MiffyFin
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Western Uusimaa police are seeking eyewitnesses as they investigate the use of force by security guards at the Iso Omena shopping centre in Espoo.
Police said that a person "became lifeless" after being taken into custody by mall security guards and died despite resuscitation efforts. The incident occurred around 5 pm on Saturday.
Eyewitnesses told the daily Ilta-Sanomat that the woman who had been removed from a clothing store against her will by guards. They said that although the woman was not behaving aggressively, she was pressed to the ground and handcuffed. Four guards were involved in the incident, one of whom lay on top of the woman. A fifth guard watched the situation.
Two passersby attempted to resuscitate the woman. They were later joined by rescue personnel. The efforts went on for 40-50 minutes but were unsuccessful, according to one eyewitness. The body was removed from the mall on a stretcher around 6 pm.
A criminal complaint has been filed, and police are investigating the incident as a case of manslaughter. According to their statement, there is reason to suspect several people of manslaughter.
Source: https://yle.fi/a/74-20011833
JackingMeHoff
She may have suffocated from the dude laying on her.
nufferforeffer
The United States is.....contagious?
BurnieCinders
Positional asphyxia. It's specifically included in Australian security training, don't compress the throat, chest or abdomen.
DrShitwagon
Autopsy ruled out asphyxia but they didn't tell to public what the actual cause was. Just wanted to relief pressure off from the guards
Helixninja333
World: "US, Not again!" US: "I'm over here." World "Sorry, force of habit."
secondtalon
JackSmiles2
It's so sickening each one of them seems to be about 2-3 times bigger than her?
JEMbalaya
I'm so fucking tired of 3,4,5 grown ass adults beating the shit, and in some cases, life out of an individual at the same time. It shouldn't
JEMbalaya
Take more than one trained person *maybe * 2 in worse case to handcuff someone
Dasnekones
This is why it should not be the security guards job to arrest anyone. Leave that to the police
Revicus
John F. Kennedy wasn't "assassinated". He just became lifeless when his body was passed through by a bullet.
albertawings30001
Is "became lifeless" like "died"?
ballsoutflyer
If this happened in america, most people would just be, "Oh well, it is what it is."
allzquiet
If? Do people really not remember George Floyd?
ballsoutflyer
This was done to a white person. We already know what happens when it's done to a black person.
MinotaurPsychologist
Positional asphyxiation and AVOIDING it is stock standard training for security personnel, they 100% need to be held accountable. Negligence
jargonmon
Can't they claim "resisting arrest" and just get a job at another mall? /s
PutinGivingYouANeckMassage
I don't think a security guard has the authority to arrest anyone
makeSX
They have authority to detaine for the police if a crime is suspected.
PutinGivingYouANeckMassage
In Finnland or in your country?
makeSX
In Finland, which is my country
lexxie2288
The thing they should learn is that everyone will fight to survive if hold down on the chest. Its survival mode. Has nothing to do with 1/2
MiffyFin
Some experts on our media said that they can see "resistance" on video and therefore the guards are doing the right thing. Comments 1/2
MiffyFin
then pointed out how anyone WILL resist if you lay on top of them and prevent them from breathing freely. 2/2
lexxie2288
Not wanting to cooperate. No more than two people should to a arrest because of this. The rest should make sure the work area is safe.
usnerd55
It took 4 big manly men to subdue one non-aggressive woman?
aNT7I
Two were escorting here out, and started cuffing procedure on the ground. Two holding her feet to resist kicking. Its safety for both sides.
usnerd55
Yeah, sounds like it worked out beautifully...
aNT7I
Final outcome ofc. unfortunate. Basic techniques used by the guards were lawful, based on eyewitness vids and initial respons by authorities
NaiyaSparkleHero
Jesus Christ
Metadidact
This is bizarre considering the media has spent the last few weeks reporting on guards from another company being arrested for assault.
Metadidact
You'd think these ones would be on their best behavior because of that, but apparently not.
poohft
Yes, this tells us the problem is systematic, not a few bad apples in the bunch or some shit - they have dangerous work routines. Deadly.
Flubbengubben
VMP, yrität kerätä peukutuksia shokkiotsikolla, joka vääristelee. Et todellakaan voi sanoa, että guards killed, koka tätä ei ole todettu.
MiffyFin
Onkos se Omenan vartija kun puhuu?
Flubbengubben
Ei ainakaan kenenkään etukäteen lynkkaaja. Kyllähän se pian selviää mitä tapahtui. Minä en sitä tiedä.
Uranus633
Is that a picture from the incident?
tokenhooker
This is a picture of a woman being murdered by 4 men. Yes.
YoloSwagAttack
Not murdered
likeumreal
You're right. Homicide-ed.
YoloSwagAttack
Still nope
likeumreal
Illegally-unlifed-by-those-4-guys
FinnTrollen
Yes
Hexaprotodon
Nobody knows what happened yet or did the security personnel killed her. Police suspect them but we'll see. There are some videos available.
TeelMoobeel
She was alive before they touched her. Then she was dead after they touched her. Hmm...
Hexaprotodon
By thinking that way, I'd hate to work as a doctor. There will be full investigation of what happened and everyone will be treated fairly.
freckledkink
There is an investigation into what happened when a patient dies. Even if the procedure had a 1/100 survival rate.
tokenhooker
Yeah? Ever heard of 5 doctors suffocating someone to death with their bodies? Shut up.
YoloSwagAttack
She didnt suffocate. This is getting intresting
Jojowmojo
"Became lifeless" sent a sugar coated chill down my spine.
plutonium
The Finnish word "eloton" literally means lifeless but in this context I would translate it as unresponsive.
HeadsAndShouldersPeasAndCorms
Wtf, Finland??
Odincdaj522004
Jumalauta Saatana...
NullPointThrown
Security didn't try to save her, passerby's did. Sounds like straight up murder, no reason to do any of that force to a non-agressive person
BetterAngelsofOurNature
Absent an intent to kill, then manslaughter in most jurisdictions - carelessness is not enough
suiseiseki
Sad to think that if this happened in the US it probably wouldn't even make local news and these guys wouldn't even be investigated.
belongsinamuseum
This would be the top news story in the USA. American justice can be shitty enough without all the exaggerations.
Whynotsharks
A security guard shot and killed a man in a Lowes parking lot here after a confrontation and it def made the news
Ihatedecidingonausername
How do you figure?
VaultGirl69
Because our police kill so many people it rarely makes the news at all. There is an average of a school shooting a week, even. Just normal..
GotBannedOnThe29th
bananafoen
It's not always about you
fudruckers
Shut up.
RaptorDactyl
Found the cop
Neurisko
Or fascist bootlicker who was too cowardly to even be a cop but wants to be one.
TK421isAFK
That's more like it. Most cops have been trained to shut up when personal liability is on the line.
suiseiseki
xoShiseUGA
What the actual fuck? I hope their guilty conscience makes the rest of their life unbearable.
makeSX
Calm down and let the police and justice system do their jobs. As far as we know the woman was harassing/attacking another male customer ->
makeSX
And a bystander called the security to intervene the womans action. The guards have a rigth to detane people for the police if they are ->
makeSX
Suspected of a crime. Othervice they escort the person out. The woman was resisting which is why this escalated.
DarkRedCape
I hope their prison sentence does that.
xoShiseUGA
With guilt your mind is a prison you can never escape. It's there for every second until you are no more.
OliverOtter
What was she doing that four guards were needed to remove her from the store?
baldewok
Probably having a stroke or heart attack or some sort of episode. If it was anything criminal they would have called the cops.
MiffyFin
She tried to return some clothes and got into an argument with the salesperson, who then called the security.
poohft
She refused to leave but verbally only. Eyewitnesses told she didn't do any physical resistance.
deadlywolf04
Kind of a moot point since she’s been murdered.
BetterAngelsofOurNature
Probably not murdered, an unlawful killing in the absence of intent is usually manslaughter
ricpaul
I will gladly admit I was wrong if such evidence comes available, but for now I assume the story is not as B&W as most on here assume.
Thegreenestthumb9
Even if she had just murdered someone in the store, it doesn't it doesn't warrant four men crushing her to death.
duktayp
"became lifeless"
drosophilamelanogaster
Gotta watch you don't trigger anyone. Gotta insulate people from death...
Qaetan
I really, really hope this is a goof in the translation, but given the world we live in I highly doubt it...
kobun253
Fuckkng passive voice ass articles
MilkStoutOnTap
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/an-interactive-guide-to-ambiguous-grammar
Sonicschilidogs
"Her subscription to Being Alive had not been renewed"
ASpookyWhisper
"suddenly unalived"
slandr
Sounds like shes experiencing symptoms sudden Unalive syndrome
TheIronSavior
Cops always use too many words in order to convince you they're not morons. Elon Musk does the same thing
TheMentallyillist
She unexpectedly decided to cease life functions.
DQ1701
Change that line to "became murdered"
cosonfused
they unalived her
potshot
So that's partly because of a translation error. "Become lifeless" is a literal translation but it's more accurately translated to (1)
potshot
non-responsive in this case.(2)
pickinganameistoomuchpressure
"ended up dead due to several bullets' sudden presence in her body"
Santorrr
It's a translation thing. "Mennä elottomaksi" is a proper term in Finnish but does not translate directly to English.
enamelplants
And several logic/analogy pertaining to how the lady died are listed below:
Lovethesmelloftoastedsourdoughbread
Like it just fucking "happened".
Yu8MopWho
JerzeeTomato
Stopped being alive...
IamTOOOLDforThisShite
Not much more disingenuous than the American term "passed". You can "pass away" quietly in your sleep, but violent deaths are not "passing".
HandoB4Javert
PanNonOpticon
It's a quirk if you translate Finnish literally to English. It doesn't mean dead but unconscious lacking vital signs like breathing.
GuestChrist
I like when they say "non responsive"
Groznek
Journalist passive voice is a fucking plague.
bomena
Well this is a bad translation. It means that the person is not breathing but not necessarily dead.
Doompug
Which is what they mean. First non-responsive, and then later died.
notmuchthoughtoreffort
George Carlin would be so proud of all the newspeak and euphemisms we've developed since his day. Well, proud might not be the right word.
peeeopeepeee
"This kills the life"
reverendbonobo
"Achieved an alternate mortality status."
howsplendid
Even worse, most security guards don’t have the legal authority to touch people.
alcaray
Some cultures use needlessly and extravagantly (from my point of view) passive verbs. I don't know enough about Finland to judge.
harmahalla
Seems to be translating error. The writer is surely Finnish, with Finnish and/or Swedish as their main language, and English as foreign one.
Doompug
Yes, "livlös", lit "Lifeless" is a common swedish expression for unresponsive/unconscious human.
BlahBlahTurtle
Unalived
Yu8MopWho
Kitastrophe
That's some American cop level bullshit
cloverleafbane
The use of the passive voice when describing police/military/security actions is a disgrace to journalism.
MilkStoutOnTap
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/an-interactive-guide-to-ambiguous-grammar
cloverleafbane
Thank you. I really like that thesis. I agree that there is nuance. I just think it's sometimes abused to prevent scrutiny of bad actions.
potshot
There are certain guidelines that at least Finnish journalism follows. One of them is to never outright state that someone died at a (1)
potshot
specific time unless it's absolutely, unambiguously clear that there was no margin for them to have survived. Death is medically pretty (2)
SaturnineCult
They're investigating it still, there's no clear cause of death yet.
SaturnineCult
Are you downvoters trying to suggest that this shouldn't be investigated at all or what? Wtf is wrong with you.
Daskiel91
No, the only possible outcome is murder. At least for the downvoters here. While they surely handled her much too harshly, there could be 1/
Daskiel91
Pre existing conditions, so yes, became.lifeless is appropriate until cause of death is confirmed.
reichstein
But it does look a lot like the cause of death was "security guards".
SaturnineCult
Yes, internet judge. We could also leave this matter to actual professionals.
mrthewhitee
"I dont known what happened. One min I was just placing my hands around her neck and then she suddenly became lifeless for no reason"
Dalael
Reminds me of a quote in a book, "He died of natural causes, for a dagger in the heart naturally kills someone."
pancreas
the drow are brutal feckers
Dagordae
The Drizzt series, Homeland.
Dalael
Yup. Not entirely sure if its that book (you're probably right) but its definitely from that serie.
BigDaddyTruckNuts
When you kill someone they die
Housemaster
Arbitrarynamehere
People die when they are killed
Ariltongadottir
Killed to death
3wattbulb
Killed by death
TrilithonStone
When you kill someone UNTIL they die.... they turn into non-life.
mikeatike
"I will kill you until you die from it!" -Sadaam Hussein
reverendbonobo
What if I only kill them a little bit?
ThePunnyGuy
SumDuzzle
No, they become lifeless /s
gearsfan1549
sounds fake but ok
snrsquishy101
Ok Shiro calm down
b0mtombadil
Only if they stop living
Isgrimnur
Caaaaaaarl, that kills people!
ZKintzer
To death
cbjfan
GenXHippie
After totally innocent officers merely deprived her body of oxygen.
SkynetWithAPoopKnife
"She became oxygenless"
CursingAtTheCompiler
In this case not even officers, just some shitty security guards at a mall
GenXHippie
Did I misspell "murderer" again? Yeah, I meant the murderers deprived her of oxygen.....
CerisCinderwolf
Was this wording due to translation from another language or did they describe it exactly that way in their native tongue? Genuinely curious
potshot
"Eloton" translates literally to "lifeless" but would be more accurately translated to "non-responsive".
Doompug
Most likely translation. "Lifeless" = non-responsive, perhaps also stopped breathing, but perhaps revivable. Not medical term.
ropetopus
I’m guessing bad translation; original could mean something like “became nonresponsive”
GuestChrist
There's another handy euphemism.
MiffyFin
The exact wording was "meni elottomaksi"; literally "became lifeless". Original sounds just as bad as the translation.
Santorrr
Direct translations don't work with Finnish
potshot
Yes literally, but medically speaking "eloton" in this case would translate to "non-responsive". It's a medical term that's commonly (1)
potshot
used. "Löydettiin elottomana" is a common way of saying someone was found dead because medically their death is uncertain until proven.(2)
Dagordae
So what do they use for ‘nonresponsive’? Like, is their different terminology used medically?
Asadsadsadclown
Translation issues aside, there are a few medical conditions that could cause sudden death after being pressed like this. She could have
Asadsadsadclown
just dropped dead without warning after the security guards did fatal damage that simply had not killed her yet.
certainlynotaserialkiller
murder. the word you are looking for is murder.
ropetopus
No, murder requires intent to kill. Manslaughter requires negligence leading to death. This is more likely the latter
certainlynotaserialkiller
in my experience people like this cant wait to get their first kill. the intent was made when they became guards/cops
WhoScalesTheScale
Thats not how laws work. Your experience and opinion thankfully doesn't mean squat.
tomatoboy
Finnish law is a little more nuanced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_in_Finnish_law requires intent OR brutality/cruelty OR...
tomatoboy
...endangering public safety OR killing a public servant upholding public safety or because of his lawful duty, OR some combination thereof.
tomatoboy
So in theory, it looks like in Finland, you can commit murder without intent, but it would require some unusual circumstances. Regardless...
tomatoboy
...the brutal and cruel standard is apparently REALLY strict (hitting somebody once with an axe isn't enough) and the factors beside...
upfr0mhere
I would argue intent, there was no need for that level of restraint unless you intended to cause harm
ropetopus
Intent to cause harm and intent to end life aren’t the same thing. Murder usually requires intent to kill
LoquaciousDude
Luckily not a lot of people agree with your analysis - majority of the time when someone restrains another individual it is exactly with >
LoquaciousDude
intent to not have further harm happen. If ones intent is to harm then you don't restrain a person, you attack them.
upfr0mhere
They killed a woman, deadly force is always an attack
LifeIsADanceOfMinds
Cross-training from the US cops?
Santorrr
At least these guys will face justice.
GroundZer0
US isn't the only country with problems m8
casbott
Victorian Police in Oz brought in US police trainers after a big shoot out in the 80's. The "questionable" Police shootings then skyrocketed
belovedlover
Similar problem, lack of training. You can be certified security guard with just 40 hour training or 100 hour training. Not enough.
NoQuestionMarksInDeclarativeSentences
Nope. "Don't dogpile a woman" isn't something that needs to be trained.
belovedlover
That does need training if your IQ is low enough and you don't have any empathy towards fellow human beings.
pollypocketfullofposies
I know two people that used to work for Securitas in America. One is now an asshole cop, the other is just an asshole. It's a "type".
HawkmanXLII
Wanna-be cops. Hopefully soon-to-be inmates.
Saxxon92
"first time?"
kruiik
They are much more trained than US cops. Not joking.
TK421isAFK
No, security guards aren't trained much anywhere in the world.
OnePostCloserToAHappierLIfe
I understand the perspective, given some security guards I've met, but I can't agree with it.
TK421isAFK
Your opinion still does not make the fact that even the most poorly-trained US police receive more training than security guards.
MiffyFin
Finnish security guards have 40 hour training. Advanced training takes 80 hours. That isn't enough, apparently.
Comet260
Maybe no amount training would help because they are just assholes.
aloharamada
Those are security guys, they are barely trained guys in their early twenties. Most of them did mandatory military service and this is an >
LifeIsADanceOfMinds
Great. They have killed someone. It will be good to know of proper consequences to their actions, and the mall's responsibilities.
aloharamada
easy job to make extra cash, mostly you just show up and that's enough to keep people from being stupid. Some of them do get their heads up>
aloharamada
their arses though like some people do once they have any kind of authority over others. But yeah, not cops, they're usually very courteous.
PoodyCZ
Not sure about Finland, but security guards are usually lowest of the low
poopsthatgoberloop
Including the ones that talk people out of late night suicide attempts?
ramblercomet5772
"I resemble that remark." - Paul Blart
Kehy
Dude, wtf? Several members of my family have spent some time as security guards. It's been a good stepping up point and offered careers
chewbaccabear
Let's normalize not generalizing people in professions. A person isn't their job.
Iputthebestinbestiality
I worked as a security guard doing inspections in municipal housing (this eplaces are _bad_), student housing, hotels (fire regulations) and
Iputthebestinbestiality
parking garages. I've been spat at, threatened with knives ad god knows what else. Not ONCE have I laid a finger on anyone. I even had a
Iputthebestinbestiality
extra thermos with coffee for the homeless addicts I had to escort out of the garages. So... Fuck you, and your fucking attitude.
Barkinsons
Them and bouncers often can't become cops for one reason or the other, they are only meant to create a sense of security and call cops
Lleonharte
anyone who seeks power over others are pigs
YukiCruentus
Fun part? As a security officer we were trained not to engage. Call the cops and keep out of it. Less paperwork and injuries that way.
YukiCruentus
And personally, I wasn't paid enough to care. 9$/hr ain't enough for me to do more than the first responder side of my job.
spookyactionatadistance
Definition of: I spend so much time online that I lost the ability to see nuances. Everything is black and white.
apostlepk
All the ones I know just drive around in whatever they get to drive around in and smoke pot
Ihatedecidingonausername
Paul Blart takes his job seriously!
Thesaya
Definitely.
admeaz0123
My ex is a security guard now. Lowest of the low is quite accurate.
CandiPositivityShaper
That is universally true.
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Giantmutantcrab
You might be an exception. Just as there might be one good cop somewhere.
bugcooper
they dont really know, they just follow bullshit narratives
LivingDecomposition
I used to be one, too. Worked a bunch of different sites on contracts, never had a serious problem. Sucks being hated on for just showing up
jimicus
Because so many people have negative experience with security guarsd.
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[deleted]
kaarbaakimgr
Do you understand where generalizations come from?
[deleted]
[deleted]
UseTheSource
"usually" is such a dangerous one. Well you already get a lot of flack from others, but I understand your remark: (1/)
UseTheSource
I've worked with quite some security guards, and my experience is mixed.
UseTheSource
when a security guard is good, you rarely notice them. Bad guards can be: lazy, or not noticing dangers, or what you notice: hostile
UseTheSource
in my work, I mostly noticed lazy or incompetent guards, or those who didn't know conflict resolution.
OrificeAndEurydice
Belgian chief inspector told me they have to hire more and more ‘unsuitable’ people as there are no proper candidates. Should expect US ->
OrificeAndEurydice
Situations maybe in the future ☹️
theincrediblebullshittingman
You get what you pay for.
CaldariBob
Lower than lawyers?!
freehugsforeveryone
Maybe both are on the same level
sirfanciesadrought
Lower than real estate agents?
drunkdeadlock
Becoming a lawyer requires some education
Karlsson95
You you have to study to be even more of an asshole than a regular asshole?
SaturnineCult
Usual joke is that they are too dumb to be police, so they end up as security.
PoodyCZ
Over here they're straight up ex convicts, homeless people...
grisen072
The education to become a police officer is a 3 year long bachelor in finland though. It actually requires some dedication.
equia
And also applicants must undergo psychological screening before admittance.
ChristopherHallett
It's not a joke, it's fact. The bullies who want to be cops but are too dumb even for that become security guards.
kilgoth1
Ghlargh
It's a common belief that a large percentage of security guards were rejected from police training because of violent tendencies.
usernamephobia420
Why is this downvoted? My German friend told me exactly the same today. I assume you are a Czech
Ghlargh
Swedish. I believe it's gotten a bit better but some security guards are still a bit too keen on being pushy and violent here.
Iputthebestinbestiality
There's a lot of common beliefs that aren't true though. Only one of my former colleagues wanted to be a cop (and he got into the college).
Iputthebestinbestiality
I was there because it gave me a part time job where I could work long hours (and full time in holidays). The pay was fairly decent, and the
Iputthebestinbestiality
places I went to needed someone level headed. As a security guard (in Norway at least), you can't use physical force unless it's to prevent
shyasen
Based on what I've seen over the last 50 years I'm curious what qualifies as "too violent" cuz I've seen some very violent stuff just slide.
theincrediblebullshittingman
A Finnish security guard can very well be better trained than a police officer in other countries.
DangerTrain
That's a pretty low bar to clear.
SBartlett
Apparently not
Halfdiver
Minimum training is 120h, which clearly is not enough. There is also an ongoing investigation on another security company about assaults.
Noxnarie
But without earlie police academy and/or been recently in army, it is actually hard to even get that training. Or atleast used to be.
PrincessWasabi
Clearly
theincrediblebullshittingman
1) There are thousands of security guards in Finland. In the pic there are five. 2) There's no evidence (yet) these five did anything wrong.
TheRockDude
Oh, so laying on top of a non-aggressive woman is standard procedure in Finland?
theincrediblebullshittingman
It's still in investigation. She was opposing and they were restraining her limbs. There aren't any different rules for men and women.