johnsonjoeb
131504
1788
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Oct 12, 2021 5:31 PM
johnsonjoeb
131504
1788
129
Behlon
Why blank the poster's name on their post, but in the reply to their post?
MikeReese9
It’s similar to what I heard during the Civil Rights era: ‘You think we treat you bad, let the commies get here!’ Yeah, that’s cool.
buttplugconsumer
Why cover the person's name in red if you're still going to show it in the reply? Wouldn't it be easier to show their ignorance up front?
WarriorFox
Is nobody gonna mention how they tried to censor OP's name but left it clear in the response?
WTFantastico
Imagine justifying evil with "Hey, it was gonna happen anyways, it's just the natural order of things."
hellsgunslinger
I mean, someone probably would have yes but that doesn't mean we should teach it how we do now or pretend it was all fine and dandy
reddenbocker
I 'like' (used sarcastically) how many people are replying with 'that's just how people were' instead of 'that's just how people ARE'.
eruditic
yea. this is what Aliens will do to us. Same rationale, but it will be: 'Marklar the Marklars before they get Marklared"
Itouchedaseakrait
It’s a terrible justification, but ALL peoples throughout history have used it. To just focus on white people is cherry picking the data
malachilenomade
What's the point of scratching out the first name when you're just going to include it in the response?
ressos
Wait but it's not totally wrong...imagine the chinese, the ottomans, or the Japanese arriving first...
tygerpsimatrix
Why 'blur' the username and leave it in the response?
dragoMarbleGamer
To go short: humans are garbage.
CoarseAndSalty
"Look, you're going to die inevitably, my raping you to death is just a formality." energy
enotrevo
"If I don't steal your house somebody else will." - Yacoub of Brooklyn
DamascusFire
I mean the Spanish would have for sure. Not that it's justification for either mind you
CharCharBeast
Uh.... and DID? Acoma ring any bells?
zHurk777
Spain is in Europe.
LootenetDan
I mean, Spaniards are white Europeans so... Point still stands.
EverNotRelevant
The Spanish *did*.
Deletingmypastandfuture
thank you! the Had built entire cities in America before the english built any wooden forts.
cyrilzeta
They were in an arms race with the Portuguese, the French, and the British. And the Dutch. A fuckery contest if sorts
Insomnia297
Around that time, a lot of american civilizations started suddenly disappearing. Weird coincidence.
EverNotRelevant
Left a whole lot of people out of sorts.
EmotionallyMagnificient
Stronger nation brutalized and destroyed weaker nations. Shockingly routine.
motoalchemist
"discovered the wheel" thats hilarious
BlindGardener
The natives had wheels though. The wheel was an invention they had and used.
RezzyCat
Lmao. “InDiGiNoUs PeOpLe HaD nOt YeT dIsCoVeReD tHe WhEeL”
NotACanadian
I love how people still go around thinking like reality is just a game of Sid Meier's Civilization.
ahernandez
How does she think they built the Incan pyramids without the wheel?
APointlessBee
I worked with a guy like this. He unironically said "Slavery's unpopular, but we accelerated their (blacks and Africans) technology so fast!
APointlessBee
I didn't bother asking if that "acceleration" coincided with the industrial revolution as he was too busy showing me racist crime stats.
APointlessBee
And no, he doesn't work there anymore (not because of this, but because he would skip work despite ranting that liberals wanted free money)
Raoin
The part dipshut missed, is that the Americas where so fertile and lush, they never had a need to invent shit really. It was like living in
sal0qwerty
They invented plenty had agriculture metal and glass working advanced waterways and building practices astronomy and commerce systems
EVLWNS
Yeah, this dude is ignorant as hell.
Raoin
A grocery store.
engineeringwombocombo
A better point would be to compare livestock. Europe had cows and pigs- easily farmable. NAs had things like *buffalo*.
ZebraCockSandwich
Technically we had Bison :p but yes, there were very few easily domesticated animals, and very few native cereal crops. Europe had tons.
engineeringwombocombo
Shit mb, thanks for the correction
ZebraCockSandwich
no worries! they were called buffalo by European settlers originally, before we discovered they weren't related at all despite similarities.
ZebraCockSandwich
*and I should clarify, they are both in the bovine family, but not closely related enough to be considered buffalo
Zombieemperor
I mean the sad part is theres a point there, it doesnt make it ok but its not a "white" thing, humans are kinda ass when unchecked
zykotec
Can't use logic on white supremacists. It's like water on a goose.
pokemeintheeyewithastick
What do have against geese?
Skeevethegreat
Geese aren't as evil or mean spirited as white supremacists.
fireclanninja1337
Yes they are.
Skeevethegreat
Not even close. White supremacists are significantly worse
masiakasaurus
"They didn't have the wheel" and Europe didn't know how to grow fucking corn. What a Eurocentric outlook.
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
Plus it would be more accurate to say they didn't have beasts of burden to pull wheeled carts. Horses and North American camelids had ...
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
been hunted to extinction by their ice age ancestors and/or didn't survive the post-ice age climate change. S. America had llamas, but ...
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
they're not exactly the most cooperative of camelids. The North had buffalos. Good luck trying to domesticate those.
usernamethatsstillavailable
I mean that's kinda a bad example cuz there was no corn to be grown so how could they have known... but yeah I agree.
Iatesomecoffeecups
Also im fairly certain some of them did have wheels
BaWitda
1) Very few cultures independently invented the wheel and axle. It may have only happened once or twice in human history. Everyone else
BaWitda
2) was introduced to it by someone else. This includes people in Western Europe. It's not as obvious as it seems when you already have it.
Jak8714
It's worth remembering that native americans is a term as meaninglessly broad as white, or Asian; there was no single level of technology.
Jak8714
There were lots of different nations, with differing levels of developement.
inkthink
williamrichards
1. The wheel is useful everywhere. Knowing how to grow corn was only useful in places that had corn. Also, Europe knew how to do everything,
williamrichards
2. whether or not the religious sect that actually left the continent and arrived in North America knew how to do something is a different Q
MaybeCatsOperatingInGangs
MaybeCatsOperatingInGangs
Mate if you believe Europeans knew how to do everything no way in hell can you paint with all the colours of the wind rn
Norwegiansilverback
Europeans didn't know how to grow potatoes. The potato has been much more important for Europeans than corn.
BoNolHetAhrkDir
Given the second half, i shouldn't respond, but eh: wheels require solid open ground. Plenty of folks live where a wheel is dead weight.
30H1PPU5
Please tell me a single place where a wheel would be “dead weight”?
lowambitionz
Don’t bother friend, this post is filled with the typing stupid.
Arginotz
Native Americans also didn't have access to horses, making wheels unnecessary for transport except maybe hand carts.
lowambitionz
Yup only thing wheels are good for is uh horses and handcarts.
Arginotz
That wasn't my point. I'm not anti-wheel lol. I was just pointing out why they wouldn't have been useful for faster travel at that time.
lowambitionz
No one lives where a wheel isn’t useful. That’s ignorant af
DefinitelyAYoshi
And it isn't like they didn't KNOW about wheels. They just weren't useful for their purposes so they didn't use them.
lowambitionz
Wheels weren’t useful to Indians? You win the dumbest thing said award today and it’s before noon.
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
Yep. What they lacked were large domesticated animals to pull carts. Neither llamas nor buffalos are easy to train as beasts of burden.
DefinitelyAYoshi
Not to mention that except for the plains, the Americas are can be uneven in terrain, which is not great for even smaller, hand-pulled carts
AceOfShovels
Horses were a thing though, weren't they? History was not my thing in school so that's probably a dumb question
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
What SayIAmYou said. Horses were endemic during the Ice Age but went extinct a while after humans arrived. The wild mustangs you see in ...
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
Western movies were descended from domesticated horses that escaped the Conquistadores and the later settlers.
SayIAmYou
Native horses in the Americas were wiped out way earlier without being domesticated. Europeans reintroduced the species.
MisterBrahanovich
It’s true they didn’t have the wheel, but if you look at the Aztec and Inca cities they made up for it in other ways
lowambitionz
With virgin sacrifices!
TonnerreCadien
They actually did have the wheel - they used it on toys.
ZebraCockSandwich
Which I can only figure meant it was too time consuming on a large scale compared to their current methods. but idk
TonnerreCadien
I think it was primarily the lack of large draft animals.
Dailywitchery
You mean like the zero?
MisterBrahanovich
Also with the Inca the wheel wasn’t as practical due to the thick jungle everywhere
ravinoff
Turns out when your empire is built in mountain jungles, llamas work better than carts for transport. They climb stairs, even.
ZebraCockSandwich
just strap it on the llama and lets go!
DangerTrain
I don't know that it was white supremacy so much as it was just the desire to take land from somebody they could do it to.
covideokilledtheradiostar
Colonialism was very much a 'white thing'.
MarkVaCross
What about the Japanese, or the Chinese, or the Native Americans that subjugated their neighbors? Or anyone in history really?
covideokilledtheradiostar
What about them? Colonialism was something on a scale that surpassed most all other examples, maybe other than the Roman Empire. All
covideokilledtheradiostar
cultures have done shitty things, of course. But White European culture was especially significant in terms of both scale and being
covideokilledtheradiostar
relatively recent on the humanity timeline.
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
The post-hoc justifications are an example of white supremacist thinking. "We were so much more advanced." They discovered agriculture ...
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
more than 2k years before it spread from the Middle East to Central Europe. They already grew squash 10k yrs ago when our ancestors were ...
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
still nomadic hunter-gatherers, and built pyramids when Europeans lived in wooden stilt huts. Just because we had the benefit of not being…
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
geographically cut off from other civilizations after the ice age and thus able to reach the industrial stage earlier doesn't mean we're ...
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
inherently superior. If it weren't for discoveries in the Levant and North Africa we might have been stuck in the stone age for a couple ...
DangerTrain
The white supremacy came after that.
fireclanninja1337
Yeah it's when they had to share it with brown people that they started whining.
covideokilledtheradiostar
Well, it was the justification (well, ONE of the justifications) for colonialism.
OmenJones
Fucking over the indigenous people of the Americas precedes contemporary ideas of "race." The motive was greed, not tribalism.
NotACanadian
So no one TODAY is viewing Columbus in the light of white supremacy and viewing Native Americans in that light too?
lordofthegoats
European diseases did a number on native populations as they had no immunity but I highly "doubt" this dolt mean anyone with new diseases.
SepiaSkies
Jewish diaspora & the crusades called. Wanted to remind you: prior to invention of "race", cultural differences served to justify atrocity.
The5lacker
Hint: ALL racism is thinly veiled justification for greed.
JudgementalMan
And also pride. Its very popular with those who otherwise have nothing to celebrate.
WhoWantsAMustacheRide
Not actually true. Colonial and contemporary ideas of race came from Spanish 15th c. Post-inquisition. See Wynter, 1942 A New World (1995)
DaNylz
Race was just to justify it. Today religion is more trendy again.
blaghart
Also it's not like the white men were alone in that notion. The reason that the first colonists to later US were aided was specifically bc
blaghart
the local chief wanted a more powerful ally to let him defeat his local enemy tribes. Greed and thirst for power begat greed and thirst for
blaghart
power. And in the end the people with guns and diseases spread by centuries living in squalorous barbaric cities greed won.
DorianBlack
It really wasn't that simple either. It took centuries for colonizers to penetrate America's bc indigenous were great warriors peoples.
Shaodyn
"They had gold and refused to give it to us. We HAD to slaughter them."
Cragnock
and it hasn't stopped.
shawnemack
But it helped that they were not white. Makes them much easier to hate
RealScienceMan
I mean they also hated every other European too.
Sydonis12
Pretty much entire history of Europe is people murdering each other, dont really think they were concerned about the race all that much.
PunIshErnest
It's hard to be concerned about a shit, when the person who made up that shit wasn't even born yet.
BeKindToAll
And to that I would add the rest of the world…
cyrilzeta
Eh, Europeans were good at finding reasons: faith, language, hair color, all perfectly good reasons for hate, apparently
MatthewBecker
Poland slowly walks away from Europe
williamrichards
That isn't an exclusively European feature. That's a human feature.
Hoogemast
Yeah it's not like old China didn't go to war against Mongolia or vice versa. They build a great wall because of hate between cultures
cyrilzeta
Yeah I'm just saying that "white" supremacists will find a way to define ppl to not be white if needed.
tibbs3d
Wasn't the African slave trade beginning around the same time tho? I feel like race superiority plays a part there.
WhoWantsAMustacheRide
Yes, the work of Sylvia Wynter outlines how this happened just prior to Columbus.
Sighered
IbramKendi is a historian who did a deep analysis. IIRC he basically found racism was made up after to justify forced labor/power dynamics.
Taxicat
Reported on this in college, can confirm. Prior to that point, “race” was basically used interchangeably with “nationality.”
EVLWNS
Race had nothing to do with that, either. It just happened that Africans were selling, & Europeans (& others) were buying, that's all.
HiddenSanity
Yes and no, they were often selling because that was the agreement the more warlike groups made in exchange for guns and European support 1/
HiddenSanity
usually rounded up the civilizations that told the Europeans to pound sand when offered the same deal, there were nations levelled with 2/
HiddenSanity
that interference and tech advantage being given to those willing to abuse fellow humans and not given to those with morals.
williamrichards
That is absolute bullshit. Every European Empire saw the native populations of their colonies as sub human savages.
JudgementalMan
In the most general sense yes, but you can find critics and reformers of such practices within any of the Empires.
LurkNoMore2day
100%. Wondering if "precedes contemporary ideas" is just American for lack of understanding of anything outside the US?
OrC23
until they got to Nepal. They signed a treaty and went AROUND. They'd never experienced jungle warfare and you don't mess with Ghurkas.
BeKindToAll
Slavery has roots beyond europe, and most empires through history did it to others. Not justifying mind you, it just isn’t a european thing
williamrichards
Definitely not just a European thing. Just laughing at the idea of those Empires not believing in White Supremacy
JudgementalMan
Not really. Europeans mostly fought each other and didn't see themselves as
JudgementalMan
"the white race". Even when Europes banded together to fight Arabs it was framed religiously rather than racially.
NotACanadian
Holy shit, that's neither here nor there. Why are there so many historically illiterate people on Imgur?
BeKindToAll
Why are you calling me historically illiterate? Why not just share your thoughts in civil discourse?
NotACanadian
Already have. It would be like, and is like, pissing into the ocean. There is no civil discourse to be had with ignoramii.
PWBoiler
Because there are historically illiterate people everywhere.
NotACanadian
Then it would help if people didn't contribute.
FeedMeSeymore
Cortes' expedition made alliances with local tribes against the Aztecs, and when they captured Montezuma they didn't kill him, because 1/
NotACanadian
One more thing: Please don't use "tribes" when discussing Mesoamerica. Neither the ethnicities nor polities in the region had a "tribal" 1/
NotACanadian
2/ form of organization. For thousands of years up to Spanish contact Mesoamerica was a politically diverse and dynamic region filled with
NotACanadian
4/ traditions that were very similar to what contemporary Europe had. This is an example of the settler-colonial anti-indigenous narratives
NotACanadian
3/ its own monarchies (absolute, elective and constitutional), republics, empires, leagues and unions, with complex political and legal
NotACanadian
5/ I briefly mentioned in the other chain.
FeedMeSeymore
because they recognized him as a foreign monarch. It's only around the time of the transatlantic slave trade that race-base oppression 2/
williamrichards
Yeah, that's completely not right. Cortez was a racist monster who's only concern for the lives of the indigenous was their value as slaves
FeedMeSeymore
became the norm, because they had to justify their inhuman treatment of Africans. That said, the roots of white supremacy run deeper than 3/
FeedMeSeymore
just the public justifications. The origins may have been greed, but the systems of oppression were race-based, and self sustaining.
NotACanadian
They definitely killed him; the accounts of Bernal Diaz and the like were heavily propagandized and the native account in the 1/
NotACanadian
2/ Florentine Codex provides a different account. Atahualpa was also killed in a very underhanded way. And Tangaxuan II. And Cofitachequi.
[deleted]
[deleted]
NotACanadian
6/ If you don't know shit about the Americas, don't SAY shit. You're not gonna get the whole story from Wikipedia. 99% of people in this
NotACanadian
5/ didn't become formalized until the 19th century doesn't mean people didn't think in this way LONG before then.
NotACanadian
4/ that the "Indios" didn't possess actual souls and thus could be freely enslaved and not required to convert. Just because modern racism
NotACanadian
3/ And countless other indigenous rulers. It was actually assumed by a lot of people, before the Catholic Church *finally* decided otherwise
NotACanadian
7/ comments section don't do this.
FeedMeSeymore
But the next time you want to inform someone like myself, maybe don't be such a fuckin' prick about it. I know the default emotion of the 2/
FeedMeSeymore
Hey, I wanted to let you know that I'm going to look into the sources that you mention, because I honestly didn't know this was disputed. 1/
FeedMeSeymore
Maybe tomorrow I'll be right. But you'll still be a sanctimonious asshole.
FeedMeSeymore
life, serves me right for opening my big mouth. So nice for you to look down on people who get their info where they can when they can. 4/
FeedMeSeymore
internet is outrage, but just because I'm misinformed doesn't mean I'm not trying to be better. I thought I knew something for once in my 3/
FeedMeSeymore
It's not either of my jobs to research obscure history, so I listen to those who do, and I try to vary my info diet. Sometimes I'm wrong. 5/
RetroBlast
This isn't "white supremacy" - if one group could dominate another, in history they often did. Not condoning it, human beings are bastards.
ahernandez
Many native populations lived in peace with each other. We only generalize them based on the propaganda that was taught to us
Alpha5772
Yeah, if we don't make better people with more empathy, the earth and all life on it is screwed.
Jumpercables24
There are people here that believes otherwise even now. Talk with your dead grandparents now for invading other cultures. If anybody can
Jumpercables24
, I'll accept the injustices. Those times were different. Same idea applies to slavery. So now, be good to yourself n be good to others.
DanCutter
Yeah… but my white ancestors were reeeeaaally good at it, so I get to eat some crow now and again. (I live in Hawai’i, so… daily)
Hucklepuck
Yeah but it was white people that ended up doing it in this circumstance, and this has consequences that are felt to this day.
dinosaurzoologist
covideokilledtheradiostar
In that colonialism was, essentially, white supremacy, it's a fitting parallel.
Irishda
Well hop on into that time machine, Doc Brown, and let another group establish centuries of genocide so we can call it something else
LordNergal
He's not allowed to use the time machine after he accidentally sank Atlantis.
Ispentfartoolongtryingtocomeupwithausernamebeforejoining
Just because the term didn't exist doesn't mean the basis and motivation behind the acts weren't the same thing in this case. It was, at >
Ispentfartoolongtryingtocomeupwithausernamebeforejoining
it's core, white people killing natives because they considered themselves superior and entitled to the land.
dirtcreature
You mean, like any war that has been fought since we crawled out of the mud?
FrolickingFrolicking
False, the white supremacy is the racist “or some other MORE ADVANCED culture.” It’s false to say they were less advanced, all considered
FrolickingFrolicking
One side had guns, germs, steel, and sociopathic ideology of domination
thisiscatman
I love cats. That is my contribution to discussions on humanity.
EverNotRelevant
It's literally justifying the treatment of indigenous peoples in the Americas, so yeah. White supremacy.
RetroBlast
It's saying "if not Europeans, any other advanced culture would probably have dominated them," not "Whites are inherently superior."
NotACanadian
Like how the Chinese and Japanese militarily and politically dominated the Philippines? Not everything is a Civ-style inevitable course.
EverNotRelevant
In context, it's speaking of white Europeans and their brutality toward indigenous people.
MatthewBecker
He is excusing centuries of brutal government enforce racial policy towards a single cultural group.
MatthewBecker
By suggesting it was going to happen regardless implying the victim should be happy it wasn't worse.
MatthewBecker
This is the logic of literal children.
Sydonis12
It was going to happen anyway, and he didnt imply that. He just stated a simple fact, due to technological advances, someone would discover
onecowboytoo
So was it white supremacy when England conquered Ireland and Scotland? What about the Roman Empire or Vikings taking other whites? 1/x
EverNotRelevant
Hey, holy fucking non sequitur Batman.
onecowboytoo
It was the same stuff that always happened these people just had a slightly different skin color. More advanced better armed 1/2
onecowboytoo
civilizations have almost always conquered lesser civilizations in the past regardless of skin color.
TheVermonster
It was probably all those video games they were playing. /s
mrmundt
If they didn't, most of us wouldn't be here to be offended. History is just repeating itself over and over and the people not responsible /
FrolickingFrolicking
“Most of us wouldn’t be here to be offended” oh yeah and the nazis got some great real estate prices after the holocaust? That’s called evil
mrmundt
Are the ones who feel bad and are angry. The people doing it and covering it up don't care.
Ialwayslookhungover
Right. And the question of the day is always why do we have a day celebrating the guy who started it for this group?
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thedadwhobeatshiskidwithjumpercables
In retrospect picking the genocidal rapist for the holiday to promote Italian Americans was a bad move.
sal0qwerty
Yesterday was indigenous peoples day
LordNergal
Because human beings are bastards.
DropKickHead
This is the worst part of the romanticism towards indigenous peoples. They were just as brutal to each other as Europeans to them. Europeans
covideokilledtheradiostar
But at the same time, they weren't hell bent on world domination via colonialism. Sure, they had wars, just like Europeans. Still not the
covideokilledtheradiostar
same as colonialism.
DropKickHead
You're assuming all native Americans weren't imperialistic. I 100% believe that if my Aztec ancestors had a bit more time, they'd have >
DropKickHead
Conquered north America the same way Alexander the Great conquered the middle east. It's just, the Europeans beat us to it.
30H1PPU5
It’s honestly super insulting “noble savage” bullshit….like all the native tribes were bffs and it was all live and peace before the
30H1PPU5
Europeans came along. Tribal wars were just as brutal as native/European wars. They still killed each other and enslaved each other.
covideokilledtheradiostar
And yes, there's still gigantic differences between what white Europeans did vs, what Native Americans and Africans did.
30H1PPU5
So white people killing brown people is more tragic than brown people killing brown people?
DropKickHead
Just happened to be better at it. Look up native American torture methods. They were often awful to each other.
dresdenflame
Which tribe specifically?
DropKickHead
One I know off the top of my head are the Mohawk. I count Mesoamericans as native Americans too, since they're literally natives of America.
covideokilledtheradiostar
People everywhere were awful to each other. Europeans made a special version of that where they were awful to others because they were a
covideokilledtheradiostar
different color.
Conser1
The fuck do you think racism is? It's just a more advanced version of tribalism.
covideokilledtheradiostar
ooh...looks like I triggered the white boys.
justCreatedThisToCommentHere
I downvote because it's not some "special version" created exclusively by Europeans. One look at Asian history will show you that.
DropKickHead
(cont) just take a look at the Aztecs and imagine if they had a chance to invade Spain, they would have. But they just didn't have the tech.
SerenePrincess013
What you see as "torture" was often their citizens going as a willing sacrifice to their gods. It was seen as an honour to be picked.>
SerenePrincess013
Putting the white-washed viewpoint of "THEY KILLED THEIR OWN PEOPLE" onto an ancient society does nothing more than perpetuate the myth of>
DropKickHead
For instance, in Eastern North American tribes, captured war prisoners were often tortured for days until their death. It wasn't pretty.
DropKickHead
Often isn't always. War prisoners weren't volunteers lol just Google search "native American torture methods"
TsunamiJohn
Yeah, imagine you refusing after they pick you. And imagine not having that abusive aspect of culture to begin with.
Ryanator50
that's true. people like to pretend that native americans, Africans, or literal Indians were living peacfully before the british took over.
DropKickHead
It's exasperating. People think I'm supporting white supremacy, when I'm actually proud of how ferocious my native American ancestors were.
Ryanator50
that's good! you should be!
DropKickHead
Like, my ancestors would rip the hearts out of people while they were still alive. That's pretty fuckin metal. Don't take that from me.
Ryanator50
yeah that's badass.