Firestar002
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Given how AI data centers are just hogging power and water and the such, I’m just thinking “be pretty cool if this happened”.
But like the title says, I’m tired, literally just woke up. Thought I’d post this as I’m eating breakfast.
joble
Person who lives in northern Europe, one of those socialist countries. That just sounds extra steps. All infrastructure should be government owned, heavily supervised and regulated to keep consumer prices in bay. But no, you are bringing that s**t here as well. Damn I hate this world sometimes.
Eyeetsass
Citizens use the utility to live. Data centers use the utility for profit. They should absolutely pay more, and maybe even some fucking taxes.
rotinaj
You mean... taxing industries and growth markets to enhance the growth of everything? That doesn't sound like it maximizes profit this quarter.
EscalatorCongestion
How about just a normal rate... right now they pay less than
Firestar002
Ahem….
FeChefImgur
Problem is that the electricity companies WANT the data centers as customers because they are high users and so they make more money off them. Even with the discounts they likely give them to attract them as customers in the first place. If there is increased demand, them the supply will rise to meet the demand (in theory).
newsguycraigevans
It would be nice if they treated data centers like corporations treat regular customers. Here's a great rate (for 6 months) and now that you're locked in a contract after 6 months we'll jack up the price and start including hidden fees.
Psionickitten
At least in America, the tax payers are actually footing the bill. Gotta love oligarchy...
FairweatherHobbyist
So that's not strictly true. It's the ratepayers who are footing it which is still wrong but a byproduct of utility commissions asleep at the wheel. If this was traditional industrial demand they'd sign a long term bilateral contract with the utility which the utility would then use to secure financing for plant construction. Instead they've discovered they can get utility commissions to agree to rate increases plus markup across all users.
SedatedSl0th
The commodity version of taxing the rich. This is why it will never happen.
OxfordWriter
Data centres should build their own damn power supplies and donate the excess power to the local grid.
valen00
Microsoft I think it was is reactivating 3 mile island (from memory, some old nuclear plant) for exactly this reason.
ConfusedConda
I think they really would just need to charge them normal rates, instead of the deep discounts. Especially, cities looking to entice companies to relocate may offer cheap or even free water as one of the enticements. Most water companies are city owned and operated. The pricately owned ones would not be as likely to do that.
Then, as @KalmaWallu (from Finland) said, there are plenty of less wasteful ways to cool them other than single use fresh water.
Skawomplious
Not just data centers - there should be a progressive scale for all water and power users. Keep rates low for residential and small business, and get steeper fast for larger users.
TerribleBot
j4gr
They don’t create very many jobs, and most of those don’t pay a ton.
Telemapus
Water and power should be nationalised. Or at least state-owned. Change MY mind.
TheNotGreatDane
And there should be a 1000% tax on fueling private jets.
Quebeker
They get the bulk discount price because fuck regular people that’s why
PantLord
I’d modify that a bit. There should be no water or power companies. Necessities like that should be nationalised and the government/public should charge the data centres 10x the rate.
valen00
You know imgur comes out of datacenters too right?
PantLord
Oh well then I guess data centres should be allowed to use up our natural resources without restriction then. Silly me.
valen00
Your false dichotomy is false. You are essentially hating on a type of building that provides services to others that you use. I think most people didn't even know DC's existed before AI hate came along despite them still being on generally the same track energy consumption wise as they were historically. If you hate AI then just say that. Hating on the building that it is in is silly.
cousteau
Just ensure that everyone can afford the bare minimum of the limited resources they need to survive, and everyone else who abuses them can pay extra. If it were not a vital resource then yeah sure, charge everyone the same and let the rich use as much as they want of it. But if it is necessary for life, you need to put controls in place to ensure everyone can get them.
euphoricopportunity
10x? Naw. Just require the data centers to be entirely on renewable power and water-table neutral. And cool their water before releasing it in a river if the do release it.
MisterBrahanovich
Or….we could just blow them up and get rid of them.
LoonyBoBdammitwhotookmyname
Said it in a comment about a month or two ago, will say it again: Notably large datacenters should have to generate their own carbon-zero power and set up their own reservoir for water. This should be law, a required part of construction approval. They can sell excess to the public but should not be allowed to do the reverse. Can't afford it? Sounds like a problem for you, not us.
Firestar002
Only problem is it won’t be zero emission.
Although…. If your data center is right next to a hydro electric dam…. lol. Infinite water power. XD. Just gotta pump the water back UP.
18booma
Water and electricity companies shouldn't exist. It should be produced by the government with insourced labor. As for charging them more, would they be able to exploit neocolonial countries and fuck up their environment instead? Or do these data centers need to be close/within the countries where they offer services? If they need to be physically nearby, then increased pricing might just work. If they can export to exploit, you're just moving the heatsource to elsewhere in the atmosphere.
Firestar002
Within most likely.
TheobromineAddict
Not to mention bitcoin factories.
HelikaformerNubisKnight9
If companies were at least charged the same as normal people... here in Germany Coca Cola buys the tap water for a fraction of the price we pay for it. And they make billions out of it selling it back to us. Don't buy from the big beverage companies, no matter if it's Coca Cola, Pepsi, Nestlé, Evian or Volvic etc. They rip the people of where they get their water from. Buy your drinks as local as you could!
houghten
or just refuse them service for the good of everybody else
waspentalive
Then the AI companies just build their own data centers, with whatever two extras you'd care to name.
houghten
I name a self-destruct system, and a radio tower that constantly broadcasts a list of their crimes
FeChefImgur
The people making the decisions want the business though, so they get put in. From what I understand a lot of large DC locations are based on who offers the companies the cheapest options for power/water/land/tax.
Badprenup
Plus while there are data centers (too many) that are dedicated to useless AI slop, most still contribute value to society overall.
HonestCommentFarmer
It's sort of the reverse of the Net Neutrality argument.
eppykaze
Not a stupid idea, a rather good idea to fund the build up of the grids to support those centers needs
Sensiblyinteresting
The CEOs are probably invested in the companies to keep the prices low
Firestar002
:)
MinervaMeThis
Except in our area they want to build lines through neighborhoods to power such data centers, and the cost to build those lines go to the local consumers.
Firestar002
Hmmm…. Are you able to use those lines? Or is it a separate line?
nclu
imo, natural resources consumed should be taxed since extracting them takes from us all. And that includes the atmosphere and anything emitted into it. Water should pay a rate that's delivered as a dividend / ubi to all those in the watershed. Consume more, pay everyone more. And as you say, pay for infrastructure like grid upgrades.
TheAnswerWasAlwaysMoreLube
Water and power. Like the Tank girl company?
KR1570F
But won't someone please think of the poor poor billionaires making the world a worse place with that AI? How can they afford to lose even a tiny portion of the money they are so desperate to steal from everyone
HandoB4Javert
"poor billionaires"
NeurodivergenceMedley
I was going to come here and say something like this, but you said it better than I would have.
Probably needs an /s, though, or someone will become utterly convinced you're being serious
Firestar002
Those “billionaires” can just pull themselves up by their bootstraps like the majority of us are.
(I like the idea of using the term ‘billionaire’ as a slur for “person who has no morals or values aside from money.”)
historycat
Water, power. Internet should be publicly owned
Samja192
Considering the increased demand forces the price up for everyone, this might not be a bad idea
Firestar002
:)
Whatdoyousaytoanicecupoftea
10 percent of all data centre profits should be ploughed into grid and infrastructure.
The sheer uplift to carry this whilst attempting net zero...those fuckers shouldn't be allowed a free rude
oddmog
Definitely give them a free rude, fuckers. Free ride, not so much. But yeah they're using power and water on a scale they really should be building their own power plants just for grid stability.
1stDrunkJoe
Many of them are converting existing plants to nuclear or just building their own but they'll probably only be ready after the regular consumers' bill has skyrocketed.
Whatdoyousaytoanicecupoftea
No letting them build their own. That's incentive for setting up private networks.
KalmaWallu
Data center engineer here... using massive amounts of water to cool the thingies is not only wasteful, it's just pure laziness and simply stupid. Here in Finland, cooling towers may sometimes be used as backups for dry cooling, but not as a main cooling solution. And we'd have the water to run them. You likely wouldn't get an environmental permit to use water for the purpose.
Whatdoyousaytoanicecupoftea
Sweeping assumption here...but a lot of these data centres aren't in places that are as naturally...er....cold as Finland?
valen00
There are a number of datacenters popping up in places that are cold with geothermal power available. Also a few that are close to the ocean dump their heat there rather than into the air. (There are of course still issues with putting heat into the ocean but it is more energy efficient than dumping to air and doesn't waste fresh water.)
spittytrinkles
Why do we need these Data Centers? Do we want more AI?
valen00
You know Data Centers do more than AI right? Where do you think this website comes from? Last I checked it was from AWS which is one of the largest operators of DCs globally.
LokJok
They're building a data center in Tucson, AZ (Project Blue), which is in the desert. The logic os that it's away from most natural disasters. They will of course use water for cooling, the deserts most valuable resources. They argue that they will use grey water, but *only* after new piping is built, after the data center itself is complete.
KalmaWallu
Yeah, but the hotter areas usually have less water available, too, and cooling them with methods that do not require water to be evaporated are still feasible, although rather energy intensive. Just bring you non latency dependent loads to the Nordics, we'll take good care of your gear, and even reuse the heat. :)
Whatdoyousaytoanicecupoftea
Cheers! This was really interesting. The heat reuse is used for broader district heating, right?
KalmaWallu
That's the easiest way, and also saves the most CO2 emissions. There are other ways to use it, but locations with existing district heating are the best options from sustainability point of view. About 35% of Finns have homes heated by district heating, for example, and Sweden and Denmark have even higher percentages.
quasarvoyager2
One thing I've never been able to figure out... even if you use water, why can't they used a closed loop coolant system like a fridge or a car engine where the coolant just goes round the system and heat is exchanged.. and could be used for other things like heating or thermal engines. Why do they need a supply of fresh water? Surely they can re-use the same coolant over and over again?
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Firestar002
Or liquid nitrogen? Isn’t that stuff super cold too?
BishlamekGurpgork
Closed loop systems don't lose energy in phase change during evaporation, so they must exchange heat with cooler air. This means that performance drops as outside temperature rises. You could actively cool the water, but that tends to be very energy intensive, and at that point you might as well just cool the airflow.
valen00
They can and do. It requires larger radiators and more energy in fans to cool them but there's no inherent reason it can't be done. (In some extremely hot environments it may become impractical unless they went to 2 stage cooling but generally that would only be for a limited number of days per year. Still possible however) That said AI workloads are generally very latency insensitive. Shipping your query to somewhere cold and geothermally powered is totally viable
OBM1
I heard that the trade off is between doing the right thing re water conservation/ cooler regions versus the addition cost of the transition lines for the power supply and the cables for the data.
valen00
You won't ship power from somewhere warm to somewhere cold for a data center. (at least air temperature wise) you generate the power there. There are some locations in canada that are being started now that have geothermal power available and are cool year round. Some even to the point of not needing AC at all which is like a 20-50% cost saving. The data cable cost almost doesn't matter. It hasn't been done before because we've never had something that wanted this much processing power that/
valen00
was also quite so insensitive to latency. If you wanted to ship web pages even, 100ms of extra delay actually has a noticeable reduction in sales. The whole reason amazon web services exists is basically based on getting their webservers physically closer to customers reducing latency increased sales. For an AI workload, adding even 200ms to a text interaction isn't going to be noticeable. For training you could put it on the moon and it wouldn't matter (~2.5 seconds latency)
Meowsma
"I'd have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling Second Law of Thermodynamics!"
Actual answer: because cooling at that scale would require massive infrastructure and up-front costs.
spittytrinkles
Ugh. Costs.
InTangier
Sounds like it's a problem huge data centres should have, then.
Meowsma
I agree! Even though my employer's business is heavily propped up by selling chillers and cooling towers to data centers, haha.
InTangier
It's not like there isn't a market for more efficient cooling or heating systems, right? If companies could get away with cheap and somewhat workable cooling solutions, you'd be stuck installing ceiling fans and cracking open windows!
ThingsThatDontJustifyGenocide
Because every single system needs massive amounts of cooling, and evaporative cooling is far easier for datacenters than having to actually dump that heat somewhere
quasarvoyager2
Thanks, I figured it was a cost/laziness thing, but never had it so concisely confirmed.
AVerySillyPuppy
As simple as not building the other half of the "closed loop" to save cost, while also gaining efficiency like running a car with no muffler
Badprenup
What about looping it back into the main water supply? Could a data center pull water out of the main at point A, run it through the data center to perform the cooling operations, then feed back into the water main at point B where it cools from mixing back into the colder water in the main?
zimirken
That would be a huge contamination risk
Firestar002
Contamination of what? Or from what?