Otomasoteraph
30876
834
31
Aug 21, 2026 4:18 PM
Otomasoteraph
30876
834
31
akafluffy
WHO THE FUCK IS STEALING MY BARF!?!
philmoregraves
Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave
SwissScars
You want to be careful he doesn't catch you
AyatollahBahloni
Hllll!
IAMSRC
I'm a vegan for a vast majority of each day.
poochyena
The great thing is that being vegan or vegetarian isn't a religion, its a personal choice, so you can make your own decision and decide for yourself what you are comfortable eating.
GrandmaSlappy
THIS
DriverIRQnotlessOrEqual
revasseur
Another issue with bees are that they are non native in the Americas and compete with native pollinators. This might not be so bad for orchards were there's not much natural environment left anyway, but it's something to consider for someone contemplating a hobby hive.
And then apparently there's a lot of fake honey out there.
dejoblue
Bees and cats are our true owners
goflyblind
skinkabamba
Well.. To be honest, I think most domestic animals could easily see things like that: the eldricht ape things demand a sacrifice of flesh every now and then, while they keep all the other predators away
CarInAVet
Bees are unionized.
malachilenomade
"I like my women like I like my coffee: COVERED IN BEES!!" ~ Susie Izzard.
GrandmaSlappy
Hi all! Want to actually hear a take from a vegan? It's not about bee's missing their honey or not having enough. It's about how they're treated by the humans throughout the process. Producing/collecting honey does in fact kill some bees. They also are put on trucks and driven around the country to pollinate crops. This is extremely dangerous and bad for them, and a significant portion don't survive. Personally, I think this makes honey and commercial crops on par with each other in veganism.
Snooj
An apiarist friend once explained to me that providing bees with proper shelter gives them enough time and energy to produce excess honey, which he takes. So if you do it properly the bees aren't even missing out on anything. It is the large corporations that replace their honey with sugar water who are the evil guys. Evil enough to solicit a lawsuit, I imagine.
quade
Yes, honey seals the eldritch pact very nicely.
ukimalefu
Honey is bee vomit
dghughes
Jains in India some who wear a mask so as not to breathe in insects / bugs, sweep in front to avoid any insects/bugs, some only drink only well water and do not drink or eat after sunset but they will drink cow's milk.
GrandmaSlappy
I mean, if the cow is treated nicely and her calves are treated nicely and there's no artificial insemination, over breeding a cow, or slaughter... yeah. I'm vegan but I'd be cool with that.
Navrodel
On one hand - this is some revisionist bull that an actual apiarist wouldn't appreciate. They do a lot of work to manage their hives and keep their queens far beyond what the bees would normally allow.
On the other hand, I don't appreciate strict veganism that excludes non-harmful extraction either. It's the sort of absolutist "People and animals should be completely separate" nonsense I'd expect from PETA - and always, fuck PETA. I'm not a fan of that hard line separation.
Navrodel
In my eyes things like wool, eggs, and honey are pretty sweet deals for the animals, and the partnership benefits all parties with far less harm than the fully plant-based or synthetic alternatives cause.
However, the world could probably be improved if we sought out some alternatives to things like pork, beef, and leather.
The subject deserves more nuance than either side of the "was an animal involved" vs "who cares, they're property" arguement.
GrandmaSlappy
Wool and eggs are very much part of the meat industry. The animals suffer in their captivity, are culled at birth, and slaughtered after their production goes down. Yes, even wool sheep are slaughtered eventually. BUT especially egg laying chickens, they're bred to be egg machines which gives them unhealthy bodies, they grow faster than they should and die at a tiny fraction of their lifespan.
Not a good deal.
We do have alternatives to pork, beef, and leather. Like, a lot of them.
GrandmaSlappy
If the honey industry is a sweet deal, why the colony collapse?
revasseur
Egg hens can be kept in pretty horrid conditions, although it's possible to keep them in better conditions if people are willing to pay the extra price for eggs.
Navrodel
Industrializing any production tends to make pretty horrid conditions if there aren't hard enough regulations around it. Profit first mindset basically strips that compassion out of every process.
That's more a fault of extractive exploitation than it is a core issue with the process of getting the resource.
Again, the subject deserves more nuance, and maybe some of that nuance IS "we should be ensuring better standards of living and be willing to pay a little extra for it"
EasyThereDrax
Now I'm imagining Beekeepers as mob bosses. "That's a nice hive you have there, Queenie. Would be a shame if someone came up and stole your honey."
happypig
Honey is not vegan. https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/features/honey-why-isnt-honey-vegan-and-what-we-can-use-instead/
ISayGoodSirCouldIHaveSomeGoodChemicals
I have never viewed apiaries as exploitive or even as cruel in any sense, they create an environment where bees naturally over produce and that overproduction is what's harvested. It's not exploitive in my opinion so I never got the argument from the vegans/vegetarians who side against honey. Much better than clearing out part of the Amazon for another Quinoa farm.
expectnothingstillletdown
For starters, most beekeeping operations are much more exploitative than you are imagining. But even if you disregard that, bees are sentient beings with their own will, but we do not have any way to communicate with then to get actual informed consent to take their honey. It is theirs- they made it for themselves, and we are stealing it.
ISayGoodSirCouldIHaveSomeGoodChemicals
@SinStar87 here's one of the cruelty advocates if you want to ask them directly about it. To you expect I'll say, yes you aren't wrong some very big honey producers are very exploitive, but for the most part the beekeepers themselves do everything to prevent colony collapse. It's very expensive to START a new colony so if you purposefully exploit it to the point it collapses, it's a very dumb business model. It takes 3 years for a hive to produce to profit. It would be dumb to collapse it.
expectnothingstillletdown
Taking their honey at all is exploitation. They already pollinate crops for us. Taking the food they make after they do would be like if your boss took everything out of your fridge every time you used your paycheck to buy groceries.
ISayGoodSirCouldIHaveSomeGoodChemicals
not quite, it's more like your boss paying for everything in your life, materials, water, housing safety to create an environment where you produce enough food to not only feed yourselves but half of another family as well, so they take that half you don't need and sell it to another family. They don't take all the honey that would kill the hive and then they'd have to start again and it would take 3 years to turn a profit on the new hive. It makes no sense.
expectnothingstillletdown
Ah. So if your boss saw that you can afford more food than you need, they can take all the extra to sell for a profit.
GrandmaSlappy
Bees do indeed die during transportation and collection, and have to overproduce because of losses, not naturally. Worse than just having apiaries are the mobile trucks that pollinate fields. Tons of sick and dead bees.
natabus
I don't know much ab out bees, but do they really "naturally" overproduce? One the one had, I wonder if this is a consequence of breeding, in the same way dairy cows produce more milk than their wild ancestors.
Also, I know that some bee keepers have to feed their bees sugar water, paced in the open near the hive, as a way to make up for the honey they take.
Z0op
In the same vein sheep overproduce wool i guess. Our symbiotic relationship with them caused this situation. To stop or limit it, would negatively affect both parties.
Call it vegan or not, imo, its just semantics at that point. Can you claim to be vegan where you cause animal suffering by _not_ supporting their products?
revasseur
It would be counterproductive to have to feed bees sugar water to make honey. The sugar water is used when setting up a new hive with a small number of bees. Once the hive is established, it'll get all its food from flowers.
Wild bees overproduce too, which helps them thrive and survive even when their honey gets raided by wild animals or conditions get harsh. They're basically compelled to produce honey and they won't stop as long as the conditions are right for it.
Z0op
In the same way that flowers “overproduce” the nectar for bees to feed on, or the mosquitoes multiplying for bats to feed on etc, theres no set limitation what they _have_ to produce, its life fulfilling their evolved functions which allowed them to proliferate.
And with bees its mostly humans who find their function useful and employ them as such, thats how their evolution led to serve us and us humans being fully dependsnt on them (not just honey production!).
Imo, a beautiful symbiosis
ISayGoodSirCouldIHaveSomeGoodChemicals
well they are kept in a secluded hive protected and put near flowers that help them produce honey. they don't have to search, they have minimal risk and from that perspective their natural drive to produce honey is just made more effortless so they overproduce. But the bees still work the same as they would they just don't have to seek as much as they used to because the apiaries put them near their source for nectar.
Z0op
Its not only how “easy” it is for the bees to get heir honey, but also how much they support in pollinating things. Sure, we humans placed everything as efficiently possible so bees ail pollinate what we require them to. But thats a symbiotic relationship isn’t it?
Bees thrive because of the situations we provide, and we reap the benefits. Imho, most natural form of production we got on this planet, and i don’t get why veganism would be against it
Hevach
In the wild they overproduce as well, and some species design hives so a more accessible portion of the nest only has surplus honey and not brood. It's not just a symbiotic relationship with humans, it's also how they mitigate damage from bears or badgers tearing into their hives. Humans are just really, really good at managing the consumer side of that deal so we can keep taking honey from a hive for years without the bees abandoning it.
arajad
And the bees provide a positive benefit to pretty much every flora environment around them, so people with a vegan diet should appreciate the maintenance of apiaries in a world where natural hive locations like dead trees are increasingly scarce.
akafluffy
and polinators are getting more scarce too
poochyena
Honey bees have very little impact on the local flora environment.
happypig
Honey is not vegan https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/features/honey-why-isnt-honey-vegan-and-what-we-can-use-instead/
SerialChickenLover
We have to censor “damn” now? Honestly, what the fuck happened to the Internet?
DatDarthCaedus
I understand that honey technically isn't vegan, but it bothers me that so many vegans who don't eat honey choose to replace it with agave, when agave farming is so *incredibly* destructive; not just killing countless insects from heavy pesticide use and destroying large habitats, but endangering multiple species of bats.
I feel like locally/sustainably produced honey would probably be far more ethical than agave at least, and maple syrup or similar the superior option overall?
VodkaReindeer
By listing "locally" in your requirements you are forgetting that often farming is less destructive somewhere that is not local.
DatDarthCaedus
That would depend entirely on what is farmed, how it is farmed, and where "local" is... and I am comparing two very specific products.
GrandmaSlappy
A very fair point and a lot of vegans know this too. Palm oil is another one that vegans often avoid because of habitat destruction.
But it's about doing less harm and not letting perfect be the enemy of good. Few of us individually have the power to only consume 100% ethical products.
CheeseCoffeeChests
"Damn" gets censored? What bullshit is happening with this fucking internet?
DangerBaer
First world problem.
I censor myself, as a goof, all the sh!tty c@nting time.
Try it. It's fun.
CheeseCoffeeChests
134c|{ 7h3n \/\/3 c4ll3d i7 l33t 5p34|{
DangerBaer
Yeah, I remember gamefaqs.😉
ToasterDent
https://imgur.com/tfk27ge
nclu
All blame to Scunthorpe
LumpPump
this image probably ended up on a site with stricter rules before op found it where ever they found it and posted it here. so it probably wasn't censored for imgur but some other site that would get pissy about it, and of course memes know how to get around cause everyone saves what ever interests them then shit them out on other sites like birds spread seeds
CheeseCoffeeChests
No shit, smartass. But "damn"??? Damn is fine even in Kindergarten or churches...
LumpPump
didnt mean to offend you with my trying to be helpful-tisim, didnt think you would be asking something like that if you already knew websites did that, we get noobs to the internet every day,
also not in the kindergarten or churches i grew up in, i would of got threats to get my mouth washed out. only the preacher man was allowed to say damned where i grew up cause apparently only they used it in the right context, eye rolls here
CheeseCoffeeChests
I am not and was not offended
boobsalot
What next BEAVER ?
CobainsSarcoma
advertisers don't like controversial language
pretty soon everything will read like bored panda wait sorry b**e* p***a and be completely unreadable but will delight the advertising bots to no end
FleaTron
Theres actually a tiny n-word in there
CheeseCoffeeChests
I know what n-word means. But what is "tiny n-word"? No word in this text even starts wth n... i looked through several times.
FleaTron
Its censored, duh!
FrozenCoast
Guidocat
Ok, ill explain it. Hes saying that the end of damn has an n, and in a tiny font they added the rest of the n word. So they had to censor.
NotAGarbageCant
Not by me. But then, i don't give a chicken-fried fuck about the algorithm or whatever
LegoStomper
The entire internet is turning into From Software (Dark Souls) censorship. If you name yourself 'Knight', it shows as 'K***ht' to others.
CheeseCoffeeChests
ChelVanin
Possibly hot take. If we all know exactly what it says, is it really censored?
sarzaya
Makes me think of the unnecessary beeps for comedic effect
HolyFreakingToast
yes
ChelVanin
I see it more as censorship evasion. Censorship would be if the platform completely obscured the word altogether or just removed the post altogether. Self censorship would be if they chose to comply with moderation standards and not write the word. Instead they did write it, and disguised it just enough to evade algorithm detection, but not so much that a human reader can’t read it.
DrKleiner007
Yes
kleinbotl
The most egregious one I saw was the word "documented" because it contained the letters c, u and m in immediate succession
bingotown
Well now I have to start pronouncing it “do-cum-entation” at work.
sockshoesockshoe
basement. Lol
CheeseCoffeeChests
I loved these automatic censorship chats in videogames arond 2010... where the devs just put wordlist in the game that get replassed by stars. Some worked like you described... some use multiple languages at the same time. "Here take this to communicate but you have to guess every 2nd word"
Zan11
"My name is Nasser. Automatic censorship made it worse"
HiddenSanity
Assassin
michiyl
I love games where the auto-censor flags "farther" (because fart) and not doing anything against people with names like H1tlerWasAGoodGuy and such nonsense. Good that they know their priorities.
CheeseCoffeeChests
SS is fine as long you dont put an "a" in front of it
RancidSebastian
White cane sugar isn't vegan either: Cane sugar is sometimes considered not vegan because conventional refineries use bone char—made from the charred bones of cattle—as a filter to bleach and decolorize the raw cane juice into a bright white finish. While no animal parts remain in the final product, strict vegans avoid it because it relies on animal exploitation during processing
BobRossHB
Seems a rather ethical material seeing as no one is slaughtering for the byproducts, best use all the animal. Just not as feed for other animals of the same sort
BlootLoper
Same as some wine and beer using fish guts (isinglass) to make it clearer.
Kemi337
I work in the cosmetics industry and for brands that want to claim vegan we cannot use white sugar exactly for this reason. It has to be organic cane sugar without the filtration step.
NumptyDumptyLump
Figs are also not vegan. Wasps lay their eggs in them then they die and the babies eat the momma on their way out.
jeke212
Most commercial figs are of a self-pollinating variety, at least in the US, but yep, figs do get pollinated by fig wasps. Additionally, any mama wasp bits leftover after the babies are born get eaten by the fig itself because it is a carnivorous plant!
NumptyDumptyLump
Ooh! That's fucking neato! I didn't know it was carnivorous.
wejustdontknow
Depends on how far you want to go. Technically yeast are tiny animals so bye bread
jeke212
Bye bye ketchup top, because the "natural ingredients" on the ingredients list is usually composed of red-shelled beetles and other insects. Preservatives, baby!
Pluppokopter
That's only in the usa though?
jeke212
I don't know if it's *only* the usa, but it definitely is the USA. It's not that outlandish of a concept though, it wouldn't surprise me if this was the case in many countries. After all, more people in the world eat bugs than don't.
Pluppokopter
Eat bugs yes, but like, usa is really known for having tons of additives and dyes.
davefleming19903
I thought the same thing forever, but alas, the public school system failed me (not sure about you) but I recently learned they are not in fact the microscopic animals I was taught about, and yeast is mostly vegan. *might depend on the type*
isetprettygirlsonfire
I use bone char to remove arsenic from groundwater. It was super cheap during mad cow in the UK
NumptyDumptyLump
That's a wild sentence.
BlindGardener
Not sure I’d want bone char with mad cow prions.
isetprettygirlsonfire
zombiejedediah
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1NmM2cjlmN3VjbGozZnNjdXp4ZXpnN3E1ZXQ5YzdvOGtuOTJib2xiaSZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/3orifiJNGLScA64oRa/200w.webp
WestOfTheM00n
The proteins (prions) are destroyed in the charring process.
TheoreticalString
Why don't they just char people to cure mad cow disease then? Are doctors stupid?
TheJurc
Charring is done at too low a temperature to denature prions, short by 200-300 C. They stopped using the skull and spine to avoid CJD.
isetprettygirlsonfire
The lower temps are for bone char used as fertilizer. Bone char used in processes should be done at higher temps. But yes skull and spines are excluded. I had to get this certified so the state department of environmental protection would allow us to re-inject the treated groundwater or discharge to sewer. We were removing pollution from the soil/groundwater by treating and re-injecting. The arsenic was naturally occuring, but above drinking water standards.
androgenoide
Recent experiments have shown bees to be much smarter than I thought but I doubt that they're smart enough to have been said to have made a well informed decision about these things. They've been domesticated for a long time and they stay so apparently it's good enough.
SarcasticComment
If bees become unhappy with the living conditions or the amount removed, the colony will leave. You have no way of stopping that. The reason bees stay is because humans give them better homes than found in the wild
expectnothingstillletdown
my favorite thing about carnists is when they make arguments that sound exactly like a plantation owner from the antebellum south talking about black people.
SarcasticComment
What? They spent a whole lot of time "stopping that". The entire point was to stop them running away. That's just a nonsensical mischaracterization of how slavery works.
androgenoide
Sounds right, especially with modern hives. (I'm not so sure about medieval skeps.) I just have my doubts about them doing the bee equivalent of spreadsheets to determine ROI.
SarcasticComment
Medieval europe had a huge respect for bees and care for them was the highest priority. When the queen died, it was a royal duty of the queen's bee keeper to inform the bees and it has been this way for centuries
androgenoide
Human relations with bees goes back a long way...long before John the Baptist lived on locusts and honey old school hunter-gatherers hunted wild bees. Honeyguide birds probably took a few generations to develop their relationship with humans.
Scobragon
Bees don't actually "chose" to live in apiaries. Apiaries are designed in a way that the queen will not fit out of her designated area, so she's trapped. It's how your honey doesn't have larva in them, the combs that you change are in an area where the queen can't fit in, to lay the eggs.
Nandortherelentless
https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1anZ2dDVuemZpcHUxNmo4YWd5emN3YWg0a251dnZxenJkemxjYjllZiZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/J8FZIm9VoBU6Q/200w.webp
kleinbotl
Bees can and do abandon both nests and queens if conditions are untenable
revasseur
The Queen Excluder is a grill that's too narrow for the queen to fit through but wide enough for the workers to fit through. This prevents the queen from entering the honey chamber and laying eggs there, but it doesn't stop the queen from leaving the hive because she lives between the Queen Excluder and the front door. She doesn't leave because she's in a nice, thriving hive. If conditions get bad, she'll leave. If conditions are good, she'll lay more queens and then leave with half the workers.
revasseur
Of course you could say that most of the hive's honey is being held captive. "You can leave any time you like, but all the honey worked so hard to make stays here".
Walfas
No, if bees swarm they will gorge themselves on honey and will take a LOT of it with them to survive the journey and setup of a new colony.
EmptyHouseBurglar
I have kept bees. This isn't really true.
avenlanzer
Not true.
lightfoot2
Can the queen exit the hive is the question.
akafluffy
Yes, they can, they just do fairly infrequently because it's dangerous out there, and the queen being in danger is bad for the hive.
lightfoot2
Once again good data and answer. I am getting conflicting answers, will have to check with a local beekeeper.
revasseur
Queens can and do leave the hive. The Queen Excluder grill keeps the queen from getting into the honey chamber but it doesn't stop the queen from leaving the hive. The main reason she doesn't leave is because the hive is a good home. If conditions are bad she'll leave with all the workers and look for a new home. If conditions are good she'll lay a bunch of queen eggs and then leave with half the workers before the new queens hatch.
Scobragon
No, they can't otherwise honeyfarms wouldn't work, since bees don't like nesting so close to eachother, most of the swarms would migrate.
Walfas
This is just patently false, stop spreading misinformation.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
My dad's bees frequently swarmed, as did those of his pals. He had normal hives. Finding a swarm and giving it a new hive happened a few times each season.
Scobragon
Your dad wasn't a big honeyproducer then. Was he a hobbyist?
lightfoot2
Good data and answer. Thank you!
IlCastradore
Beekeeper here; this is disinformation and it would take 3 posts to explain all the wrong shit so just disregard it
FjordFiskursson
This is not generally true.
JayDeeDubs
I personally don't get why honey can be considered vegan but unfertilized chicken eggs can't be. Yes, there are concerns about animal well being, but if you ethically source the eggs, the chickens are laying those whether anybody eats them or not
ScrippyChan
Who cares what can and cannot be designated vegan? "Vegan" is just code for "delusional".
Camelspotting
wut
thedarkdesert
I know plenty of people who are vegan for animal welfare reasons who will make exceptions for some non-vegan foods if they feel the animal it comes from has been treated sufficiently well. E.g. one vegan I know keeps pet chickens, & is happy to eat their eggs because they know those hens are happy & well cared for, but will never purchase any eggs. This makes more sense to me than a blanket ban on all eggs, if the aim is to just do what they can to minimise harm to animals.
GrandmaSlappy
The problem is that there's not really any COMMERCIAL ethical sources for eggs. Eat backyard eggs all you want if the birds are treated well. But any commercial operation is going to cull male chicks and older hens. The chickens are also breed for laying in a way that makes them extremely unhealthy and live uncomfortable, short lives. So make sure it's a healthy heritage breed. But, then, I think it's probably chill.
TheBigBadBonerBiter
Honey is very broadly not considered vegan. It's pretty much only this Twitter & Tumblr post and non-vegans agreeing with it that insinuate otherwise.
urusername2
Well, honey can't be fertilized to make a smol bee!
JayDeeDubs
Neither can those eggs by the time they're laid. They missed the window
urusername2
But they HAD potential that the honey never had.
abcdefg912
That's just eye rolling levels of cope, like pretending fish isn't meat. Of course it's not vegan in any sense of the word.
911vicki2000
You've never seen male chicks thrown into a grinder or suffocated in trash bags? Chickens in tiny cages with wire mesh to stand on never see sunlight? I have
TheJuiceLoosener
I'm not here to debate the definition of vegan, but I think if I kept you away from sex and reproduction for your entire life, you might have an epiphany about ethical sourcing.
SteveTheEgg
Honey, while not vegan, is basically just sugar. Eggs are animal protein. I eat both, and then some, but I do get that eggs are on their way to being meat. i mean the only real difference between egg salad and chicken salad is rooster semen, but you have to add it at the right time or you just get weird tasting egg salad.
redtruck
Cows eat grass to grow and live. Ergo, cows beef is just processed plant matter..vegan.
ImmaCatImmaSexyCat
Exactly. Timing is everything. That's why I just add it to the mayo.
DimwitF
I love this description, thank you :D
cyno01
I find it interesting that Kosher rules are interpreted strictly textually enough about red meat and dairy that chicken salad is still Kosher despite probably going against the spirit of cooking mother and child together.
SteveTheEgg
In fairness, chickens will eat their own eggs if they don't hatch.
KrowWithAK
And sometimes even the ones that do.
Drylegs
Comments that stay with you forever
purgruv
The hardest part about making salad cream is finding the iceberg’s nipple.
Aranon1183
That "right time" bit got me! Lol
RAJrios
"I saw a wino eating grapes. I said "dude, you have to wait.""
VagrantKoba
Well, gee better hope that mushrooms don't evolve
TheFilesAreINSIDETheComputer
But…how do you know that it tastes weird?
RAJrios
Watch battery died :(
queernosaur
The issue is that most eggs you buy at the grocery store are not ethically sourced, and the ones that are, are at least twice as expensive
ForPriestSake
Fun fact, chickens have a compulsive disorder. They can count their eggs and aim to have a set amount. We’ve taken the time to source which chickens produce the most eggs and breed those. If you take some eggs they produce more to get to that number. But if you don’t take the eggs they in fact stop producing eggs.
Ivalicenyan
I thought the rules of vegan were that it's not vegan if the animal/bug doesn't consent, not necessarily the bi-product of the animal/bug itself, regardless if the action is mutually beneficial
jeke212
Re: bees, the instinct is to overproduce honey. In a boxed hive scenario, if the honey is not harvested by humans, the bees will eventually trap themselves and die. If keeping bees is a conservational service, then collecting honey is not only ethical, but it's necessary for the bees' survival, consent or no. Do we consider the animals' consent when taking actions to save their lives?
The ethical aspects of veganism have many gaps if you really start digging into what the rules actually mean.
Ivalicenyan
Bro you dont gotta convince me that the beekeepong action is a good thing, I'm just repeating the argument Ive heard. What is ethical or justified doesn't matter. You could argue the bee keeper adds protection of the hive, helps treat disease, does actions to promote good health of the hive. You can also say that taking excess honey they bees make is also beneficial to bees health. Regardless if bee keeping is a mutually beneficial action, the bees cant give clear consent, so honey isn't vegan.
jeke212
For sure dude! I do think the rulesets on how veganism is defined will probably vary a bit depending on which vegans you ask.
JayDeeDubs
Can any domesticated animal meaningfully consent? I would argue no.
Ivalicenyan
Thos is why some say that human meat is the only possible vegan meat
GrandmaSlappy
That's one school of thought. Mine is just avoid the most harm that you can.
2015Chefj
Let me introduce you to the militant vegans and WHITE SUGAR....
gravaviel
They have a point though.
2015Chefj
Yes, but bone char active charcoal is so far removed from the animal its deemed Kosher. Regardless that its only 1/4 of the total refineries in the US that use it
GrandmaSlappy
You mean the sugar that's processed with bone char?
BigDaddysMeatWagon
As I understand both are not vegan.
Easilyflustered
Fun fact! Vegans who eat honey are often called "Beegans".
SarcasticComment
Honey generally isn't considered vegan. The only people saying that are people living close to vegan but willing to accept minimal harm animal sourced products if the quality of life is good.
Soggybathroomsock
I feel people living strictly vegan are near-holy being for being religiously vegan. Almost like a living relic. Ethereal. It's like meeting an elf or something. They're just better than us eating 6 days / week vegetarian, generally, really.
Asmallpointinspace
Sooooo superior. Really should be revered and all of us should bow down and listen to their sermons of smug superiority. And should feel dirty for every slip up and give up all hope instead of making realistic goals to reduce harm
Asmallpointinspace
Ooh another vegan with a no true Scotsman fallacy. "They don't live up to my standards so they don't count, because I REALLY understand, but they don't." Real care should involve everyone at all levels of harm reduction and gentle encouragement. Not dick measuring contests of how mush of REAL VEGAN you are. Go on and tell me how some society's credo defines the word when it is clearly socially defined much more broadly and such specificity would reduce vegan number by 90% and ignores the goals
Asmallpointinspace
Honestly not a bit different than a TERF. Shameful and destructive to their own cause
Guisso14
I work with a vegan and she doesnt eat anything made from animals or by animals. Which honey is made by animals
TheUglyGuy
I don't care what anyone chooses to eat, but at sometimes the line between "vegan" and "mentally ill" seems a bit vague.
mafiacarstarter
Somehow, the work required by insects to pollinate their crops is blatantly and flagrantly ignored by vegans.
Guisso14
That brings another issue. They dont mind killing bugs, so why care about honey then.
mafiacarstarter
They don't care about animals either.
It's just institutionalized hypocrisy.
Ajierene
The strangest child abuse case I know of is a couple charged with neglect because the young children were malnourished because they wouldn't breast feed because they were vegan so had the infant on a vegan diet... and I'm like but the point of vegans is that the animals cannot consent, that's why no animal products but as a mother, you can TOTALLY consent! It was just so weird but also apparent that the young parents were not educated on proper nutrition
motionDancer
Does that also mean that human meat is vegan, assuming the one being eaten has consented?
wabitgirl
...According to reddit 9 years ago, yes.
I, however, am not a vegan, and am a big fan of cannibalism, so don't take my word for it.
LinkHouseMan
I was going to say insects aren't animals, but a quick search showed they are in fact within Kingdom Animalia (and in fact make up the majority of animals on Earth). I learned something today!
wabitgirl
There are only 6 major kingdoms of life on earth: Plants, protists, eubacteria (aka true bacteria), archea (ancient bacteria), fungi, and animals. If it's not a microbe, plant, or fungus, it's gonna be an animal, even if it seems fuckin weird.
swefur
Without trying to be particularly rude, though probably failing, what did you think they were? Very fast plants?
Markuspsyches
(Not to put words in their mouth) Some people, like my father for example, will say "animal" when they really mean Vertebrates or Mammals. Might even be limited to only land Vertebrates, so fish and bugs fall outside that idea of what an animal is.
I've had arguments when talking about scrap he said we have "Metal", Copper, and Tin. Apparently only Iron/steel are the only "Metal", maybe because they are magnetic?
wabitgirl
I'm sorry, but I'm stealing "What did you think bees were, very fast plants?" to use as an overheard quote in my RPG campaign. Best comment I've seen today.
LinkHouseMan
Nah, you're fine. When I talk about animals, I usually think vertebrates. Obviously plants are in their own kingdom, but your "very fast plants" comment is making me laugh.
SarcasticComment
The split between vegetarians and vegans often comes down to dairy, eggs, geletan, and honey.
BlindGardener
And fish
SarcasticComment
Yup. Never quite got why that wasn't animal flesh. Always felt arbitrary that you can eat that wild caught, but can't fall a local deer.
Feralkyn
Vegetarians definitely cannot eat gelatin. That's from dead pigs/cows, it's their skin, tendons and bone, etc. The difference is that vegetarians don't eat things that require the animal to die; vegans don't eat any animal products at all. There's variants of vegetarian but they won't simply be called "vegetarian."
chewmaca2
There is vegetarian and vegan gelatin fyi.
thekeyofe
I'm a stage-3 vegan. I don't eat anything that casts a shadow.
WhoHim
There it is
lujotu
Excellent Simpsons reference
ChiLLeCheeze
Stage 4 here. Only when you can perceive dimensions can you only let go of the limitations of the human body. Excuse me while I intake the energy of rocks.
thekeyofe
"I guess my body doesn't know it's the Dragon Warrior yet, 'cause I'm gonna need more than just dew...and universe...juice."
IAmTheMandalore
Actually,I believe that's a level 5 vegan. At least according to the gospel of Groening...
thekeyofe
I might be misremembering the quote.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
So, no swallowing or no blowjobs at all?
draginator
That's allowed because veganism is about consent and animals can't consent but people can. If you want to eat your mans load and he's says that's fine then it's totally chill with veganism.
DyspronsiumAddict
Likewise, you swallow your own spit, can breastfeed, can bite your nails, and can wear a lock of your partner's hair as a bracelet (most vegans won't wear wool, as animal hair).
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1amFlbWZ2d2M0bmxkZDd6MHRuZ2UwemVqYXlxY2MzajQ3YXMyZzlzMSZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/UK152WVlHPeRW/200w.webp
Colopty
Getting those protein needs met by means of having insane head game.
SarcasticComment
Exactly. I'd argue that vegan doesn't have wiggle room. Eating eggs or honey makes you selectively vegetarian which many people are. They form their own moral code and eat according to it.
wabitgirl
Weirdly, a major part of the ethos behind veganism in my experience has to do with consent, meaning an animal that can pass the Harkness test can be eaten by a vegan, so long as the animal consents to being eaten... i.e. human flesh that is freely given is technically vegan. TECHNICALLY. Do not try to convince your vegan friends to eat human flesh (or do, but make sure you record it so the rest of us can laugh at the result, please!)
Onisa
Ironically that's where the honey thing comes from. Bees will totally leave if they're not ok with how things are run.
jimicus
Which is fair enough but the rate bee populations are going, beekeepers are going to be a necessity just to get anything pollinated.
At which point, one could argue that anything that depends on bees for pollination is not vegan.
chewmaca2
Same with anything fertilized with manure.
Bubble181
There's a reason many vegans consider avocado and vanilla non vegan.
imakesoap
My husband was a commercial beekeeper (had over 1000 colonies, had pollination contracts, etc). Let me tell you that A LOT of bees get squished in the harvesting of honey, or even just checking on or moving the hives. Bees get squished all of the time for many reasons. Not what a vegan would want, I would think.
SarcasticComment
Curious if he thinks those drip no fuss hives are ligit
imakesoap
He doesn’t have any Flow Hives, but he has helped people with them. They do work, but they are meant for a backyard beekeeper, not for commercial production. Quite expensive as well. And you gotta know what you’re doing (that’s why he has been a bee whisperer to many people with Flow Hives). The honey does not just come pouring out. You’ve got at least 2 years before you will see honey production.
SarcasticComment
Agreed which is why I took issue with calling it vegan. We still aren't leaving them bee (couldn't help myself)
jasondeslin
If someone wants to be vegan because they prefer the diet, I think it's an odd choice, but whatever.
If it's avoiding harming animals, then they are just announcing how monumentally fucking stupid they are.
The amount of death caused by every other part of their lives goes completely unnoticed. Eating from factory farms, out of season fruit, traveling, buying toxic sweatshop shit, while loudly claiming moral superiority.
The hypocrisy is impressive. (Vegetarian is a different story.)
AgamemnonsMemes
The way most grains and vegetables are harvested kill tons of animals.
RAJrios
2/2
I am reminded of a quote, I hope I remember this correctly: "There is no ethical consumption under capitalism."
I didn't vote to have all of the arable land already seized before I was born, or to have all employment and health services require fossil fuels to commute to. We are stuck making the best we can of the system we inherited. There is a perfect episode of The Good Place which sums up this conundrum, but watch the full series. For the record, I'm not a vegan, but I do have empathy.
RAJrios
1/2
Dude, you don't get a choice in this matter. We are born into a capitalist hellscape where we can only ever choose to turn a blind eye to the horrors or accept the lesser of myriad evils. Willingness to pay the premium price (voting with your wallet) for cruelty-free practices where possible does not make one a hypocrite nor a moron. With so few alternatives, it may be the only "moral" option, short of starving to death in an abandoned ditch.
jasondeslin
I'm with you 100%. As long as the animals are treated well, I'm ok with eating them, but I can respect other people that decide to go vegetarian. I'm going to eat them regardless, because they are already dead and this planet is hell for everyone regardless of species, but I do vote with my wallet and ballot to push for better conditions.
But every vegan I've met or heard acts like THEIR choice is somehow avoiding hurting anything and it makes them better, while ignoring the above.
ImmaCatImmaSexyCat
Because the chickens are culled. Male chicks are killed asap, except for a few kept for breeding purposes. Female chickens are killed long before their natural life expectancy once their egg production starts to decline. If they were foraged you could make an argument, but farmed eggs still deliberately kill a LOT of chickens. And those slaughtered chickens are sold for meat, anyway. So it's still contributing to meat production.
JayDeeDubs
Okay, that makes sense from a consistent, ethical perspective. Thanks
explainer
But that is a stretch for eating eggs. The same argument could be said about eating grains. Grains are processed in facilities where aggressive pest control methods are used and insects/redents are purged from the facility.
Eating anything mass produced will contribute to the culling of unwanted animals one way or another.
ImmaCatImmaSexyCat
I don't see how it's a stretch. The chickens aren't killed incidentally. It is literally the mechanism by which the egg industry operates. And the chickens are fed off of grain. So even if you want to say "technically farming crops kills animals," eating eggs doesn't eliminate the bugs killed. If anything, it increases the bugs killed by increasing the amount of crops we need to grow to feed our food. Vegans objectively kill fewer bugs and non-bugs.
Zalm
The mice trying to enjoy the grain aren't killed accidentally either. Nor are any of the insects. In fact unlike the chicken, the animals killed while trying to eat the grain aren't even used. They are disposed of, unlike chicken corpses.
ImmaCatImmaSexyCat
You still have to grow grain to feed chickens. And then we eat the chickens. There's massive energy loss at each level in a food chain. If we didn't eat the chickens/pigs/cows, we could grow fewer crops and feed people just as well. So even if we need to kill mice/insects to grow food, eating meat means that on top of killing the animals we eat, we have to kill even more mice/insects than if we didn't eat meat.
Meat is objectively more wasteful than crops in terms of lives & resources.
explainer
If you have a chicken and it lays an egg there is no cruelty. Yes the whole industry is cruel. But the eating of eggs isn't. If you expand the definition to include the mass production market of anything then you will encounter extermination of animals
ImmaCatImmaSexyCat
Buying and eating the eggs is how that industry continues to exist. That's the cruelty. That's the point. And if you farm chickens, you can treat the chickens humanely and collect eggs in a cruelty-free way. But if you want to maximize egg production, then you'll have to adopt these cruel practices.
You're splitting hairs to argue that under extremely specific circumstances that apply to less than 0.1% of situations, it's fine. But the way vegans choose to live is about the >99.9%.
antikytherion
Cats and dogs need to eat too, I would hope the carcasses of old hens and day old males are put to good use. Gelatine and vitamin B12 and fertilizer are all decent uses too. Nutritional yeast doesn't make B12 on its own and is commonly fed animal byproduct for it to pull the B12 out of.
ImmaCatImmaSexyCat
Not saying they shouldn't. But I doubt most of the meat being used is for pet food.
sitenickname
Where'd you get your info on nutritional yeast? B12 is a soil bacteria. Where do you think animals get it from? Or would if not raised in factory farm conditions (including constant stream of antibiotics to live long enough to be slaughtered) so now they are fed supplements too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutritional_yeast
Anyway, most spent laying hens are so depleted they are gassed and just sent to landfills, often still alive. r>https://www.egg-truth.com/egg-blog/what-happened-in-winnipeg
antikytherion
Animal gut microflora are capable of synthesizing B12, even our own, but it's synthesized in our hindgut past where the foregut can absorb it. Ruminant animals synthesize their B12 earlier in the digestive process than we do. Rabbits eat their poop to reclaim the B12 and we could refine B12 from our own poop too. Chickens get their B12 primarily from insects or whatever other small animals they can get their beaks on.
antikytherion
The assumption that meat animals are kept on antibiotics constantly to keep them alive is false. In sub-theraputic doses antibiotics allow nutrients to cross lipid membranes more easily, it's cheaper to microdose antibiotics than it is to spend the time and feed to attain the same growth.
antikytherion
I can't find where I picked up the factoid about nutritional yeast being fed animal byproduct but not all nutritional yeast is vegan. People are religious about veganism so the people making nonvegan nutritional yeast are incentivized to keep quiet or just lie about their B12 fortification process.
textilelover
My friend keeps the most pampered fucking backyard chickens who have ever chickened. Those eggs are harm free.
ImmaCatImmaSexyCat
That's very possible. I'm speaking more generally. Most people don't personally know the farmer involved, and even fewer of those farmers do what you're describing.
thedarkdesert
Honestly, all the backyard chicken owners I have ever met seem to be in competition with each to have the most pampered chickens known to man. And let me tell you, the competition is TIGHT. If anyone has any ethical concerns about eggs, just get them from a backyard chicken owner. And if you STILL have any doubts, ask the owner if you can meet their chickens. They adore their chickens, and will be thrilled to show you their coop, tell you their names, favourite foods, best friends, quirks, etc.
fabibihabibi
if you have 5 female chicken, where are the 5 males? for each pampered female egg laying chicken, there must have been a soon to be dead male un egg laying chicken.
but it's beside the point: using animals, as pampered as they can be, is not vegan. that is why milk and eggs are not vegan. and honey ought not to be neither although it is not always the case
Sensiblyinteresting
This, isn't correct at all.
fabibihabibi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism
"philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals. "
fabibihabibi
why, please explain.