I was so excited to study astronomy growing up. Stars, planets, galaxies, black holes, and nebulas were endlessly fascinating to me as a kid. Imagine my surprise when I take it as an elective just for funsies... And realize that it's just endless math and physics equations that I was (and still am) too advanced for me
That’s why I never ended up perusing physics. Loved the theoretical, but couldn’t hack the math once I got to AP Physics…should have gone with biology…loved A&P
The only sensible way to learn calculus is while studying Newtonian physics. If studying differential equations or Fourier transforms, be in some optics courses.
I am not a native english speaker, I have read the city name a couple times, but never knew how you'd pronounce it.....and the first time I heard it, it sounded like 'El Bukkake' to me.
Well they must just be truly academically challenged then, period. I failed basic Algebra a few times before finally (barely) passing and swearing I was done with math, period. I did fine up till they put the alphabet in that shit. As such, anything adjacent, involving numbers, was right out, and I've lived happily ever since. Anyone who thinks some other higher math will be better than the prior higher math is well, high.
Except not really. There has been many innovations in math that later was shown to be true in physics. so there seems to be a more close relationship than just a way to describe physics
I would have to relativate that: some innovations in math might have been found to be able to describe things in physics in a better way than previous attempts could. In addition, especially in theoretical physics the border between the two disciplines becomes really blurry as there it is just highlevel models really in the deep weeds. They will reform the language to better fit their needs of describing.
Not just described. its was an unknown attribute found within math. That later experimented to be true in physics as well. You see working with infinities within a specific fields come with results that seemed horrible wrong and not applicable to any real world use. Then in quantum mechanics suddenly these weird results popped.
so it not just " we found something and found a way to describe in math" but a " math show us this to be go in a weird unnatural way. just to be found in nature later"
i played a different game with Wikipedia, click random page, see how quickly you can get to the wiki page for porn usually you can do it in ~8-12 clicks
20+ years ago I was teaching high school physics. The topic involved the use of trig. As I was explaining, one young woman lit up, bright eyed and exclaimed "wow, there's actually a use for this shit", then quickly recoiled when she realized what she blurted out. I grabbed a note card, wrote down her quote, dated it and had her sign it. Hers' was the first of many student quotes posted on the front board.
Luckily my teachers growing up were better at it, but that is absolutely the biggest reason people don't pay attention in math. If you don't show the actual uses for it, it doesn't stick and people aren't interested in learning. Show them how it can save/make them money or it's real world uses, and you'll have more success in educating them. Physics was taught along calc at my school, so you'd learn the math, then go next door to learn how it's applied.
In no way have i ever known of someone that dislikes math to gravitate towards physics
because inherently there's math in that, and not just regular math but the kinda math with all the fancy symbols and shit in equations that stretch across a blackboard or two
"I hate math, so I got into tech, ". This does not compute... (source: failed Chemical Engineer due to too much math that eventually became an Electrical Engineer)
Well, I was into building pcs, a friend who does cybersecurity went “hey man, you should do python about it.” Which sent me down this god awful autistic rabbit hole of programming, and how things work. I was not aware until learning python that I had maths to do.
I was a biochem major many years ago. And a math tutor. Took every required math class in my program. Turned out that was nowhere near what was actually required for some of the physical chemistry/quantum mechanics work. By about two partial differential equations courses.
Felt sorry for my classmates that didn’t have the math skills.
Passed the classes, got a career doing something else, never again needed to do any of that math.
Came here to say this. Didn't mean to be a shitty student and bitch about "we'll never use this". I wanted concrete examples of where the math was used, so I could conceptualize it! Not just... Oh, cool, a curve in space, that's now also rotating in 3D. Ok, but why? CAUSE MATH SHUT UP. Ok. Nobody cared to explain, for instance, that it could be used in, idunno, aerospace engineering or astronomy. Fuck.
Unfortunately many mathematicians don't know practical applications. My calc physics professor was not great at calc. My calc professor didn't know practical applications. We formed a study group just to bridge the two. It was one of the most fascinating things I did in college.
Yeeeeah. This is just my experience from high school. Math wasn't huge in my further studies. My teacher was nice enough, and a veritable math genius. ...But not great at cracking these concepts up, at least not with this kind of a practical perspective.
For some of us. I just wish I had stored the thesis of a colleague (theoretical physics, i was strictly experimental) where he really stressed LaTeX's capability for formula setting - the abbreviated formula at the core of his thesis went across a double page.
Once you realize everything is just made up lines drawn by pattern seeking primates that have no real intrinsic value. Only then can you understand quantum mechanics
This reminds me of a very chilling phrase I've heard, in reference to diving accidents involving pressure differentials (not an exact quote, but how I remember it): 'In that moment, he ceased being biology and started being physics.'
Think of math like a map. A map is not the territory, it’s a tool for navigating it. Similarly, math is a symbolic system humans created to model patterns in the world. The symbols, equations, and methods are inventions. For example, the base-10 number system isn’t universal, it’s cultural. Ancient Mayans used base-20, and computers today “think” in base-2 (binary).
I joke, but actually math used to be considered a liberal art, not science, which is why I was able to get a math degree and s liberal arts degree in four years: SIGNIFICANT overlap in required courses
I was interested in Chemistry in high school but once I realized that it will be just math I abandoned it. Now I apply math to biology and it's arguably the worse choice
The universe doesn't care that we tried to quantize it, which is why our numbers don't always accurately describe it. Math is just an approximation. Then throw in shit like the observer effect and we have a very hard time finding out what things actually are.
Right but scientists poke holes with evidence usually. Mathematicians poke holes with logic or otherwise construct things that they can rigorously prove HAVE no holes
Math is a language, an imperfect one, but a language to describe observations in the universe. Ultimately, math is constrained to an assumption of 'units', even if that unit is an arbitrary integer value. But since its a language we get neat 'puns' like pi.
A much more common line of thought many mathematicians follow is breaking it down to the absolute fundamentals.
And at its absolute, there are no numbers, no letters, not even symbol. There is only a thought. And associative/logical thinking. The first idea becomes the basis for an axiom and everything else builds from there. Including the first symbol, the first operation, the first number, .....much later down the line: the first equation to describe our observable universe
Indeed. I left it implied on purpose, since I already started out with "it's starts with thought". Which is not something I'm just saying here colloquially, it's a direct quote from my math books and math professors at university. And anyone who pays attention actually sees that process happen in one of their lectures, when they start building up an axiomatic framework for mathematics out of nothing.
I heard a description once that Newton isn't renowned for recognizing that an apple falling on his head is gravity, but rather for scaling up
Apple falls, so does dirt which creates a planet/ball which has the same force pulling everything including the moon and in turn falls towards the sun, which all falls towards some other larger body nearby and all the stars follow the same rule of gravitational pull which then affects...
Well pretty much, since a general equation is after all an abstraction from the specific case. Sadly most of the time they are also just crude approximations that we continue to use for sake of simplicity. Anywho, the initial idea on seeing a cause-effect relationship is an accomplishment in itself. And describing it mathematically is another good one. So if nothing else, that's already good enough.
DuncanHillsCoffee4Life
I was so excited to study astronomy growing up. Stars, planets, galaxies, black holes, and nebulas were endlessly fascinating to me as a kid. Imagine my surprise when I take it as an elective just for funsies... And realize that it's just endless math and physics equations that I was (and still am) too advanced for me
BlindMeach
Ah- exit 8
ImmaCatImmaSexyCat
Applied physics is a lot easier for people than math because it's less abstract.
Detoc
ie, engineering.
BaloneyBob
EverNotRelevant
God bless, there's a throwback
Kwyjor
Drive away fast enough, and you crash into Philosophy! https://github.com/s-macke/Abstruse-Goose-Archive/blob/master/comics/511.md
ChicksDigTrucks
NickRivieraMD
oughta be a big ol space between biologists and psychologists.
UWAGAGABLAGABLAGABA
In HS, i took AP physics and ap calculus at the same time. It was nearly the same class.
Spiderbubble
Students afraid of math: exit toward music
Music theory: it’s all math!
NotAGarbageCant
Kids should start with music. It is THE best way to introduce applied mathematics
TheFifthTK
That’s why I never ended up perusing physics. Loved the theoretical, but couldn’t hack the math once I got to AP Physics…should have gone with biology…loved A&P
DiracsDelta
The only sensible way to learn calculus is while studying Newtonian physics. If studying differential equations or Fourier transforms, be in some optics courses.
TungstenOrbital
I'm too stupid to understand either
KilroyLichking
math is just physics unconstrained by precepts of reality, and philosophy's just math sans rigor sense and practicality
RElGNMAN
I took a wrong turn at Albuquerque.
DocNitro
I am not a native english speaker, I have read the city name a couple times, but never knew how you'd pronounce it.....and the first time I heard it, it sounded like 'El Bukkake' to me.
themuffulettaisalsoaverygoodsandwich
If you don't die hurtling off that unsafe curve the physicists built on their exit.
NotAGarbageCant
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1Mmc4M2FsMTRkNmNmMmdkYnk2MHViemVyaDRwOThkYXB6OWU4bGtyaiZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/Tfn2qCnq3JK8g/200w.webp
ChadMaxxington
Brilliant.
echonite
Physics people pulling slingshot maneuvers i see... nice.
MendoncycleSmith
Well they must just be truly academically challenged then, period. I failed basic Algebra a few times before finally (barely) passing and swearing I was done with math, period. I did fine up till they put the alphabet in that shit. As such, anything adjacent, involving numbers, was right out, and I've lived happily ever since. Anyone who thinks some other higher math will be better than the prior higher math is well, high.
KnaveOfSwords
"And math's just physics unconstrained by precepts of reality." — "Every Major's Terrible," Randal Munroe
TripleDane
https://xkcd.com/435/
KilroyLichking
https://youtu.be/seGpYa8UO0E
elten
Math is a language. Physics is just described in that language.
TripleDane
Except not really. There has been many innovations in math that later was shown to be true in physics. so there seems to be a more close relationship than just a way to describe physics
elten
I would have to relativate that: some innovations in math might have been found to be able to describe things in physics in a better way than previous attempts could. In addition, especially in theoretical physics the border between the two disciplines becomes really blurry as there it is just highlevel models really in the deep weeds. They will reform the language to better fit their needs of describing.
TripleDane
Not just described. its was an unknown attribute found within math. That later experimented to be true in physics as well.
You see working with infinities within a specific fields come with results that seemed horrible wrong and not applicable to any real world use.
Then in quantum mechanics suddenly these weird results popped.
so it not just " we found something and found a way to describe in math" but a " math show us this to be go in a weird unnatural way. just to be found in nature later"
ViolinsofAutumn
You mean Randal Munroe, author of XKCD, right?
CheeseIsNaturesFudge
The very same!
KilroyLichking
the wiki page for physics major redirects to engineer
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Getting_to_Philosophy
KilroyLichking
i played a different game with Wikipedia, click random page, see how quickly you can get to the wiki page for porn usually you can do it in ~8-12 clicks
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
what was the search algo? did you pick the link that looked more likely?
KilroyLichking
no algo just clicking away to kill time at a boring ass job
Sothrasil
My professor always said "mathematicians use math, physicists abuse math"
LanceSackless
Funnily enough my dad straight struggled thru math but did fantastic in physics. Dont worry hes confused why thats the case too
AgamemnonsMemes
Everything is math if you look closely enough
SlyMrFox
When my sister went through a baking school, she was shocked that so many of her classmates didn't expect math to be a core tenet.
UsernamesCanOnlyContainLettersAndNumbers
Computer Science too. People think they are going to start programming and the first year is all Algebra, Statistics, Calculus, Physics...
biggyrat53
20+ years ago I was teaching high school physics. The topic involved the use of trig. As I was explaining, one young woman lit up, bright eyed and exclaimed "wow, there's actually a use for this shit", then quickly recoiled when she realized what she blurted out. I grabbed a note card, wrote down her quote, dated it and had her sign it. Hers' was the first of many student quotes posted on the front board.
BarryTheCyborg
Luckily my teachers growing up were better at it, but that is absolutely the biggest reason people don't pay attention in math. If you don't show the actual uses for it, it doesn't stick and people aren't interested in learning. Show them how it can save/make them money or it's real world uses, and you'll have more success in educating them. Physics was taught along calc at my school, so you'd learn the math, then go next door to learn how it's applied.
TheobromineAddict
Calculus is where I began to see important real world applications.
Illinifan88
Who the fuck goes into physics thinking it's a way to get away from math?
TheobromineAddict
You're SO right.
TheJuiceLoosener
Mathematicians
WooWooWooYouKnowIt
I think the better turn off here that unexpectantly leads back to math is geology.
Detoc
Yeah, engineering is the real off-ramp to both, as long as you can stomach a little of each.
warpfactor1
That meme is wrong 🤷♂️
In no way have i ever known of someone that dislikes math to gravitate towards physics
because inherently there's math in that, and not just regular math but the kinda math with all the fancy symbols and shit in equations that stretch across a blackboard or two
ElbowDeepInABlackhole
I hate math, so I got into tech, and programming, and now I hate math for different reasons.
gruntabulousbeans
Floating point error.
Harm
I'd guess for 2 reasons? 0: for everything. 1: and the rest.
Evenmoreuselessname
For 10 reasons
ricpaul
"I hate math, so I got into tech, ". This does not compute... (source: failed Chemical Engineer due to too much math that eventually became an Electrical Engineer)
ElbowDeepInABlackhole
Well, I was into building pcs, a friend who does cybersecurity went “hey man, you should do python about it.” Which sent me down this god awful autistic rabbit hole of programming, and how things work. I was not aware until learning python that I had maths to do.
NotAGarbageCant
Yeah, but programming is actual witchcraft
ElbowDeepInABlackhole
Funky tech wizard witchcrafts.
CMonster556
I was a biochem major many years ago. And a math tutor. Took every required math class in my program. Turned out that was nowhere near what was actually required for some of the physical chemistry/quantum mechanics work. By about two partial differential equations courses.
Felt sorry for my classmates that didn’t have the math skills.
Passed the classes, got a career doing something else, never again needed to do any of that math.
spittleteets
For some of us, physics has the practicality, and literal physicality, pure math doesn't, making it easier to conceptualize.
BitchCake
Came here to say this. Didn't mean to be a shitty student and bitch about "we'll never use this". I wanted concrete examples of where the math was used, so I could conceptualize it! Not just... Oh, cool, a curve in space, that's now also rotating in 3D. Ok, but why? CAUSE MATH SHUT UP. Ok. Nobody cared to explain, for instance, that it could be used in, idunno, aerospace engineering or astronomy. Fuck.
peopleBeforeCorps
Unfortunately many mathematicians don't know practical applications. My calc physics professor was not great at calc. My calc professor didn't know practical applications. We formed a study group just to bridge the two. It was one of the most fascinating things I did in college.
BitchCake
Yeeeeah. This is just my experience from high school. Math wasn't huge in my further studies. My teacher was nice enough, and a veritable math genius. ...But not great at cracking these concepts up, at least not with this kind of a practical perspective.
PackedCatMeowingPowerDensity
Having TRIED to study physics, I am convinced anything connected to magnetism and electricity is witchcraft.
BassilusBone
Magnetism is connected to special relativity, so you are correct, witchcraft.
wejustdontknow
I failed algebra repeatedly. But aced geometry and physics.
stercusmoriturussum
For some of us. I just wish I had stored the thesis of a colleague (theoretical physics, i was strictly experimental) where he really stressed LaTeX's capability for formula setting - the abbreviated formula at the core of his thesis went across a double page.
TheobromineAddict
Good luck conceptualizing quantum mechanics.
EltaninDracoPwc
It's just probabilities
thenetbear
Biology is chemistry. Chemistry is physics. Physics is math. Math is made up.
reineseele
1 + 1 = ∞
AntiProtonBoy
Math is a model of relationships.
WackyWavingInflatableArmFlailingTubman
Once you realize everything is just made up lines drawn by pattern seeking primates that have no real intrinsic value. Only then can you understand quantum mechanics
sushipig
Physics are the rules of this particular universe. Mathematics are the rules for how to write the rules for any universe.
Ultratoxic
GuyPilot
Philosophy is psychology; psychology is neuroscience, neuroscience is physiology, physiology is biology....
HufflePuffPuff
Birds aren’t real.
Trollero
"Mathematics is the purest of the arts, as well as the most misunderstood"
wags18613000
And if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bike
Makerofthingsmasherofstuff
My electrons are waving at you. Hello
TheLordFoxington
Math is applied logic, which is applied philosophy, which is applied bullshit, which is applied political science.
VagrantKoba
Everything human is made up. Names? Made up, numbers? Made up, your love life? Made up.
SirNameless
This reminds me of a very chilling phrase I've heard, in reference to diving accidents involving pressure differentials (not an exact quote, but how I remember it):
'In that moment, he ceased being biology and started being physics.'
BARP
Think of math like a map. A map is not the territory, it’s a tool for navigating it. Similarly, math is a symbolic system humans created to model patterns in the world. The symbols, equations, and methods are inventions. For example, the base-10 number system isn’t universal, it’s cultural. Ancient Mayans used base-20, and computers today “think” in base-2 (binary).
Bubble181
Math is logic, and logic is philosophy.
nomikos
philosophy is ethics and behavioral psychology, which is basically biochemistry...
shitheadtookmyname
Math is applied philosophy
shitheadtookmyname
I joke, but actually math used to be considered a liberal art, not science, which is why I was able to get a math degree and s liberal arts degree in four years: SIGNIFICANT overlap in required courses
elten
Physics is not math, physics is described in the language of math.
Barkinsons
I was interested in Chemistry in high school but once I realized that it will be just math I abandoned it. Now I apply math to biology and it's arguably the worse choice
Isorikk
You fool! That's just chemistry with feelings!
TheMurderousCricket
And France is bacon.
GeneralAnubis
*nods sagely*
ChickenTendercles
Found the English major!
IGetAllMyFactsFromHere
TrumpRapesAndEatsChildren0002
Therefore knowledge is bacon.
raeliena37
Math is the language the universe is written in.
TheOneFreiman
The universe doesn't care that we tried to quantize it, which is why our numbers don't always accurately describe it. Math is just an approximation. Then throw in shit like the observer effect and we have a very hard time finding out what things actually are.
080080
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1M2Vvb2tnb2NjbmNwZ2dtbjVwcHlhaDc2bmV5bWJ1a2ZqMms2NzZxdSZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/hrvZ3g5rHfn1MhhLVt/200w.webp
Level21Magikarp
The mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell.
comeonjointhejoyride
The mitochondria is the powerhouse of the smell.
justmemyselfi
This guy gets it
maybeamonster
Yes, but it's rigorously made up by people whose sole joys are finding impossible to break arguments or poking holes therein.
TheSecondPiewackit
Just got my degree in math. This is frustratingly accurate.
thenetbear
Yep. This was posted on the door of one of those people
ironymus
Poking holes in theories is one of the favourite things scientists do for living
shitheadtookmyname
Right but scientists poke holes with evidence usually. Mathematicians poke holes with logic or otherwise construct things that they can rigorously prove HAVE no holes
AHartMurmur
I thought Math was discovered
comeonjointhejoyride
+k
dreikommavierzehn
As much as language is discovered
TheSecondPiewackit
Just got my bachelors in Math. My opinion is that the vast majority of it is invented.
ma8e
At least when I was a math student some thirty years ago, that seemed to be a minority position among the professors.
TheSecondPiewackit
It was the majority opinion among my professors
dieselfury
Math is a language, an imperfect one, but a language to describe observations in the universe. Ultimately, math is constrained to an assumption of 'units', even if that unit is an arbitrary integer value. But since its a language we get neat 'puns' like pi.
ma8e
Math does so much more than describing things in the physical universe.
dieselfury
Such as
ma8e
Describe things that doesn’t exist in the physical universe.
Exyr
Math is made up to fit the observable universe. It does change.
shitheadtookmyname
No, you are talking about applied math, not math.
dreikommavierzehn
A much more common line of thought many mathematicians follow is breaking it down to the absolute fundamentals.
And at its absolute, there are no numbers, no letters, not even symbol. There is only a thought. And associative/logical thinking.
The first idea becomes the basis for an axiom and everything else builds from there. Including the first symbol, the first operation, the first number, .....much later down the line: the first equation to describe our observable universe
shitheadtookmyname
There's also a lot that doesn't describe the observable universe.
dreikommavierzehn
Indeed. I left it implied on purpose, since I already started out with "it's starts with thought". Which is not something I'm just saying here colloquially, it's a direct quote from my math books and math professors at university.
And anyone who pays attention actually sees that process happen in one of their lectures, when they start building up an axiomatic framework for mathematics out of nothing.
arikelrecords2000
I heard a description once that Newton isn't renowned for recognizing that an apple falling on his head is gravity, but rather for scaling up
Apple falls, so does dirt which creates a planet/ball which has the same force pulling everything including the moon and in turn falls towards the sun, which all falls towards some other larger body nearby and all the stars follow the same rule of gravitational pull which then affects...
And so on
dreikommavierzehn
Well pretty much, since a general equation is after all an abstraction from the specific case. Sadly most of the time they are also just crude approximations that we continue to use for sake of simplicity.
Anywho, the initial idea on seeing a cause-effect relationship is an accomplishment in itself. And describing it mathematically is another good one. So if nothing else, that's already good enough.