ChaoticGoodTransGirl
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Jan 12, 2023 7:21 AM
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
152833
2971
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hellvis
There ARE ethics questions like that. Read Singer's "Famine, affluence, and morality"
djangojazz
Our society makes being poor a sin and rich right. Ethics are then designed AFTER THAT FACT. At least in the US.
putcleverusernamehere
They're like that because the hoarders write the books
walnutbreath
Because historically bakers weren't that well-paid either. You weren't stealing from bottomless capital Walmart, you were stealing from a
walnutbreath
neighbor who had their own hardships and weren't "hoarding bread."
stankginchfurbuger
In certain places and times, laws on camera were absolutely draconian. Stiff me a roll, your head will roll
stankginchfurbuger
*bakers
psmith00
Historically , that was true. Now the bread is baked by conglomerates that squeeze every bit of profit they can from it.
walnutbreath
Depends on where you live and what bread you're willing to buy. I'm fortunate to have several family-owned bakeries within 5 miles.
walnutbreath
But if you gotta steal bread from whatever oligopolist chain grocer, I'm not saying shit. Virtually none of their profits go to paying their
walnutbreath
workers a living wage. Fuck their margins.
paintingagency
Supermarket chains in Canada were literally colluding to fix the price of bread. Prob still are. Nobody punished.
Youhavinagiraffe
I studied ethics and both of these kinds of questions get asked and analysed extensively. Did this person stop listening after one question?
JohnWilliamsFromDillon
Trump meant the government could be FIXED like a horse race
Zonga
Which is easier: trying to punish a rich, well-prep'd bread hoarder who pays the salaries of the very cops, or a poor helpless bread-stealer
idiotsonfire
In this theoretical example, you build a guillotine and put the bread hoarder in it.
MADchemEE
tarnok
Thing is, since the the rich don't pay taxes they didn't even pay the salaries of cops and yet, the cops protect them
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
now, if the poor organize to steal the bread together and distribute it amongst themselves in solidarity, they've already punished the rich
Ultratoxic
Then the rich make up a law about that and send the cops they've paid for to stomp shit out of the poors. Your move.
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
that's why the poor (and everyone else they terrorize) need to be armed and organized.
camcam1234
The poor could take turns using a bread knife on the throats of the rich bread hoarder to send a stark message to those who hoard bread
TheGifReturns
I call dibs on a skull. If I can pick I'll take the chemical heir who raped his infant daughter.
VaultGirl69
Ewwww. Those people are monsters.
Ttorr
nah thats called revolution and tends to be looked down upon.
TheN8
More precisely, looked up upon. Preferably from the bottom of a wicker basket.
ghostofGracchusBabeuf
The few thousand who perished by the revolution’s hand were nothing compared to the untold myriad who died of want beneath the ancien regime
glenlochie
A perfect example of how far backwards society has gone is that we are at the stage of Socrates and the Sophists
Kay2015
Because they're meant to highlight the different between ethical and legal.
DoIactuallyneedaUserName
Is it Ethical for Politicians to worry more about what the [huge corporation] lobbyist wants instead of the good of the whole population?
2shortplanks
Ownership of possessions is a societal construct which necessitates a functioning society that benefits all its members sufficiently.
2shortplanks
If a society lets its members starve then the societal contract is broken and, frankly, all bets are off.
downess
Because ethics are written by the people with the bread.
saberjack
Both are ethical question. Just with a sloghtly different subject. Not the same reflexion.
nappyboy6969
Bread don't grow on trees. Someone has to make it. The bread is that someone's property and labor. It's not hoarding.
Futchm
Ethical questions are meant to make people think about the very edge between moral and immoral behavior
DoomSquirter
is it ethical to put crooked politicians on the show "will it blend?". wait, that's a very bad example, but a good reality tv show plot.
RadicalRecluse
being amoral is a super power
sadavir42
thinking this is amoral, like if you value amoralliy; ie if you see value in being amoral and you use those values to guide your actions.
Allrighty
Hoarding bread amounts to stealing from those who are starving, and that's so blatantly unethical no one bothers to ask the question.
Frederf
In philosophy and ethics we absolutely discussed both questions (which are really the same question in a way)
quzar
You're thinking of ethical questions that are hard to answer. The majority of ethical questions have clear morality and need no discussion.
Dionysus187
It gets annoying when they start latching ridiculous parameters to it like "what if stealing that bread causes the baker to starve?"
UpvoteTotem
Edging two moderately unethical situations to see how people judge one vs the other. They're both not good, but the exercise has a point.
Futchm
So for most people the 1st question poses an ethical dilemma
channelranger
Eh to me it's not really any kind of ethical dilemma. If you and your family are starving of course you're in the right to steal bread.
channelranger
Frankly if it's not an unavoidable famine or something, you have every right to riot and steal food when you're left to starve by society.
thetonestarr
But what if the person you steal it from is also struggling to provide? You're just passing on the victimhood. Thus, moral dilemma.
TanithRosenbaum
B/c we've been conditioned to believe 1) is questionable and 2) is desirable, when it reality the very purpose of society is the opposite.
StevieTheAussie
I must not be most people. The people from the second scenario should become food for the people from the first.
HasteTheFool
Exactly. So not a dilemma.
StevieTheAussie
#EatTheRichAndTheirBread
Futchm
For Republicans the answers are obvious; it's moral for me to steal anything, it's moral for me to hoard everything
Davmoran
Republicans excuse their stealing because they "have been driven by others to steal". A minority stealing is just them being lazy.
potshot
But that's an interesting moral problem of its own: where does the limits of stealing vs. hoarding go? But that's quite a separate issue.
KiwiGameDev
It’s only stealing if it is from me which is bad, otherwise I’m just taking what I need and that’s just. /s
LebenderGeist
I read a book where the author had this worldview. Actively paid money to not have to read the rest of it.
TheGlow
What if your family doesn't like bread. What if they like cigarettes? Is it wrong to steal a carton of cigarettes to feed your family?
CircmcisionIsRape
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
holy nicotine headache batman
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
imma be honest, if it's from a business it's ok to steal anything
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
every single business owner is a person who was lucky enough to have access to the resources to start a business in the first place
thisisprocrastination
Nobody hoards bread, it perishes too fast.
SillyZombie
Wait a minute, i just watched this episode of The Office last night. I think the answer is to sleep with the bread vendor to get cheaperbred
iDrawStuff
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
lol that is indeed the plot to les mes
Sulexar
What a bullshit comparison. The people making and selling bread are not hoarding it.
Mec26
If stores who throw out food pour bleach over it in the dumpsters when they do so (which costs MORE money), they’re hoarding it.
jonReremy9669
No¿!¿ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_price-fixing_in_Canada
ihavesexwithllamas6
I mean, Locke’s theory of property rights is like 90% exactly this question.
samanthadlcruz
is it ethical to raise the price of bread because people are starving (esp. when your production costs have not increased at all)
samanthadlcruz
it is certainly ethical to raise prices if production costs go up; but raising bcuz your only competitor died is not.
bolobass
Quite a take to accuse bakers of 'hoarding bread'. Obviously written by someone who never had to get up at 3:45 am for hard work all day.
SteveTheEgg
It's called a metaphor, maybe if you weren't so sleep deprived you would understand it.
bolobass
What's that meta for?
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
the bakers aren't the one's doing the hording, it's the people who own the businesses that mass produce bread and extort work out of bakers
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
or make the market difficult for independent bakers who are doing the hording
sniggly5212
Nobody wants to bake anymore...
Sulexar
Mass producers are still bakers, moron.
CircmcisionIsRape
I've yet to see a CEO come to any of the supermarkets in my town and work an hour in the bakery department. Dumbass.
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
the workers in the factory are. the businesses are just institutions built on their labor, stealing their labor value
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
also it's telling that you're jumping to insults here lol
jbaranski
Because the second one is obviously immoral, would be my fist thought
CakeOrGlory
Nobody's hoarding bread; it spoils. Bread in shops is waiting to be sold, and the intent is to sell every loaf to be eaten by someone...
Whatwhatsomethingbutt
CakeOrGlory
..hungry. People are hoarding *money*, and the amount of money available doesn't affect the amount of bread for the most part. Whether...
tlamstrike
We actually have more money in circulation than we have "bread" that is why prices are going up. Also people tend not to hoard money since①
tlamstrike
horded money does nothing but loose value over time. Large amounts of money are kept in banks where they earn interest and can be loaned②
tlamstrike
out to others or invested in stocks and bonds so businesses can grow and gov't can fund their operations.③
CakeOrGlory
..Bezos has a trillion in the bank or a dollar, there is the same amount of bread to go around. Rich people have too much POWER, not too...
CakeOrGlory
..much bread, or money. There is not enough bread because they have squandered our resources to maintain their control.
andydicktracymorganfairchild
No it isn't. The orphan crushing machine is there for a reason. Stop trying to stand in the way of progress.
subject6661
But did you know the opposite of pro is con, just as the opposite of progreds is congress
littlecoatfatguy
The orphan-crushing machine is a key driver of our Q3 earnings.
WorthEveryPenny
Tradition*** not progress
Zombieemperor
Progress is haveing those orphans build more machines!
MisterLemons
Orphan blood has a slightly higher friction coefficient than water but it's also cheaper, sooo...
MilkfromNose
Gov: We can stop the machine. But then we need to tax your income 0,02% more. People: Crush! Crush! Crush!
GravyEducation
magicrhombus
I was expecting "children" to be replaced by "billionaires" here.
ImmaCatImmaSexyCat
No, they say "Stop trying to progress. The current system works fine."
PhailRaptor
Yeah but wouldn't we make more progress by dismantling the orphan crushing machine?
seije
and just what do you expect those people to do who run the orphan-crushing machine? you want them to be out of a job?
reichstein
What, and go back to crushing orphans with our bare hands like savages?
meergull
Listen here, you little commie
Filanwizard
sadly if we dismantle it the Dow Jones will lose 10 points and the politicians cannot have their scoreboard look bad
Filanwizard
I mean any time something comes up that would truly help people someone always asks "how will the markets react" which always seemed dumb.
Filanwizard
Because its the job of a government to serve the people, Not the markets. They would just have to adapt.
RemtonDulyak
There are two sides to a story, mate. You have to wonder, what has the orphan done to be sent to the orphan crushing machine? Find the truth
SpoonOfDoom
Look, I don't have time for your fancy philosophical questions, I've got to start my mandatory shift as orphan crushing machine operator
ashittypuncomment
Pfft spoken like an orphan that doesn't want to get crushed
Praethius
Typical orphans
Fuyu159753
Really, no one wants to get crushed anymore.
UnitConversionBotButTerrible
No one from this generation has the gumption to go get crushed. Back in my day it was expected youd be crushed.
Praethius
Orphans Are Now "Quiet Dying" And Heres What It Means For Your Workplace
ImmaCatImmaSexyCat
The orphan-crushing machine has gotten us this far. Why abandon something that seems to be working?
sturmhauke
Pay no mind to rumors that the road behind us was paved with orphan bones. Besides, what's done is done. Onwards to a brighter future!
solsactual
Yes indeed, gotten us this far. Down what road? To what destination?
sturmhauke
Anyone who questions the wisdom of the orphan crushing machine will be required to do maintenance on its inner workings, that they may >
sturmhauke
better understand its magnificence. This may require the sacrifice of one or more limbs, but it's a small price to pay.
maskedrabbit
Listen, the alternative might be worse. Maybe instead of orphans it would just be a people crushing machine. Best to keep grinding orphans/s
CharlieWoolf
It’s because you’re meant to think of capitalism as a good and beyond question. Debating it’s ethicality is therefore unnecessary
Strostkovy
Well I make bread for a living. If I don't get paid I can't continue making bread and have to do something else.
n0gal
If you make bread, you'd understand just how much edible bread you're throwing away at the end of the day that could otherwise be given.
Ikwilstroopwaffels
Other. Struggling. People. Are. Not. Your. Enemy. Do I need crayons?
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
perhaps a system where you are forced to work to survive is unethical, and we don't actually need to organize things in such a way
Sulexar
Then life is unethical, because literally everything has to work to survive. You don't get to mooch off other people, trash.
SteveTheEgg
Look at this idiot who doesn't realize the modern worker is putting hundreds of more hours than a medieval serf.
Bawdiepie
That is the anglo-saxon puritan work ethic. It is not actually true. There are examples in nature if you think about it.
DongSayaDae
You do realize that in a "paradise world" so to speak, there wouldnt be costs, and everyone share everything, and no one, and everyone mooch
DongSayaDae
Basically, anything systemized "for profits" is unethical by nature as it revovles around taking from others more than you give.
Cassian
And yet, Musk gets to mooch off of the work engineers did for him, while wranglers kept him away from projects. Bootlicking trash.
CircmcisionIsRape
Humans are the only species that pays taxes. Your statement is false and irrelevant. Moron.
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
not really. business owners don't work to survive, they merely use decision making power stolen from workers to exploit them
thisisprocrastination
That is just so stupid on multiple levels, I shouldn't even reply. Smh, you're so far gone from reality, you will likely never heal.
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
oh look, a reactionary being ableist, that's new ?
Eli93
Funny, we think the same about you.
narcoleptiKnickers
Chances are bread hoarders are controlling the market and forcing you into very low profit margins.
GravyEducation
And hey they stopped making bread! Well let's just lock them in a kitchen and force them to do it. They can have some but they can't leave.
thelegendofthetwistednavigator
Do bread hoarders work closely with the Loch Ness Monster? Who is hoarding a food that goes off unless you freeze it?
thelegendofthetwistednavigator
When the energy to power the freezer is more expensive than the bread? Are we complaining about Banshees and Slenderman as well?
XenoHorse
Not literal bread, it's an example. Here in my country medical supplies hid their supplies while people died from treatable diseases.
didgeboy287
Your response was so much nicer than how I was going to explain "it's not about bread."
stevencloser
Ask corporations that rather poison the leftovers they didn't sell than to give them to the needy.
req4adream99
And if I don’t survive, they’ll b no one to buy your bread, so you won’t get paid and you’ll have to change jobs. H. Ford (the nazi-/1
Sulexar
Or they'll just scale down their breadmaking operation and just keep feeding themselves. Cute try though.
req4adream99
Scale it down too much and you don’t have a business anymore. But don’t worry…I’m sure the leopards won’t eat YOUR face.
CircmcisionIsRape
That just means they get fired and still don't make any money
req4adream99
Simping pos) understood this and cut his companies profits by raising his workers pay so that he would continue selling vehicles if not/2
req4adream99
Inherently increasing his customer base due to loyalty to their employer. His overall slice of the pie was smaller - but the pie continued/3
req4adream99
To grow.
ChristopherHallett
Lmao no, he raised pay rates because the workers were threatening to unionise. They still did later because the company treated them so bad.
req4adream99
You may want to check your timeline. Unions didn’t even start to get close to actual power until the 1930s long after ford raised wages in/1
req4adream99
1914. It was still common practice jst to lay everyone off, and since it was assembly line work workers were easy to replace. But sure.
ChristopherHallett
Nothing you said actually contradicts what I said. Go go reading comprehension!
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
also, if you aren't the owner of the bakery but an employee, the value you produce by making bread is being stolen from you by the owner,
SalmonTheWise
Unless you do every step between growing grain and selling fresh bread you are stealing value from someone in supply chain before you.
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
who uses their ownership and your needs to extort work out of you. ideally, you'd be free to make bread however you please, with a say in
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
your working conditions, hours, and what is done with the bread you bake and you should be able to refuse to work without fearing the loss
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
of your means of survival. the only thing you should lose is input over those other things as they no longer affect you.
moodytravesty
no, I trade that value to have them take the risks with the materials, machinery, taxes, healthcare, etc
paulwall117350
You could just as easily be collectivizing and thus minimizing those risks and costs by distributing them, and the profit, among the workers
Redbulloth
If it's so easy, surely people are doing it left and right, yeah?
paulwall117350
It's only difficult because of the incredible power of huge capital. If it were illegal for giant companies to make efforts to shut down any
paulwall117350
"But who will take the initial startup cost risk?" The workers could afford it pretty easily by saving up all the extra money they'll make
paulwall117350
from profit sharing at their current business.
moodytravesty
I choose to let them take all the risk and costs, so I can spend my money with my family
paulwall117350
Right, as if your boss has any less money to spend with his family. Besides, it's not really a choice if capitalism makes the other option
Sulexar
Trade is not theft.
CircmcisionIsRape
Wage slavery isn't trade. Imbecile.
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
the employer-employee relationship is not on equal terms and is inherently coercive under capitalism, it is not fair trade
thisisprocrastination
Right, good thing the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics made it equal, fair, and lovely. No coercion happened there. Nor in PRC under Mao.
Bawdiepie
The only 2 alternatives are the most exploitative form of capitalism or the most totalitarian form of socialism? False dichotomy
ChaoticGoodTransGirl
i am not an advocate of vanguardist communism, that isnt the only alternative. anarchists advocate a unification of ends and means...
averageNerdyGuy
Because the second question is obviously immoral. Gotta have grey areas for an ethical dilemma.
channelranger
Feel like the first isn't any kind of dilemma. Stealing to feed your family when you're starving is pretty much a no brainer imo.
channelranger
the question doesn't say it's a famine or you're stealing from other poor people or something, so it's pretty easy.
Mec26
If: child is literally malnourished, then: fuck walmart, take home that wonderbread and a little jar of peanut butter.
Mec26
Clear the fucking PB aisle, feed all the kids, give not one fuck.
eightyearplan
socrates (maybe?) started this ethics game - there are going to be follow-up questions to find where we start drawing lines of ok / not ok..
channelranger
Makes more sense then, I suppose
eightyearplan
and then maybe break those up .. maybe come back together with a more robust, or accurate, or virtuous, or Just.. beliefs.