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It is inexcusable terrorism, child rape and fraudulent lies, deceit and theft.
Jun 20, 2024 12:14 AM
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It is inexcusable terrorism, child rape and fraudulent lies, deceit and theft.
Kiirdel
"Can people own other people" is just about the easiest moral question to answer (no). The fact that a book claiming moral authority got it wrong in the old and new testament makes me have extreme doubts as to its use as a morality guidebook.
AtlasMorrow
https://action.aclu.org/give/now
Canonmk2
Wait till you read what Judaism has to say about how to treat non jews, or similarly with Islam
PapaJoeNH
The Holy Bible, ladies and gentlemen
conjuratio
*holey...
stumblinforward
There is no greater hate in this world than the love of the Christian church.
vicmango201410
Peter can go fu*k himself. Someone should have enslaved him. Let's see if he follows his own advice.
Chaapai
Religion is poison.
londonosierra2000
That's king James bible, those waky evangelical values
Noob3rts
It is amusing to me that open slavery is wrong to the point that a war was started and we will still rally against it to this day, but modern slavery is hated and despised but nothing is ever done about it.
EternallyIgnorant
Its not amusing, and you arent making some sort of deep point here. Its just hard to build up momentum for positive change when half the population today fly the confederate flag and carry a book around that endorses slavery and wear hats that say Make America Great AGAIN.
Noob3rts
You can be offended and condescending if you wish, but I clearly stated that it was amusing to me so if you do not find it amusing, no problem as you are entitled to your opinion. However, I do not enjoy hypocrisy and I find it amusing when people are outraged at one thing and not the other.
WillemHellfire
I'd rather debate the DLR vs. Sammy Hagar eras of Van Halen.
MarkRavingMad
Yeah, any religion whose holy texts explicitly condone slavery are immediately disqualified as a valid source of moral guidance.
CrispyNougat
No such thing as a good slave master
achim24
cuttysark
You need to be more specific, there are so many spurs caused by the the protestant reformation that it's hard to tell who the players are without a program
turbodog
Nanntuckett
Keep in mind. That’s the New Testament too. Both sides of the Bible reaffirm slavery as ok. “The most moral book in history”
EternallyIgnorant
I like to tell Christians that i or they or anyone could write a more moral book than the bible and i can prove it. Then I tell them i can copy every word identically and then add "dont own slaves" at the end. Can anyone seriously pretend that wouldnt be a more moral book? OF course there is a lot more that could be changed, but this is a simple thought experiment.
JustDriftingAboutTheInterWebs
mckjm2
That's about right, everyone does the work, and religion is right there to steal all the credit.
dashriproc1
I even went on teen missions, struggling to believe. Learned about how power structures are built in college and realized a 1:1 correlation of how the church was built. Dropped Christianity like a hot potato and have been so much happier since. THE GOAL OF ALL ORGANIZED RELIGIONS ARE TO CONSOLIDATE POWER.
AgnosticPaladin
And the goal of disorganized religion is to become organized. Stop making that distinction; simplest reason: they are both *not true*.
kd97pCookieFlyer
The bible, the biggest book of bull shit ever foisted on mankind.
5amNonsense
I've have voted something like Mein Kampf but sure
AgnosticPaladin
Much less influential.
BayazTheBenevolent
Bible has a MUCH higher body count.
qtRaven
We have strayed from the one true religion!
whitefoxkei
Praise be to Haruhi
Hyuckamuck
“Modern” Christianity is an interpretation made by monks that were told to make it so European nobility could say that “God” told them they had to rule the way they did.
doctorwut02
It goes back further than that, all the way to Constantine and the Council of Nicaea.
thetonestarr
Not quite, but modern interpretations have by and large been filtered through such antiquated lines of thinking without taking historical context into consideration.
HogWashDiddler
Exodus 21 is literally a slave owners how-to guide
ickyickywoopwoo
Was your reaction to "Christianity endorses slavery" really "Jews did it first"? Does that somehow improve anything about it? My big book o silly bullshit is terrible but don't mind that, your big book o silly bullshit that's so old it predates books is also bad? Everyone in the world is responsible for their own choices. They always were. And you can tell from contemporaneous writing that some folks always knew slavery was wrong. Sorry, over reaction maybe, I have a pet peeve.
HogWashDiddler
My response is the bible is a hate filled manual from beginning to end. Christians endorse all of it as being a divine text, exodus also contains the ten commandments, in the original jewish text there was over 600 of them. The point is, while the old testament is derived from jewish text it IS a christian text. Your the second person to reply based on the assumption i was talking about jews, and you obviously dont seem to be trying to defend the bible, so why engage in such an obvious strawman?
ickyickywoopwoo
Many Jews are sensitive about the assertion that OUR book is THEIR book. "Old testament" IS Christian, you are correct. But it is not Torah (which it purports to be). There is often erasure of Jews by Christians and people reacting against Christians. Religion is bullshit, but people want to be seen, and to exist. Speaking as an anthropologist and non- religious person, I object to any claim that any group originated a moral good/evil/practice that was universal. Pet peeve ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
HogWashDiddler
All that is true, but that just further reinforces my question. You seem to understand the old testament isnt a jewish text, and i never mentioned jews at all, so why even go there? Also i agree about morality, there is no such thing as objective morality, its all 100% subjective. Name a taboo....cannibalism, rape, murder, whatever....and some where, some when, a group of people have found those things morally acceptable. Morality is what we define it to be.
Comet260
Yep. I KNEW there was going to be a fucking apologist in your replies. I fucking knew it.
dashers
Old Testament is literally a how-to-guide on how to mess up religion
Lethous
Yeah all the justification, like if you ensalve non Christians and bring them to Christianity, than the slavery is worth it because more Christians. Fucked yo logic
Lethous
Fucked up
cronkey
Numbers 5 covers abortion - but that's neither here nor there
woozle
tylerPumpkinTraveler
SaintWanderlust
But didn’t they have to free their slaves every seven years or sumthin?
SaintWanderlust
Not sure why the downvotes. My point was supposed to be that even if “modern” slave practices were justifying themselves because of biblical principles, they missed the part about freeing them on the regular.
stinkyweaselt33ts
Go read the Bible. Study it at a college level and stop making poor arguments. Releasing slaves after 7 years was only for your Jewish slaves, not your heathen slaves, not your sex slaves, and not your spoils of war slaves. The Bible gives you specific instructions on how to trick your Jewish slaves into being slaves for life. Stop pretending like the Bible is a good moral guide. Grow up.
SaintWanderlust
I couldn’t remember exactly the details- thus the initial question mark. Again, though, my point was that using the Bible to justify modern atrocities is problematic at best.
JesaraB
Only in theory, there were exceptions (like if you made her a slave-wife, if you claimed that they said they didn't want to leave, if they were a foreigner, if they were spoils of war, and so on)
EternallyIgnorant
THis was only for other jews who were slaves. This didnt apply to gentiles. This is much like in america there were very few white slaves, especially as you get towards the civil war, and the type of slavery for whites was different. Generally Indentured servitude. but we would say that slavery in america was terrible and immoral for the same reason we say it about slavery in the bible.
LinguisticBitch
The freedom of religion they want.
ImurevJourhein
"In anger, strike down those who hurt you. In hatred, take away everything that gives them hope. In unforgiveness, destroy everything they have left. God damn them to hell, and may they suffer forever."
NewtGinGrinch
1 Peter 2 17 - 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor. Bible teaches to submit to all
NewtGinGrinch
human authority, including emperors, kings, and governors.. which blow a hole in that whole "only God can judge me" shtick.
MerriMod
Also worth noting that this entire portion of the Bible being referenced is Peter's message to faithful living in certain foreign, potentially hostile territories. It's basically telling them "be on your best behavior and don't piss off the people in charge". OP's post explicitly ignores the very next line where it calls out being enslaved as unjust treatment, and urging those suffering to keep faith while enduring their trials as per Jesus' example. It's not saying "slavery is okey dokey!".
BryanTenn
It's also important to note that we have what's left of these writings after leaders had them translated. It's very possible the original Hebrew message admonished slavery and mistreating slaves more clearly. The last thing leaders wanted was a religion that rallied slaves to revolt.
Garn0123
"For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God."
I honestly read that as Peter saying suffering under a harsh master is commendable, not that suffering as a slave in general is. The next verse continues that same thread, referring to 'unjust suffering', then in the next verse talking about receiving beatings for doing wrong, implying it's deserved.
The OT is pretty pro-non-Israelite slavery, isn't it?
Lavvia
Exodus 20:20-21
VaultGirl69
Certain places in northern Africa have some of the oldest churches and refer to Peter. So, this isn't far from reality.
UpwardFacingKnight
You have some interesting views on shit.
dashers
Indeed. And the bit before is stating that by doing good things will show up those who are doing evil. People slate the right wing nutters for selectively misrepresenting the bible, but then do the same as a way to slate it.
Perfectlynormalhumanbieng
It just baffles me that anyone black is Christian and I’m aware that it was forced and through the generations it became common but we are much wiser and free to choose now and how can they choose to follow a religion who hates them.
Zedrapazia
Isn't there some bible story with three brothers and one of them is black so he's naturally stupid and has to carry his brother's shit around?
Really makes me wonder why someone who is black themselves would want to worship that.
GurtX
Except Christianity was in Africa before Europe so there is that and you're a racist.
Perfectlynormalhumanbieng
First of all I’m black and born in Africa and secondly Christianity was brought to us by colonialism you moron.
Zedrapazia
Christianity originated in the Middle East, which is not in Africa.
psychologisttheologist
In fairness, that person's claim was that it was in Africa before Europe, not that it originated in Africa
GurtX
IN!
Perfectlynormalhumanbieng
Sorry zed the comment was meant for the other guy
Zedrapazia
No problem
LookaSquirrelbus
Perfectlynormalhumanbieng
Lol first of all I’m black born and raised in Africa and secondly Christianity was brought to us by colonialism it was never our religion you moron.
wiltsjunk
Lol what
Starfox5
If for 2000 years, god didn't bother telling his followers to add And slavery is banned" to the bible, then god either is evil or non-existant.
SaintWanderlust
It’s pretty well understood that a lot is missing from the Bible- it’s constantly self-referencing books that aren’t included. Who knows what was removed or forgotten by meddling hands in the past?
Starfox5
If the bible is missing stuff, why didn't god correct that? Like a ban of slavery? That "Institution" destroyed countless lives and caused unimaginable misery. Sure, there's the bullshit "freedom of choice" excuse, but... a god that values the freedom to enslave people more than the freedom not to be enslaved is not a good god. Either god is totally fine with the bible condoning slavery or god doesn't exist. So, a Christian is either worshipping an evil god or an imaginary god.
SaintWanderlust
Or God allows for all people, good and bad to make their own choices, even if those mean that his word is corrupted and his children are subjected to trials of all kinds. He doesn’t tend to swoop in with grand gestures often. We need opposition to truly have freedom to choose goodness.
Doompug
If you are able to stop a rapist or murderer, but decide to stand by and let them finish raping and murdering before punishing them for eternity, you are not a loving being. The christian god is either fictional, not all loving or not almight..
Starfox5
A god that values the freedom to rape more than the freedom not to be raped is evil. Would you want a teacher who lets children under their care be beaten and raped while they watch? No? Then why would you want a god who does? I would hope you don't have lower standards for a diety than for a teacher.
SaintWanderlust
Do you expect a paternal kind of diety to control your every choice? You’re a puppet, not a child, learning from mistakes, deciding who you want to be, and ultimately choosing to follow or not follow the guidelines that will allow you to return to that god.
SaintWanderlust
God’s eternal judgements on everyone cannot be considered just if he prevents all wrongdoing from taking place. “But I never did anything bad??” Likewise “I had no choice but to do good” Opposition is required for real agency to even matter and us being free to choose is what God ultimately values. We’re agents, not puppets.
Bytencoder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade Wadda you know, this is an universal thing. Maybe is just people?
AgnosticPaladin
Or maybe you're looking for excuses for a religion that pretends their sky-daddy is all-knowing and all-loving, and the book (that doesn't prohibit slavery) to be it's direct word and the ultimate authority in morals.
Bytencoder
N'ah man, it's just the people that are aholes. Religion has always been just an excuse for all the shit people do in general, and to orhe people in particuar. (Stop wtf you are doing, i am agnostic.)
AgnosticPaladin
I understand what you're doing. The problem is, it sounds a lot like whataboutism used to muddy the waters, and i don't understand *why* you'd do that.
They are the ones pretending to have the final moral authority; they are the ones ready to oppress and kill people in the name of their idiotic superstition. And then, people are pointing out that they don't have any moral authority, and you jump in the conversation with "Well, acthualy...".
Bytencoder
You can blame Christianity for a LOT of things, but as far as slavery is concerned, it does not own exclusive rights (hint: history books)
Doompug
No one has claimed christianity is exclusive in its hypocracy and lies, but that is no excuse. If they claim to follow an eternal all loving god who has laid down an objective moral system, they have to acknowledge that either slavery is good and moral, or their god is at best amoral, and at worst evil. It is essential to make this clear to counter the argument that the bible should be used in legislation.
AgnosticPaladin
No it doesn't. Never said it did. I did say "They are the ones pretending to have the final moral authority", and called out their hypocrisy. And it seems you didn't bother to read.
Again: you sound exactly like republicans crying "whatabout her emails" and wringing their hands, after the convicted felon was shown to have stolen state secrets and deposited them in his crapper.