Xalten2
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May 22, 2025 6:32 PM
Xalten2
55770
1817
22
TsubakiTragic
The attending did not say "the Chinese/russians ARE...", merely intimating the possibility. No foul, no penalty.
heartlesswench
This post is so old the antivax mother is a granny by now. Or she would be, if her kids hadn't died of fucking measles.
pilomotor
Their comment was originally posted on May 21, 2019.
TNSCLuotaMEa4fVN
He said COULD be. It's possible! In fact, it's likely. The Russians and Chinese have pumped a lot of propaganda into our social media.
gman003
I don't even find that conspiracy theory ridiculous. Russia is known to foment conspiracy theories in the US to sow division, going all the way back to the Soviets. They saw some pop up after MLK got shot, realized it was a way to fuck with us, started amplifying the JFK conspiracy theories, and have kept going ever since. There was a whole section on it in the Mueller Report iirc. That predated COVID but I'd be surprised if Russia *wasn't* spreading shit about it.
StarshipSuperTrooper
"Vaccines are peddled by the evil pharmaceutical industry"
Counterpoint the evil pharmaceutical industry pushing anti-vax because a problem that was solved in infancy can no be treated lifelong. Not getting vaccinated is exactly what the evil pharmaceutical industry wants
Dandymion
Nice story of true
spookymormonhelldream
In a similar vein one of the best ways I've learned to counter moon landing conspirators is to ask them why USSR never denied that we actually landed on the moon. If anyone has anything to gain from it, it would've been our Space Race rivals
GermanSausagesAreTheWurst
Yup, that's a good one. We had a moon landing denier at work, and one kid was starting to believe his BS. So I said what you said to the kid and I'm pretty sure I saved him from going down a rabbit hole.
krylani
Tried that once, got "They were in on it!" in response. Guy refused to elaborate on how or why.
GermanSausagesAreTheWurst
If they are hardcore, nothing's going to work. But if there is somebody just dipping their toe in the water, it can work.
TheWombatStrikesAgain
Wouldn't call that theory ridiculous. Russia evidently uses and sometimes directly supports all kinds of weird, extremist, and contrarian groups. Sure the main goal is to incite chaos and increase political division, but reducing the overall health of the enemy population would be a welcome side effect.
Targe0
I mean, it's a known fact that they started the anti-nuclear hippy movement in the 70s in the US. They wanted to hamper and slow down and if possible create enough domestic pressure to halt the US nuclear program. It was a fairly successful KGB operation, though the CIA was fully aware of it, so the impact on the government was limited. But the Public really got on board with it.
Gaelwyn
The world would be a better place if they'd been successful. Nuclear weapons should never have been created.
Targe0
Oh, they weren't just targeting the weapons. No, they were going after the nuclear power plants. As no power plants, there's not refined nuclear fuel for weapons. They fuelled a lot of the NIMBY talking points. The best way to weaken the US nuclear weapons program is to take way its fuel supply.
FelonyFerret
Yeah, but the anti-Vax shit started by a guy who posted a study in the Lancet, a medical journal, about 20 years ago about how the MMR vaccine specifically caused Autism. It kinda just exploded from there despite being retracted and debunked. It doesn't matter, conspiracy theoriest can't accept the logical explination, it HAS to be some boogeyman.
Gogoglovitch
That's the origin, sure, and it's well documented. But it's also pretty well documented that Russia is using any angle it can to throw the US into chaos, and amplifying disastrous conspiracy theories is one of them. Wakefield started it, but I fully expect it wouldn't have the saturation it does without Putin.
Targe0
And the key part about that whole thing was, the now degraded former Doctor that pushed it, did so to sell his vaccine. He was slandering his competitors' vaccine by saying it caused Autism, so that people would buy his one instead. It's literally the kind of Big Pharma shit the conspiracy theorists think is going on. But this actually did happen, and it was the guy who started the whole anti-vax and Autism link doing it.
PolitiCat
Antivaxxers are child abusers and need to be imprisoned.
nubblebun
Yeah, I don't think it's conspiracy theory at all. I think it's just common sense that enemies of the United States would wish to see the population misinformed and weak. They have done an excellent job.
TI99Kitty
I mean, they've been pushing misinformation to interfere with our elections, who knows what other BS they're spreading? I wouldn't be a bit surprised if tomorrow some investigation turned up evidence that Russia or some other bad actor was pushing anti-vax crap at us.
NaSMaX
The kid will thank you
CabooseDM
the irony is that an attempt to trash the US population by reducing medical services including vaccines IS an old Soviet plan
ADDGirl
Medical ethics? He asked her a question, nothing else.
Targe0
He manipulated her into getting a medical procedure done on her child. Now, the fact that it was something in the best interest of the child, doesn't mean it didn't possibly violate medical ethical lines. Which is why there's medical ethics boards to review incidents to see if lines were crossed.
ADDGirl
So if the doctor suggests someone get their child vaccinated and they don't want to do it, the doc suggests it again with different reasoning and they then agree and do it, is that also manipulation?
Would it change your mind if the doctor actually believed what they said about other countries and the propaganda? Would it still be manipulation then?
I've seen signs where a pediatrician doesn't accept unvaccinated patients, is that manipulation? Discrimination?
Targe0
And it's questions like that, which is why there are ethical review boards. As it's their job to rule on issues such as these and work out where the lines need to be drawn. As ethical issues like this aren't explicitly clear.
Hibbtygibitty
I’m immuno compromised due to chemo/radiation + surgery. Then a bout of anemia. Antivax people are an imminent danger to our country.
Aurentis
Yeah that's not a conspiracy it's just literally true we can track anti-vax propaganda from Russian trolls.
I mean granted it started with some malicious grifter trying to make a buck selling his miracle elixir in lieu of vaccination after eroding confidence in what is probably the single greatest medical advancement in human history with autism scaremongering bullshit, but it's definitely since been amplified by foreign adversaries to weaken, de-educate, and divide our nation.
cousteau
Honestly, that's a conspiracy theory I'd be willing to believe.
Targe0
Especially since there's actual tangible links for it. Especially during Covid, there was a lot of Russian propaganda against western developed vaccines to try and push the Russian vaccine to western nations.
Mec26
It’s actually decently documented.
pilomotor
Yeah, their comment was originally posted on May 21, 2019. It's a lot easier to believe post-COVID.
Turbogoat
Telling a Conspiracy Theorist that they're being gullible, and just believing what manipulators are telling them hurts their very soul - they need to feel like they're the only ones who know the real truth. This can be a very effective tactic against them.
beetcher
This is the only story I've ever seen for this
IJustWantToMakeAComment
I just did a parade last weekend (yeah I play trumpet in parades as a side gig since teaching can’t pay the bills) and the people who hired us were literally clowns. Dressed up and everything. I ended up accidentally finding out that one clown is major anti-vax. I had to listen to a 15 minute speech about why vaccines are evil and deadly from a literal clown- costume makeup and everything
sabrinadiesatdawn
The wife says there are no ethical problems with this approach, but only because the hypothetical is plausible. Russian/Chinese influence in antivax spheres is well documented and therefore, this physician is engaging with the patient in a manner which is (A) respectful of the patients worldview and (B) not dishonest.
DesperateDunn365
Yes. They didn't lie. Just offered an alternative possibility.
unsneakyLurker
I'm pretty sure this story predates the confirmation that antivax conspiracies were spread and amplified by Russian intelligence agencies. Which makes the doctor's use of a counter-conspiracy theory as a memetic vaccine even funnier in retrospect.
riddmkidd
yup, remember your recent history, kids.
Lexgeddon
I would argue that was true if he were engaging with her worldview in good faith. The story gives enough context for us to know that his intention was to trick her. The fact that he was tricking her into making the correct medical choices for her child doesn't change that, no matter how much we'd like it to. That said, I have no ideas for an alternative approach to this shit that doesn't sort of fly in the face of informed consent, since informed consent becomes impossible when the1
dbox
I would argue there was no trick. He asked a question of her, did you consider this
Lexgeddon
There was a trick. Just own it.
dbox
I see no trick, sorry
Lexgeddon
person making the decisions is immune to information. What a fucked-up period of history this is.
onlyhalfghost
as someone who's worked in accounting and elder care, though, I can tell you the only way to work with crazy is to get inside and steer.
Gaelwyn
You don't have to engage with people's fucked up worldviews in "good faith" in the way you're suggesting. Antivaxxers are idiots who ignore facts and endanger the lives of their children and other vulnerable people. They're no better than someone who drives drunk. You should do whatever is needed to get them to stop their bad behavior. Up to and including calling CPS, because it is child abuse to endanger your child's life by refusing to allow them to be given basic preventative medical care.
BishlamekGurpgork
You can argue that there is an ethical balance that is more important than the question of whether the single act is ethical in and of itself.
But we can still partition our questioning and also talk about the single act.
Lexgeddon
Is the problem that we're working under the assumption that "trickery" is inherently bad? It's just a tool; fine to use in some circumstances, damaging in others.
BishlamekGurpgork
I think the issue is that we're not talking about whether the outcome is favorable, but whether it's an ethical process.
There are different ways of looking at ethics - 'ends justify the means' ethics is often loaded with negative connotations, but it's got a lot of merit, and your objection hits on one such situation.
It doesn't mean that the means are ethical, though, only that you are ethically justified in using an unethical means to obtain an ethical end.
Lexgeddon
In the medical world, there actually are rules about not using trickery to influence a patient's (or that person's caregiver's) decision. And I'm not saying you HAVE to do it, at any rate. But to engage with it under false auspices in order to fool them into doing the right thing is still trickery. That's the only point I'm making. I'm fine with it under normal (non-systemic) circumstances, but call a spade a spade.
cactusjuiceitsthequenchiest
You guys believe in the *MOON*??!
heimeyer72
Beautiful. And it was just a question, "Have you considered the possibility..." - it might be a possibility, or not. She hadn't considered that. ... This is so beautiful!
wetqueef
It’s ethical to say something to a patient that is 1) not really a lie, 2) in their absolute best interest, 3) in no way gratifying materially to the clinician. It’s ethical to say that the medicine will work because we know if people expect it to work it literally makes it work better.
kerrigan778
"increasingly ridiculous"? The US has been caught spreading anti-vax propaganda in foreign countries and Russia has also been caught spreading anti vax propaganda in the US. Those are things that have absolutely happened.
NotaCPA
THIS. The killing of Osama Bin Laden was a horrible setback for the Red Cross. Those agents were doing vaccines and doing DNA testing to find Bin Laden's family. So lies were told, fake vaccines handed out...then a US strike team deployed to kill one person. Pakistan ended all Red Cross vaccine programs after that. I believe a few other countries did to.
dorenavant
What did they mean by “well-child encounter”?
Targe0
Child wellness checks. When a young child is meant to have regular check-ups with their paediatrician to make sure they are developing correctly, handle their vaccination schedules, and look out for early signs of any issues such as hearing and sight problems. They also look out for cognitive issues.
msporkboy
It's a checkup, as opposed to coming in because the kid is ill or injured.
dorenavant
Ahhh, thank you!
Crowlands
"Increasingly ridiculous conspiracy theory"
One of the forms of propaganda found on sites like Facebook, found to be from Russian sources, was anti-vax BS.
HelikaformerNubisKnight9
There are enough Russian migrants were I live that are proud anti-vaxxers. But they are religious nutjobs too. One is often tied to the other.
Cthonix
The US was also found to be doing exactly this in the Philippines in order to undermine their relationship with China.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-covid-propaganda/
Hypothesist
yeah honestly not a ridiculous theory
slightlybrokenegg
Anti vac rhetoric has been a thing for over 150 years. I am sure Russian operatives have had a hand in spreading it especially recently but they did not create it.
Nuttsy
Nazis didn't create The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, either, but they just as gladly disseminated them.
onlyhalfghost
funny enough in this specific conversation, agents of the Russian monarchy *did* create that.
Nuttsy
Yeah, I thought about pointing it out, but even they were working off of earlier material.
pilomotor
Their comment was originally posted on May 21, 2019.
rudejohn
I mean the origin of the anti-vaxx movement is 100% British, but it has been co-opted by other agents as well.
slightlybrokenegg
Yep these kinds of idiots have been around for over 150 years.
QuartzPoker
Benjamin Franklin was anti-vax back when it was still the questionable process of Inoculation via Exposure, then one of his kids died and he had a change of heart and became a proponent of it.
MaleProstateMilker88
Really? I thought it was Americans since they always come up with the craziest conspiracies like it's their past time to invent them.
coffeeandprozac
Like with most things, Americans plagiarized the idea.
rudejohn
The modern anti-vaxx movement was founded by Wakefield and British journals that posted his poorly researched garbage. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
Sechran
hannahbutnotreally
You pay for vaccines??
TI99Kitty
About a year ago, I decided I should check on getting a COVID booster, because it's been too long since my last one. I was glad to hear I wouldn't need an appointment, but when I asked how much it costs, I was told it would be $150.
TI99Kitty
This was BEFORE we had a brain-damaged, anti-vax weirdo in charge of HHS.
WwwhyYouNoLikeMe
Things sure are weird in the ol' yankistan
Sechran
thegoodowl
https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTY1YjkxZmJlNm9pa2txczgxcDQwdGRxZ29kemI4ajg0ano2YjdkaGJ3Z3ZyeWRxdyZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/D6WuLOKOpR2fK/giphy.mp4
Fantelroy
CookieMonstersCrumbs
I paid a little over 200 dollars last year for covid/flu vaccines, and this year I might not even be able to get a covid vaccine because these fucking numbnuts want to restrict who gets it. It's fucking STUPID.
Ryebread91
Pharm tech. May I DM you?
hannahbutnotreally
You guys are cooked.
CookieMonstersCrumbs
Yeah, gotta love all the winning.
hannahbutnotreally
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1NXRqcGtrbXVlaTVtZXR3Y3hzbGRibnpucmJ0bGJwbXNydTM0MWlyZSZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/qRF7WQtTGYs4yz2yHq/200w.webp
BorkasonBork
For comparison, I am old grey haired dude in Sweden, got 8 covid jabs one after the other, early and free, every one of them.
mandorsawalll
I've heard the argument that too many vaccines too quickly is somehow bad. I had no idea but often asked but why do you think so? Goes to modified vaccine schedule from the story. The answer is usually something like it has to be. Lol nothing has to be.
mandorsawalll
Also often people look at tablets and say something like 500 miligrams? Thats alot. Lol why? Because some other substance is is usualy 250mg dose. But not all substances are equaly potent. The mass is not the only thing that defines it. It's just dumb to compare it lake that. Like is 500mg of salt alot? Of course not. People nod like they understand and then they repeat it again. Like my wife. She asks me often how many micrograms in a miligram but can't remember that it doesn't really matter
Targe0
Yeah, it's about dosages. As something like 2 milligrams of say fentanyl will kill you. That's not a lot, but around 20 Litres of water will kill you when ingested all in one go. Which is a lot, but it turns something harmless like water into a toxin that our bodies can't process because it's too much for our bodies to handle. Dosage is key.
GermanSausagesAreTheWurst
I just found that our county has a mobile vaccination van that gives out free vaccines to residents. So I was like "give me all of the vaccines" and they were like "you should probably split them up". So I only got 3, but they were right. Getting 3 in one day, my arms were aching . Especially the Hep shot hurt a lot. But I'm ready for the other 3 now. I can't afford a DR, so I'm doing to everything I can to prevent. Other than sore arms, never any ill effects.
mandorsawalll
In many different countries and languages same worry. It's to many too soon vaccines for a poor little baby. But we have been doing it for decades. Why would you think so. They just drink from same poisoned well. Like freaking facebook or something.
GermanSausagesAreTheWurst
Yea Facebook is not good. Some countries Facebook IS the internet, and that's not helping.
Targe0
It's not really bad, it's just kind of a miserable thing to go through. As the body has to fight off each vaccine it thinks is a virus. So to get a lot of them all at once can just be rather unpleasant, because it's like being sick with multiple infections all at the same time. It also reduces the unknowns with potential allergic reactions. There's also different ages that have better factors for different vaccines.
RetrogradeLlama
Must be a dated story. They love the Russians now. The Chinese are neutral.
teh0khardic
Replace "Russian" or "Chinese" with "Democrat". Problem solved forever
Sylverhammer
Say that "Big Pharma" loves people who don't Vax cause healthy people don't make them money but sick people? Sick people they can make loads of money off of.
TacoPoweredHelicopter
Cures are bad for shareholders .. addictive long term treatments are fantastic for shareholders.
Sylverhammer
And we must appease the shareholders.
AttilaTheHungover
"Communists" is broad enough.
Tsig
The Deep State wants you to not Vax your kids because they can make more money off of sick kids than they can healthy ones. And sick kids grow up to be sick adults, if they grow up at all.
KoRplussomeletters
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
SuperSaiyanSasquatch
We try not to get into a land war with them though https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1dXIwa3NjdHpmeDVoM25wNHhwM3pyeGExbWVjdDRxdjNjc2lxYW9qMyZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/l2YWy7C9BvHZfmLCM/200w.webp
Bigblackdick69
EU seems like their new enemy.
BrockEffingSamson
Yeah, this one is several years old now.
Filanwizard
Can also say Iran and Hamas.
Clayman8
Change "Russians" to "Trans" and youre back in business actually saving kids. Add something about how so many US doctors have left (or better yet say "fired for being trans") and those morons will shit themselves from happiness
pilomotor
Their comment was originally posted on May 21, 2019.
JacaByte
Just exchange "Russia" and "China" with "Iran" and "North Korea." Easy.
doodlydoofus
Tell them it's the Ukrainians trying to weaken us.
Khaosus
Just replace Russia and China with "Hostile nation state actors", it's how I present to international teams and not trigger people.
AimingForAdorkable
Wait—why do they conspiracy-love the Russians now?
And why are the Chinese conspiracy-neutral-now?
GreedBrowsing
You're right, left wing politicians probably created the anti vax movement in the interest of selling more baby coffins to fund their campaign. /s
DianNaoChong
I can tell you, there's a lot of begrudging china, they just aren't the up front target at the moment, and also Trump can't do anything about them.
Oatmealman1
They also love the stupid Germans from the 30s. Not the good Germans with beer and pretzels, the stupid ones, with little fancy boy armbands that match for their little 'im afraid of everything that's different' club. Antivaxxers should be considered terrorists and extreme dangers and be locked up, away from the public. (Genuine allergies I can accept)
ssjalhazred
If they loved the Russians, Trump would be able to walk away from Ukraine without losing face with them. They don't; Russia is a problem he's supposed to solve with his genius art of the deal skills.
GeneralPrower
Adjust to whoever their nemesis of the week is and boom.
braddCommentSmuggler
Just go with woke Marxists using their college degrees to spread misinformation to weaken red states in preparation for civil war 2, electric boogaloo
SwissScars
It's the Undertakers & Body Snatchers.
justherefortheconfession
"Big Funeral"
bearstrap
Just change "Russian" and "Chinese" to "The Left" and "Europe" and that dog'll hunt
stryhf
Hell, Canada works now!
RetrogradeLlama
Excellent idea.
Geistbar
Europe doesn't have a reputation for that. You need something that'll worm its way into their brains better. Needs to be somewhere they've heard of, that could be easily seen as opposing them, and has people they don't like.
So non-white, non-christian especially, and ideally non-western as well. I'd think the perfect boogeyman to use on them today would be Iran.
SavageDrums
Or just "woke"
FelonyFerret
sometimes you don't even need to say anyone specific. "THEY" don't want you to know, but that's a psyop to weaken American citizens for an invasion..."
Luffian
All you have to do is blame "them". Never actually say who them actually is, and the nutter will fill in whatever blanks works best for them. Works more often than trying to pin down who you think the enemy of the day currently is.
onlyhalfghost
"them" is usually just the jews. In that long drawn out way that sounds a bit like a dramatic take on juice.
onlyhalfghost
(the rest of the time it's queer folks or brown folks.)
Amomani
Coastal elite globalists.
bearstrap
That's an excellent point. It's ALWAYS "them" what does it.
futureman3000
That's just what they want you to think
Catumi