ConstantineVKopronymos
97879
1765
104
I was inspired to do this post based on a comment thread on this post http://imgur.com/gallery/g71JM regarding the use of the word Nazi. It’s something I’ve been thinking about for a while: how often terms like Socialism, National Socialism, and Communism are used interchangeably in our political discourse - even though these systems are very different from each other.
This post is mainly going to look at the ECONOMIC principles of Nazism rather than the entire ideology. Many of these beliefs are already familiar to us: Antisemitism, white nationalism, the cult of violence, and I don’t think need to be retread. Instead, I want to focus on the parts of Fascism/Nazism that are most often misunderstood.
A quick note on the relationship between Fascism, Nazism, and National Socialism. National Socialism and Nazism are the same thing. “Nazi” is simply an abbreviation based on the German pronunciation of “national” (as in Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei). Nazism is a type of Fascism. Nazism is unique in its focus on anti-Semitism and white supremacy, but otherwise shares all the beliefs of Fascism. For simplicity’s sake, when referring to the political ideology of Hitler and the Nazis, I will only use the term Nazism.
Lots of people try to simplify Socialism to mean state control and describe things like the police, roads, or single payer health care as “Socialist” because it’s the government that controls them. The reality is a bit more complicated than that.
What makes a government or society Socialist is not STATE control of production (factories, infrastructure, etc); it’s WORKER control. You could very well have a government that is Socialist IF the workers control it. However, a government that is authoritarian CANNOT be Socialist because power is in the hands of a dictator or an oligarchy, not the workers. This lack of worker control makes these regime types Capitalist - either State Capitalist or a mixed system.
A Nazi propaganda poster depicting a Jewish man working behind the scenes to manipulate Germany’s enemies. The caption reads: “Here behind the hostile powers: the Jew”
While Hitler took steps to gather support among German workers, Nazism rejects most of the basic tenets of Socialist theory expressed by Marx. In particular, Nazism rejects the idea of international class struggle and instead gives it a nationalist/racial bent. German workers are not struggling against the bourgeois capitalist class, but rather, foreign usurpers. Hitler blamed foreign countries and ethnic minorities in Germany for undermining the German economy and stealing jobs and opportunities from native Germans.
Also central to Nazism is the fact that this “empowerment” of the workers was ultimately to mobilize Germany for war. Hitler argued that the revitalization of the German economy was necessary to turn Germany into a world power and “take back” what he believed to be rightful German lands. This included seizing property from ethnic minorities inside Germany and invading and conquering the German Lebensraum (living space.) However, the workers were NOT given control of production when Germany made these seizures. Much of the economic growth that Germany enjoyed in the years leading up to WWII was diverted to military expansion.
Although Nazism contains anti-capitalist criticism, it does not criticize capitalism for the same reasons that Socialism or Communism does. Hitler again, racialized his arguments, describing the modern capitalist system as a Jewish conspiracy, which he criticized the Weimar Republic for being complicit in.
While Hitler rejected a free, international market, private ownership of production was still permitted and, in some industries, encouraged. The Nazi government negotiated with private businessmen and industrialists to create cartels - privately owned, cooperatives protected from competition in exchange for heavy government influence over production.
The most famous example of cartelism is probably Porsche: a privately owned auto manufacturer that was commissioned by the Nazis to design the Volkswagen Beetle as seen in the image above.
Due to the continued presence of private ownership of production (albeit with state intervention) and limited worker influence, the economic beliefs of Nazism are center-right and definitely not Socialist.
As for whether or not participants of the “Unite the Right” rally are true Nazis: most of these economic beliefs are very similar to ones espoused by the alt-right. There’s deep skepticism in Neoliberal institutions like finance and free trade, and Antisemitism is replaced with anti-immigrant sentiment. Given the prevalence (though not universality) of Nazi symbols (flags, armbands, salutes) and language (chants like “The Jews will not replace us” and “Blood and Soil”) at the very least the participants are Fascists and Nazi Sympathizers, if not full-blown Nazis.
Betta Tax - thank you for reading; I hope you found it interesting and informative! No dog or cat for me, but Abzu here is pretty chill.
Catinthecuse
Excellent OP! Thanks for the wonderful explanation!
CrabOfThePeople
The unfortunate part is whenever you put someone in too much power they usually end up abusing it.
MrBrainslowski
Thank you very much for this. After all the "opinions" I read on imgur, this was balm for the soul.
grenzdebil
As a German: There is a lot of brains in this one. Can't say I agree to all of it, but the general idea is as rare as it is good.
Assdickmasterpiece
So it is not grenzdebil? ;)
12rt2345g342563
It's interesting how closely modern day crony capitalism resembles the economics of national socialism.
CaptainSvea
Imgur needs more shit like this! Well done OP! For future post, do include sources of information too please :) Makes it all scientific
AlabasterSexington
A well thought out and historically accurate statement... you are going to get down voted to oblivion.
StopAskingMeForAnAccountImgurIWannaLurk
Or sent to the FP. To be honest it's just RNG when it comes to usersub.
Ihavewaytoomanyfavoritestosort
And here I'm just wondering if Abzu really lives ina cup that tiny or if that was just a water change day.
SeriousPotato1
Sociologist? Very well written
ConstantineVKopronymos
Just a personal passion, but thank you!
Bootsy81
Thank you for this @OP. The whole "Nazi's were socialists" thing is one of the things I see with alarming frequency online these days 1/
Bootsy81
That immediately makes me think the person saying it is an irredeemable fuck wit. It's up there with flat Earthers imo. And sadly 2/
Bootsy81
There's usually no arguing or explaining the mistake to them. Socialist is there in the name so that's what they were. It's such stupid 3/
Bootsy81
Bullshit. And I hate to say it, it seems to almost always be from an American trying to justify the arseholes in Charlottesville.
JackDaniels91
The first time i heard it was from a relative of my wife. I was so dumbstruck that i couldn't even think of a reply back.
azazyel
The Nazis were not socialist under Hitler. They rounded up the Socialists and put them in a little camp called Dachau.
GodEmperorOfImgur
Not true!... most of them were just shot.
MisterBrando
Let's not squabble over semetics...I MEANT SEMANTICS!
Zappit
Watch out - you're going to get down voted by anti-semantics.
ConstantineVKopronymos
"Knowledge is power" - France is bacon
Orionsdick
MisterBrando
mmmm...knowledge
Salmonthegreat
Great post, knowledge is good and bacon even better. On a side note, the betta is in a bigger, filtered tank normally, right?
ConstantineVKopronymos
Yes! He was just in there because I needed to transport him to a sitter while I went out of town
Salmonthegreat
Lovely!
eion85
2xlepergnome4lyfe
Alkyone
From my experience, your average Americans will call Nazi/communist anyone they dislike as a general insult with no understanding of either.
SabatonXX
Exactly
Galhaar
Worth noting that nazism also believes in and enforced economic hierarchy, resembling protectionist capitalism more than anything close 1/?
Galhaar
To socialism. Most industrialists were also party members. This is however, not to be confused with the much less effective, 2/?
Galhaar
Party led, yet differently organized soviet model, where party agencies controlled industry, and agriculture was left in the hands of 3/4
Galhaar
The people, with short term goals thrust upon them, and the party collecting most of their products as part of collectivization 4/4
12rt2345g342563
The parallels with the modern republican party are frightening.
thescottishfox
You just gave me a Civics boner.
WholesomeAF
Nazism should be taught for it's history alone. Those who are educated will not likely repeat the cycle.
Assdickmasterpiece
In germany, or better, early BRD without DDR has the whole subject in its course of instruction in highschool.. 1/
Assdickmasterpiece
In the history class. We also got an alt-right moovement based on a party (afd), but its not that radical like the nazis in the us. 2/
Assdickmasterpiece
But as the country with all the institutions, that trys to process the whole wrong thinking of nazis, with museums and like 24/7tv shows 3/
Assdickmasterpiece
About our history, some bright lights in our sociaty still dont get it :D
Assdickmasterpiece
A few weeks ago a 22y/o female egyten student got runed over by a car in a 30kmh zone and got abused rassisticly after it... she died in 4/
Pirsquar
Abzu needs a bigger tank. Bettas can live in tiny spaces, but they thrive in 5 gallons or more.
ConstantineVKopronymos
He was just being transported to a sitter - his regular tank is much larger
Kommanche
Abzu is a great little game
QuietJack
Very well-written and educational, and Abzu is a great name for a very pretty fish.
IWishIWereNotAllergicToCats
I've had so many downvotes today trying to explain this shit to alt-right apologist idiots. Thank you.
Panda4hire
I wish people understood that words in different contexts mean different things. Scientific theories are basically rules, not hunches.
grenzdebil
Theories are never rules until they are proved - at which point they stop being theories and become laws.
somethingdark
Nope. http://notjustatheory.com/
NotaCPA
Good link. Everyone is trying to explain it in 140 characters. But this is very good
Jawsers
You started off well with the first four words, the rest is just gobbledygook.
grenzdebil
You didn't even start off well.
kentnl
Gravity is still largely a "theory", but its practically a rule. Just some kinks to work out. Doesn't mean gravity is just "an idea"
Youareobscure
Gravity is not a theory, it is a law - it describes and predicts phenomenon, it does not explain it.
kentnl
And the exact details of how to make predictions at every scale is not completely defined, even though the *General* principle is.
Youareobscure
F=GMm/r^2; this is always true, it is defined
kentnl
They don't call it that though. Its part of the Theory of General Reactivity, or Quantum Gravity Theory.
Youareobscure
*Relativity. And the Law of gravity is not the theory of general relativity which is a theory
tiikki
No. Theory = explanation of why things are like they are. Laws = when A then B, no explanatonary power
tiikki
And theory cannot ever be proven, they only can be disproven. There always may be a portion of situations which we cannot anticipate where
tiikki
it doesn't work. Classical mechanics works until things get too big or too small or too fast.
grenzdebil
You are talking about scientific theory. Other forms do exist, however.
grenzdebil
That said, "law" may indeed not have been the wisest choice of words.
tiikki
THIS COMMENT THREAD IS ABOUT SCIENCE!
grenzdebil
Go yell at someone else, I'm not playing with you.
Panda4hire
true. But theories in pop culture are more like Hypothesis, they don't have much evidence whereas scientific theories generally have some.
grenzdebil
No argument there. Still, theories are not rules. They may be the only feasible way, but that does not make them rules.
RandyKnapp
They are so good at prediction and so heavily evidenced that they can be treated as rules, just not proven. They should be used as fact.
Panda4hire
100% agreement, I was being a little lose with my wording. 140 characters can make it tough. Semantics man, they are a hell of a drug.
grenzdebil
I mean no offense. I just cannot stand the bullshit floating around, especially on topics like this one. And I do know you're not stupid.
AlabasterScarf
While I disagree with your conclusions, I'm glad you had a thought out post to share.
abeigor
Had a betta named Absu 20+ years ago. Good fish name. Good post, too.
Munchman347
Wife named ours 'Than Nuttin', cause he was...
Ryanator50
I don't give two shits about economics. I want them gone because they want to kill all the minorities.
dnd3edm1
Don't worry, economics doesn't give any shits about you either!
Ryanator50
yeah that's true
UnluckyLunkhead
Hitler hated the Jews, Muslims, Mongoloids, Communists. Everyone really who wasn't Aryan.
SabatonXX
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world
TheSlavViking
Wow someone should have told these guys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)
MasterThief
Except the Nazis *did* have state control of the economy for the basis of benefiting workers.
MasterThief
Useful books: *The Wages of Destruction* by Adam Tooze, *Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War and the Nazi Welfare State* by Gotz Aly
dnd3edm1
That's a very roundabout way of saying "They stole from the slaughtered and conquered and gave it to their people."
dnd3edm1
Using the same logic, the Mongols under Genghis Khan were among many early pioneers of socialism.
MasterThief
You can encourage a lot of pillaging if you take care to spread the loot around.
MasterThief
But as Thatcher put it, the problem with socialism (of any form) is that eventually the rulers run out of other people's money.
wingnut98
I think Nazi wannabes is an accurate term as well. There is no Nazi party in America and a fringe group of racists doesn't create one.
SephReed
UGH! Thank you. I could deal with "Neo Nazis," but that people keep calling them actual Nazis is driving me nuts.
2xlepergnome4lyfe
the alt-right's core goal is a white ethno-state. That makes them basically Nazis.
LarvaLamp
I see it this way- just because you're really outdoorsy and can tie many different knots doesn't mean you are a Boy Scout.
Galhaar
Probably due to the lack of functional party systems. A movement like this will not manifest itself in a party, not in the US.
ValiantlyFlailing
Donald Trump said "the alt left attacked us." Us. He put himself with the nazis. That's the President. The idiot president, but still.
Galhaar
"alt left" we weren't even ask to be called that. Commie is a compliment to us and so is anarchist. "alt left" my ass. Fuckwit.
wqpsu
I saw that too but thought the original source transcript was retracted because the audio was unclear if it was "us" or "uh"
CosmicNihilism
No he didn't he said the alt left came with clubs and attacked them
DuchessImguraff
And the nazis came with flags and weapons.
CosmicNihilism
No they came with flags and shields the only reason the fights broke out is because they alt left antagonize like every other protest
leavinit
The "alt-left" is a pointless term. You mean anti-Nazi protestors. They didn't kill anyone, nor did they prepare to do so.
DuchessImguraff
If a nazi proudly protested I'd come and scream at them. They are aligning with the holocaust, with nazi germany. They are evil. Fight evil.
DuchessImguraff
They had guns and knives. Watch the videos. Their flags were speared. The nazi flag should not be waved in public arena. It is evil.
ConstantineVKopronymos
Original Nazis were pretty fringe right up til they gained power. C-ville guys may not be formally organized but the ideology is still there
myfriendevanwilliams
I would argue also that most there would under other circumstances distance themselves from the KKK and Nazi groups. "Unite the right" as
myfriendevanwilliams
In a lot of different right wing groups coming together because they feel they are being attacked. Not an accurate belief by them prob but s
Xavkha
Thats exactly what happened to to create the nazis, Hitler hated socialists but his nationalists party still joined with them to create nazi
wingnut98
How long were they a fringe group before that happened and were they steadily growing or did they just burst out?
ConstantineVKopronymos
Somewhere in the middle. The party was banned til '25. Didn't become a major alternative party til '30 and didn't achieve a majority in 1/2
ConstantineVKopronymos
the government til after the Reichstag's fire in '33. But again, it's not party membership that makes someone a Nazi, it's the ideology 2/2
wingnut98
It's a party that gives it power. The number of people identifying as Nazi has been steady for a long time. Your comparison isn't fair.