MeisterKleister
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Great discussion about religion
One of the most constructive, civil, informative discussions on religion IMHO
Dan Dennett interviewed by Bill Moyers:
https://youtu.be/EUeQXmYVamA
His book: 'Breaking the Spell - Religion as a Natural Phenomenon':
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2067.Breaking_the_Spell
Lecture: 'Daniel Dennett: Breaking the Spell - Religion as a Natural Phenomenon' public lecture:
https://youtu.be/5WhQ8bSvcHQ
LadyStark
"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier..."-Dogma
ThatDwarfWhoStealsYourOpinions
I know plenty of atheists that have stopped thinking, too. Stop claiming that religion itself is dangerous. People are dangerous.
raidleadergutts
And religion gives people a pretext to be dangerous, so yeah, religion itself definitely IS dangerous. Removing that pretext will do wonders
icameinlikeafeckingball
Absolutely not at all. Murder and violence in the name of religion? Oppression of minorities and dissidents? People who do that are (1)
icameinlikeafeckingball
rotten to start with, if they didn’t have religion as an excuse they’d find something else. (2)
bufferkiller
I enjoy both of these humans thoughts and voices.
GingerOverlord
Me, too. It's interesting to hear both.
bufferkiller
Quite. :)
HydrochloricKitten
If you want to stop people thinking, all you need is a good catch phrase.
HydrochloricKitten
Religion? He just described modern politics.
Freudberg
assert this sentiment in any other context and get blasted, especially on this website. thanks for saying this.
HydrochloricKitten
I don't wear fire-retardant underwear for its comfort :)
Panzermeyer
This can clearly be used to describe humans in general, but even in U.S. politics religion is a driving force.
HydrochloricKitten
So is money, power, policy, fear, economics, trade, warfare, etc, and even when it is applied it's nearly equally split.
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HydrochloricKitten
No kidding. I'm kinda getting tired of that whole 'flawed humans' thing.
raidleadergutts
"modern"
modiglia
I welcome harsh critical thought concerning faith and any system of belief. And I'm still a Christian at the end of the day
atomaward2
Is Daniel Dennett on the front page!?
MeisterKleister
Yea, I love Dennett and his work and want more people to learn about him.
atomaward2
Dennett is brilliant, my favourate of the 4 horsemen
andyar
I always hear god will make things happen in someone's life, when the time is right, rather than going out and achieving what they want.
Kompi
This is a good response to that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUNcyyhXVlU
andyar
That is perfect.
Kompi
Right? I have faith but I try not to kid myself saying things will come without work. Sometimes it does but working betters the chances.
wemmew
Hannah Arendt said, that evil actions starts when the inner dialog stops. This is ofc simplified, but I only have 140 signs to explain it
ThereWillBeDownvotes
This sounds fantastically interesting to me. Thanks for sauce, OP!
birencall
I think there's many modern Christians that do think a lot about right and wrong. Im Christian and think a lot about not just what, but why.
HypnotoadIRL
He did specifically says it's not the majority of people.
iamkarlkingofducks
Me too, I love thinking about why. Had a sunday school teacher that introduced me to apologetics and loved it.
clintondixoutforharambe
I attend a bible college, and critical thinking is one of our main focuses.
Bricmpt
So, did they teach you about the blatant contradictions in the Bible? Or, the difference between myth and history? Curious.
nattanham
Same!
clintondixoutforharambe
Where do you attend?
BlueStringsAttached
Speak to the theologians in religious groups and you'll have far deeper conversations than you would with the laity. Kind of like (1/2)
wronggengirl
Yes! You can tell the small-minded bandwagon religious folks who don't have the heart to back up their reactionist statements a mile away.
BlueStringsAttached
speaking to well-schooled, thoughtful and philosophical atheists focused on morality, versus fighting with someone on r/atheism (2/2)
photonblaster
Moral of th story is don't mingle with peasants? :)
CorwinMacGregor
I feel that's a bit disingenuous to peasants. it is one thing to be poor and uneducated. quite another thing to be (willfully) ignorant
photonblaster
Yes. Like the peasants at the start of Monty pythons holy grail. Quite informed.
doihearanamen
She turned me into a newt!
muppetomine
(2/2) laying the smack down with the big bad daddio, then twisting in the wind with a piss bucket and a burrito - it's always lots of fun!
rectalprolapse
This. Some of my best conversations have been with pastors.
MeisterKleister
I've watched a ton of debates between an atheist and a theist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeZWp8aHqkobosrLwSF3L6YmKkdC5VBaI
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MeisterKleister
Al Sharpton? Where? I'm not sure what you're talking about.
MeisterKleister
And by theist, I mean theologians and pastors (shortened it 'cause of character limit). Many of these debates were really constructive.
bearsbeetsbattlestargalactica793414321
This is not always true. A Bible study done right raises a lot of questions and we dissect those questions together.
TheDivineUsersub
The problem is that a Bible study is worked off the writings of people who knew less about the world today than the average, Western teen.
bearsbeetsbattlestargalactica793414321
Quit trolling the slums of this post.
TheDivineUsersub
"Someone disagrees with me, he must be a troll..." Expert logic there, my friend.
bearsbeetsbattlestargalactica793414321
Literally everything ever written is now past tense. You could argue that any author knows less about the world at the time they wrote about
TheDivineUsersub
I ----am---- argueing that. It's not that I can, it's that I am. You literally just rewrote my point.
bearsbeetsbattlestargalactica793414321
So you're arguing all text is untrustworthy because it's limited to knowledge up until the point it was written. Why read anything then..
TheDivineUsersub
That's on oversimplification. When discussing texts written by men who didn't understand anything about virus, weather patterns, seismic -
andyar
Exactly. They can just say, something is the way it is, because god made it that way
planckstorch
That's not critical thinking. It's an opinion, well constructed though it may be.
DeadEndKing
We should be allowed to think and also allow others to have an opinion. Neither of which exists on this website.
Abnersun
I am not sure I agree. I am a Christian and seek the truth. I don't blindly follow just because. Maybe some do but the ones I know don't.
Seaview6
I don't care what other religious groups 'think' but I have noticed that we don't have groups of radical christians or jews etc going
Bricmpt
What?! You have not noticed the religious presence in the US military? They hold prayer meetings, for crying out loud. They blow up shit.
Seaview6
I'm not in America :-P and that's the military. They are told to do stuff by their government. As for the prayer meetings I have no idea.
Bricmpt
The far right Christians are the most likely to join the military here. Radical Christians are happy to blow up Muslims. Not all, of course
Seaview6
around blowing people up. Only the radicalised muslims doing that shit. So yes, I care what they think.
maplesyrupnwaffles
The importance if critical thinking isn't just for the religious, but will be one of biggest struggles of this generation
BayazTheBenevolent
*of every generation ever
ChaosLierLen637
Every generation.
Lionskull
"this generation" right.
gengumby
i like the point that april fools is the only day that everyone critically thinks about internet headlines
GingerOverlord
Of*
Klvngrdnr
This is why our church hosts a conference called think again every year. Its focus is on getting Christians to think critically
CtiticalThinking
http://imgur.com/gbzMUnn
TheBlackThorn3
I know very few atheists that think the moral teachings of Jesus were bad.
NextineX
I know many who would disagree. Jesus said many nice things. He also said a lot of hypocritical and bad things.
TheBlackThorn3
I agree with you on that.
NextineX
I guess I misunderstood you then. I thought you were saying most atheists think jesus' teachings were almost entirely good.
TheBlackThorn3
That isn't what I was trying to say but looking back I phrased it poorly. All I really wanted to say is that I know few atheists that think
Bricmpt
Spirituality is not religion. Morals are not exclusive to religions.
Notenoughwords1
I wonder what position religion will have in the not to distant future? As the average church go'ers are getting old
pandasmakemehappy
I don't know but my SO has been wanting to attend church lately and so we've been attending. Plenty of young people there.
JustAnotherPOG
A confounding factor there may be that the average person is getting older. I don't know the specific numbers though.
Cataleast
It will be interesting to see. The world is becoming more secular for sure, but I fear religion will never truly go away.
I2obiN
It'll still be there, as long as we tolerate the problems it creates.
MeisterKleister
Dennett addresses this question in one of his talks: https://youtu.be/5WhQ8bSvcHQ (Don't be put off by the title)
Bricmpt
Church attendance in the US has been in steady decline for many years.
Acornlad
As people age they become more religious. They go through a phase in young adulthood and usually end up returning after being married.
icameinlikeafeckingball
I think religion is like love: it’s a human thing, it can’t be killed with all the cynicism in the world, and it’s not as bad as its (1)
Notenoughwords1
I agree that religion most likely will never die out, but I think the mass of followers will in time be reduced.
icameinlikeafeckingball
Yeah, its position in modern society has changed a lot and probably will change further. I just don’t believe that “we should get rid (1)
icameinlikeafeckingball
of all religion” as some people say is either possible or desirable. (2)
icameinlikeafeckingball
worst cases lead people to believe. (2)
ButtWeightTheirSmores
This of course doesn't just apply to establishment faiths (I.e. Christianity). Blindly following ANYTHING with zero thought is dangerous.
UnevenElephant
bu-but I gotta get my daily dose of kardashian, sports, celebrity gossip, etc. *breaks down in corner*
somekindafuckingidiot
yeah, amusingly a lot of teenage reddit atheists fall into the exact same blind-following traps. scrutinize ALL things!
Verax
+1 for cheeky user name ;)
ButtWeightTheirSmores
+1 for punny use of "cheeky". :D
ihavealteredmyusernameagainprayidontalteritanyfurther
I can't really be bothered to think about what you just said, but I'm all in.
CaptainQuarkk
http://www.mypokecard.com/en/Gallery/my/galery/zSZH7A5fTrho.jpgo.jpg">http://www.mypokecard.com/en/Gallery/my/galery/zSZH7A5fTrho.jpg> || http://cdn.instructables.com/FG1/FA5W/GUO15JE5/FG1FA5WGUO15JE5.MEDIUM.jpg
RandomMcdude
Patriotism being just as scary
Attacker732
As with religion, it depends on how far it is taken. Although at least some trace of it is required for a nation to run smoothly.
thecolonels
Very true. Reading the 'scientific' reasoning behind Bob Proctors ramblings is terrifying to me.
PurplePixieUK
Many people need to identify with something bigger than themselves. If not religion, then it'll be something else.
MeisterKleister
I agree. http://imgur.com/41CjQbZ
isildur
But my fiftieth self-help book on living with mindfulness will solve my problems, I'm sure of it. It even comes with a free gong!
iJug27
Like following Hilary
atomaward2
Even people of none faith can have similar "follow the pipe player" traits
giraffpappa
My definition for the word "religion" is just that - blindly following anything with zero thought.
HalloIamherenow
Learning a bit about Soviet history this year and this happened with them under Stalin, which was an actively atheistic regime...
HalloIamherenow
... in fact they sought out openly religious people to put them in Gulags (Russian prison camps), where a large number of them died.
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beerire
Problem is that people follow most things by faith. For example, few actually understand the entire scientific debate about the climate.
Randomcomma
Not all faith is fundamentalism, though. IMO, some degree of faith is pretty much required to lead a satisfactory life.
YannYacobi
Trust, belief, hope, love... Agreed. The consequences of having Faith (in a theological context) are innumerable.
Randomcomma
(1) I feel like the line between them can be blurry at times. Maybe a good warning sign for any faith going too far would be thinking of
Randomcomma
(2) another group completely as an enemy, as that seems to be the most common problem of faith in general.
GingerOverlord
Yes! This +1
Twitchiopolis
Even science.
ABillionDucks
Like Imgur. :O
ninjarnia
You have to be able to see to upvote (viz. Not blind, just mindless!).
MyDragonHeartedSpirit
That's what the government wants... you... to... think? Hmm....
override367
it's a little worse with something like Islam that explicitly lacks free will. And also explicitly doesn't lack free will. Islam is weird.
Maniacxxl
They're all weird.
BayazTheBenevolent
Once you realize that 'Islam' is just the name for the collective of all islamic sub-religions it gets a little less confusing.
sumowoman
Islam isn't one huge religion where everyone thinks alike. We have some pretty sick Christian sects too.
Radiago
In regards to Christianity, the original usage of faith often referred not to a blind trust but a belief that was wholly prescribed to (1/?)
Radiago
After careful and critical thought and was therefore able to withstand scrutiny and debate. Faith was worthy of a foundation because (2/?)
Radiago
It was solidly built. Not like the sand so many of faith bury their heads in. (3/3
thecolonels
This is fucking messed up. In that case, you don't have faith. With no evidence, you are having 'blind trust'. How can you live like that?
ItsCaptain0bvious
Define "original". Are you implying that in the first years people were encouraged to question God and did not get burned at the stake? 1/2
ItsCaptain0bvious
In what universe was this the norm, rather than the "do as you're told, or you are a heretic/blasphemer" standard throughout the centuries?
sumowoman
Yeah, and still you go to hell for a variety of reasons.
jlist
Like "contraception is a sin, therefore I'll fuck my girlfriend without a condom, getting her pregnant, which is a bigger sin"
lLeGrandl
I don't think that getting her pregnant is any more of a sin than having sex. It is just more noticeable to others.
plainoldfool
I had a Western Civ professor who noted that back in the day, when Christians were thrown to the lions, procreation to expand the (1)
plainoldfool
the community's population was vital (if there are more if us then them, maybe we can survive), any sexual act that would not result in a(2)
plainoldfool
possible pregnancy was a greater sin. It was less of a sin to rape a nun than masterbation.
jlist
Right. My sister literally had one more child with the express desire that Catholics not lose influence in the coming generations.
jlist
Three children by three different fathers. Yet I'm the black sheep of the family because I sell porn (owner of J-List)
Moetorious
But, I like, really dig the Spurs.
CMcAwesomeville
I was waiting on someone to post something about a sports team. Did expect the Maple Leafs though....
ButtWeightTheirSmores
The Spurs are indeed worthy of their worship. Father Popovich grants forgiveness for your blind zealotry.
Moetorious
Pop Father, who art in playoffs, hallowed be thy game. Thy championship come, thy will be done, in finals as it is in preseason.
ButtWeightTheirSmores
Give us this day our daily nasty, and lead us not into injury rosters.
Moetorious
But deliver us from Golden State. For thine is the Parker, the Duncan, the Ginobili, forever and ever. Amen.
JugsMugsLadybugs
I like to think I'm a good Catholic because I went through DECADES of doubt and mistrust before I decided this is how I'm to be identified.
DeusCaritasEst
Same, although decades isn't quite plural for me. I've questioned practically everything & am not afraid to continue to do so. Good so far!!
isaaclw
It drives me crazy, but I wouldn't have it any other way.
batmonter
I remember when I was converting, one of the priests always told us before RCIA to, "Ask the hard questions. Satisfy your intellect."
BartimaeusTheFat
That's the best thing about being Catholic, the Church has actual answers for all those questions, and reasoning to back it up.
batmonter
Yep. As protestant-turned-atheist convert, being able to read back through Church history, get answers, and see the dots connect helped.
batmonter
Happy Holy Week, by the way. :)
Retsam19
I don't think religious people are any more or less likely to "stop thinking" than any other group of people. It's easy to cherry-pick.
BiteTheHandsThatThieve
He says it gives an excuse. Important distinction. Human nature is not to think, religion gives an easy excuse.
raidleadergutts
What? Human nature definitely IS to think, religion stifles that.
I2obiN
Depends how religious they are. I think there's a lot of people that describe themselves as religious but don't believe in their religion
biolologist
non-religious people don't have a book of dogma they can point to as an excuse to "stop thinking" though.
HydrochloricKitten
Yes they do, many in fact. Political parties, activist organizations, predominate news organizations, governments, even sipping anti-vaxers
Retsam19
Not a single published book, no, but I've found that non-religious people have no trouble finding dogma to believe anyway.
MeisterKleister
I agree. But the thing is that your belief is less likely to get challenged if you just say it's your faith.
HydrochloricKitten
Less likely?? Not in my many decades on the planet, not in the US.
Retsam19
Maybe a decade ago that was true, but being religious is not popular right now. "Oh you're religious, you must hate women, gays and science"
HydrochloricKitten
That hasn't been true in the last 40 years, it's just become idiotically acceptable to openly hate people of faith in the last decade.
MeisterKleister
Doesn't sound too great either. It's about stopping to honor people who stop thinking -no matter whether their reasons are religious or not.
MeisterKleister
I'm pretty sure we are in agreement here.
Retsam19
Augustine, Martin Luther, C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton, Pope John Paul II; all these people are honored because of their thinking.
Retsam19
I've never met a religious person who honored another religious person who stopped thinking. Quite the opposite, actually.
RagingOyster
My religion doesn't tell me to stop thinking. It tells me to aspire to be Christ-like. Belief in God doesn't preclude critical thought...
SPHINKTERSNEESE
God did not ask Adam to consider, weigh his options before eating from the tree of knowledge. It was just a matter of blind obedience.
Bricmpt
It sure does for most religious followers. Like how they ignore inconsistancies in their book. Or, think myths are true.
SPHINKTERSNEESE
blind obedience is a moral portrayed over and over again in the bible.
TradersNeverProsper
Do you presuppose that a God exists?
langhston
Everyone presupposes. From the point we assume we can interact with logic in a meaningful way, which we all do, we presuppose (1/2)
langhston
The amount of everyone's beliefs that originate in personally verified claims is similar across the board. Don't assume you are neutral.
SPHINKTERSNEESE
A Scientist makes theories on things without knowing it is true or not (before finding evidence). A Belief in God is quite the opposite.
TradersNeverProsper
I try not to assume and I agree for the most part, but you did not answer my question.
langhston
About presupposing? Isn't assent implied in "Everyone presupposes"?
Cassandralala
I'm a Christian. I wrestle with many aspects of my faith, and I wish people knew that it's not always easy to believe what I believe.
WhenNothingGoesRightGoLeft
Genuinely Curious: What aspects trouble you? Do you still follow the rules you don't agree with?
Cassandralala
There are many, too many for a comment section. But my questions and doubts are never strong enough to overcome my faith.
WhenNothingGoesRightGoLeft
Interesting. I'm bisexual, and it's always been difficult to find a church where I could be open. I've found one locally, but it's 1/2
WhenNothingGoesRightGoLeft
definitely caused some doubts 2/2
Cassandralala
That's an issue where I think the church has done a lot of harm, and is something I struggle with a lot with my feelings versus my beliefs.
Cassandralala
And yes, I follow "rules", even when I don't want to. A very mild example is gluttony. I want it to be okay to be a glutton, but it's not.
HypnotoadIRL
All atheists know it's not easy to beleive something for no reason. That's why they dont.
Cassandralala
Religious people have many reasons, otherwise we wouldn't be so numerous.
SquirrelyTunic
I mean yea, if your parents count as many.
Cassandralala
Only one parent, and she didn't make the decision for me. I did that on my own, thanks. Plenty of Christians weren't raised religiously.
I2obiN
Nope people just have a herd mentality
Cassandralala
Culturally, sometimes, but in countries where Christians are persecuted, it's exactly the opposite.
I2obiN
it's still usually a group of Christians being persecuted
Cataleast
Reasons like dogmatism, indoctrination, peer pressure, to name a few...
modestlouse
You're basically threatened into following.. You can be a Christian or you will be tortured in a lake of fire for all eternity after death.
Cassandralala
I'm an adult making decisions for myself, but thank you for your input.
Cataleast
But those are the reasons religious people are so numerous. Especially the second one combined with a religious upbringing.
HypnotoadIRL
Sorry, no good reason such as evidence
Cassandralala
Come on, I'm not here to argue with anyone. We could comment for years and never get anywhere.
HypnotoadIRL
I'm just saying that you being numerous says nothing about your belief being rational or not.
lphotogurl
People use a lot of excuses to stop thinking. Religion is only one. Judging by the number of great thinkers who are/were Christian,... (1)
thecyprus
Yes but many great minds of atheists are being discovered now. Don't forget not too long ago being religious was a must, sometimes by law.
pandasmakemehappy
Irrelevant. The point was that many great minds are/were religious. That doesn't mean that there aren't great minds that are not
thecyprus
Oh I'm not denying that, I'm just saying even if they weren't religious they may have just said they were to avoid the hassle.
lphotogurl
That assumption is anecdotal. Do you have evidence that any of these people didn't want to be religious? High level thinkers dont tend..
lphotogurl
...to be intimidated, or at least not indefinitely, either. Also, persecution has a tendency to cause church growth, not decline. People..
thecyprus
I was thinking towards Galileo (I think) that argued some Church-taught theories that he disproved and was called a heretic & threatened.
lphotogurl
...Jewish, and Muslim, it is clear that religion and thinking are quite compatible. See article in reply for a few examples.
SirAlbertNewton
The greatest scientists ever walked on this planet were muslims.
feedusthefetus
Peoe were outcast for not being religious in those times though... Not a good argument
lphotogurl
People are always outcast for no good reason. It's what we do. Religion is a reason, but historically there is usually money involved.
feedusthefetus
That's not really the point I was trying to make but okay. I agree. It's the principle of using anecdotal evidence in an argument
lphotogurl
Your evidence is also anecdotal. Do you have evidence that any of these people didn't want to be religious. High level thinkers dont tend..
pandasmakemehappy
Perfectly valid argument. Don't dismiss it because it doesn't fit your narrative
lphotogurl
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2013/the-rich-historic-roll-call-of-great-christian-thinkers-and-scientists/
illegalacorn
Of course, that's very easy to compile when 95% or more of all people in an entire continent were Christians for millenia.
lphotogurl
That's kind of a ridiculous argument considering 95% of the planet has believed in some form of religion since the beginning of history.
illegalacorn
yes that's what I was saying. It's a confounding factor in everything.
lphotogurl
If they didn't take it upon themselves to think, Europe would still be in the dark ages. Plus that list doesn't include thinkers of other..
lphotogurl
religions, of which there are many.
Heavymettle
I think Isaac Newton alone would be a good enough example lol. That man was crazy smart.
Nate09214
Give me a break! In Newton's time, he would've been tormented and killed for professing a disbelief in God.
Heavymettle
That is false information that anti religious individuals like to tout around. There were many scientist living just fine. You probably
tehflan
Newton literally wrote books about theology. He didn't just claim to be a Christian to fit in.
Heavymettle
attribute the Dark Ages to the church as well.
Heavymettle
The church never burned a scientist and was actually the main financial supporter for sciences for a long time. Math, linguistics, etc
Imnotfollowingyou
As a Christian, I agree with this. We are still supposed to think.
Flyndaran
That's cute that you may actually believe that.
ParanoidWithGoodCause
if you follow a creator god then learning as much about the universe he created so as to better worship seems logical.
ThatFatBooty
Legit the reason why I'm so fascinated with the cosmos.
CelticScribe
I believe Galileo once said that he didnt believe God would've put all the effort to designing the human mind just so we can forgo its use.
warick
Agreed, but a large percentage of the (world) population just doesn't have the raw brainpower to fully understand their faith (or lack of).
BreadyStinellis
Arguably, that's why they're faithful.
warick
And (also arguably), it's possible to find great value in your personal faith without being able to derive it from first principles.
MagicallyMike
I don't understand why there is a stereotype that says we ought not to think. I've always been encouraged to ask questions & search.
doihearanamen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0218GkAGbnU
szepasszony
*so long as your conclusions don't contradict the Bible
theirishinquisition
It is the struggle to think logically with faith, and to perceive the world through the lens of that path of thought, otherwise its notfaith
Cere4l
Sure, but do you really think the ones that dont. suddenly start thinking because theres no religion? theyll just listen to someone else
lostnortherner
Yes! And ask questions, questions, questions. Constantly, grow, evolve and learn. Faith isn't a stopping point.
personwhotakesfleetfootwork
Yeah but I know this SUPER IGNORANT person in my school who is a complete asshole to anyone who hates Donald Trump.
Kizsurian
Sounds a lot like my neighbor...
personwhotakesfleetfootwork
I don't hate Trump, I just hate the fact that he's the most ignorant human being I've ever met, the friend. Not Trump. Although...
SPHINKTERSNEESE
AdamandEve parable? The tree was literally called knowledge and God forbid us to eat from it. Message is blind obedience from the beginning
SPHINKTERSNEESE
A Christian that thinks, must spend a huge portion of their religious thought trying to make excuses for the evil God of the old testament.
szepasszony
*obligatory comment about historical context with no explanation as to why an omniscient God would be limited by human cultural norms.
BigDAC
This is why I love Pope Francis; He actually thinks.
MerToo
He doesn't think hard enough to be able to abandon Catholicism, but he does seem to be the most likable & reasonable Pope I've ever seen.
pandasmakemehappy
Thinking has nothing to do with abandoning your faith no matter what the reddit fedora circlejerk wants you to believe
MerToo
Post-godbothering is where it's at these days no matter how much you'd like to equate it with fedora-wearing reddit circle-jerkers.
NK892
Have you read the writings of his predecessors Benedict XVI or John Paul II? They were as great of thinkers and theologians as Francis
MonkeyWithASpatula
As a non-religious individual, I'll give you an upvote for your thinking Pope
LetMePickMyTeethThenHaveMoreChips2
And Adam and Eve were the first people?
PaintedSlate
Most Christians aren't strict literalists, at least in the U.S. That story is about the relationships among the divine, nature, and people.
ParanoidWithGoodCause
we've traced the common ancestors of all living humans and named the male set after Adam and the female set after Eve so yes.
Felextheminimal
And they had two sons
lordkickass
Don't forget Seth
DrFartstheTRex
A lot more than that. Gen 5:4 says they had other sons and daughters. Implies they had many. Not religious here, just majored in it
lucillethelooseseal
And somewhere along the line.....incest
applicable
Incest wasnt declared wrong until Leviticus 18, presumably because of genetic purity. It's a big discussion beyond 140 characters
LowfatGooch
Don't quote me on this, but I was told that Islam(and other religions) must not be blindly followed, you have to understand WHY your 1/?
kanyeweststolemynipples
"I was told that Islam(and other religions) must not be blindly followed" -Jorge The Snail
LowfatGooch
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
LowfatGooch
Following them and understand the reasoning behind them, if you don't, you're not really practicing the religion. 2/3
LowfatGooch
I hope I didn't offend anyone with my comment lmao
Kompi
Its not offensive at all. In fact the Quran states many times"... so you may think.","why won't you think?", "that they might reflect upon."
celestedrake
Not offended; I agree. If we blindly follow, we might be following those who lie and/or convince us to do evil. Or are stupid.
SomeGuyFromTheMostIsolatedishCityOnEarth
As someone from a Christian family this makes a lot of sense to me and it's not offensive at all
MagicallyMike
My religion actually encourages us to look for the why behind various commandments and doctrines. Very few things taken on faith alone.
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MagicallyMike
I don't think religion and science are so different. Just different viewpoints and sets of rules.
NextineX
They're ENTIRELY different. One is a systematic way of understanding the universe. The other is dogma and unsubstantiated claims.
MagicallyMike
They're both doing their best to understand the universe. Religion that relies only on faith isn't very helpful.
szepasszony
So long as your conclusions don't differ from those of the Bible... That's not exactly free inquiry.
MagicallyMike
There are many translations of the Bible. Also, the info in there is so scant in parts, we certainly don't have the full story.
szepasszony
The Bible is scant in some parts,completely wrong in others.I can pick out good parts from it (and any other mythology), but I'm an atheist.
szepasszony
You're recommending people pick the Bible translation that best matches what they already believe?
MagicallyMike
I'm recommending people do their research, study, and then make up their mind, while still being open minded. The Bible can't replace (1/2)
MagicallyMike
A personal relationship with God. Sadly, I fear some think it does. Reading is only 1/2 of it. You have to live the teaching. (2/2)
SPHINKTERSNEESE
Hypothetically, if/when you realize it's all bullshit and that we are related to chimps, how will your church react?
MagicallyMike
My Church doesn't have a problem with evolution. If God wanted to create the human race, who says he didn't do it through evolution?
SPHINKTERSNEESE
The creation story is riddled with statements like creating woman from a rib, creating birds before land animals, light before stars.
MagicallyMike
One of the tricky parts about religion is telling symbolic from literal. Some of what you mention, I suspect is symbolic, not literal.
Darx94
The reason Jesus came back in the first place was because people were blindly following the laws without thinking about them.
NickGeer
In just 2 days we managed to fuck things up.
lphotogurl
But then, it turns out that that was the plan all along after God realized we were so fucked up we couldnt possibly fix it.
lucillethelooseseal
Essentially, yes. We're crazy good at it
Flyndaran
Faith is the exact opposite to thought. Belief without and despite evidence is NOT rational, but definition no matter how popular.
mywhatevermonkey
Your first sentence is false. That isn't a logical statement.
beerire
Faith in Catholic tradition REQUIRES thought and contemplation.
freyjaboo
The whole of quantum entanglement is kinda based on unseen mathematics...As is most of our knowledge of how space works
JangoDarkSaber
There is so much more to faith then just believing in a higher power.
Cataleast
But that is at the core of the whole thing, is it not?
lphotogurl
Yes it is. But if God exists & he is the creator, shouldn't it be? But, freewill gives us the choice to be a god unto ourselves while here..
lphotogurl
...or choose to ackowledge him. He doesn't force himself on you, but if he is, in fact, God he has the right.
MadDogMorgan
I really don't get why your downvoted. Isn't faith the believe in things without evidence by definition?
lphotogurl
And there is evidence, but not good enough for some. Science, math, astronomy - look to your Renaissance thinkers & Romans 1:20
sumowoman
Faith is like a huge frame story that a person can fit facts in. I'm not religious, but I get the need for a story that gives order in chaos
SexyStarfish
Gen 22:2-8
szepasszony
It's almost as if the 3 big monotheisms were all based on an insane psychopath. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYvcc8ui3CM
lphotogurl
When you say this, you are engaging in the very same hate speech Christians are accused of repeatedly.
szepasszony
Pointing out facts in the Bible =/= hating Christians. The Bible isn't immune to criticism, and doing so isn't 'hate speech'.
lphotogurl
I'm pretty sure calling Hitchens or Dawkins a psychopath would be unacceptable.
lphotogurl
Human sacrifice was not uncommon during this time period. That Abraham was told not to go through with it is the bigger surprise.
ridetheshoopuf
"God works in mysterious ways" is not really thinking but rather a way of escaping from it.
MadDogMorgan
He/she didn't say that though?
lphotogurl
I see what you are saying there, but "God working in mysterious ways" as an invitation to think, to go down the rabbit hole & see what...
ridetheshoopuf
for those missing the point: the sentence is typical religious response to "why bad things happen to good people?" That's dismissing reason.
CookingBaconDrunkAndNaked
Thats also a hymn and not in the bible at all....just saying.
doihearanamen
Retort of someone who thinks they know it all. Even children accept they don't know their parents' reasons all the time.
HappyWaldoandtheSaltyMonkey
I have said that. Then I have attempted to understand those ways. Its the same as saying the universe is mysterious and then studying it.
ridetheshoopuf
problem is, the sentence is the typical religious response to "why bad things happen to good people?" there, answer is dismissing reason.
HappyWaldoandtheSaltyMonkey
I see your point, but I honestly have never heard that response in regards to that question. That's a tough question regardless of religion.
thecyprus
People love to praise their god for everything that goes right in the world but dismiss him from everything that goes bad.
Kompi
Things like death and tragedies are seen as challenges, what believers define good/evil is our response to them. We believe in compensation.
SomeGuyFromTheMostIsolatedishCityOnEarth
And that my friend is someone who has failed to see the point of praise as a true Christian, knowing the good&bad are from God to teach us
SomeGuyFromTheMostIsolatedishCityOnEarth
Granted that sounds exactly like "God works in mysterious ways" sorry not sure how else to explain though
iamkarlkingofducks
Yup, people forget about Isaiah 1:18 and 1 Peter 3:15. We are not supposed to blindly follow.
nobodyinparticular
There are as many and more verses going the other way. Essentially, every instance encouraging faith encourages blind faith.
jsktrogdor
2/3 "willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land. But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for"
lphotogurl
Proverbs 23:23, too. I think there are more as well although, I'm currently drawing a blank.
lphotogurl
2 Timothy 2:14-16 is another.
jsktrogdor
3/3 "the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." It's says the exact opposite, really. It says if you disagree with god, he'll fucking kill you.
AntiPiety
Thank you sir
illegalacorn
lol nice summary
blak
+1'd for the summ
GraphicsInterchangeFormat
Sounds good to me.
SomeGuyFromTheMostIsolatedishCityOnEarth
It's not as simple as that. I'm not a Christian but I've studied the bible enough to know there isnt as much black/white as people think 1
dbrsong
Thank you! Every one says the bible condones slavery! And It does not! God allowed us to rule over ourselves, we chose slavery God 1\2
dbrsong
Simply tells us how to live and deal with the world we created for ourselves, that's the whole bible.
SomeGuyFromTheMostIsolatedishCityOnEarth
There is so much symbolism! because of that you have to think hard about the message that the bible is trying to share, Ecclesiastes is a 2
SomeGuyFromTheMostIsolatedishCityOnEarth
Perfect example of this 3
jsktrogdor
1/3 Neither of those versus really say anything about thinking for yourself... In fact, Isaiah 1:18 is followed immediately by: "If ye be"
lphotogurl
As for reasoning with God, I would go with Jacob wrestling with him in Gen.32. It's a common theme. Even Christ did so in the garden.
iamkarlkingofducks
Also, if you want to message and actually talk about it instead of being limited by the character limit I'm up for a discussion
ImPickingUpWhatYourePuttingDown
to me it means understanding why you follow. this can partner with scientific and social understanding.
iamkarlkingofducks
I agree. Yeah, growing up I didn't think about it, but as a grew I asked more questions and found answers
lphotogurl
Remember the Peter verse is from the time of the early church. The church is new and neither Jewish nor Pagan. It is the new thinking.
iamkarlkingofducks
How does that change the preceding part of reasoning with God? And what if he's right and you still dont listen?
jsktrogdor
It didnt say anything about "reasoning with god" in that way. It used the word "reason," but not in that context.
iamkarlkingofducks
Isaiah is quoting God "Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord,"rest of the verse quoting God" so that tells me God wants to
iamkarlkingofducks
reason with us. This is the version I'm reading that has quote marks https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%201&version=NKJV
whydoievengotothissite
There seems to be a confusion between faith and blind faith. I'd suggest looking at Fides et Ratio and Aquinas' or Craig's works.
TheDivineUsersub
The problem with any kind of faith is that it can be blinding because that's kind of what "belief" does. Without empirical evidence, -
TheDivineUsersub
- it's just a blanket supported only by tradition. Having faith inherently influences a mind to accept a reality without some form of proof.
paul289
I liken it to trusting an engineer to design a building. You have faith in their ability to prevent it from collapsing on you.
MeisterKleister
I don't think that's relevant. He specifically talks about people honoring others for stopping thinking because they call it their *faith*.
doihearanamen
it's definitely relevant. Everyone has faith in something, or the lack of something. Call it what you like, it's true.
raidleadergutts
I think you meant to say everyone has faith, or the lack of faith. There is no such thing as faith in the lack of something.
doihearanamen
Wrong. You have faith God exists, or you have faith that God doesn't. You choose to live your life based on the faith (trust) you hold to.
MeisterKleister
E.g.: I remain unconvinced that the defendant is guilty. That doesn't mean I believe he is innocent. And it doesn't mean I know either way.
MeisterKleister
"Not true" & "false" aren't the same. This is a common mistake in thinking called False Dilemma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
MeisterKleister
It may be important, but I don't see how it relates to the discussion. And I disagree, because I don't have faith.
MeisterKleister
I have reasonable expectations based on experience. I have trust that has been earned.
MeisterKleister
Your argument doesn't work in my mother tongue (German) because we have no word for faith. It's translated as "trust" or "religious belief".
doihearanamen
Trust is a perfectly acceptable synonym.
MeisterKleister
The problem is that a false equivocation was implied: everyday trust = religious belief. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation
HypnotoadIRL
Faith is belief based outside of evidence and proof so no, not everyone has faith.
doihearanamen
That's not even close to what faith is. You have *faith* that a chair will support you every time you sit down.
HypnotoadIRL
If that's what you want to call it. But the "faith" that a chair will hold you is much different than the faith religious people have.
HypnotoadIRL
The word faith has two definitions in the dictionary. Same word, two different meanings. You can't compare the two.
doihearanamen
Or you may say you have *faith* that God doesn't exist, and it's just as rational/irrational as the one who has faith that God does.
raidleadergutts
"Having faith that god doesn't exist" means you hope for it. You seem to have a serious lack of understanding with complete lack of faith.
HypnotoadIRL
Umm, atheists don't say that god doesn't exist. Atheist is the lack of belief in a god or rejection of the claim of a god.