LiberalinTXHelp
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I like facts....
Apr 30, 2013 2:36 PM
LiberalinTXHelp
171
56
32
TheHeadTheTailTheWholeDamnFish
Yes, I'm sure the only reason Honduras has more crime than Switzerland is because the Swiss own more guns.
DennisW
Polled felons don't have horns.
Eeeeyore
Do a study on Australia, that will fuck your numbers!
judgementalginger
what about uses for funsies? I like to go up to a shooting range for target practice. Not self defense, not murder, just fun.
LiberalinTXHelp
Well, most people forget that your right to own a firearm might include other such pursuits besides violence on one another.
judgementalginger
how silly of them!
jarrettalexander
pffft republicnas
LiberalinTXHelp
You should check my username...
LiberalinTXHelp
Downvoted cause you can't read....very mature
LiberalinTXHelp
Bad Title: I should have said something like, I like debatable statistics that cause overly emotional reactions in mass groups. Apologies.
rossimus
Comparing homicide rates with Honduras and Ivory Coast doesn't really say much. Thats like saying we're freer than N.Korea.
Sturbinator
rossimus
Australia set very strict gun ownership laws and now experiences next to no gun violence. Conveniently omitted from this "study."
Wine100
Case and point that stats can prove anything http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22275280
GeorgeOscarBluth
In Australia, annual homicides by any means total
2010: 217
2009: 261
2008: 251
GeorgeOscarBluth
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia
RevanProdigalKnight
Post percentages, not actual numbers. THEN we'll compare notes.
GeorgeOscarBluth
Follow the link
LukeAlford
So per 100,000 people, the UK is more violent. Doesn't surprise me. Go to any town centre in the UK on a Friday and Saturday night, 1/2
LukeAlford
and you will see lots of violence, mostly drunk people. 2/2
Studoku
When you put it like that, the argument of "let's give them all guns" seems a lot less like a good idea.
Rockety
keep your guns, ill buy popcorn for your next mass shooting
LiberalinTXHelp
That's a poor statement considering the average number of deaths per mass shooting where armed, law abiding citizens are involved
raidn07
Sweet post, lots of good facts with sources. Too bad the libs on imgur are going to downvote it into oblivion. Not so open minded, haha
rossimus
Research and critical evaluation makes much of this chart dubious. Comparing us to the Ivory Coast, for example, and omitting Australia.
handfullofberries
Sorry, mind closed due to overstuffed with fact.
LiberalinTXHelp
Being the LiberalInTX...I am receiving an inordinate amount of flack for this...
handfullofberries
Lol, no. Guess again.
LiberalinTXHelp
Um...what? This literally makes no sense. Guess what again, my username?
handfullofberries
Oy, you're a dumb one, arntchya. You're not getting flack for being liberal, you're getting flack for this completely bias infograph.
LiberalinTXHelp
FUCK YOU. You're word choice (we call that diction) in your response made no sense. I can't jump up your ass and read your mind.
LiberalinTXHelp
Maybe next time try putting an entire thought down instead of some half-assed insult.
bbqhamsters
Down voting doesn't make it less true.
handfullofberries
Nope, but it does mean more people doubt it's true.
AllfatherOdhinn
You may want to look into what a "violent crime" is here in the UK . We cover far more, which makes direct comparison totally useless.
LiberalinTXHelp
Really? I was not aware of this. What are some of differences? Serious question, here.
AllfatherOdhinn
We record *any* crime against a person as a violent crime. I could pick your pocket without you feeling it, and it's a violent crime.
LiberalinTXHelp
Really!? I can see how that would skew things. Any justification for that, or just the way it is done there? +1 for the knowledge.
AllfatherOdhinn
How figures are recorded are more about government being able to twist them than being used for anything useful. Same with any statistics.
LiberalinTXHelp
I hate when people downvote reason....
LiberalinTXHelp
This is a valid point of contention.
Studoku
+1 for well-researched arguments about a serious issue.
Studoku
Aside from the bit with the highest murder rate vs highest gun ownership. Those stats are just bad.
CatzonVinyl
The general correlation there wasn't really a focal point. They focused a bit better shortly after on comparing European states.
Studoku
The US vs UK bit was far more helpful.
TheHeadTheTailTheWholeDamnFish
Shirley, you can't be serious. This is misleading as balls.
LiberalinTXHelp
Also, don't call him Shirley. ;) Sorry, had to point out the LN refernece.
LiberalinTXHelp
*reference...just, wow
Studoku
They're stats to prove a point- OP admits that. I genuinely haven't seen anything as well sourced from the other side of the debate.
TheHeadTheTailTheWholeDamnFish
The bit comparing the top 4 countries for gun ownership and homicide rates was ridiculously pointless. There are FAR too many variables.
Studoku
I specifically called out that bit for being crap because it was. The rest was good.
LiberalinTXHelp
I have specifically agreed with Studoku about that point, elsewhere. It is a broad rebuttal to the "guns increase violence" argument.
rossimus
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/total_number_of_gun_deaths
ilovedesk
You also cite John Lott multiple times, who has been discredited multiple times as a researcher.
LiberalinTXHelp
This is not my study so I can't say for sure, but reviewing the sources I don't see that name anywhere....
ilovedesk
Source 12. Also anything that says more guns=less crime
LiberalinTXHelp
Also, the more guns=less crime bit came from a Harvard Law Journal study, I don't know if Lott was involved, but I'll check it out
LiberalinTXHelp
Found it...that study is officially reference 1 time and I will look into this guy and his validity. Thanks for pointing it out. +1
ilovedesk
In the years since the Vietnam war more Americans have been killed from gun violence than in all our wars combined.
LiberalinTXHelp
Source? Also, is population a consideration in that?
ilovedesk
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf
LiberalinTXHelp
Where does it say that?
Studoku
I'm willing to bet more Americans have been killed in car accidents too. Should we ban cars?
rossimus
So if you can't eliminate all deaths, why bother trying to eliminate any?
handfullofberries
No, what I think we should do is moderate who can drive a car and have strict laws on how to drive them. Oh... wait...
Studoku
Like America does with guns.
handfullofberries
The regulations on guns are laughable, don't kid yourself.
ilovedesk
more people drive than own guns.
Studoku
So?
ilovedesk
His argument is to increase the amount of guns and decrease crime. If you increase cars, more people die. You cannot compare the two
LiberalinTXHelp
That is not my argument, or the argument of this post. It is that gun ownership is not directly responsible for increases in crime
bigman0089
gun violence, or gun deaths? because around 2/3rds of gun deaths are from suicide, which should not be counted as gun violence IMO.
ilovedesk
2/3rds of homicides are committed by guns
bigman0089
yes, but people love throwing out the 30-40K number, which is only deaths, and is 2/3rds suicides
ilovedesk
you are absolutely correct
LiberalinTXHelp
How many of those are suicides? Homicide is a pretty broad term...
ilovedesk
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide
ilovedesk
The Killing of a human being by another human being. Thats the difference between homicide and suicide.
LiberalinTXHelp
Ok, that was a dumbass statement by me. I retract that.... I should know better. Maybe got caught up in being blasted by so many at once
GeorgeOscarBluth
Why don't you add some Australia statistics?
RevanProdigalKnight
Because quoting statistics from Australia is just as biased as the statistics up top.
Eeeeyore
part 1 of 3 (rest after vid) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pOiOhxujsE
LiberalinTXHelp
Why don't you? This isn't my study, but is all cited at the bottom...refute it if you can.
rossimus
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/total_number_of_gun_deaths
LiberalinTXHelp
You realize I have already posted a study showing violent personal crimes (assault, rape, robbery) have gone up in that same time, right?
rossimus
That doesn't prove correlation. Regardless, fewer guns = fewer homicides. That challenges your original thesis.
LiberalinTXHelp
The post is about gun ownership and violent crime...not just homicide. My thesis is that gun ownership does not increase violent crime.
LiberalinTXHelp
What it does say though, is that criminals are more likely to offend if they know you are unarmed. What % of all crime in Australia (1)
LiberalinTXHelp
Does homicide make up? Also, this study says gun deaths, which include suicide. That is a big difference when talking about crime rates
twofatcatsgames
Statistics are not facts. Take a college level stats class and you will realize that. #s can be made to say anything you want.
RevanProdigalKnight
Heck, even my High School statistics class taught me that.
Execut1ve
no they are not, but they often indicate trends. it seems like you are being intentionally dense here
twofatcatsgames
My point is that you can present these statistics, and I can present that of UK, ZAus, NZ where there are virtually no guns. Low Crime Rates
LiberalinTXHelp
I'd like to see the stats on ALL violent crime from those countries, not just homicide.
twofatcatsgames
They classify dif things as violent crime than here in America. Here attacks against another person physically (assault, battery) 1/2
twofatcatsgames
are violent, there anything that is a crime against another person, physical or not can sometimes be classed as a violent one.
LiberalinTXHelp
Yeah, so I have an MA in Security, a BA in Political Science, and a BS in Criminal Justice....basically, FUCK YOU
LiberalinTXHelp
*Security Studies
twofatcatsgames
Since when does having ANY of THOSE degrees make you an expert in Stats? I did not say anything about your background, I simply said 1/2
LiberalinTXHelp
What do you think Social Scientist do? It is literally all stats
twofatcatsgames
that statistics lie. Not just your stats, but all stat.
LiberalinTXHelp
No, you said take a college class. I literally have compiled stats just like this before.
twofatcatsgames
Then you would know that stats can be made to say really whatever the person wants them to say.
LiberalinTXHelp
If that is your goal, yes. But as someone who looks for truth, that is NEVER my goal. Some of these comparisons are not the best. (1)
LiberalinTXHelp
But others, say Police vs Armed citizens (in America) are very telling.