HolyOldMackinaw
59409
2028
44
D-Day and the Normandy campaign is perhaps the most famous and well known events of World War II. With the fame however, has come the mythology.
In this post I will take you through some interesting facts about the Allied Invasion of 1944, and clear up some common misconceptions.
By 1944 the Germans knew that an allied invasion of France from Britain was an inevitability. However, their defensive plans for this inevitability sucked.
Problems at the highest levels:
Hitler was doped up on a cocktail of drugs, including meth. As a fascist dictator, Hitler was incredibly paranoid that he would be usurped as Fuhrer of the Reich. As such he focused all power with himself, and did not trust his subordinates. To avoid anyone else becoming too powerful, he set up an incredible messy chain of command, dividing his officers and setting them against each other. This made command and control at the higher levels of military command extremely difficult and convoluted. While Allied military intelligence cracked Nazi codes and monitored troop movements, Nazi intelligence was more focused on spying on themselves. Indeed, the British either captured, or turned every single Nazi spy in Britain. This meant the Germans would be unable to properly respond to an invasion.
The Initial Plan:
The Nazi plan was to create a defensive shield on the crust of France, the so called Atlantic Wall. This was manned by the infantry, while inland were stationed 10 "elite" panzer divisions who could react to an invasion and counter attack. However, Hitler refused to give up personal command of the 10 divisions and stationed them too far inland. The result was that when the Allies landed on D-day, the cream of the German army was unable to react.
The Germans really had one chance to defeat the invasion and drive it back into the sea. If they could stop the landings, the western allies would be unlikely to be able to launch another attempt any time in the near future. However, the panzer divisions did not arrive in time to combat the landings.
Hitler's plan gets worse:
After the landings, Hitler still refused to listen to his generals. He demanded that his armies stand and hold their ground in the dense hedgerows of Normandy, rather than retreat to more open ground. The problem with this was three-fold:
1. The German forces were at the mercy of the massive amounts of naval artillery the Allied fleet had amassed.
2. While the hedgerows were good for infantry defence, they were terrible for armored warfare. This was a problem when Germany was fielding its best armored divisions in defense.
3. The insistence on building up troop levels and counter-attacking constantly meant that the German war machine was steadily ground down and latter completely trapped and annihilated.
The Allies by this stage of the War had massive air superiority. On D-day alone the Allies launched nearly 15,000 sorties, the Germans less than one hundred. Allied pilots were extremely well trained and experienced, while German pilots were fresh faced youngsters with barely any training, resulting in extremely lopsided casualties for the Germans.
The Allies were fairly free to maruade across German territory at will, and this massively impacted the German ability to resist. Any German troop movements trying to move during the day were instantly shot up, as well as any concentrations of fuel or spare vehicles. It was basically impossible for the Germans to get fresh troops or equipment to the frontline. Erwin Rommel himself, the German commander in charge of the defence, was put out of action permanently when his staff car was shot up by a patrolling "jabo" (German slang for a fighter-bomber aircraft).
Later in the Normandy campaign the allies would use strategic heavy bombers to literally annihilate large German forces during their offenses, creating moonscapes of craters devoid of trees or greenery.
The German defences, as mentioned above, were divided between two basic kinds of formation.
Defending the "crust" were the basic infantry. Now the high water mark of the Third Reich's army was 1941. By 1944 the Germans had been bled dry by the continuous bloody fighting on the Eastern Front. The German infantry at this point was a shadow of the forces that had so confidently invaded Poland, France, and Russia. Most of the German recruits were either the old or the very young. The other Germans were mostly men that had been badly wounded or were disabled - men with limps and other crippling wounds, one eye, bad eyesight, etc. Other troops were not Germans at all but the so-called "osttruppen" or Eastern Troops. These were Poles, Czechs, Russians, Siberians, etc. Needless to say the osttruppen were really not very enthusiastic soldiers, many had been given the choice of enlisting or being labeled "politically undesirable" - a one way ticket to a concentration camp. These were the forces tasked with holding the Atlantic Wall Crust.
In reserve were the 10 "elite" panzer divisions, most of them Waffen-SS formations. These were the best troops that Germany could muster during the war at this point. Normal divisions in the German army had around 12,000 men. Waffen-SS divisions were much larger, 18,000-20,000 men was more normal. These divisions contained not just panzers (tanks) - including the famous "big cats" like Tigers and Panthers, but also mechanized infantry, artillery, and recon units. The SS-troops were heavily ideological and motivated. The officers and noncoms were generally veterans of the Eastern front and had actively participated in atrocities in the East. Some of these divisions would carry out reprisals during the Normandy campaign against French civilians, literally massacring hundreds of women and children and burning them in a barn.
At this point the bulk of the rank and file were 17 or 16 years old. While they were getting better equipment and better training, the training didn't amount to much. Many German tankers had about 10 hours TOTAL of tank training before shipping out -and this might be the first motorized vehicle they had driven. Most new infantry maybe got around 20 days training. So while the officers were experienced and savage, the regular troopers were teenagers. Its also worth mentioning most SS officers were promoted for loyalty and ideology rather than intelligence or skill.
Contrast this with the average allied infantryman, who had quite literally been training for two years straight just for the invasion of Normandy. The Allies also had a great system of rapidly promoting for merit and quickly weeding out the incompetents.
While these panzer divisions had the fancy toys - the tiger and panther tanks, the hedgerows (bocage) of Normandy meant the tank fighting was mostly at very close range, which effectively negated many of their advantages in armor and weaponry. Additionally, Allied airpower destroyed much of the German equipment as they tried to move to the coast.
The German troops, in short, were far from true "elites". While they certainly could be stubborn defenders, it didn't take much skill to hang behind a hedgerow and shoot a machine gun, even if it did take guts in the face of Allied firepower.
One of the most famous parts of the D-day landings was the assault of the US army Rangers on the cliffs of Pointe du Hoc. The rangers had to scale very steep cliffs to destroy German artillery at the top. In film this is shown as a bloody fight with fierce resistance.
In reality the rangers scaled the cliffs and found at the top... very, very few Germans and no artillery. The position had been thoroughly blasted by airpower and naval gunfire, and the Germans had sensibly moved their guns elsewhere. Not a single US servicemen died in the attack up the cliffs.
Now later the Rangers did face a determined counter attack. However, scaling the cliffs was basically unopposed.
We get all our history from movies, and those movies are made in America. More British and Canadians landed on D-day then Americans. The Canadians in particular withstood some fierce counter-attacks with massive German numerical superiority, while the British also launched several massive offences in the Normandy campaign, breaking multiple German SS divisions.
Tigers rule, Shermans drool is a common refrain in certain circles. The German Panzers have a certain mystique. While the German big cats - the Tigers and the Panthers, did have better armor and guns then most Sherman tanks, they really were not better tanks.
German tanks were difficult to manufacture, difficult to drive, difficult to maintain, difficult to repair, difficult to move, and massive gas guzzlers. Its worth looking through these points in more detail.
Tiger tanks were difficult to make, so the Germans only ever managed building around 1,000 - compared to 50,000 Shermans built by the Allies.
Tiger tanks had a complicated gear system which was very difficult to operate correctly, especially for Germans who had very little driving experience even with cars. The Sherman drove more like a car and a simple gear system which was easy to master.
The Tiger had to be taken apart in a very specific way, using specialist equipment to fix anything. Important features were not easily accessible. Shermans on the other hand were highly modular and could very easily fixed. Engine broken? Just take the engine out and bolt a new one in!
Tigers were not designed to be driven to the frontline, only used while in combat. They needed to be carried by train. This might be a problem if your trains keep getting blown up... Tiger II tanks, as is, were too big too fit on regular trains. They had to have special tracks put on to get on the train, and then their battlefield tracks put on at the frontline. And yes this was a real pain.
These tanks also consumed horrendous amounts of fuel, fuel Germany simply didn't have anymore.
They were also mechanically unreliable. Fully half of Tiger Tanks were lost not due to enemy action but due to malfunction, and simply couldn't be recovered. Not a winning design.
Compare this to the outcome of one Allied operation in Normandy which saw almost 500 Shermans knocked out during the offensive. However, 400 of these tanks were recovered following the battle, fully repaired, and returned to the frontline.
In the close quarters fighting of Normandy, the Sherman gun was fully capable of punching through German armor, while the German armament wasn't much of an advantage. The Sherman also had a gyro-stabilized gun, which meant it stayed on target after firing. Shermans could sometimes swiftly send 6 shells into the panzer before the enemy could properly respond. When encounters took place a hundred meters apart, armor often didn't defend from much. The shock of getting hit multiple times would often cause crews to bail out, even if the tank wasn't critically damaged.
The Tigers and Panthers were designed for the wide open Russian Steppes and long range encounters, not for the claustrophobic fighting in Normandy hedgerows.
World War I is often seen in popular eyes as a much more bloody war than World War II. In fact the absolute opposite is true, many many millions more died in World War II.
The Normandy campaign is no exception. The daily casualty rate for the Allies was around 7,000 men per day, on par with a WWI battle. D-day was on June 6th, however the Normandy campaign actually lasted months, going until early August when the German army in France was wiped out. The reality is with much more advanced weapons killing more people is easier. A WWII battlefield was a much deadlier place than a WWI battlefield.
The German refusal to give ground, and their insistence on counter attacking resulting in enormous casualties rates. For the Panzer divisions that started with 20,000 men in June, most were reduced to a couple hundred men in August.
The Allies managed to encircle the Axis forces at a place called the Falaise Gap or Pocket. This was a literal highway of death which saw thousands and thousands of Germans slaughtered. Even for the now veteran Allied troops, used to death and destruction, the devastation they witnessed (and smelt) in this pocket was the most horrific thing they had ever seen. The German army used most horses for transport, and along with the thousands of dead men were thousands of dead horses in a relatively small area.
The Soviet Union was the real nation that defeated the Nazis, and it is on the Eastern Front where the war was really decided. More Russians died in individual battles than total American casualties for the entire war. Now the Western Allies considerably shortened the war by invading Normandy, saving millions of lives. The USA also kept the USSR afloat by giving them tons of tanks, trucks, jeeps, and all manner of supplies. (These conveniently never make the Russian propaganda photos, but rest assured the Russians used thousands of Shermans)
The Normandy campaign has been the subject of multiple movies and TV shows, yet none I feel do it justice. The fighting was horrendous, the casualties high, and the fight took months.
Not only was the fighting horrible, but the devastation to the landscape itself was intense. Scores of ancient Norman villages were totally destroyed, and many civilians died under the rubble.
The Allied strategy was Steel Not Blood. They wanted to keep as many Allied soldiers alive at the end of the day as possible (thousands still died, of course). But the Allies were very sensitive to high casualties. Airpower was one way to reduce Allied casualties. Strategic heavy bombers were used in this campaign (Eisenhower personally didn't like using them, due to their tendency to sometimes drop short) to wipe out large swathes of the German army. Unfortunately this often included civilians and villages the Germans were occupying. These bombings have never really been shown in film, but viewers describe panzers being thrown fifty feet in the air like children's toys. The Germans that survived were driven insane. The landscape was reduced to a literal "moonscape" - the exact word used by those who were there. Everything green destroyed, all the trees destroyed, and landscape littered with mud and craters.
Personally I don't think any film has really captured the horrific scale of this conflict, and all the intersecting lives that were lost.
It's also worth noting that the Western Allies were so successful due to their democratic structures. The Facistic structure of Nazi Germany stifled innovation, leadership and their war effort. Fascistic societies simply cannot cooperate since they are focused on top-down domination. This in stark contrast to the Western Allies.
drone1957
Great post. My father was at Normandy and my Uncle Was killed outside St Lo. My mother never fully got over the loss of her brother
HolyOldMackinaw
Thanks for sharing, and sorry for your loss. The death and destruction is unimaginable. One of coworker's dads was also wounded at Normandy
EatPieLander
Good book with lots of performance, maintenance, and availability data in Steven Zaloga's "Patton versus The Panzers".
HolyOldMackinaw
That sounds like a good read, I will check it out!
AliceInjection
Detroit cranked out tanks and planes like nobody's business.
HolyOldMackinaw
The industrial capacity of the US was unbelievable
DavidBrooker
I don't know why the American story is 'saving Europe from speaking German', a lie, and not that they saved Europe from speaking Russian 1/2
DavidBrooker
which is mostly defensible. Stalin wasn't going to just stop in Berlin, and while D-Day didn't change how WWII was going to end, it most 2/3
DavidBrooker
definitely changed how the Cold War began. 3/3
Turbolibros
ParmiNotParma
Without the Kurds
MyNameIsPer
We salute the rank, not the man!
HolyOldMackinaw
Band of Brothers did a good job of being really faithful to Winter's personal account
EnderAstraeus
To date I will stand up Band of Brothers and Fury as good examples of "Faithful Accountings of the truth as it has been told by those in it.
Turbolibros
perlsucks
Worth the read. Absolutely.
HolyOldMackinaw
Thanks! Glad that you enjoyed
cttypo
No, thank you for your effort in putting this excellent post together. Always appreciate WWII history.
BillGates5GPigeon
That was an amazing read
HolyOldMackinaw
Thanks!
bassaro
This is great, if you do another I want to know more about the Eastern Front. Western media doesn't pay enough attention to it.
HolyOldMackinaw
Very true, it is a very difficult topic, pretty intimidating to try and cover!
bassaro
I believe in you, future Dan Carlin.
thisisprocrastination
You might have mentioned that Canaris, head of German intelligence, worked for the allies.
uriel222
{citation needed}
superseriouscomments
I don't think he worked for the allies, but he didn't really work for Hitler either. Also he wasn't very skilled at doing spy stuff.
eeyrjmr
Good read. A fair bit I knew, but some very interesting stuff about the germans
HolyOldMackinaw
Thanks! Glad that there was some interesting stuff in there
WitchCityHound
I've been to some of those battlefields and they still looked like golf balls.
HolyOldMackinaw
Wow, tons of massive craters?
WitchCityHound
Pock marks all across the ground 1 to 2 m deep
TinyAngryDog
Some of the WW1 ones are still like that too. Often off limits still! Because of old ordinance.
WitchCityHound
Yeah I visited Verdun as well and it was the same.
JaelitheKitty
Didn’t D-Day happen on Rommel’s wife’s birthday or something??
HolyOldMackinaw
Yes, he was in Paris buying her shoes
TheBigCheese93
thefeckamisigningupwithfacebook
@HolyOldMackinaw is back? The master returns... glad to see you posting again amigo. As always, top quality historical content. Awesome :)
slapthebag24
@HolyOldMackinaw agreed here as well. It was a very nice surprise to see you posting again. It is my favorite reason for coming here
HolyOldMackinaw
Wow! Thanks so much, high praise indeed! I have been wanting to make a return to posting but life has been very busy
slapthebag24
Totally understand! Only wanted to let you know they are very much enjoyed!
HolyOldMackinaw
Thanks! Well back for now, we will see how busy this fall gets
flipj
Excellent stuff, as usual. All around great info, thank you. Even for an avid WWII, this was still very interesting.
HolyOldMackinaw
Thanks! glad you enjoyed it!
ThatGuyFromJustSouthOfTheMiddleOfNowhere
Lots of (counter-) intel and psyops made so Hitler didn't expect a landing at Normandy even when many in his rank officers did.
HolyOldMackinaw
Totally right, he was even convinced D-day was a distraction from the real invasion as the landings happened
Voidhawk42
Hitler was asleep, but no-one had the authority to wake him. None of the panzers could move without his say, so they sat and did nothing.
mikeatike
They were entirely convinced the landing would happen at Calais. Its the narrowest part of the channel.
MetaSomma
Iirc that's one main reason they chose Normandy, it was the harder crossing so they counted on it being less predictable
bippityboppitybuttsex
The Chieftain on the M4 not sucking https://www.c-span.org/video/?433629-2/design-history-m4-sherman-tank-world-war-ii
HolyOldMackinaw
Love the chieftain!
bippityboppitybuttsex
I spent 4 years in a mech unit and his rants about track tension hit home...
HolyOldMackinaw
Haha, somethings only people with hands on experience know. And the rest of us look like idiots for not understanding the technical details
bippityboppitybuttsex
Anyone who has ever thrown track and had to dig it out and put it back together is concerned about it.
helmutk00hl
I've this to add: while badmouthing USA is a national hobby in France, it is a total taboo in the normand bocage, any attemps frowned upon
Marine0311
Yep. I met a Frenchman in Marseilles that grew up in Normandy as a teen during WW II. He loved Americans and gave me and friend lots of
Marine0311
free pastries and bread from his bakery he ran. We visited him several times and he told some interesting stories about the war.
HolyOldMackinaw
I can imagine it is personal for them
immatureoldguy
Very good read. Thank you for your work. I see "then" instead of "than." Still A+.
HolyOldMackinaw
Apologies for the bad spelling!
cyborganism
Went to Juno beach in 2017. The Canadians faced the toughest Nazis and there was nowhere to hide on that beach. No cliff, nothing.
HolyOldMackinaw
Awesome, I would love to visit Normandy. The German commander created the most impressive fortress and had no intention of rolling over
BrdCdn
Also the only beach to achieve day one objectives. The Canadian and Brits faced the best equipped and trained German forces in Normandy.
fortfantastic
i knew there had to be a canadian somewhere to mention juno beach
3Davideo
#9 I think WWI's reputation in this regard probably stems from that all the fighting was concentrated within a few front lines that >
3Davideo
> rarely changed that much territory, compared with WWII's fighting across the entire continent. By concentrating all the fighting and >
3Davideo
> deaths with a much smaller sense of "we actually accomplished something" meant that it seemed all that more hopeless and pointless.
HolyOldMackinaw
Yes that is a great point, WWII fighting got more decisive results faster compared to WWI
PacMan4Life
Great read, thank you
HolyOldMackinaw
Glad you enjoyed!
ElbowDeepInAPoliceState
1/Small quibble: while the German heavy tanks did have thicker armour than most allied tanks, the effective protection was roughly equal due
HolyOldMackinaw
Great point, I didn't know that!
ElbowDeepInAPoliceState
2/2 to the rather lower quality of German armour steel. Whereas Commonwealth and US foundries could make better armour more reliably.
Nuttsy
Even then, that's a bit of a specific thing that also depends heavily on what shell is being shot from what gun at what plate.
ElbowDeepInAPoliceState
Not really. You shoot the same gun at both types of plate and various ranges, and record your findings
tlamstrike
I think what they meant was that RHA and cast armor react differently to APC/APCBC vs AP shells.
Nuttsy
Also, sloped armour vs nominally equally powerful shells of different calibers.
superseriouscomments
Though by the time the Germans ran out of raw materials for high quality alloys most Tiger Is had already been built. The effect is very
superseriouscomments
noticeable on Tiger IIs or other tanks that were built throughout the war.
ElbowDeepInAPoliceState
Even from before the war. It wasn't lack of resources, it was inferior metallurgical capabilities
sexyGandalf12
The german army should have known that hitler would fuck them over after letting the 6th army die in stalingrad for his ego.
HolyOldMackinaw
Many of them wrote in their diaries how they felt they were being slaughtered pointlessly in Normandy
SpeakeasyImprov
Like, I know they were Nazis, but I almost feel a little bad for those men who were basically just cannon fodder.
HolyOldMackinaw
A lot of the German strategy involved throwing men into the meat grinder, its pretty horrific really
Wolfshead009
Several of them were not Nazi or German. I forget where I saw the account of a handful of KOREANS captured by the Allies.
haggerton
Should have compared Tiger to Pershing (if at all; US had no real heavy tank) and Sherman to Pz IV instead.
Kilroy115
While this is true, his point here is everyone always, ALWAYS brings up the big cats. In reality, the biggest killers of allied tanks were
HolyOldMackinaw
Great point, and actual tank Vs. tank warfare was fairly rare. Anti-tank guns on both sides were the main killers
Kilroy115
Infantry anti tank weapons, infantry manned AT guns, and tank destroyers like the StuG, not the German Panzers
haggerton
This is your point, and it's a good point. His point wasn't "Sherman vs Tiger is a dumb comparison", it was "Sherman > Tiger".
Kilroy115
Fair, fair
HolyOldMackinaw
Right the Sherman was only a medium tank, but it was the most common allied tank in Normandy is often compared by others to Tiger tanks etc
haggerton
"often compared by others" I'm aware, which is why I think you should not add to the pile of nonsense comparisons. Germany had med tanks too
haggerton
Like, comparing a med to a heavy is as weird as comparing a bomber to a fighter. Diff role diff machine diff doctrine.
HolyOldMackinaw
Fair enough, you make a good point
AsamiS
A few things to simply point out! (Great read and post first off!) It should be noted that German late war tanks; Panthers/Tigers and-
HolyOldMackinaw
Great points! Thanks for going into detail, you should make a post!
AsamiS
KTs were not bad tanks, in fact they were insanely effective when fighting. But they were badly designed tanks in a war with 4 different-
AsamiS
Landscapes and fronts. Italy, France, Africa, Russia. They were deadly and the only ones stupid enough to fight them were Russians who-
AsamiS
Actively fielded weaponry capable of taking them on. While the WA had the motto; Tanks for infantry, planes for tanks. In the sense of -
AsamiS
Avoid German tanks, call in the Tank Buster planes. The next part would be that Hitler had- well Hitler fell to the same paranoia that -
AsamiS
Stalin had. Hitler was riding off easy success in West Europe due to Czech, Poland, France and such caving easily. Hitler and his generals-
AnonOmis1000
Don't forget about the efforts the allies took to deceive the Germans. Operation Mincemeat is one example.
Marine0311
Operation Mincemeat was in the Mediterranean, it had nothing to do with Normandy. Fortitude was the deception plan for D-day.
AnonOmis1000
My mistake then
HolyOldMackinaw
Definitely, the Allied skill at intelligence operations was truly remarkable
sneakinglurkingpeepingguy
Great post. There's never enough credit given to the Russians in WW2
TheSiskoIsOfBajor
I still think the Red Army could have taken Japan instead of the US dropping the bombs. The war would have been longer, but...
DingusMajoris
I'm sure the Poles do, but it's not good credit.
EvillBob
Or enough blame.
MrHailstone
Credit? Tell that to the countries they freed from the nazis only to occupy them themselves. They wouldnt have stopped at eastern germany
SDev0
You should read up on all of the rapes they committed when conquering the eastern front. It was a business to them
e1smann
This and so much more, like Polish fighters helping to free Berlin. Many people helped to beat the fascists.
HolyOldMackinaw
Lots of Poles in the Normandy campaign as well
RipuliMestari
Against Nazis, maybe. As Finnish, there is no credits needet to give. Those fuckers shot with own artillery to own grounds and attacked.
RipuliMestari
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila
RipuliMestari
They were so called "Mainilan laukaukset". Fuckers tried to invade Finland back to Russia.
schlummi
Y. Or other eastern countries.![]()
HolyOldMackinaw
That is a really great chart actually, thanks for sharing this.
spectheintro
Almost every post I read about WW2 talks about how the USSR broke Nazi Germany, whether here or on Reddit. I don't think people are (1/2)
spectheintro
unaware any longer. (2)
OhIfIMust
Outside of Russia, you mean?
DavidJackel
I simply cannot comprehend that the Soviets lost around 5 Million men in the first 6 months and still managed to win.
HolyOldMackinaw
1/2 If the Nazis weren't genocidal maniacs they may have succeeded, they put the populace in a position where they had no choice but resist
HolyOldMackinaw
2/2 I've read that any other leader than Stalin would have folded, Stalin was in the position were he was scarier even than the Germans
BrdCdn
Propped up in a big way by lend lease. Something like 40% of all tanks defending Moscow were lend lease.
MrHailstone
Pretty easy when you force your troops to fight. The russian soldiers didnt have much choice
GinAndTonics
To be fair, fighting to protect your home is also a great motivator. There were also countless partisan groups that resisted the nazis
Drakitomon
At first the forced infantry had 1 with a rifle, 1 with ammunition, because they didnt have enough of both to outfit everyone.
keebs63
That's a myth perpetuated by Hollywood, the Soviets had plenty of rifles and ammo on the front lines. The SVT-40 was in short supply but 1/2
BrumpoTungus
Thank you. That Call of Duty mission was awesome, but it was fiction. So is Enemy at the Gates.
keebs63
That was because it had entered service just months before. The Soviets had plenty of stockpiles of older weapons and quickly produced more.
SirenBrick
World War Two on youtube does this Justice, Indy Nidel does the war week by week, Great watch.
HolyOldMackinaw
Nice, I didn't know he did WWII, I've just some of his WWI stuff. I will check it out
Irongrip09
Finding this and the WW1 series during lockdown was an excellent time-filler
HolyOldMackinaw
Totally agree. The scale of horror on the Eastern front is unimaginable
KarateCanine
Dan Carlin "ghosts of the ostfront". Highly recommend
HolyOldMackinaw
Such a great listen!
KarateCanine
I love all of his stuff. So interesting because of the way he tells it.
sneakinglurkingpeepingguy
The conditions both the Russian and German troops endured on the eastern front are unimaginable.
Henhan
If you haven't read it, Antony Beevor's Stalingrad is an amazing read - it completely upended my "America won WW2 on it's own" ideas
HolyOldMackinaw
Its on my list!
Henhan
Thank you for doing credit to the Russians
darrenclay9
War without Garlands by Robert Kershaw is a good read about the invasion of Russia.
WateryTartan
I would like to see a D-day movie told from the German perspective.
Wolfshead009
Don't know about movie, but see if you can find the book, "Invasion: They're coming"
HolyOldMackinaw
That would be pretty interesting, especially I think looking at some of the eastern conscripts, can't imagine what they were thinking.
schlummi
D-Day is less relevent for germans. Stalingrad/eastern front is.
OhIfIMust
Secrets of the Dead did an awesome episode, including accounts from one of the defenders (who got his finger shot off during the assault >
OhIfIMust
which almost certainly saved his life.)
JustAddMud
I think there is such a movie(or show) that is comparable to Band of Brothers. Subtitled of course. Lemme see if i can't find it.
JustAddMud
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_War this looks like it. I must premise that i haven't watched it so it's mere hearsay.
HolyOldMackinaw
Thanks for sharing, I'm curious to check this out
WateryTartan
Looks interesting, thanks!
Problemwoodchuck
I've seen it. The German war experience is incredibly hard to depict but overall GW was good. The main main characters are probably a bit--
Problemwoodchuck
--too sympathetic overall
PresidentialRoboHobo
That was my takeaway as well
isilering
"Soviet Union was the real nation that defeated the Nazis" once said this on here and that usa did barely anything in ww1, downvoted to hell
MidlandRedux
The Russians faced more of the German army, but 40% of all German resources went towards the Western bomber offensive alone.
isilering
which happened before us joined the war ... this would be a good point for uk and all the other european soldiers in uk
MidlandRedux
Not actually. The heavy bomber offensive didn’t get underway until mid-1942, when Lancaster squadrons joined in.
HolyOldMackinaw
Yeah I've been downvoted comments plenty of times lol.
Marine0311
US Lend Lease shortened the war in the East by at least 18 months. LL contributed significantly to logistics, food, and critical supplies
TinyAngryDog
Seems accurate to have gotten that response.. The USA stopped the German breakthrough and drive on Paris. Id call it a lot.
isilering
spring offensive, american troops arrived after germans were stopped, sure they helped regain ground lost but did not save anything
TinyAngryDog
https://www.historyhit.com/what-role-did-america-play-in-defeating-the-german-spring-offensive-in-1918/
TinyAngryDog
No, "By May 1918, more than a million [US] soldiers had arrived". Battle of Belleau wood? Multiple divisions in combat
superseriouscomments
WW1 would have cost more lives and lasted longer if the US had not joined the war. I'd say their main contributions that shorten the war
HolyOldMackinaw
The US provided a lot of credit and arms to the entente powers which was their biggest contribution imho
superseriouscomments
Though the US also traded raw materials with a German merchant submarine that covered the needs of the arms industry for several months.
superseriouscomments
were shifting the power balance towards the allies, strengthening the moral of the French and British forces on the western front and
isilering
with this i can agree, but i heard so many americans talking about how "they" saved the europe (and the world) twice which is bs
superseriouscomments
For perspective: During several battles on the western front each side lost more soldiers than the US lost during the entire war.
superseriouscomments
Wilson's fourteen points.
BrdCdn
You are mistaken in the first but right on the second. The west kept Russia alive with supplies, food and equipment.
isilering
im literally quoting the post and the supplies certainly helped but in long term production capacity of soviet union would win either way
BrdCdn
You are overestimating the production capacity of the Soviets post Barbarossa. Also if there's no food you can't fight.
dohcohv
The US sent over a thousand locomotives to Russia because they had lost most of them in Barbarossa. Without trains you can't move raw
dohcohv
Materials, finished materials, food, troops. We also sent 500,000 trucks.