But if people speak up in large enough numbers, things can happen. They will be paradigm sitting things, but honestly we're already past that point.
john306326
Also Biden did a terrible job.
There are two jobs a president has.
An administrator and a showman.
Biden is a great admin but a terrible showman. He let republicans hammer him for years and never stood up and fought back.
That didn’t help Harris.
sqeaky
Please don't be stupid and think any "analysis" of the numbers like this has merit, this is bs conspiracy theory anomaly hunting. Evidence of the elecrion being hacked with be evidence not anomalies. Show us a voting machine ROM with the hack, show us one piece of software that flipped a real vote. If you have that we will have the ethical obligation to wiolently rise up anything less is exactly what right-wingers used to justify jan 6/and antivaxxing.
UnityInArms
The machines will never show us.
It has to be the paper ballots.
SixPieceChickenMcNobody
They did (and are doing) everything they said they were going to do. This is their version of “promises kept”.
They declared out loud and in project 2025 *precisely* what they were going to do and how they were going to do it and the nation shrugged or never thought it possible.
So many ignored the fact that these people are literally pathological, highly organized, determined, dangerous, and violent.
I read that it’s not that “cruelty is the point” but that it is instead simply “fuck you”.
artie500
If there was monkey business that was verifiable with a recount, why didn't the Dems pick at least the most obvious situation and pay for one before things were finalized.
elusivekarma
That is an excellent question. But also ask yourself how many obvious things they've let slide by in recent weeks, months, years....
I don't know why, but I'd like to.
artie500
Yours is a good question too. Fear of demonizing the electoral process isn't enough to justify what they seem to have let slide. The allegations posted here aren't new. I saw them or similar before the December certification. Scratching my head!
iDrawStuff
So. Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that it was in fact stolen (honestly, wouldn't surprise me, but that's beside the point) - what do we do about it? What real world, applicable effect does this information have on how we proceed?
UnityInArms
Spread the word first, and that helps get more data.
GrowinWildontheFunnyFarm
What any rational people do. We overthrow the traitors who would bring facism to our door.
UnityInArms
This was excellent, thank you.
Frustaz
That's a lot of information to prove something that I knew instinctively, but thank goodness it's there
Jarjarthejedi
"We wanted to defend how reliable our voting tech is against MAGA so hard" I mean, maybe some people do. I know a LOT of security experts have been calling shenanigans on voting machines since their inception. They've always been problematically poorly defended, relying mostly on security through obscurity and prevention of physical access rather than actual proper design.
Jarjarthejedi
https://citp.princeton.edu/our-work/votingsummary/ , https://www.washingtontechnology.mmary/">https://citp.princeton.edu/our-work/votingsummary/ , https://www.washincom/20">mmary/">gtonte">com/20">mmary/">https://citp.princeton.edu/our-work/votingsummary/ , https://www.washingtontechnology.com/2009/03/diebold-official-admits-voting-system-is-vulnerable/324005/ , https://www.technologyreview.com/2012/10/31/84881/the-states-with-the-riskiest-voting-technology/ , https://xkcd.com/2030/
elusivekarma
Yeah, sorry for the generic "we". I think most progressives feel as I said, but I in no way assumed it was unanimous.
ssjalhazred
I'm sorry, I don't believe it. None of this is as convincing an argument as Biden and then Harris simply running terrible campaigns, because they very obviously did. Hell, Biden had internal polling that Trump was going to beat him with 400 electoral votes and the grand response to that was absolutely nothing; he arrogantly kept going and refused to believe he was failing until his debate with Trump forced his hand.
ssjalhazred
It's also worth noting that this isn't unique to the US, this is happening across the entire western world. Liberal politicians are failing EVERYWHERE. Their policies are better, but their *messaging* no longer works and they either can't or won't adapt. This was demonstrably true for Harris as well; if there was a single moment she lost, it was "there is not a thing that comes to mind" by far.
UnityInArms
Or… there’s been a global push to manipulate social media and elections all across the world?
Perhaps Russian Trolls comes to mind?
What if I told you our election system is not secure, and is not even well audited?
ssjalhazred
The problem here being that those aren't the only reasons they're failing, and even if they were, the people who were in the best, if not the only position to do something about those things are the liberal politicians who are now failing because they sat on their heels and didn't bother even trying when they had more power. If you want to give them a pass on their inability and unwillingness to adapt to this landscape, go ahead, but I'm not going to.
seenunseen
Bombs threats don't warrant anew special election. The threats in ga were quickly dismissed. I think one county had to close voting for 30 minutes to check, most didn't even close at all. If anything happened, it's too late now anyways, so just plop all this in a golder on your computer next to the 'zeitgeist' film about the twin towers.
elusivekarma
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/06/election-day-voting-glitches-bomb-threats
onemarbleshort
The one thing that convinces me it was rotten is that they had too much riding on winning NOT to cheat. We've known for years the Repubs play dirty, voter suppression and Intimidation, gerrymandering, bad faith recounts and appeals, all kinds of shit intended to muddy the waters and sow uncertainty and loss of faith in democratic processes. The higher ups were looking at investigation and jail time for crimes real and suspected if they lost, and they spent years demonstrating the playbook they
onemarbleshort
were working from. Everyone said it, everyone knew it, 'the right can't win without cheating' and they didn't care because nobody did anything to stop them. Now, what's more likely? They suddenly decided to play clean on the one for all the marbles and eked out a win? Or the rats took every way to cheat they could find and once again slipped the nets they've already been chewing holes in for years? This shit ain't complicated. A lot of stuff is, but not this.
Ismellofhockey
But in fact, it is complicated. Way more complicated than you're making it out to be. The larger the conspiracy, the more difficult to keep it from leaking. So a well-planned conspiracy would be as small as possible. Trump, on the other hand, flipped more states than he needed. He flipped states run by Democrats and states run by the GOP. He ran up the score or closed the distance in non-swing states. Everything points to a solid Trump victory or a conspiracy so massive it becomes impossible.
UnityInArms
They’ve been telling us themselves they did this!
The problem is our government didn’t want to act to protect our democracy. They failed us.
elusivekarma
McFrazzlestache
So, now what? I've been following r/houstonwade and r/somethingiswrong2024 since the election. How do we rectify this? Where do we even start? Firing squad the current admin? Help.
IrrelevantIrrelevant
For now, we don't.
This is not defeatism, its an unfortunate reality. Trump was sworn in, and the current nest of D's won't do jack shit to actually change that given the majority the R's have. What we do is remember this, and make sure this information is nice and safe for when we have any form of authority again.
Focus on protecting yourself and your loved ones. In order to make things right, we have to survive all this shit first, *then* we can go about fixing all this.
elusivekarma
I think the first thing is to spread the info as far as we can. That should help support the ETA so that they can do more analysis and then convince even more people. Once there's a critical mass of people actively contacting politicians, protesting, etc, then we might get a tipping point for congress people (even Republicans) to call for an impeachment.
The biggest barrier is the Republicans feeling safe. I believe this could be the thing that galvanizes the citizenry enough to change that.
UnityInArms
Paper ballots for true proof.
elusivekarma
And even if somehow we can't change things, people still have the right to know.
SparkleDogg
Thanks for making this. THERE ARE MORE OF US THAN THEM. Both MAGA —and, more importantly—the oligarchs.
Imadethisaccounttopost
I really hate how MAGAts look at the nation and see so many red counties and are like "There are more of us than you!"
No.. no there isn't, those counties have like 20 people in them and are only red because 11 or more are MAGA, while DEMS/LIBS own the largest population centers.
samwyze
"Nuh uh" - The Supreme Court
Trollcaverneux
SO WHAT ??
Sorry, but flat numbers are barely an argument in a functional democracy, what are you expecting in the current USA ?
Unless you're talking about Luigi Mangione type solutions, of course.
Cbouch4rd
There's been so much fuckery that undoing it legally will take a lot of time and we have seen that legal action doesn't work. The only way back is more extreme.
SparkleDogg
Don’t underestimate how much our sheer numbers can scare them.
elusivekarma
It's going to be hard for a lot of people to recognize that this isn't a "functional democracy". Luigi solutions, extreme protests, military options... we need to start thinking outside the box
Cbouch4rd
Pretty soon it's going to be hard to recognize it as a functional democracy.
DwightSchrupert
The people elected a leader, I think that's pretty democratic all things considered. It was the democratic party who propped up an unelected official to the highest office, that was the only threat to democracy in this race.
tidepool
elusivekarma
Oh....so just talking around the whole message of the post rather than engaging with it. How unexpected!
DwightSchrupert
Well you're not telling the truth on a lot of this stuff, and your solutions are violent and dangerous.
ColoniaCroisant
Unfortunately cheating doesn't mean shit if we can't prove it before Kamala steps down and Biden hands over power. Those were the two checks
MeestowKitty
We could've proven it. The data looked weird on election night. The dems chose not to challenge it, once again, because being "bipartisan" and "taking the high road" is more important to them than our lives.
elusivekarma
You're talking about the old rules of engagement. The lines we've never crossed. But Trump has crossed them. The social contract is broken. Things can change.
PrincessBatCat
Yup. Spread the word, prep the molotovs, oil up the guillotines.
jansenart
@OP you can't convince me that these morons were capable of this.
UnityInArms
Look at what DOGE is doing right now.
They themselves are fools, but money buys you minions with skill sets.
elusivekarma
Trump isn't. 100% agree there. He and his flashy cronies are mostly figureheads who galvanize his base. But there are smart people in that mix. Musk isn't a genius, but he's smart enough to have contributed. Plus Heritage Foundation people. Plus who knows how much foreign (Russia, Israel?) resources?
They distract us with the idiots so we don't see who's really making the plans.
ParallelParkingInABurka
#15 At the end of this video he shows the data from 2020, which also looks like it goes from random to clearly separated after a certain point - what does he say about that? Do you have a link to the rest?
UnityInArms
And yes seeing 2020 manipulation on a smaller scale.
But mail-in voting was a majority of Biden’s votes in 2020.
ParallelParkingInABurka
Thanks. But doesn't that immediately throw the whole theory of "they cheated in 2024" in doubt - unless one assumes they also cheated in 2020? Dont get me wrong, i really want to believe they did (for whatever good it would do to know at this point without them outright admitting to it & showing receipts) but that seems a big thing to judt gloss over by going "yeah, but the effect is much more pronounced in 2024" (which, I'd quibble about how much more, actually).
elusivekarma
@Aximilion , do you have that easily available to share?
UnityInArms
10 minutes in, briefly discussed the vote manipulation in early voting.
https://youtu.be/1dQI_ujEYGM?si=CUd2DbtIMwKOtUtN
OmgOptimized
#11 But the more people voting on each machine, the closer to the true value it is expected to get. So yes, you would "necessarily" expect more votes/samples averaged to lead to more ordered, calmer data. Smaller variance between machines. I can't say for sure there isn't anything there, but that rationale doesn't cut it.
elusivekarma
That's not how that works. I get why you say that, but you wouldn't expect every polling location to have the same result. You would expect variation. You're thinking that there is one true answer and each polling machine is a random sampling of those answers, but they aren't.
This isn't multiple sampling of the same data set. These are each unique data sets which are influenced by geographical factors to be unique.
OmgOptimized
But they don't have the same results, they really don't. The only real exception is perhaps the five largest machines, but for all we know those are machines placed in the same high-traffic location.
elusivekarma
This is more nuanced, so I didn't get including it originally. See the difference?
elusivekarma
And here's the distribution for election day:
UnityInArms
Use this more as the baseline. This is what a more normal, random human voting pattern should generally look like when mapping data this way.
OmgOptimized
I mean I can see a pattern difference, but a brain finding a pattern is a long way away from anything close to true. People find patterns in noise all the time. For example: how do know this isn't just an artifact of greater polarization? These plots all have mismatching scales, too.
elusivekarma
I mean, if you're a statistician, I encourage you to reach out to the ETA for the details on their data and analysis. I'm not saying it's 100%, and when they've gotten enough analysis out there, I want it corroborated by as many other experts as possible.
But this is good enough for me to support them in their efforts.
MeestowKitty
I didn't read through all of this, but another one I noticed, was that a lot of State Ballot Measures had fewer voters than the president. So people were going into vote, and ONLY voted for the president? That seems really odd. For example, on Prop 133, they had 338,968 fewer votes than the presidential component did. THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND people voted for the presidential election and ignored a state proposition? 2 mil voted yes to abortion rights, but only 1.5 mil voted yes for Harris?
Ismellofhockey
Do you really think it's odd that MAGA would have no clue as to what Prop 133 was?
mesogiria
Under-voting for downballot candidates and issues is relatively common. In MA, 39k were blank on president, and 260k on ballot question 1.
UnityInArms
In reference to what is it common?
mesogiria
To the general run of elections, in the United States and, to some extent, worldwide. More people vote for the higher offices than lower, and more people vote for things higher up on the ballot.
Beefkins
I have no trouble believing Trump and Musk cheated. At the same time, there are just so many idiot MAGAs that I interact with on a day-to-day basis that I can also imagine he legitimately won.
Blanks56
MAGAts, not MAGAs
BDBottom
MAGgots, not MAGAts.
elusivekarma
That's fair. I was in the same boat for a long time. But I think we're starting to see evidence that it happened. I have no idea that more will come.
elusivekarma
I have no *doubt...
Beefkins
I will say that I was very surprised when he "won." All of my liberal friends and I were gung ho for Harris and highly motivated to vote. I've not met a single liberal personally that had an issue with her, or at least an issue so big that they though not voting was a good idea. So the fact that she fell so hard behind Biden seemed very weird to me, but I chalked that up me assuming to much because of my social circle.
Imadethisaccounttopost
Honestly, his gloating alone and all the thanks to "Musk's work in Pennsylvania" was all we needed.
StarSumiaki
Okay, suppose it's proved stolen. Fascists won't step down. What exactly does this change about the fight ahead? What allies do we gain?
tidepool
I think I read of only 20% of Congress challenges it then something can be done to undo this and put her in office but idk anything about that.
michealangleo
a lot of people are pointing their anger right now at "those idiots who didnt vote" so a lot of allies i imagine, of everyday people who are angry at the wrong people and are willing to roll over 🤷♂️
GrowinWildontheFunnyFarm
Evidence to hand to NATO since France wants to pursue action under breach of Article 5.
veritas1980
this would be precisely the reason why we have a second amendment.
LordHelmetTheThird
Well, if there's going to be next elections, you know they're not going to lose if the voting is done by (compromised) machines. Paper ballot is the only way to somewhat ensure fair elections.
blessedarethecheesemakers
Maybe it motivates enough people to get off their asses and overthrow an illegitimate government.
LunaWolvesLoyalist
We gain the moral high ground to use violence.
StarSumiaki
We already have the moral high ground to use violence. The administration is fascist. There is no ethical or moral position that supposes accepting fascism.
LunaWolvesLoyalist
I mean I agree but sadly alot of leftist do not which blows my fucking mind.
StarSumiaki
Indeed. Moral high ground means nothing if the world burns down around you. Morals means nothing if you're dead. So why are they like that?
Cbouch4rd
It is the data to justify the revolution that is about to come. People keep saying “show me the evidence”, so here it is. Now fucking do something. Otherwise you’re a coward or a shill.
tekcor
Unfortunately nothing. The constitution is pretty clear. “Our” election doesn’t matter, it’s the Electoral College that matters. They voted Trump in, so that’s the end of it.
TheSinhound
Ones in other countries. Which is important because this ONLY ends with revolution and civil war and we're going to need allies.
ssjalhazred
This is the worst part of it. This could be proven irrefutably and the democrats would do nothing. They're too terrified of being rude.
StarSumiaki
I'm not even thinking about politicians. I don't think you can rules your way to a victory against rule-skirters. I just don't imagine this would somehow invoke the military to step in. And I don't know what else would change.
tidepool
I don’t know something tells me this violates the constitution and the military is beholden to defend and uphold the constitution above all others. They’d be literally required to do something.
StarSumiaki
TBH, that feels like it's in the exact same ballpark as everything else.
"You can't do that, that's illegal" -> oops, they're doing it because they don't care.
"You are legally required to defend and uphold the constitution" -> oops, they're not doing anything because whoever is in charge of ordering that sympathizes with Trump.
StarSumiaki
Other comment sent prematurely. To finish: I just don't trust that any established infrastructure of the country is going to save us. If we're gonna kick the fascists to the curb, it'll have to be the citizens who do it. And from that point of view, I don't imagine there's a functional difference between fighting fascists who were elected and fascists who cheated their way into power. Fascism is fascism and either people are going to fight it or they're not.
elusivekarma
Maybe the military. Maybe just scared the Republican politicians into backing down in their support. It would take a huge groundswell of public anger, but if it's accurate that ~70% of us voted for Harris, I think that anger will be there when this is commonly known.
Blanks56
But the President is chosen by citizens voting, he's elected by the electoral college. The only recourse is to pick new people for the EC.
tidepool
If she won 70% of the vote her electoral numbers would change and she’d be president.
elusivekarma
Uhhh...it's all made up rules my guy. That's not the only recourse. If enough people support this investigation and enough are convinced by the results, the rules can change.
BobRossHB
Or orrrrr. Burn it all down. we after all can count well past 1 million these days so no reason at all to not use popular vote. And rank choice voting too. But that's socialism apparently
elusivekarma
I've been advocating rank choice voting for decades.
Kopar
I'm all for investigating and vetting the election, and please do continue, but some of the arguments are weak and frankly, ignore so much indepedent polling that showed that the outcome that we got, was coming. To be fair, polls haven't been very good, but unfortunately, the fact of the matter is, no matter how maddening and senseless it is, Trump was just more popular. Kamala wasn't. And we need to be very cautious with these kinds of content because we don't want to go down their same hole.
Metallica93
I wouldn't bother. One dolt on here attacked me for asking incredibly basic questions that poked holes in this with relative ease. It's just desperate people trying to find patterns where there are none. The real irony is they ask how Trumpers came to be and then post shit like this...
elusivekarma
Why do you gotta go to the ad hominom attacks? That's Trump shit too.
Look. I'm not trying to tell anyone to just trust me or even to trust the ETA. I'm just saying that it fits enough for me to be convinced that something happened and that we need to get to the bottom of it.
The difference between what I'm trying to do and what the MAGAts do is that I want you to ask the questions. I want you to use your critical thinking skills. But don't attack us for considering it as a possibility.
elusivekarma
We're all on the same side here. It's us against the problem.
UnityInArms
There were polls such as in Ohio that did not show Trumps projected lead.
You can’t hold up polls as viable sources unless you know who made them and how.
Look for the career poll makers and see what they based their predictions on.
Ismellofhockey
Indeed. The only plausible conspiracy to me is the media changed how they covered the race and favoured Trump. Beyond that is tinfoil territory IMO.
rshini
the media was completely in Trump's corner, whether it was Biden or Harris
EroticZombiePants
They have already taken control. It really is too late now even if there is definitive proof. They can just make it disappear the same way they are actively in the process of making many other things disappear.
Given Trump's favorability ratings have only dropped slightly since Jan 20 and are still better than even his peak during his first term, this indicates there are far more Americans who really want all of what is happening to occur than merely the ones who showed up to vote for Trump.
elusivekarma
Honestly this isn't about getting them to do the right thing. This is about educating the public and getting them angry enough in large enough numbers such that no amount of ratings will allow the Republicans to ignore the threat. Also, if the military were looking for a good reason to step in....
PrincessBatCat
I wish there was a way to compact the info into flyers or something that can be spread around more easily. Something concise enough that the average person won't ignore it because too much text, but enough to get the point across for the desired result.
elusivekarma
That right there is probably the core issue for why this hasn't come to light sooner.
PrincessBatCat
Legit if we can find a way to get it down into a relatively light pamphlet, maybe slap on a QR code which leads to a site with more info and what someone can do, I'll gladly start spreading these around town and fail to notice them accidentally slipping out of my pocket and onto aisles every now and then when I'm at work.
elusivekarma
I like where your head is at! I'm torn because it's going to be really hard to do that with the data so far. But at some point, as the ETA gets more results, that would totally be a great move.
I'll think on it over the weekend to see if I can find a way to do it with what we've got to date, but we may need to wait a bit longer.
Metallica93
"The intended purpose of [the bomb] threats remains unclear", then asks an unsubstantiated "What if?" question after that <_<
Did the bomb threats impact these locations? Were voters turned away? How long were they closed for, if at all? Were they reopened with extensions?
You can't say "Not to be a conspiracy nut" and then go straight to "These warrant a special election!" :/
elusivekarma
There's only so much that I can cover in one post, but I'll find those answers and add them here if not also in the post.
Metallica93
Those are the kinds of things that need as much evidence to back them up as possible for folks to take these claims seriously. If they exist and you find them, that would be worthy of a post.
SparkleDogg
Did you stop there or did you actually look at the data? Likewise, you can’t claim to be a critical thinker when half reading shit
Metallica93
I mean, did you even read my comment? There is almost no data on the bombings shown here other than locations and numbers. Why do you think I asked those questions? Why didn't you ask yourself "Okay, but what impact did they have, if any?"
"There were bomb threats!" and then not building off of that as supporting evidence is... a conspiracy. This is incredibly basic stuff. We yell at the right for doing it. Let's not pretend we're immune to corroborating data, too.
Metallica93
Read Koala and seenunseen's comments for more information (assuming both are true). Don't be a conspiracy whacko.
AndroidSoul
From what I can see, koala and seenunseen are both saying pretty definitively "yeah, the bomb threats look like attempted interference but don't appear to have had any notable impact on the election". It's the exact opposite of conspiracy theorism for someone to see a claim that implies a result and ask why the person sharing the information only posted the part that implies supporting results and not any actual information demonstrating supporting results
Metallica93
Brother, how did you write that first sentence and then go on to entirely miss the point? There was barely any data on the bombings shown here (hence my obvious questions/probing), but then they're suddenly impactful enough to trigger a "special election"? But then you find a non-conspiracy theory post about them and... whoops. 2 of 30 threats in Georgia caused minor blips. And zero news on any of the other 170+ being major. Pretty basic stuff.
Metallica93
Blocked by another emotional idiot, lol. This is why we trust data, not opinions.
elusivekarma
I guarantee that @SparkleDogg is the furthest from an emotional idiot that you've ever encountered. She's just tired of trying to convince people of things that are so obvious to the truly intelligent and educated. But don't worry, I'll keep trying!
SparkleDogg
Why bother continuing the conversation? I recognize bad faith when I see it, and I know a lost cause when I see one. But I respect that you’ll still try.
Also, Metallica sucks. Clue number one
Metallica93
Given their defensive (and emotional) reply, I highly doubt it. It was your post, so it's your job to convince us. There's good stuff here, but if it's supposed to be immune from any surface-level questioning and probing, it's going to fail. I don't know why Sparkle fails to see that and calls it "bad faith". We question right-wing conspiracy theories all of the time. Why this is any different is, in fact, bad faith.
SparkleDogg
Yes. I read it. And it’s stupid.
KoalaOnTheJuice
Stuff like the bomb threats is obviously worthy of investigation, but polling aggregates had Trump winning every swing state consistently for more or less the entire election period, and the final results were consistent with polling predictions.
Arbitrarynamehere
For real, this shit is so sad to look at. Kamala just wasn't popular, get over it and get a better fucking candidate next time.
RyanHaynes
If there is a next time
blzrdphoto
It also matched exit polling from what I remember.
justfiguredoutimc4azyanddumbb
* Trust the polls *
MeestowKitty
What about the fact that every swing state type place he won, he won just enough to keep over the recount margin? That doesn't seem slightly odd too you?
Arbitrarynamehere
Given that the polling showed a pretty close race, no that doesn't strike me as odd
Ismellofhockey
Why would it be? Trump killed it in non swing states too.
mrthewhitee
To be fair the GOP were also flooding aggregators with their own biased polling all through the last month or two.
pushplay
The aggregators aren't dumb. They're not just taking a simple average of every poll thrown at them. They weight polls by a rating for the pollster, and pollsters with a known bias are unskewed by the amount of that bias.
KoalaOnTheJuice
Thank you, good to hear some support for poll science.
mrthewhitee
I don't think any system is impervious to manipulation.
L3NTON
Especially when we know for a fact the right wingers are more than happy to slush money around from shady sources if need be.
bril350
Dumb isnt the question. Its who pays their bills.
elusivekarma
Yeah, I can see why that could convince some people. But we all know that pills can br wildly wrong and have been in the past. And it doesn't explain the rest of the data.
moart
" To ensure a Nazi majority in the vote, Nazi organisations also "monitored" the vote process. In Prussia, 50,000 members of the SS, SA and Der Stahlhelm were ordered to monitor the votes as so-called deputy sheriffs or auxiliary police (Hilfspolizei) in another decree by acting Interior Minister Hermann Göring. "
https://www.gregpalast.com/trump-lo">n-won/">https://www.gregpalast.com/trump-lost-vote-suppression-won/ + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_XdtAQXnGE
mrthewhitee
I saw a number of reports that right leaning orgs were flooding agregators with right wing polling data, skewing the results.
Ismellofhockey
Even the Nate Silver had the election as a coin flip, and it takes very little for everything to break in one party's favour. We've seen that happen before.
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elusivekarma
There isn't? What isn't? That doesn't track with what I wrote. I appreciate that this is disruptive and I understand the ramifications of that. But I've seen enough that I'm now convinced. I'm not saying that any of this is 100%, but if they really did hack the tabulators, it could very much look like this. And we need to be leaning in to the discomfort. If we get a full investigation and analysis and it's disproven, then it is what it is. But this is too wonky to not look at under a microscope.
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SparkleDogg
If you can’t see when data is irregular, you’re the fucking moron, fucking moron.
BeefiusMaximus1
Ah, yes we believe the guy who "says so" over the guy with data. You must be the idiot if you believe that, obviously.
elusivekarma
Oh! I see. You're just replying to the whole post, not to the actual comment.
Your unnecessary personal attacks when I was being gracious in my responses makes me doubt that it's worth replying to you, but I'll give it one more go.
Are you saying that it's so impossible that it's not even worth looking at? As a trained scientist (at Johns Hopkins Medical school (since you inferred that I'm a moron)), I know that you can't assume that something is true just because it's never been proven
Ismellofhockey
If they could hack the machines, why would they bother with the bomb threats?
elusivekarma
Because a smart tactician uses every available stratagem. You don't put all your eggs in one basket, especially if some moves take very little effort. Setting up a fake email account and emailing out bomb threats is such an easy thing to do that I'm sure it required a tiny fraction of their resources.
Ismellofhockey
Like I said, a smart tactician makes the smallest imprint possible during a covert operation.
elusivekarma
Ehhhh. That doesn't apply. The election was about as overt as possible. Everyone was looking. When that's happening, you don't try to leave a small imprint. You make a big distraction. Their playbook is always to flood us with so much abhorrent nonsense that it's hard to catch everything. It's what they always do.
ShadeWilson2
The bomb threats let them physically access the machines to hack them in the confusion, everyone securing the machines got evacuated and the doors are unlocked and open to anyone to ensure people can get out. Pretty straightforward.
Ismellofhockey
Hmm, so how do you explain that Trump got the same results in counties where there were no bomb threats as in the ones where there were?
ShadeWilson2
Other avenues of access.