andotherstories
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May 10, 2022 2:10 PM
andotherstories
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CaptainRuse
Why is the line for the M777 in the middle, making it look half the range of the other, when all the others are pointing to the end point.
terajack2048
Ceaser will not stand for others by him.
nezrael
Poor graph design... but really, it wouldn't be hard to just put a diagonal line there and that would make it much less confusing.
rooik14
Visual design is clearly their passion (I'm guessing it's to make clear who is giving what in the case of Ukraine/keeping the flags apart)
torp
https://youtu.be/pf76pAYyU8U
DavidBrooker
TIL: The Caesar can pass its barrel through its cab if it needs to shrink down to fit on a C-130.
SithElephant
I now want to do a version of this, with 'western artillery' and 'eastern artillery' ranges properly corrected for corrolis forces/
ChickenChickenBurningBright
range is unaffected. Coriolis force would add a lateral drift to the trajectory for North-South firing, and negligible drift for East-West.
blessedarethecheesemakers
Coriolis is not any more important than wind, temperature, altitude, etc even at these extreme ranges. Also, Excalibur negates all of this.
ChickenChickenBurningBright
depends on time of flight; longer in the air, more drift. but yeah, only a concern with ballistic shells.
mostlydrawing
Who made this chart and why do they hate numbers so much?
TheBunnyPants
Obligatory "ours is bigger" comment.
GTimgur
"western artillery" That is some bizarre wording. Just say NATO or whatever it is.
kaiserkevin
'God is on the side with the best artillery' -Napoleon Bonaparte
torp
40 Ukrainians artilery men are training for Caesar system in France as we speak.
PicassoCT
Can't touch this...
PicassoCT
Not in the picture pzh2000 with 25 - 29 miles
BeanTootsAreBest
Arty is good stuff
MinxyJinx
Artillery man here: so America can dump the 777s into Ukraine but they aren’t self propelled and are a losing battle. The Caesar however
MinxyJinx
Many France did give up, has the Ogre projectile. The mechanism is self propelled and the ogre will destroy the artillery and C2 nodes if
MinxyJinx
Used. I do hope France also leant ammunition*
MinxyJinx
Also Russia has further reaching tech. This simple graph is NOT inclusive. Just google Russian artillery distances
steamymcsteam
That’s a huge advantage.
magila
Yuge. Almost unpresidented.
Fransje26
charlie2979
It's great, Russia rocket artillery isn't pictured, still out ranges anything we're giving by quite a distance.
magila
But they can't hit anything smaller than a hospital with it, and they are almost completely out of precision guided weapons.
charlie2979
They're not even close to being out of guided weapons.
OmnipotentBeing
They also supplied the anti air / missle systems. You can't shoot them all down, but it helps.
charlie2979
No ones using anti air on MLRS. It's both pointless and wasteful.
OmnipotentBeing
The Ukrainians claim to have shot down some missiles. They must have something besides anti air, provided by NATO. Could just be dumb luck?
BloodDonor
Ukraine is currently going through training on the M142 HIMARS which has a 300km range for the small rockets for 500km for the BIG one
VincitQuiSeVincit
They're going the distance.
ImmaCatImmaSexyCat
They are on their way.
DarkSock
…secretly stern…
grandestoptimist
God I love Cake, such a fucking effortlessly cool song.
wkearney99
I've got wheels...
drw16
theyre going for speed
Yupurineutah
He's all alone in his time of need.
drw16
because theyre racing, pacing, and triangulating enemy positions
roflipop
They cover their ears while they launch munitions.
OneOfTheEnemiesWithin
He's fighting & biting & riding on his horse,he's going the distance no trophy, no flowers, no flashbulbs, no wine he's haunted by something
ministryofpeace
It's Russia's decline. Bowel shaking earthquakes of propaganda and farce, assail us, impail us with Bronetransportyor force
OmnipotentBeing
...and their tanks still burn.
copperdomebodhi
Huh. Democratic and democratic-socialist countries turn out better defenses than authoritarian ones.
Asteroidrules
Also the M777 and the CAESAR are capable of firing guided projectiles which can be far more precise than Soviet made shells.
confanity
I recently saw this chart in a news article, except it included Russian Smerch launchers with a range of over 40 miles. Why the change?
confanity
Sauce: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/04/30/ukraine-russia-artillery
LooksHeavy
How many seconds is the flight path?
demosteness
All I want to know is when it will end
ISempervirens
?? I can gooo the distance! I'll be there, someday, with a big ass bomb ??
ISempervirens
NPaine
Both Ukrainians and the orcs are using the 2S7 Malka/Pion howitzer which reaches up to 40km (25 miles)
Voiceofdeath
only few problems 203mm shells heavy and system requires 7 persons to operate also to setup and dismantle system need around 15 minutes .
youareagreatguybut
Whoever did the scale for the second chart deserves to be shot.
NonExistingWisper
Hope they get delivered ASAP
DiamondDogLedTasso
Addressed as "To whom it may concern"
hassythegreat
Accurate to 30 ft/9m at 25 mi/40 km
bshodokai
I read that like 90% of the American ones (like 80 or something) are delivered and they have already trained like 300+ to use them
QuiteAmbassador
I've seen videos of the Ukrainian military already fielding the M777
LordExecutorGrumble
Fun fact : caesar artillery have already been delivered but ukrainian artillerymen are curently in france, training.
whyteboar7
Many are already there and soldiers trained. They still need practice to get faster, but they are using them. Putin must die.
nubinMlemMaker
There's been videos on Imgur already of the M777 in use.
ManOfKent1967
Hope the US took into account the Coriolis effect.
Shoutrr
you...you just wanted to throw in the fancy word you heard, don't you ?
toddofla
I’m sure we’ve never heard of that /s
Bytencoder
Fixed..
rtysiiik1
Thank you!
Valaar
For people who thought French and US artillery was there to finish russians job in the distance ^^
RogerAntonio
This didn't fix it to metric units.
ZougasNewFist
America: The M777? that baby can shoot a 3 & 7/19ths Shell at least 7000 cups away, at a rate of 11 & 6/27ths shells per 19th of a hour
apt311
Thank you! Is it so hard to at least have the same scale when making a comparison?
IDontSpeakInternet
It is the same scale? This one is objectively worse.
AStegosaurus
This doesn't fix it. It's just differently bad.
ZougasNewFist
"just differently bad" is my new catchphrase
Ja5per
It is more badless tho
AStegosaurus
No it isn't. It's high effort incompetence.
Erdanya
And the Russians have similarly long ranged materiel, but not deployed. Yet. But sure, try to make it look like they don't like they don't.
AmurTiger
Worse, it is deployed. BM-30 is reported as being used.
DaringSteel
But not guns. To match that range, Russia has to use missiles - which they can’t replace anymore, thanks to the sanctions.
DavidBrooker
Russia's rocket artillery can out-range any tube artillery we can send them. I'm not sure if that's what you meant by missiles, but 1/2
DavidBrooker
in most military contexts 'missile' implies some sort of active guidance. 2/2
DaringSteel
Yeah, you kinda need active guidance to aim rockets/missiles at those ranges with any accuracy.
DavidBrooker
Depends what you mean by "any kind of accuracy". Tube artillery and rocket artillery are routinely used at that range without guidance.
blessedarethecheesemakers
Source? Also, if they do, why aren’t they deployed? Sounds to my like the T-14. They have one half functional demo and that’s it.
charlie2979
No, it's Soviet gear mostly. Smerch, Pion, Uragan all out ranges western artillery. They are being deployed in Ukraine.
blessedarethecheesemakers
Smerch and Uragan are MRLs. Different animals. The Pion does look like it has better range.
charlie2979
MRLS is rocket artillery, it fulfills the exact same role as conventional artillery in Russian doctorine.
charlie2979
Pion is massive, Ukraine has been using it. Not sure about Russia. Know it was being modernised, not sure how far along that is.
TrickyVein
You know what the range of an ICBM is? Yeah, let's not escalate towards that distance.
serenityfast
Russia won't let an ICBM loose beyond Ukraine. That'll immediately invite a response Russia will not win.
DavidBrooker
It's not like these are the only weapons on the field. Both Russia and Ukraine have already deployed cruise missiles with ranges in the 1/n
DavidBrooker
hundreds of kilometers. It's not like the ladder of escalation goes from field artillery to slightly longer range field artillery to the 2/n
DavidBrooker
strategic rocket forces in one go: if anything, field artillery is a de-escalation from the attempted decapitation strikes earlier in 3/n
DavidBrooker
conflict. Artillery is used because it strikes a balance between cost and effect. A high-explosive 155mm shell costs $400 US. If Russian 4/n
DavidBrooker
forces escalate to rockets, cruise missiles, or aircraft-deployed weapons to close the range gap, that's a *victory*, because the 5/n
rumplstltskn
Is a self-propelled howitzer a tank?
haggerton
No, they are indirect fire and have barely any armor.
MuffyTheHamburgerSlayer
Tanks are direct fire, anti-materiel weapons. Self-propelled guns are indirect fire weapons on a tank chassis, lightly armored.
RalphH
they look similar but are not.
blessedarethecheesemakers
No. While built on a tank chassis, they are different animals.
ReginaKasteen
Not technically. They're not usually turreted or very well armored and they aren't typically designed for direct combat.
DavidBrooker
No. Artillery applies fire indirectly - beyond the line of sight, often over the horizon. A tank applies fire directly - within line of 1/n
DavidBrooker
sight. It is possible to use a tank fore indirect fire and a howitzer for direct fire, but these are edge-cases normally seen in acts of 2/n
DavidBrooker
desperation. Self-propelled howitzers may be armored or unarmored, wheeled or tracked. The ones France is providing are based on an 3/n
DavidBrooker
unarmored or lightly armored Renault truck chassis, closely related to Renault's commercial vehicles. 4/4
DavidBrooker
Tanks can only elevate 20 degrees or so. For indirect fire, they need to sit on a ditch or mound.
DavidBrooker
(Apparently export variants of Caesar use a Mercedes truck chassis instead of Renault. Not sure which were donated. )
DavidBrooker
Canada is sending Excalibur 155mm rounds as well (I would assume the US is also, but I haven't seen any news). These are GPS-guided 1/2
Asteroidrules
The French are doing similar, their "ogre" shells are clusters of 63 self-guided anti-tank bomblets.
Jbelkin
Plus all NATO Countries are 155mm so anyone can resupply Ukraine …
seriously9
Finally my tax dollars going to a good cause
override367
so it's a bit unclear if they're getting any of the shiny new Excalibur-S munitions but those things are basically D&D magic missiles
override367
you could shoot a drone out of the air with one if you wanted to
redditmcredditface
we are sending stuff that we are cycling out anyway, which is why the huge budget approval. fuck war.
AllHailTechnoViking
Ukraine is already using their own smart, infrared guided artillery shells. The targets are being designated by drones and then shelled.
stringgoboom
Kind of surprises me we’d send them, given how expensive they are. Wonder if they’re sending PGK as well
DavidBrooker
There's a bit of a dance here. A huge chunk of the cost are fixed costs to keep the production line open. When you see a news article 1/2
DavidBrooker
saying they're $150k per round, they usually don't mention that the marginal cost for adding *one* round to that order is usually under 2/3
DavidBrooker
$50k. They're cheaper than all the shoulder-fired ATGMs over five to ten times the range, with similar destructive potential, if you 3/4
DavidBrooker
look at the *marginal* costs to the donating states. 4/4
AmurTiger
The first paragraph on the wiki about the history of those rounds is a bit sobering.
OmnipotentBeing
Some Soviet tanks formations are gonna get wrecked.
GTimgur
This is the sort of thing that makes me wonder why artillery doesn't seem to get used more often in, say, the Aghan/Iraq wars. If it's that>
rongway
The Canadians used them very successfully in Kandahar against the Taliban in a number of battles.
GTimgur
precise. I guess because most of the fighting is done in urban, civilian dense areas?
DavidBrooker
A cheap artillery round - regular old high explosive shells - only have a CEP (the diameter of the smallest circle in which half of the 1/n
GTimgur
Thanks!
DavidBrooker
rounds fall) of 50-100 meters, depending on a lot of factors. These are $250-$2000 a round. Guided munitions can be much more expensive 2/n
DavidBrooker
even into the six figures per round to get 2-5 meter CEPs. The former is great when you are fighting a conventional military, but when 3/n
DavidBrooker
rounds with inertial backup. At 40km range, they have a first-shot accuracy of about 4 meters, even in GPS-denied spaces. They are 2/3
AllHailTechnoViking
The armored howitzers Germany and the Netherlands are donating can shoot those and are so automated they can time-on-target 6 rounds per gun
DavidBrooker
precise enough that, pairing the M777 with the Excalibur, the USMC was able to target *individuals* at a range of 36 km in Afghanistan. 3/3
Xenominim
Take out the explosive bits and Amazon can start using these babies for even faster deliveries.
TheGhostofElizabethShue
That is bananas.
adammontpetit
Snipers: “hey no faaaair
ErinInStereo
Now that is what I call superior firepower.
MouthyLurker
And they mix very well with switchblade drones which can serve dual duty in initial targeting and fraging anyone you may initially miss.
Werewolfoflondon
So glad to see your explanation ended with individuals. Let’s GOOOOOO!
D7ve
Will switching make it harder for Ukrianians to use drone assisted artillery? Seemed like they were on the cutting edge of something there.
DavidBrooker
Ukraine's laser-guided artillery (which used a drone as a designator) is 152mm (old Soviet standard), so they are incompatible with NATO 1/2
DavidBrooker
standard 155mm howitzers. Their existing 152mm artillery can continue operations as normal, as this is a parallel capability. 2/2
AlmightyThor117
Are those the rocket assisted rounds?
erikna
Usually they are called base bleed not rocket assist
DavidBrooker
They are not, no. Ukraine has also received rocket assisted rounds, and in larger numbers (as they are cheaper), but the Excalibur 1/2
DavidBrooker
uses its guidance fins to glide during the upper portions of its ballistic arc to increase range, rather than rocket assistance. 2/2