Ice2Ice2
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Apr 18, 2022 12:51 AM
Ice2Ice2
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Promethianfire
It's there to identify and, hopefully correct discrimination. In many cases this is required by law.
Preincarnated
Cool, cool, cool. That way we can go back to no data so that the racism inherent in the system goes back to being invisible & easy to hide?
shinagami091
The reason they ask is for affirmative hire and action and lending equality
shinagami091
and if they shouldn’t be asking in rental applications. That’s against fair housing laws on the federal level
Amalizzy
Living in europe. None of those are the thing here.
kindergardencop
Wait this is a thing in America. How is that legal?
manulofdoom
You said it yourself: it's in America.
WilliamHuskerAdama
I'm 32 and I've never had to put down my race for anything. Norway though. I can understand a developing country like the US is a bit behind
Neonbaron
Same with disability if it doesn't matter stop asking
Muunk
What if we all choose "other"?
Preincarnated
Then we lose any valuable data about actual discrimination that may be taking place, I guess? And who needs that...
autocorrectfailures
Erasing the data just helps erase the evidence of racism. Makes it harder to catch the racists in the act.
armagetz
How precisely are racists are identifying those of race in an mail in/online request for credit?
Metatality
Usually just making an assumption from name and zip code.
autocorrectfailures
Eventually the hiring person will meet the hiree, the box on paper is to leave a trail for people NOT meeting. And for auditors if need be.
msporkboy
No company wants to track race. The US gov't makes any company that sells to the gov't with >50 employees make an affirmative action plan.
indawgwetrust
A lot of companies want to track race. It's how they make affirmative action hires without resorting to "this guy looked ethnic, hire him"
OdinYggd
And a lot of companies methodically stay at 49 employees or less so that they can hire by merit instead of skin color.
TK421isAFK
That's not why they were staying under 50 employees - it's to avoid providing medical benefits per the ACA.
mercbrit
The poeple that say the info is there to protect people from racism have a serious flaw in their argument!
DoomKitty01
Do you really have to put down information about the made up thing called 'race' or your nationality? I mean...that's ridiculous^^
Richardza
In South Africa its mandatory, because companies have to hire a certain amount of non-white people to be certified to get certain contracts
TheNervousGiraffe
What?? You guys have "race" as a part of a these applications? That is fucked up..
Drack69
Insurance, home loan, any form on the internet.
robaunet24
You guys seriously have to state your race on these applications? I really can feel the freedom here. Greetings from europe
manulofdoom
Look at them in this comment claiming that it's akshually a GOOD thing... it's wild
aaaaaandimdone
Australian here: You put your "race" of job applications? Huh, weird... didn't know anyone but humans could apply for human jobs.
adrianenspired
it's a way to discover discrimination. an employer or landlord WILL find out either way; the box lets the gov't know and track trends.
sweetnaivety
Don't the forms always also say that the info isn't shared with the employer or landlord? At least for on the computer it can work.
Cac2008
But that can be captured on employment and shared, which could be mandated. Then we get best of both worlds.
DameDePiques
Yup. And with those trends they are better able to target black people in voter suppression laws. Oh, and gerrymandering.
DameDePiques
Very nice, having all those stats close at hand.
SeeShark
I wonder whether or not OP realizes they're posting pro-racist propaganda. :/
Cac2008
It's hardly that. It's a good idea to remove discrimination from checks. We can still ask for the data on appointment and share then.
palmo
Check their comment history. They're kinda a piece of shit.
SeeShark
Looking at the history, they seem like a dirtbag liberal without enough education to do social justice well, who gets off on being shitty.
[deleted]
[deleted]
SeeShark
Didn't see that, it appears you're right. (No need to downvote, though)
armagetz
I’m torn on this. I don’t want discrimination. But if the decision is made off of non race factors it’s NOT discriminatory (1)
armagetz
(2)and trying to cite a particular race being targeted when they weren’t is wrong. It fuels a feedback mechanism that could mask the root
armagetz
(3)cause.
LordNergal
One of my prior jobs had zero black people. Not because they didn't hire black people, but simply because black people didn't apply. They 1/
LordNergal
did not solve that issue the entire time I worked there, despite spending a good ten percent of their budget on consultancy firms to try 2/
Cac2008
It would still be discriminatory if it were based on gender, religion or age. Race isn't the only protected characteristic.
armagetz
Agreed. Was more referring to the increasingly frequent analysis that claims the decision was racist even when race was no part
Cac2008
Ah gotcha, in which case totally yes. That word seems more of a reflect response these days.
armagetz
As the saying goes, correlation does not imply causation. And when I studied experimental statistics I didn’t catch an asterisk citing (2)
armagetz
(3)an exception if the topic was politically charged or if there was capital to be gained.
MuttonsChopped
The problem is that we started putting that question on those things so we could actually catch discrimination. Not having that info 1/2
buddhabud11
Yeah, that's not why those questions are present on those forms...very sweet to assume an anti-discrimination intent, tho.
NotWelcomehere
It absolutely IS. I work in the mortgage industry, before those forms, it was their name that they used to discriminate...it wasn't tracked.
buddhabud11
Actually it was a requirement in the mortgage process in the past, per the practice of red-lining. And that's a small part of how the civil
buddhabud11
rights act was construed to favor policies with racist intent, but only as long as that intent wasn't overt (ie, nothing in writing). So the
buddhabud11
option is there, but it's unlawful to require a response. So they go about it in other ways with almost zero ability to prosecute. This is a
photog
Businesses could still be required to report race after your hired. They just wouldn't know until you had an interview.
MuttonsChopped
makes it hard to actually catch racists in the act of discrimination, they can always say it was something else if we don't have the data.
lewdev
Makes sense. Damn if you do, damn if you don't. But better to have the data than not IMO.
JesaraB
The problem is who has access to that info and when.
crusadurus
Ya and sadly they just use peoples name to be racist. That was long ago proven in a study.
whydoesitmatteranywayman
They can always say it was something else either way. You would need a trend or them to admit their bigotry. Adding questions about "race"
whydoesitmatteranywayman
Does not help.
opentangent
Don't fool yourself, having race and/or gender on any non-medical records is ultimately a net negative for society
TwoWheelsGoodFourWheelsBad
Canadian here. We have no idea how racism plays out here.
WayOfTheScience
another canadian here, when they do have that info on job applications here info is voluntary and for minorities/women to get first shot
CheetoDustedMalcontent
Race can't be removed from these things because the check box isn't the only racial indicator.
Cac2008
That data could be tracked once the person is employed, no? But for application it stops discrimination from existing.
MASonBass
Racism/prejudice/bias will still creep in. Example: more calls for interviews go to applicants w/ more traditonally white names
Cac2008
Totally, which is why I'm all for a stripped application. No name, email, social media, race, gender, religion, the works
Cac2008
But this still doesn't stop classism with regards university (if relevant), and location of high school etc might give race away
SolaceAvatar
Ah, but it won't be tracked on the people not employed, and they can figure out your race during the interview
Bladedrummer
How do you prove when there is discrimination then?
Preincarnated
That's the fun part, you don't! Just pretend we're too enlightened b/c we're post that race stuff, then sweep racial issues under the rug...
CypherSteak
I wish this wasn't a thing. I'm mixed but light skinned and have a "black" sounding name. I've been told I "wasn't what they expected" b4.
greggbert
This is a thing so that if a bank in alabama starts denying loans from hispanics they government can find out about that.
rvisual01
That could increase bias... Imgur has the political sophistication of a College Freshman on break before second semester.
peggleforscale
Pretty much, the stuff I read here sometimes seems reactionary.
rvisual01
Oh yeah
Oteneo
a lot of imgur ARE college freshman on break before second semester
rvisual01
...Well that explains it
StuckInBetweeen
I disagree with this. I would like to know that kind of race in applying to. Don't want to walk into a 1km race expecting a 100 meter run.
Chumbawhumba
Wait, you have to declare your race for that shit in the US? Holy fuck you guys need some tougher anti-discrimination laws..
lrateyourrig
I lie. What are they gonna do?
Preincarnated
Not detect legitimate trends in discrimination due to falsified data, i guess?
greggbert
Why would they care if you lie on a form that' s supposed to protect you. They'd probably think it's great.
VillagerJeff
Not hire you when they see you've lied. What else did you lie about on your application? Did ypu really get the degree you say you have?
lrateyourrig
On CC apps, I lie about my earning too. Usually by about 30%. Fuck em.
TK421isAFK
That doesn't matter. Banks verify your income via Social Security reportings.
2B4U
Normally, out of curiosity, they’ll call you for an interview if you are earning well. You’ll be person of interest :)
imsam77
I mean, that really just hurts you (or people who lie about it). It really just helps set a credit limit...which is helpful for people who
imsam77
aren't great at self control/management.
MacNero00
Wanna explain what you mean?
imsam77
If they impose a lower limit, there is less money you can rack up. That limit is based on risk, and tied closely to income available.
VillagerJeff
How many CC have you applied for that this is something you usually do?
ruferto
why? doesnt earning more make you more creditworthy?
RedFairladyZ32
They consider debt to income ratio when granting credit, so yes.
2B4U
Sorry… my comment is related to a job interview :)
ruferto
i responded to the comment on credit card applications, not yours tho
lrateyourrig
It's a factor, yes.
greggbert
This is "testing causes covid" logic here. Those questions are for measuring to confirm that race is not a factor. How do you not know this
peggleforscale
Sometimes logic is a luxury.
BillHubbard
In the EU it's not even allowed to ask for it. Nor is asking for religion. Also, don't supply age and gender on applications.
DameDePiques
In Germany the government asks about religion because they tax you accordingly and use it to finance the Church you chose.
DameDePiques
If you answer "atheist", they don't tax you. I find that pretty neat, but I still prefer that State be entirely separated from Church.
BillHubbard
Or you can choose not to answer.
420supercoolusername69
It’s a double edged sword. My industry tracks race/ethnicity to weed out discrimination. Others use that info to deny ppl service.
TheSupremeCrabMaster
Catch-22. You can't take it off applications because it encourages discrimination, but if you do it enables some discrimination.
Bertfisch
How would that work? Honest question. I mean if you dont know you cant discriminate?! I know there are still the names but besides that.
MyNameInYourBlood
And they'll use things like the type of name or your zip code. So yeah.
iCurse
To be fair, statistics don't lie, but are deemed racist too nowadays. It's just a fact that minorities cause issues in some places because
iCurse
they either come from different cultures with different values or because it's a vicious cycle of having to fight for everything
stabthecrab
Word, I thought most of that request was to help minorities, and their rights groups want them there
puffyjacket69
Thank you. You have to consider race to help regulate things.
greggbert
Who does? What others? That's not how it works.
420supercoolusername69
boevis
Are you questioning that racism exists?
apostlepk
It all comes down to people who are assholes, and how do you change them?
bronx72a
I think normal people are assuming OP means well but is naive. Judging from their comment history, I think OP means harm and is an idiot.
EveHarringtonClub
MyCakeDayOnlyComesOnceEveryFourYears
I was just thinking that it would be nice if you could easily see a user's average comment score before responding to them
Sm9yCg
Rofl. You really believe that bullshit, do you? Eliminate tracking is the first step to ending discrimination.
interesseret
I recently applied to a place that specifically requested no pictures be included to ensure fair hiring.
LaronX
As long as there is a name it is useless. Just s different group is being tragted
GuestChrist
They can weed the undesirables out at the interview. You know, those who just wouldn't be a "good fit".
Corin
And then they'll just look at a minority and instantly label them undesirable. Interviews are flawed too.
GuestChrist
That was my point. They'll virtue signal about the applications then weed out undesirables- minorities, older folks, etc.
Frederf
What counts as genuine effort if any act is assumed to be "just virtue signalling"? How can you tell the difference.
Taxicat
This is why a lot of symphonies and orchestras switched to “blind auditions” where they can’s see or speak to the applicant. They have to >
Sooner70
Wait... Where in the hell have pictures ever been a thing outside of acting jobs?
reynoldser
I know it's standard in some countries
everythingiscats
China, Germany, Finland, Denmark, Japan, Korea, Hungary. Possibly also Spain and France.
Vereydonn
Netherlands
ABBOTTDOESNTCARE
Bruh, I’ve seen so many resumes for a retail position that included headshots.
sparkletempt
Europe for one, not mandatory but very common and you are considered at disadvantage if you don't have it
kingkrim222
I use to do a lot of recruiting. I would notice a lot of indian born applicants would attach a picture with a resume.
interesseret
I'm danish and the job was for an in-factory robotics mechanic. It's pretty standard here.
LarvaLamp
Call girls.
nullundefined
Everywhere outside US? In Germany we also mention our parents and their occupations in applications for apprenticeship.
Sooner70
Wow. Under anything that attempts to be a fair system why would your parents matter?
krizzizle
Not common outside of industries dependent on your image (acting, modeling etc) in Canada either
BeeDragon
I believe they are common in some countries.
z0mbieb0y
It is in Germany
chrisjfinlay
Yeah I’m a UK-based hiring manager, and when we started recruiting in Bulgaria I was so confused why people were sending photos on CVS
RatchetnClank
I mean they'll see you at the interview /s
prettydumb
it doesnt weed out anything if its on an application. this isnt a survey. "weeding out" is, by definition, discrimination
trojanplatypus
Would you mind explaining how?
PeskiPanda
There's a lot of info about how that data is meant to be used for good. If you're up for a bit of research maybe start with the 4/5ths rule.
tivvybrixx
In my industry we have built in rules and regulators that make sure everyone is treated equally. See Hmda
Taxicat
Harvard had a blog post regarding some studies/surveys about primary/secondary standardized tests gathering demographic data. It found >
Taxicat
>that female and minority students who had to answer those questions at the beginning of the test did significantly worse than those who >
Taxicat
>either weren’t asked at all, or were only asked at the very end of the test. Those students reported being more anxious and >
Taxicat
>second-guessing their answers a lot more than usual, out of the fear that the person grading their test would see the demographic data >
Chezoso
That and they would still discriminate against them by their names
FunTimes8226
Yea just go ask Hassan Al Razhak or Leroy Jenkins
NorthmanoftheNorth
In MUCH LESS RACIST Norway this is a huge issue. People named Mohammad are 60% less likely to get an interview than Martin.
LurkerOfDarkness
Indeed it is a problem, but the solution is certainly NOT to add pseudoscience to the applications fields to fill.
420supercoolusername69
Great experiment about names… https://freakonomics.com/podcast/how-much-does-your-name-matter-ep-122-rebroadcast/
KiwiGameDev
https://youtu.be/5vSaEMXtXEY
BlahBlahTurtle
Unconcious bias it's called in ai
corvusvalerius9000
In Britain all good-practice hiring removes names from apps too.
Chezoso
I actually make it a point to to go straight to job history. That way name or references doesn't affect me as much
Cutlass0516
Isn't there a "prefer not to answer" option usually?
YayItsMillerTime
I prefer not to answer
freckledkink
Yes
NZSheeps
That means you're not white
VillagerJeff
I'm white but I marked prefer not to answer when on a job search.
NZSheeps
VillagerJeff
I don't want to work somewhere that places my application higher because I'm white. Doesn't sound like an enjoyable environment.
ntek2
Is this a thing in the states? I've never seen a race box on any of these in Canada
buddhabud11
Wtf is up with these answers? It's an OPTION, and you don't have to respond. This post is super duper stupid.
FlippedOut
Its illegal in Australia to ask or even keep that sort information. If an employer gathers personal information they can be fined.
Ettasoeurellebatlebeurre
Same in France. It's illegal to ask or store this kind of info. Because the last time we did, it was used to send people to the Gaz chambers
peggleforscale
Different situations, here it’s used as evidence in case of discrimination.
peggleforscale
Comparison you can track how many people were rejected based on ethnicity in comparison to other groups.
gordy77
They want to know if Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander though to help achieve opportunity goals
AoEnwyr
It’s always optional to answer it though, you’re not required to and can’t be forced
DonOviedo
Colombian here: I've never seen a similar thing here or any other latinamerican country
Zeefox
Not even questions about language spoken at home or whether you're indigenous?
HighFunctioningAlcoholic
It's optional for job apps. Definitely not on rental applications.
popeyeNL
Or the Netherlands.
cadesama
It's a voluntary field. You do not have to answer and it is illegal for it to be used in hiring.
Preincarnated
In some of these forms yeah. I'm pretty sure, though, that 99% of the time there is a decline to answer option. May be mandatory.
capughe
Job apps definitely, but voluntary self identification. Usually just "woman or visible minority" and sometimes you can detail what minority
isaidwatwatinthebutt
yeah, only after moving to states I learned that I'm supposed to be called Cow·ca·sian now
isaidwatwatinthebutt
And when I tried to tell americans I've never been to Caucaus Mountains, everyone looked weird at me.
SoniqueTui
I've only seen it on a census, or for a passport. Tho that has valid reasons.
Promethianfire
In many cases its mandated to identify discrimination.
ntek2
I'm sure it helps...
imabigasstree
It helps when accusing someone of discrimination. Traceable evidence
ruferto
filling it in, however, is almost never mandatory
buddhabud11
No, it's really really not. This post is ridiculously stupid and inaccurate.
isetprettygirlsonfire
Yes, every form, especially government forms
LurkerOfDarkness
Racism is so ingrained in US culture even weak attempts to do something about it are incredibly racist.
ntek2
I think the only time I've ever had to fill that out on a form was for travel visas from other countries and my passport.
palmo
And almost every single one let's you decline to answer.
buddhabud11
What? No lol. That's not even remotely true.
TK421isAFK
No, it's not. I've never seen one on a rental application or credit card application, and it's only on the Federal form that HR sends in 1/2
TK421isAFK
for statistics purposes. They may use it, but when they do, it often benefits non-whites because companies use it to diversify. 2/2
theusernameformerlyknownastildo
Got a speeding ticket in the states in the early 90s. Was shocked to see race on the ticket.
buddhabud11
Right. As far as documentation goes, that's there for the same reason that your height and weight are.
Preincarnated
You want police NOT having to account who they are pulling over so we don't know they're doing it to minorities 10x as often?
theusernameformerlyknownastildo
Race is not on driving infractions in Canada. In fact, race, unless you choose to self identify, is NOT on forms. It's odd to me that it is.
Hiboredimdad
It's on every job application here in Ont. Sometimes multiple times.
ProfessionalTiddyToucher
Came here to say this. Never seen this in Alberta
ntek2
That's where I am
buddhabud11
This literally isn't a thing in the US. It's an option that you don't have to respond to, and requiring it is unlawful. This post is stupid.
PokingSmot
French or English.
Esdog
France isn't people, it's cheese and wine with baguette legs
MorrowDisca
Never had to state my race in the UK for anything other than gov forms.
ntek2
Usually a checklist of languages you can speak. You must be able to speak the official language of the province, or both in some jobs.
PokingSmot
I just mean here in Quebec if you ask for English copies of anything, you're going to have a bad time
ntek2
Oh obviously, I find Montreal the only tolerable place in Quebec. Everywhere else is happy to accommodate Francophones usually
Harbltron
What if I charcuterie some French into their ears before I ask for the English shit?
PokingSmot
This is acceptable
binaryspike
In all the cases I seen it, it's "equal opportunity" related. Employers get tax breaks for handing it out.
buddhabud11
Wow. No, you haven't seen it any cases. That's not how any of that works. Also this post is stupid and totally inaccurate.
binaryspike
Care to elaborate? I've had an employer and a college admissions both confirm that to me.
buddhabud11
Not in the US. It's almost always included on forms, for a lot of reasons, but it's unlawful to require it as a basis for approval or
buddhabud11
employment. Discrimination DOES happen, but the way companies avoid getting caught for it is to *avoid* documentation like this as much as
EmeraldLight
There's a box for Aboriginal status, though.
odoitau
Me either. I wouldn't be surprised if such a thing were illegal in Canada.
Elvirana
it's illegal in Germany, I believe.
LSDontknowwhatsgoingon
It's pretty common here. I have seen it quite a few times.
buddhabud11
Yeah. It's illegal to require this in the US. This post is stupid. My guess is that a 12 year old saw something on tiktok lol.
jared743
details vary by province, but in general it is illegal to ask for job applications and credit, and asking on a housing application isnt 1/2
jared743
specifically illegal, but would expose you to lawsuits that a decision was made based on that.