petrifiedgoblin1968
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https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/01/us/arizona-phoenix-groundwater-limits-development-climate
Jun 2, 2023 2:57 AM
petrifiedgoblin1968
8464
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https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/01/us/arizona-phoenix-groundwater-limits-development-climate
c137robert
20 years too late
MouseCheese1
Its almost like unregulated abuse of the environment is a bad idea.
gobbin
It's as if nature is trying to tell bone heads who live in a freakin' desert something.
natabus
The falling axe does not care if you believe in it or not.
chrstphrsh
My wife's best friend and her boyfriend are moving to Arizona later this year. I cannot fathom anyone wanting to move *to* the Southwest after all the news about water shortages this year.
tkhcfgyyhv
Maybe start with no more pools
HeywouldJablowme
Maybe growing the most water intensive crops and the fucking desert wasn't such a great idea.
natabus
A truly hard nosed economic answer is... charge for water. Only the things that use it efficiently will be competitive. Use market forces to enforce efficient use. Its the kind of idea that should appeal to right wingers, if the right wing still actually had anything to do with realistic economics.
HeywouldJablowme
Why won't you think of the profits damn you! Let the taxpayers pay for our exploitation of them!
lindabelchersfirstcousin
"Phoenix is a testament to man's ego." -Peggy Hill
Waaaaaaaaaaaagh
it's almost like building in the middle of a desert wasn't the best idea...
CaldariBob
By "groundwater", do they mean the aquifers they sold to the Saudis so they could grow alfalfa livestock feed?
UsernameRequired
This!
qroniq14
Correct!
CorrugatedUrethra1995
They finally revoked their permits after public outcry.
oracle9999
Source? Genuinely curious as someone who used to live there and hated this practice had been going on.
CorrugatedUrethra1995
https://apnews.com/article/arizona-water-permit-revoked-saudi-arabia-9abbb2b85bd4295ebc7c6403d85bf70d Well it turns out they just rescinded a couple of drilling permits. Existing pumps are still running. It's my fault for just reading the headline and assuming the government had stood up to corporate influence to do what's right for actual people. Very stupid of me.
oracle9999
No worries but I appreciate the source! Little steps in the right direction are better than nothing
NZSheeps
And by "Colorado River" do they mean the river where they deliberately over-allocate water takes?
mmmoser35712
They actually allow California farmers to some of their share.
Aaaurelius
120%!
IconicM
Water takes?
NZSheeps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtxew5XUVbQ&t=505s (FF to 5:45)
MacklinBurtMacklinFBI
Comments on that article are wild
CaptainHyperbole
That city should have never been founded!
HamAdvocate
"Besides conserving water and projects recycling water, Arizona elected officials – including Sen. Mark Kelly, a Democrat – have advocated for creating new water supply through desalination, where ocean water is treated to remove the salt." I agree, let's set up desalination plants all along the Arizona coast line.
PoliticalWanderer
Sure is too bad that there isn't this thing called an infrastructure that can allow goods to be moved from one area to another. We all know moving things from Texas or California to Arizona is impossible, which is too bad, since it forces them to rely only upon things which can be found within the state and not anything from anywhere else on Earth.
SithElephant
Well, yes, but actually no. Shipping water ends up unreasonably expensive unless it's solely drinking water or you've reduced usage to the point that it doesn't matter anyway.
CraftyGiant
natabus
Desalination is expensive. If you charge realistic user fees for it, it will make Agriculture with it too costly to be competitive. I fear a system where agriculture gets the free water from the Colorado, while urban and suburban citizens are charged for the expensive stuff.
Rendova
CouldCareLessButDoesnt
It’s a monument to man’s arrogance
Cargobiker530
"‘My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!’
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
OddlyPacific
graehall
This is the best reply to what was a perfect comment
Ultratoxic
The time of fucking about has ended. The time of finding out has begun.
MrSnafleburger
Cant they just continue to ignore Global Warming like the GOP says?
wfx5mwdf8z9
They should require 100% onsite water reuse
prolorus
What? No more swimming pools or golf courses?!!
Isgrimnur
MrSnafleburger
Its amazing what you can flush down the toilet.
Isgrimnur
Chew your food next time
natabus
Dam(n) Cow.
UnoriginalPieceOfRepeatingShit
That bovine looks so content
TantiTRI
yo same
TheFastpaws
Maybe they should stop letting the fucking Saudis grow water intensive crops to be shipped back using our fucking water!
OneUniverse
You can only lie for so long. We sold the same ground water 500 times. Growth was driving force to Phoenix. The limiting factor is water. There is a hundred times less than when it started. That pulling water from the air better work or millions of people are going to have suck air and die.
ponkoponko
Desert air is too dry to get any meaningful amount of water out of it.
natabus
You can, it's just expensive as all hell :) Typical energy use for atmospheric water is 500 to 850 watt-hours of electricity per 1 liter produced. Arizona will be at the high end of that range.
natabus
Oh, source for the above is a good video on atmospheric water production, https://youtu.be/zhgRWFBdqj8
vissago
welp. arizona is over
graehall
What was hilarious was seeing a tweet about this and replies from $8cels saying "this isn't real it's leftist propaganda!" sure dumbass
graehall
And by this they meant climate change, of course
Seggs
is this the same place that sold farmland to saudis for like, 5$/acre and are allowing those farms unlimited water usage?
relsky
Oh no.
edasm
Read Cadillac Desert by Marc Reisner.
autodidacticcortex
Also water knife by paolo bacigalupi
edasm
On it! Thx for the rec.
AllegedOtter
Welp here we go. And so the resource wars begin
CraftyGiant
If they covered all those irrigation canals with solar.... But noooo, that would be "too green" or something.
sakalakamo
Sure it would solve it...
CraftyGiant
not on it's own but it sure AF would help with evaporation loss. It's been done in other places to great success.
cosinewave
Might have been a good strategy about 30 years ago. Too little, too late
heywoodjabme
It’s almost like building a major metropolitan city in the middle of a desert was a bad idea.
thinkybrainpains
get rid oh those lawns and pools, people. Yes. YOU *stares angrily at the rich*
OmnipotentBeing
The next step is going to be more sea water desalination plants along the California coast(There are already 13), and in the sea of Cortez in Mexico. Those plans are already being discussed. Will we abandon the Southwest, one of the most economically productive regions in the country? No way!
TogeEpine
ELI5 what can you produce here that can't be produced somewhere else? Is it cheaper because the infrastructure is already in place and isn't factored in to the cost? Factoring in things like the water crisis, is the day-to-day operations still cheaper than transplanting these businesses elsewhere? If you have the time to explain I'm curious
OmnipotentBeing
California ranks first in the United States for agricultural cash receipts followed by Iowa, Texas, Nebraska and Illinois. California accounts for 46% of the U.S. fruit and nut production and 62% of the national value of fruit and nut crops. You can't just upend all of that infrastructure and farming and move it elsewhere, not overnight. That would take a lot of effort. We can't even get national free healthcare. No way congress would act. The states have to act on their own and find solutions.
Kommadore
Mostly it is about temperature and sun. They can grow incredible crops of almonds, avocados and other high value crops that wouldn't survive somewhere with real winters. Unfortunately because it's arid they have to use a lot of water on these plants.
[deleted]
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OmnipotentBeing
The well isn't dry yet, these measures are being put in place now to prevent that. The hysteria surrounding Arizona's water, is overblown. Prudent planning is needed, and that's what they are doing, while we have a competent governor.
battery1979
Stop growing water intensive crops in deserts.
OmnipotentBeing
I'm not the one doing that. But since you brought it up, think about what that would mean. More food would have to be shipped to the Southwest to feed people. California accounts for 46% of the U.S. fruit and nut production and 62% of the national value of fruit and nut crops. California ranks first in the United States for agricultural cash receipts followed by Iowa, Texas, Nebraska and Illinois. If you want to pay double for your fruit and nuts, and food in general, yes we can stop growing it.
OddlyPacific
Slowing expansion is for the nice laces that people want to be!! /s
CeeSilver
Saudi Arabian alfalfa leases dried it up
xXShadowWarriorXx
I am curious, normally you completely dry alfalfa before bailing it for shipping. if the alfalfa is dried in this manor doesn't the water stay in it's original ecosystem?
Sticklebrickk
Precipitation
2too
A quick google search comes up with around 200 golf courses in the Phoenix area. Also about 33% of the houses have swimming pools.
AnxiaTeaDD
I was gonna say, when I lived there about 10-12 years ago I remember there being ALOT of golf courses in Phoenix, I think also in Scottsdale. I worked as a house cleaner in those areas and another town adjacent to them called Canyon Creek I think? It was Canyon something. I remember they were all very high end ritzy places. Many like mansions practically and they all had really nice pools. I can only imagine how much water and money goes into keeping a hot AF desert green.
Redyls
i live in scottsdale. there are three within a mile of me and eight more within five miles. i have never been to any. i hate how dumb and obnoxious they are. and you are thinking of cave creek
AnxiaTeaDD
Yes, Cave Creek, thank you.
DVSBSTrD
I think this is one instance where swimming pools can be forgiven. But not the golf courses.
ipushbuttons
A quick Google search also shows that Southern California uses several times as much water, mostly from the Colorado River, as ALL 10,000+ golf courses in the entire United States combined, just growing almonds and pistachios. They have 2.1 million acres of commercial almond and pistachio farms.
beeeeeeerkaaaaa
Most of California shouldn't be farm land.
pd8bq
Eliminating both of those drains wouldn’t save as much water as you’d expect. AZ’s problems can be better connected to the almost unrestricted ability for land owners to drill wells and pump unlimited water. New AG is trying to crack down on this. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/in-drought-stricken-arizona-fresh-scrutiny-of-saudi-arabia-owned-farms-water-use
amismenow
Slappydupappy
Pools have literally nothing to do with it. You dont refill the pool once a week. You fill it once EVER then give it *some* water monthly
Hemelsblauw
You don't know people.
omgdrd4bbq
I'll take "I don't understand evaporation for 400" Alex
Californiajackson
I don't live in the desert, the pool was covered when not in use, and still needed topping up weekly.
Slappydupappy
How about not everyone in the goddamn city take a 20min shower every day? How about outlawing grass lawns? Pools.... gimme a break
ElPoloDiablo
Grass lawns are a travesty in general, especially in warm climates. But showers really aren't a huge problem.
minant
Why would showers be a problem? The water is going into the drain, and the drain should be going to somewhere that water can be treated and re-used.
Redyls
75% of our water usage is agricultural for farmland. the most popular methods 90%+ is sprinkler or crop row/flooding which is the most wasteful or least efficient. furthermore we have a use it or loose it policy to encourage waste
Jatok
I was just reading something about a startup trying to fix that by running pipe type things down each row to water plants individually kinda, to minimize water usage. Hopefully its not too expensive
qroniq14
Let’s talk about the land that Az leases to Saudi’s Arabia, they grow alfalfa on it and then send the alfalfa back to Saudi. How much water is being used for that? https://www.kdminer.com/news/arizona-ag-says-she-ll-end-saudi-farming-agreements-along-the-colorado-river/article_8298244a-af39-5e2d-a57c-d2ce9df3ed9e.html
ZitLicker
ironically because Saudi Arabia is even worse when it comes to water sustainability. That country won't survive post oil economy if they stop being able to afford desalination. it could well be the worst non war/disease related catastrophe in history.
autodidacticcortex
No countries will survive the end of the carbon blip. International shipping goes away and all human economies shrink back down to the size of something powered by muscle.
NomadFeetWanderingToes
If we can ride carbon long enough to get renewables going in earnest we'll pull through, but yea economies and populations will need to shrink and more economic activity will be localized. I'm pretty OK with that.
ZitLicker
eh. There are alternatives, but current technology is not close enough to deal post oil world. but I'm not so pessimistic as to think that material technology won't progress. There's plenty of oil reserves left. But the easily exploited, and highly profitable ones, like Saudi Arabia, will run dry far before we get to any kind of global depletion.
Boatsntoes
Humans sailed the oceans to deliver black peppercorns... We can do the same with walmart shipping containers full of plastic crap.
agentpropane
We already have nuclear powered ships?
gesel
hardly, there's plenty of carbon energy for about 200 years and it will not stay in the ground until renewable energy costs less, including CapEx WACC and OpEx, than the elastic limit of fossil, about $0.00_25/kWh today but eventually far higher as it runs out. At present rates this might cross in 50-100 years, which means environmental changes will meaningfully reduce the human burden on resources, including fossil. The equatorial poor will bear the brunt of this. Nature doesn't care, at all.
Boatsntoes
Solar and wind is already cheaper than coal and NG for electricity. This year was the first year that investment in that sector outpaced fossil.
TheDayTheBrainStoodStill
'Environmental changes will meaningfully reduce the human burden on resources' - surely the most dispassionate way I've ever seen of describing the oncoming horror.
Flowerlady0
So, back to the days of beautifully rigged sailing ships? This time, no scurvey.
dieselweezel
swimming pools arn't a good argument for water use. The water they take up it overall drops compared to others in the area. Its also mostly static, once full they need very little to retain that level. Golf courses, large industry, and farming are around 70-80% of the water use in that area. I bet swimming pools are less than .25%
wherethehorriblethingsare
Every pool I've ever seen leaks like a sonofabitch. ESPECIALLY the in-ground ones.
Boatsntoes
Can we agree golf is terrible for the planet? There is one in a pristine marsh near me and I hate all the chemicals they pump into the waterways.
whyisthisusernamealwaystaken
It's the farming and golf courses and people INSISTING on having lawns, honestly. I live here. I own a pool, it came with the house...You're not wrong. They barely need any maintaining for water levels once they're filled, even here and in full sun.
gesel
it is farming. thats all. everything else is noise. For people trying to foment a class war in order to topple the US and expand spheres of control to capture a greater share of global raw materials, fabricating illnumerate outrage at stereotypical scapegoats and exploiting social divisions is, by far, the most cost effective munition in the arsenal; at least one, probably two orders of magnitude better MoE than even biological weapons.
amismenow
Agriculture has gone from accounting for 90% of water use down to 74% so I wouldn’t say that agriculture is the only use but it absolutely is the largest. https://sustainability-innovation.asu.edu/food/news/archive/where-the-water-goes-water-in-arizonan-agriculture/
gesel
fair, and good stat. respect
amismenow