ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
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I recently saw this posted while flipping through my feed or whatever the fuck it is, and just had to read this fantastical shit show. About half way through, I started responding to each and every point presented by Mr. BAD EGG, whom, it would appear, is the foremost expert in the F35 JSF. So, ladies and gentlemen, if you would be so kind as to lend me some of your time, I would like to welcome you to the Shit Show!
So here Mr. BAD EGG starts out with some fact legitimate facts, Skydive, Powerglide, and Starscream are, in fact, transformers that turn into the F16, A10, and the F22 respectively. But he fucks up calling the A10 a fighter, which I’ll chalk up to him being over zealous in shitting on my beautiful princess (see Princess Esmat od-Dowleh of Iran)
He continually uses “supposed” like there aren’t 3 production models, one for each branch mentioned, and multiple F35A squadrons that have already replaced their F16Cs with F35As. Calling the F35B VTOL is like calling the B52 a fighter jet, it’s not even close and it was never meant to be; The B model is STOVL (short take off, vertical landing) and has always meant to be STOVL. Apparently, in the age of touchscreens, putting one on a plane is just too much for Mr. BAD EGG.
It would seem he also has an issue with the stealth coating (or low observable as it’s officially called, and from here on will be referred to as LO), making the outrageous claims that not only does it peel right off at >0% humidity, but also must be climate controlled at all times and repainted after every flight, which, on all accounts, is completely false. The LO coating on the F35 is incredible resilient, and very rarely has be to repaired. The claim of climate controlled hangers is, while a really nice sounding fantasy for other Crew Chiefs and myself, just that, a fantasy. Our hangers are far from climate controlled, and on all bases that I’ve been to, from swampy Eglin to the deserts at Luke, sit under open air, cloth over hangs.
The claim of heat sensitive fuel is utter shit, as the F35 uses standard NATO jet fuels, like JP8. So there is no need for crazy special pain on the fuel trucks, they use the same trucks they used on the F16s and probably even F4s that came before.
The STOVL engine in the F35 uses absolutely 0 fuel, and does not need air refueling after a short take off. Instead, the Rolls Royce LiftSystem creates 20,000 lbs of thrust using a simple crank shaft attached the Pratt and Whitney F135 engine that puts out an additional 43,000 lbs of thrust. This output makes the F135 the most powerful fighter jet engine in the world.
There is fuel tanks behind the seat of the pilot, and the only “tank” of oxygen on the F35 is a small Backup Oxygen Supply bottle (BOS bottle for short) next to the seat. The reason is the F35 uses a onboard oxygen generation system, removing the need for oxygen tanks entirely. In the rare occasion that the pilot need to use the BOS bottle (I’ve never seen it happen), he will immediately turn around and land at the nearest friendly runway.
Honestly, that first paragraph doesn’t need correcting, it makes it sound bad ass, and it is! 360° view through your aircraft due to a suite of cameras located around the aircraft. These cameras, along with a imperial fuck ton (imperial because this is an ‘Merican aircraft) of sensors feed the pilot and the plane a constant stream of information.
The software and touchscreen don’t crash. Not even a debate, that shit just doesn’t happen anymore. I’ll admit that it probably did in the early testing stages, like in 200fucking6, but was fixed almost immediately because that would be life threatening to the pilot. Let me reiterate a point from the previous picture, the oxygen generation system doesn’t just “stop working”. The targeting software isn’t really my job, but if that shit bugs or if they Head Mounted Display gets fucked up specs would have a lot more work than they do, because that shit would be disastrous in a real life scenario, which is what we all train for.
Honestly, if that LO melting thing happened, it was way before me, but that shit doesn’t happen now, and there’s rubberized LO on the turkey feathers of the augmenter. Again weather is Mr. BAD EGGs concern, but rest assured, the cameras on the F35 don’t fog up, because they can get hot as fuck when the engine is on.
I have no idea what happened with the whole dogfight situation, but I’m assuming they still had the radar emitters on that the FAA requires us to have in the US. As for the maneuverability issues, fuck, maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, maybe it’s just a shit pilot, maybe it’s the G limits that were a lot tighter back then, fuck if I know, man.
Now, this trillion dollar cost thing I do know something about! This trillion dollars is the estimated cost of development and procurement from the mid 1990s all the way to the early 2070s. That’s almost 80+ years, which makes a trillion seem a little more tame, right?
Again, the dogfight is something to ask a pilot, but the mobility is entirely wrong, he has more than enough room to look around and move his head. That may be due to us being on the 3rd generation of helmet for this aircraft and it is considerably smaller and lighter than previous generations.
So wing drop, that was a problem for a time, but never bad enough to cause a crash. Additionally, the wing drop problem was fixed back in 2013 and is no longer an issue. That’s the thing about development, if shit doesn’t work, they fix it, all the problems this dudes bringing up are developmental shit, and they’re worked out.
I can’t speak for generals, but the F35 isn’t a “top gun [fantasy]” aircraft, if it was they’d be pushing for F22s which is the dedicated air superiority fighter. Additionally, he defeats his own argument by saying that dogfights aren’t going to happen anymore, yet calls the F35 for a single poor performance against an F16.
Now, chopping up A10s is a serious accusation which I have never heard anything of, and can’t find anything about in any legitimate news organization, and as a result, I am labeling unfounded.
I woke up in BEAST MODE! Beast mode is a real thing, the F35 has 11 hard points for mounting up to 18,000 lbs of ordinance, 2,000 more than the A10 and 1,000 more than the F16. 3 of those hard points can be configured to mount external fuel tanks, but is generally deemed unnecessary. So his claim of beast mode being straight up lying are, again, completely unfounded.
Ejection seats are going to cause injuries to everyone, supposedly you actually lose like half an inch each time you eject and they will permanently ground you after 3 ejections. With the new 3rd generation of helmets the 23% chance of death has lowered down to 0% due to its lighter weight.
That brings us to an end, ladies and gentlemen, I hope you’ve enjoyed my Shit Show, good night!
Cat tax, her name is Trixie.
Edit: added credentials https://imgur.com/a/3jTVxzc
Hebii
Wasn't the maneuverability problems due to limitations put on the fly by wire system by the engineers? And fixed after feedback from pilots?
ZuIthar
TehGuard
Need to rewatch this abridged series, way better than the anime
CMWizard
Isn't that right, Jesus?
cloudless9
It’s actually (Hazues) and I don’t know you
greenlandic
It's pronounced "hay-sus" and I don't know you
DarthComet
Here's a pic of me refueling the F-35.
Definitely didn't need any special paint on my tanker for its fuel.
ChalupaBatmanMcArthur
https://www.google.com/amp/s/foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-f-35-cant-run-on-warm-gas-from-a-fuel-truck-that-sa-1668120726/amp
ChalupaBatmanMcArthur
Your gas is cool but a truck on the ground gets hot. Since the F35 uses its fuel as a heat sink, hot fuel means it can’t cool its systems.
Merax75
Most recent red flag appearance the F35 had a 20:1 kill ratio. That is impressive.
gastonlikegaston
Holy shit is there truth to that "losing half an inch on ejection" thing? That's insane
Djkb6718
That's why pilots get 2 ejections and then loose their wings. 3rd ejection could cause a severed spinal cord due to compression.
Gonetogetsomemilk
Also if you eject at the speed of sound it's 99% chance of death.
OhLookBundtCake
Let it be known, that is all ejection seats and not just the F-35.
clayrev
Not necessarily because of the mass of the helmet specific to F35. (he said fixed in gen 2 though)
BengalCat
AMRIV
In the case of an ejection the top priority is to "Get the hell away from this pile of fire, fuel, metal, and ordinance ASAP!"
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
Yeah, it’s like 16-25 Gs straight down on your spine.
imbitteraboutit
Ok the explosion-powered pipe you are flying in is exploding. So we are shooting you out with a large explosion. Happy not exploding. Cheers
OddBrock
Well, they didn’t install that rocket chair for nothing.
SimonlordofSimons
Yes, you are he ejected at like 5,500 psi a sec. this info is unclassified
Macbar
AFAIK this comes from back in the day where ejector seats were just a pile of explosives going off under your arse, today ->
Macbar
they are rocket powered, so the instantaneous force is a lot less but the force is sustained for longer. 0-0 seats changed a lot.
TheSaucyCrumpet
My dad is an inch shorter and has arthritis in his back 20 years after his ejection.
IncompetentRobotElders
Did he get the watch?
lenomdeplume
I ejected from a fighter aircraft...no adverse effects whatsoever as long as your butt and back are in correct posture.
kkidfall
But he’s alive. I think I’d gladly take those to still be alive.
TheSaucyCrumpet
Absolutely, he still complains that Martin Baker robbed him of a good deal of peace and quiet.
kkidfall
Well that landing might have been a little loud...
ghostfacevader
Wiseman1455
Maaan just you wait. The airfield is FULL of acronyms.
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
I tried my best to keep it non flightline personnel friendly
Wiseman1455
You did a great job sir.
Wiseman1455
Former airforce fuel cell mech. Here. I like what you're doing, I had a similar argument with someone who had no knowledge about a/c. 1/3
Wiseman1455
And I told them that each MDS have specific roles they play and are defined by the letter and numbers of the A/C. he or she then sent 2/3
Wiseman1455
A gif saying "my lack of knowledge is disturbing". Anyway you're doing a great job. CC are the unsung heroes of the flight line.
djsdkdjsk
Was he saying HIS knowledge or YOUR knowledge though?
Wiseman1455
Sorry, it was, "I find your lack of knowledge disturbing".
humaneffigy
You got so amped up by a Twitter fight that you had to come recap it on a whole other site?
seanrus16OG
The ironic thing is that, if this guy were to look at the development (and ONLY the early development) of the F-16, he would hate IT too.
dvs2nite
Not true. The F35 is a boondoggle that made a lot of people billionaires. That was true purpose
jursamaj
The problem is, unlike the normal method, F-35 went into production in the middle of development. 1/2
jursamaj
So all those 'finished' units had to go back and be fixed up. Repeatedly. 2/2
jjtallmantx
http://www.f-16.net/g3/f-16-photos/album03/a">/album72">http://www.f-16.net/g3/f-16-photos/album03/album72 http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=23 Dad in both F-15 & F-16 program
PrinceOfSpace
This guy doesnt really know what hes talking about. Jets are developmental arcs, early phantoms were equally disliked
klikklik1236
I like the part where he tries to name drop trump like he came up with the project...
therobisaur
I've seen these monsters do things in the sky that seemingly defy physics. Every aircraft is initially a headache and jets are WORK.
Happyguy47
Isn’t Bono the biggest number two
izoli413365
He used sputnik, a russian government propaganda news site for source(s)? Thats probably his issue.
pabloescobar85
What about Fox news? The lies and propaganda they weave makes Sputnik and RT look like angels. Not a fan boy of any of them btw.
izoli413365
Id consider sputnik and rt worse, but yeah they dont try to hide their bias much.
ThailandExpress
Toderdj
Putin and Donald seem to have more and more in common all the time
parknasty913
https://www.google.com/amp/s/foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-f-35-cant-run-on-warm-gas-from-a-fuel-truck-that-sa-1668120726/amp
izoli413365
As op stated, most of what he talked about were old issues already fixed or that never were issues. In 2014 they already had short term fix
nicouk
Still better than the zero sauces OP provided.
elShiz
It appears he's a crew chief; his source is time on the airframe. I've spent 12yrs crewing jets, his rebuttals are pretty accurate.
ElbowDeepInAPoliceState
Problem is this is the internet, where no one has accountability, and everyone can tell all the lies they want
ocegur
And rt.com! That's Russia Today, another Russian government controlled news agency. He might be right but he lost all credibility.
Notme68
May be Russian propaganda.
Terminology
The RT article links directly to the Official Air Force website with a detailed press release that contradicts OP though...
Octuplecoma
OP said that these issues existed previously, during development, but have been resolved now with new iterations of the plane. 1/2
Octuplecoma
Planes don’t just magically work the first time they put it together, there are probably stories of F-16 failures in development as well 2/2
Terminology
That doesn't change anything about the refuel trucks having to be specially repainted to keep the fuel cooler just for this plane though.
Rifneno
Speaking of Russia, I wonder how it'll handle that totally not overhyped su-57! ... I guess we'll never know, because it GOT FUCKING CANNED.
pabloescobar85
. . . Which is what SHOULD have been done with the F-35. When something becomes too expensive you SHOULD can it!
XenomorphZZ
What, did it really? Is it because the Indians backed out?
Rifneno
Officially, the reason is that the 10 they made are so incredibly awesome that they'll never need more. Yeah, they expect people to buy
Rifneno
that load of shit. It's the MiG 1.44 all over again. People talk shit about the F-35 while Russia keeps making these EPIC failures.
JESTER31
They dropped the T-14 Armata project too.
izoli413365
Mass production plans were cancelled, PAK FA project hasnt been cancelled as of yet as far as I can see.
Rifneno
They might as well be. They're basically saying "yeah, we'll use the 10 we made, but we're not going to make the other 490." They spent 10
Rifneno
billion dollars to make 10 fucking planes. For comparison, we have 200 F-22 Raptors and 300 F-35 Lightning IIs.
nonomos
According to? All info I can find is info that its still ongoing.
prodmerc
"Man, these things are getting expensive. Wish we had an actual economy to fund all this shit..."
DavidDireZebra
And then CNN, as well as a clearly biased random website. The guy is just a tool.
Felman
I get that we hate CNN but to put it on the level of rt is just insulting to journalism. It's like calling wrestlers "real fighters". No.
Wastyvez
Also the "clearly biased" Medium article (which by the way is not a random site) was a copy of a publication released by POGO, an award- 1)
Wastyvez
winning non-profit, non-partisan investigative journalism watchdog organisation. It's easy to discredit information you don't like. 2)
Wastyvez
Putting CNN on the level of russian propaganda outlets is beyond laughable.
DavidDireZebra
Where did I "put it on the same level"?
Lolzorski
AceO235
One is an free press news outlet with it's own opinions another is literally a Russian sponsored propaganda outlet. How shallow are you?
Lolzorski
No they're both propaganda machines of a couple of world superpowers. Though I understand your warped perception having grown up around one.
AndoMaca76
The F35 is one bad ass plane that in many was is better than the F22. It's cost loads and took ages but it's bad ass 1/2
AndoMaca76
People also don't understand that stealth jets don't fly the same way in combat, max rate turns screw your stealth profile. 2/3
AndoMaca76
Pilots are trained to fly flat and not bank sharply. F35 will fire air to air while flying away from you so has no need to turn or bank! 3/3
GadenKerensky
Also, I think the a 1/4 chance of having your necked snapped and a 100% chance of being injured is better than a 100% chance of being pate.
watcher2099
I wont lie, I quit reading half way through, but as a very experienced f-22 maintainer, I enjoyed your commentary on this.
fantasticlight
The planes are really good, they scored crazy high at combat tests last year.
SchrodingerMil
Yo shit is shit compared to mine shitbag! - F15 Crew Cheif
DeckhandAdmiral
You aren’t wrong haha. What a wonderful airframe.
jjtallmantx
Nephew drives the 15-E at SJ
SchrodingerMil
That’s where I work, small world.
jjtallmantx
/a/SfGUAgu You may recognize someone here. They get treated very well.
LyfLesOrdnry
Even after almost 45 years, she's still one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen
GadenKerensky
Wouldn't stealth coating that peeled off with even a stiff breeze that needed to be repainted after every flight be fucking useless? It >
Frederf
Early LO planes (F-117) had goo that filled gaps in access doors that needed to be opened every flight. Very labor intensive.
GadenKerensky
would peel off before it even reached its target, so whilst you can claim some incompetence (factual or otherwise), that's just too absurd.
jjtallmantx
That sound you hear is someone grinding an ax
MaximusUltima
OP - “That’s a nice rant you got there. It’s be a shame if someone.... *BRRRRRRRTTT!*”
awholethingofcandybeans
I see two people grinding an axe. One provided multiple sources, and the other said “nuh uh.”
jjtallmantx
I remember looking inside the new F-16 cockpit. My Dad would point to a “box” and say $32K this one $64K. Planes are like cars, preference.
storebrandproductmascot
Pictures of pretty planes are what we get instead of health care.
jjtallmantx
Nothing is free. Quit holding your hand out or move to Venezuela.
lcranston1930
The development of the f22 10yrs earlier cost about 38 billion. 1/25th of the cost of the f35. Justify that. Defense cos are raping us.
jjtallmantx
Defending you
lcranston1930
Pft. You're a special kind of stupid.
BengalCat
ChalupaBatmanMcArthur
He’s wrong on a lot but the fuel trucks on the ground were a legitimate problem(haven’t heard that it’s been fixed) and the aircraft 1/2
ChalupaBatmanMcArthur
Radar computers were crashing forcing a hard restart while in air (leaving you situationally blind) (this has been fixed though). Sauce: 2/3
ChalupaBatmanMcArthur
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/03/f-35-radar-system-has-bug-that-requires-hard-reboot-in-flight/
ChalupaBatmanMcArthur
https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/555558/luke-afb-changes-refueling-truck-color-mitigates-f-35-shutdowns/
ChalupaBatmanMcArthur
https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-f-35-cant-run-on-warm-gas-from-a-fuel-truck-that-sa-1668120726
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
Are you sure? Med group told me it was tinnitus
TheLordCypher
WHAT
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
I CANT HEAR YOU! Mawp! Okay, say again?
jjtallmantx
If you work around jets..... your fortunate friend
wtfIm
That’s badass that you worked on such a piece of machinery. Do you go to college and if so what major? CS, CE, or EE?
mektel
Crew chiefs are enlisted, extremely unlikely he even has an associates degree (CCAF) unless he's E-6 or above.
therobisaur
To say that a crew chief "works" on an aircraft is such an overstatement.
SchrodingerMil
You mean understatement? I just got off an 11 hour shift fixing shit asshole.
therobisaur
Get real. I've seen you guys "work." Call me when you can't figure it out and I'll come help ya =D
SchrodingerMil
You must be from some shitty heavy base lol
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
Studying to clep through that CCAF right now, lol
mektel
Good luck and don't stop there! Backup plans are always a good idea. After 10 years I couldn't deal with the bullshit any more. That was 1/2
mektel
with 2 years left on the contract. Been out 3 years and have an undergrad and almost a Masters in comp sci. Wayyyy happier.
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
Civilian life and military life both definitely have their pros and cons, but right now I think I’ll take military over civilian for 7 more
joeofthemasks1
While it is nice, I have a bais to the a10 has it has saved many a buddies life including mine
MrJitterfingers
This is what I'm curious, it seems given our current needs an updated A-10 is a better investment, a backup plan is never bad either. 1/
MrJitterfingers
but when it's a 1 trillion over 80 years program, trying to be a "one fits all" solution, that will be outdated in 10 or so - is this smart?
klikklik1236
Everyone does but it's two different aircraft produced for two different purposes. The A10 is worthless without air superiority and we
klikklik1236
Aren't guaranteed that in the future so we need to prepare something that can operate in that environment.
WARLORD
The A10 is like the AK47 of fighter jets. It can take a beating and is still relevant after all these years.
AliBarber
I have a bias towards the A10 because it's fucking badass
OGstonerking
BRRRT
Rifneno
One of the lucky ones, since that piece of shit is the king of friendly fire.
Ferrumkit
The 10 is nice but it's been about 3 decades past due(and as such running out of parts) It's greatest asset was loiter and hopefully that
Ferrumkit
can carry into the 35. The benefit would be a quicker ToT while other hardware maintains longer loiter times like pred drones.
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
I love the A10, absolutely fantastic aircraft, purpose built and rugged as fuck, the F35 can’t replace it truly.
elShiz
No current aircraft can and it was laughable when they tried to retire it, only to back pedal like ya we still need this old yet badass mofo
CC2332
The A10 isn't an aircraft, it's a cannon they mounted wings on. I love it!
CamelSpotter
I know Congress wants a jack-of-all-trades, but I like purpose-built planes. They're just so imaginative and can be devastatingly effective.
MaximusUltima
Specialist planes are definitely superior if you already have the upper hand or the initiative. I like flying tanks.
CamelSpotter
Not to mention, distinct aircraft can gain a sort of notoriety. Willing to bet that the sound of an A-10 alone can send the enemy running.
Ferrumkit
other problem is logistics. imagine if you have 3 cars that can share 90% of their parts. It would make life very easy for inventory.
Madraving
The a10 is a guncraft though, the f35 isn't. So it's not really a replacement as an...alternative.
APFSDS
In large scale war with a major power, the A-10 would be using mostly stand off ordnance like Mavericks. It would also be very limited 2/
APFSDS
...in what it lets the pilot do or know about compared to the F-35. As far as performance is concerned, it’s objectively worse than the 3/
APFSDS
...JSF if you want to do stuff like go to war with China or Russia. It may cost less, but so do prop planes with HVAR slapped on. 4/4
Weentit
the fuck doez that mean? If it targets enemy, it does its job
Madraving
The a10 is a dedicated ground attack plane, the f35 is a multirole strike fighter.
Madraving
I was saying that calling it a direct replacement isn't 100% right, since the a10 is built around its cannon, while the f35 isn't.
APFSDS
The A-10’s gun is fairly useless in modern symmetrical warfare. Mostly something to shoot people that can’t shoot back. 1/
WraithCommander
The intended way to play it is 35s, 22s, and B2s go in first and clear any AA fire in the area, leaving other planes free to do their thing.
APFSDS
That’s really not how SEAD works. Sure, we can wreck the ADN of a 3rd world country, but not of a fellow major nation. 1/
APFSDS
The entire A-10 fleet had an expected life span of 2 weeks against the Soviets decades ago. 2/2
rspeed
The A-10 is such a specialized machine and they're running out of parts. Plus, its cannon was designed for armor, not close air support.
rspeed
An F-35 can arrive on-site much faster than an A-10. Though for the same reason it presumably can't loiter as long.
APFSDS
...T-62. It’s cool and all, but it’s much more useful for CAS than dedicates AT. You’ve got AGM-65s for tank busting. 3/3
APFSDS
...for killing tanks. There’s a great AF issue coloring book that shows how the gun just wasn’t that useful on stuff as old as the... 2/
APFSDS
The cannon was never really much of an anti-tank tool. Cold War era tank armor was already enough to make the cannon kind of useless... 1/
hairytrigga
It also can't take punishment like the A10 can.
rspeed
Does an aircraft need to be able to survive a missile strike if the SAMs can't even target it?
APFSDS
Which the A-10 is definitely pretty good for, but then again, so is the F-15. We’ve all heard the one wing story. 3/3
APFSDS
As far as missile protection goes, that comes down to plane design like, “how much of the plane can be missing for it to still function?” 2/
APFSDS
The A-10’s armor is mostly only good for very light cannon fire and people pointing HMGs at the sky and crossing their fingers. 1/
FrankPerkele
My biggest problem with F-35 is the unit cost, Finland is replacing its F-18s in coming years and F-35 is one possibility and I'm 1/
TheLockheedMartini
F35A costs (right now) about 20% more than an F18 Super Hornet. F35s have decimated such aircraft on exercise. It's worth the cash.
FrankPerkele
Super Hornet is actually one of the planets that is considered as a replacement. And I don't doubt that is worth the money, it's just 1/
FrankPerkele
That if we can buy only 20 of them or so is it really useful? 2/2
TheZoomie
Lololol it has cool capabilities but can’t kill the hoards with 4 missiles
JuxuR
If I understood correctly the operating costs of F35 are way more than any other plane that is considered here in Finland.
JuxuR
So it is not just the initial cost of the plane itself that has to be taken into account.
Rastaquouere
F35 ~ $32k / flight hour. A10 ~ $11.5k / flight hour. Predator Drone ~ $1.5k / flight hour.
davidrzr
How much is a pilot's life worth? F18s are the old generation and won't stand up to Russian new gen either.
JuxuR
http://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-03-28/air-force-risks-losing-third-of-f-35s-if-upkeep-costs-aren-t-cut
JuxuR
They won’t save lives if you can’t keep them flying in sufficient numbers. Imo other fighters offer better overall capabilities for same €.
Loxachi
An F-35 A cost $89 million, F-18 super is about $90, Eurofighter is $120, Rafale is $110. Not to mention the F-35 CPFH is around 26k atm.
FrankPerkele
Wondering how much would it cost to replace them with 35s. Otherwise I guess it's a good plane. 2/2
Ferrumkit
Raw cost is some 100m per unit but if I recall the tag includes replacement parts for the initial life-cycle.
mcquintrix
I think instead of buying 100 F-16s, 20-40 F-35 should do it so in long run its going to be almost equal I guess in long run
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
Lockheed Martin has a weird was of doing it, I’m assuming they want the A model, so they’ll be paying like $110mil ea because they’re 1/?
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
5/5 price will decrease because they’ll be at a higher level of production efficiency until they finally reach their full capacity.
FrankPerkele
Yeah, F-35 isn't the only plane being considered but my fear is that if it is chosen it'll be so expensive that there will be less planes
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
3/? countries got in on it like half way through and have a $100mil price tag, because they put money into dev, but for not as long, like
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
2/? just getting in now, while the US and Australia only have a $90mil price tag because we put money in it from the beginning. The other
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
4/5 the Netherlands, and finally there’s countries like Israel and Finland coming in now with $110mil price tag, but as time increases the
IHopeMyKidsDontSeeThis
The cold war is over, when is the last time an American pilot got into a dog fight with another plane?
schmitty21
That's the same shit generals were saying before Vietnam. So they took the guns off and relied only on missiles. Didn't go so well.
Loxachi
That's not how history went. It's a common misconception. The navy and air force saw atrocious loss rates with the F-4 in the middle of the1
Loxachi
War. The USAF decided to put guns on their AC. USN decided that teaching their pilots Missile employment and tactics was best thus TOPGUN.
Loxachi
Lo and behold by the end of the war the USN had a drastically better kill ratio than their gun armed air force counterparts.
Raltsun
You sure it's over?
elShiz
According to Wiki from 91-03 some decent air to air went down. To include the first F16 air to air kill (MiG-25).
TheHumanCentipanzer
To be fair how long ago was it that Russian jets were flying "accidentally" too close to our coast to test our response times.
TheHumanCentipanzer
https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/21/politics/russian-bombers-tensions-trump/index.html
ConfuMeister
Vietnam War? Also, no dogfights occurred between Soviet and US. It would've went Nuclear pretty fast.
davidrzr
If you hadn't noticed, the cold war is back again.
Loxachi
Um not even a year ago. An F-18 Super Hornet shot down a fighter bomber with a Aim-120
WinstonSmith101
1982 for HM RN in that Argentinian Conflict - and the UK bought the F35 for our shiny new carriers.
Loxachi
Those carriers are fucking beautiful tbh
WinstonSmith101
Absolutely - should have been Nuc powered but, yes, I’m proud of our carriers. About Time We Had CV Capability Again.
ziludoSmasher
We can build trillion dollar war planes while Flint still doesnt have safe drinking water. LOL
davidrzr
Flint also has local and state officials that created that problem. There is a reason why we have different levels of govt.
thebadmanpuntedbaxter
What if I told you, 90% or more of homes in Flint has had safe drinking water for over a year? Google it.
itsabooper
I wasn't aware Flint was having water problems since 1992.
SchrodingerMil
Don’t get me wrong. You have a point, but that is the fault of the state and not the nation.
ReasonableConservative
Fault of one guy, right?
Ferrumkit
Maybe next time the inhabitants of Flint won't vote a city council that cuts corners, drains the treasury, and destroys the city's plumbing.
tangent
They can definitely do both, they just don't care about Flint water enough.
Gatzarlok
You realize it takes just a tiny bit of time to REPLACE AN ENTIRE CITY PLUMBING SYSTEM? I mean sure it's bad it's taken so long, but..
Gatzarlok
Remember it takes like a year just to widen a city street an extra lane or two, that shit ain't easy yo.
Gatzarlok
Also the plane money isn't being pissed away, it's giving jobs, advancing tech, and our knowledge of aviation.
hearthstoneaccount3
I mean... we can do all that focusing on something actually useful like space travel and advancing medical equipment.
Gatzarlok
Then vote for politicians that fight for healthcare and programs like nasa. Honestly though, we do spent far far to much on military.
jgorrmz
As a person who did in fact work on the HUD system, it was a cluster fuck of a program. I can’t speak on the 2nd gen systems, but the 1st
GWilicers
Yo, are you a fellow Rockwell Collins brethren from Portland?
jgorrmz
While I didn’t work for Rockwell, I did work with them on occasion. I was at a company called Maxtek (joint venture between Tektronix and
jgorrmz
Maxim). We were responsible for a large portion of the HUD/HMD electronics. Some design, but mostly the manufacturing and test.
eastbayrae
The 3rd Gen HMD is sick af.
crcinau
Also the F35 was grounded for most of its time in Australia... If the fuel in the aircraft gets too hot, aircraft can't fly.
ElbowDeepInAPoliceState
That sounds like it holds true for all vehicles powered by chemical fuels
SchizophrenicMC
In the F-35's case, fuel is used as a coolant for a number of systems, which get hotter than in other aircraft, between being designed to (1
SchizophrenicMC
have as small a heat signature as possible (poor cooling) and have as high a performance as possible (lots of heat generated). If the fuel (
SchizophrenicMC
is too hot going into the plane, it's an ineffective coolant. Many aircraft use fuel as coolant, but they're less sensitive and generate (3
EmCeeMiNacion
That’s usually how it works with first gen stuff. Hopefully 2nd gen went better.
igooutsidesometimes
Though it usually doesn't take a trillion dollars to get to 2nd gen.
therobisaur
Every single aircraft is a hot mess upon certification and introduction to the fleet.
firstofficercheese
Truth. I flew the E170 when it was first introduced. We called it the 180 because of frequent gate returns. Long ago though. Wonderful now.
therobisaur
F-14s to F-18s. They never fkn shut up about Tomcats. Never. Still wont.
redmanticore2
it is true that if you want economical air-to-air superiority plane for your country´s defensive purposes, f35 is not the optimal choice.
redmanticore2
the new swedish gripen or the new eurofighter typhoon would be better candidates for that, i think.
Flanker305
Or the new Su-35
AllTheEbola
Eurofighter maybe but I think gripen is too small for US purposes. Not enough range.
TheSaucyCrumpet
There is no HUD on the F-35, it uses an HMD instead.
jursamaj
HMD is a kind of HUD, so it's still valid.
ktheman
Lockheed has never had a knack for nomenclature that didn't sound good and HUD always sounded good. It was likely used despite semantics
jgorrmz
This is technically true, as it’s all inside the helmet. Early in the program (2003ish) there was a backup HUD incase the helmet had issues.
jgorrmz
I don’t know if they kept this feature as I left in 2004. One feature I thought was very cool (at the time) was the live feed from cameras
jgorrmz
thats would allow the pilot to “see through” the plane. Where he would look, they system would fill in what was there. So if you looked
jgorrmz
behind you, you didn’t see the seat/cockpit, you saw what was behind the plane. As they were actively cutting down the exterior sensors
jgorrmz
gen systems were AR, not VR. The targeting, radar, and optical systems integration took a huge engineering effort and corners were cut.
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
Yeah, we don’t really get to mess with the helmets much, but the pilots never complain about these gen 3 ones, so I think they figure it out
GameDevSorcery
The guy said the plane has to fly right up next to enemy to hit it .. was reading anything else idiot said necessary? LOL .. it's not WW1...
jgorrmz
I never got to play with a finished installed system. But the initial development systems we sent to the field for testing always came back
Ferrumkit
Well it's better that they get those worked out in testing than live exercise runs. And you know programing, early builds rarely go clean.
jgorrmz
I will say that nearly all of the civilian projects I worked on went much smoother. But they also weren’t nearly as technically difficult.
jgorrmz
with lots of complaints and suggestions. The Automated Test Systems I got to use were very cool. Tested the targeting and tracking features
jgorrmz
the AR overlay, and the camera feeds. By far the coolest thing I have ever worked on. Had to go through background checks for security
jgorrmz
I’m assuming in the newer generations they fixed the issues and “undocumented features” we had early in the program.
ImGrimTheReaper
Any idea what kind of AR? Like projection based or OLED screens?
jcuber
Some version had projectors at the top of the inside of the helmet, which projected to the inner visor (outer being sun shades)
jgorrmz
This is exactly what i worked on. It was a dual projection system onto an inner visor. The outer visor being the sunshade.
ImGrimTheReaper
Neat
imbitteraboutit
So you just gonna talk about classified shit on the open web or what?
jgorrmz
The NDA was only for 10 years after leaving. And I’m not giving technical specs. You can find pretty detailed info online about the system.
jgorrmz
I worked on early development systems. They are not what is currently used in any plane. They were proving grounds for features and fit.
burningitchyrash
I don't think "cluster fuck" is classified.
TheBlueMuppet
No, its pretty much standard procedure.
GhostlyUnknownOctopod
For something in this program area, you're not really supposed to talk about it at all, or mention you worked on it.
YuffieK
Question. In your opinion, isn't it better to have military hardware that's good at doing what it's supposed to do, with minimal frills...
Ferrumkit
The hardware can make some difference while the training will dole out the greatest dividends. The jock mentality hates the support tag.
JamesBastian
It's a trade off, the old saying is "A jack of all trades is a master of none". 1/2
JamesBastian
A specifically designed piece of kit will ALWAYS beat a multi-role pushed into a job, but again it's not bad. It can still work anyhow. 2/2
IsThisPirateTaken
that saying continues with "but oftentimes better than a master of one."
JimJonesKoolAidSurvivor
the ak47. works like a charm. in all conditions and so easy to use a kid can use it
unknownSubscriber
Im sure they said the same thing about the bow and arrow.
davidrzr
It also has horrible range. A great rugged gun, but it has its shortcomings too.
GameDevSorcery
And very high tech compared to a cannon, or bolt rifle
YuffieK
Than something that tries to do everything with the same piece of hardware?
ScrewMyVacationPlansIGuess
If it’s possible to do everything with the same piece of hardware, I’m all for it, as it cuts down on logistics, but it IS difficult to do.
GadenKerensky
I think a nice middleground would be a few multi-role machines instead of lots of dedicated machines or one overextended machine.
spharv21
The F-35 is the new model F-111. Designed to be everything, tons of issues, will likely end up in one specific role it performs well in.
jursamaj
Yup. And since they want to scrap the A-10s *fast*, they'll have to develop *another* new plane to do that job…
Cowfister
I'm sure that the F16 is better in a dogfight and the A10 is better at putting a hurting on armour and ground targets...
Cowfister
But neither is capable at the job of the other. That is the point of compromise. A plane that can perform multiple roles has a place.
jursamaj
So, instead of 2 planes that do their separate jobs well, we'll have 1 plane that sucks at both jobs. Great plan.
Cowfister
No. No. No. It does both jobs well enough. The Warthog and Falcon are two of the best at their jobs.
jursamaj
LOL. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/f-35-vs-10-warthog-face-total-sham-heres-why-25551
Cowfister
You couldn't at least drop me a tldr?
Cowfister
Okay. They did the same thing with the Raptor. Even the Air Force knows that the Eagle can outfly it. IF it can find it.
Nuttsy
I don't wanna dig for sources because the debate is a dumpster fire, but I read mention the losing fight had the F-35s short-leashed.
rationalasshole
It also takes time for the pilots to master the new planes. The F-16 pilots already had been practicing with those for years.
Cowfister
Not a problem. I don't see it as one. The Falcon does have better thrust to weight and turn rate. But!!! The F35 carries more A-A.
Ferrumkit
It's meant to fight BVR, if I recall that test forced it to 'knife-fight' which is counter intuitive to it's design.
Nuttsy
Seems it wasn't even that, just bad habits from different planes and a spot of restrictive control software. Reminds me of Soviets hating-
Ferrumkit
That's why the article was overall inaccurate, the ROE for the test were simply odd and the plane was still coming from 'duckling' stage.
Nuttsy
(I found a decent-looking source) https://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-vs-f-16-15-18-lost-beaten-flatley-comeback-2017-4
Nuttsy
-Spitfires, of all things (well, hate's a strong word), because they got worn out planes that they didn't know how to use and maintain.