thetinymonarch
41342
944
165
It is so incredibly hypocritical for people to say they are for women's rights and protection and then call for the ban of the hijab. You can't say women should be free and then control what they can wear.
Our fight is with oppression, not with the hijab, if a women wants to wear a hijab let her, if she doesn't, let her.
We are not fighting against religions or clothes. We are fighting against control and oppression.
pickleops
Oh look another unnecessary equivalency being drawn.
desmoquattro
Look to France for the origin of this fight. Eventually it spread to Quebec and elsewhere. The far right and the far left united behind the "foulard" (literally "scarf", itself a dismissive bit of language) issue in a bizarre bit of terrible serendipity: right because xenophobia and anti-muslim attitudes, the left because of the perception of oppression. Usually the oppression angle was the public statement but behind the veil it was just repackaged anti-immigrant shit.
my1rstlaptopwas34inchscreenup
i'm fighting against religion. but i wont enforce clothing restriction. if you're religious it's your problem. just dont try to put your bullshit on me
BoobJiggle
I've been saying it my entire adult life.
People can do whatever the fuck they want to do and deserve to be left alone.. as long as they aren't hurting anyone else, it is nobody's business. Leave people the fuck alone.
If they want to wear a hijab, go for it, more power to 'em, if they don't want to wear one, great, don't wear one. But what someone else wears is nobody's business except the person putting on the clothes / headgear.
Repubs need to grow TF up
rubypilgrim
It's not a black and white situation. Women are def not thriving now in Afghanistan. They have no choice about wearing a hijab. It's not one religion, it's a lot of them that have similar rules restricting women. How is a free state to prevent a religion from abusing a class of its members within the borders of that state? How to craft laws that protect the right to wear a hijab but also prevent one from being forced to wear it? All of it is about behavior control. Who chooses the behaviors?
armorgamesmfa
"Personally I would never want to be a member of any group where you either have to wear a hat, or you can't wear a hat."
ComradeBinch
I agree with OP. Also, soooooo I'd love to know if any muslim women are in the comments and what their actual opinions are because it seems to be a whoooole lot of westerners with strong words deciding what women should be feeling here
EroticZombiePants
This is one of those rare things where it's happening in Europe and not really in America. It's honestly strange to type that.
bbnycs
There's no freedom of religion without enforcing freedom from religion.
Pally01
So how do you tell apart a woman wants to wear the Hijab from one who is forced to? What's your testing methodology?
thetinymonarch
She will tell you. How do you determine if any women is not being forced to wear something?
unluckyandbored
Wear (or don't) what you want.
BORGALOOGIE
“Fuck you I won’t do you tell me” —RATM
Coreation
Banning the hijab from schools is definitely not as bad as mandating it. A 6 year old wearing a hijab has nothing to do with free will.
RottedOnion
As long as it's her free choice to wear it.
nrthwnd
Never I guess
IGotMyDreamJobProgrammingGames
And she isn't "choosing" to wear it because she was brainwashed into thinking she'd be punished by some god for not wearing it.
cazzegiare
Narrator: "it rarely is". I don't say this glibly. I've known plenty of women from repressive parts of the world where even leaving their house or talking to a non-related male requires parental permission. Refusing to wear a hijab would be a near death sentence for them. The Islamic patriarchy gets giddy when people talk about defending the hijab, because it lines up perfectly with what they are imposing. I won't get into the 'ban' or 'no ban' debate – its upto every society to find a way.
DeguRatface
It's definitely not a black and white issue. She's free not to wear it, as long as she doesn't mind being physically attacked, shunned or abused for not doing so. It doesn't need to be mandated for it to be mandatory on a social level.
Margrave9000
Nobody owes you proving anything.
treknor
exactly ..
SeeShark
Is it really a free choice, though, if she faces social stigma from her family and community if she chooses not to?
warriorofdiscord
Yes... it is. You're just describing "socialization." All communities have it. The punk movement faced social stigmas. Same with goth/emo. This isn't some wacky, weird, unique thing.
Quebeker
She’s free to be shunned by those she love. That’s not freedom
Kitehammer
Yes. People are allowed to be dicks.
echonite
We cant really control what happens within the family like that, but we can control what the government does (To a degree), so making sure its not the government telling you what to do here is the important part.
SeeShark
Sure, but my point is that just "letting people do what they want" is abandoning abuse victims. If we don't outright ban hijabs, we need a lot more social programs helping girls and women make the choice that's actually right for them, rather than the choice they are pressured to make.
echonite
That is outside the scope of the what the government should be involved in. That requires a societal change. Mandating this sort of thing through law is not the way to go. You can have all the social programs you want, but once they go back home, its out of our hands. (Barring anything illegal)
OverthinkingThis
Completely agreed on the latter. On the former this is where we need to reinforce that we are talking about enforcement policy, not ethical arguments. When talking policy, you have to take into account the how as well as the why. How would you enforce making sure the hijab is being worn willingly? On a state/federal level? How can that state *enforce* consent? Obviously we would all *prefer* people choosing the best option, but there are limits to what a proper authority can do.
Beardedgeek72
You MUST assume agency, otherwise you are just assuming women can't decide for themselves. Your argument can just as well be used for choosing to wear it.
SeeShark
I AM assuming agency--I'm not assuming they're indoctrinated. I'm just ALSO assuming a world where that agency has to make sacrifices.
dreikommavierzehn
I've known several young women that were forced by their family under the threat of violence to wear it. What degree of violence? The kind of violence that all of them feared of being killed by their brothers if they dated an Austrian boy and one being so afraid of just being seen sitting next to one in public.
That experience made that topic a whole lot more complex for me personally where I live.
Beardedgeek72
And? You cannot assume guilty before proof, or do you also assume women who have OnlyFans accounts are forced by someone else to do it?
dreikommavierzehn
Exactly. Which is why I said it made the topic more complex
DSREX
Choice and religious indoctrination are a fickle thing.
Many have issue with the Hijab but never question a Nun wearing a Habit. Now to me the Nun is living a life of spiritual dedication and her garb is a reflection of that. The Hijab and the other more extreme coverings are not reflective of that. But are a tool of suppression, keeping women a second class.
They cover themselves instead of tempting men with their beauty.
It is all about control, by men who fear that women would not stay.
Appollon
As far as I understand, nuns become nuns when they are of age, not every girl is groomed to become a nun when they grow up, and they would not be shunned or in danger if they did not become nuns. A nun's habit is just one of the things they change about their lifestyle, like remaining chaste and childless. However, if a girl is raised to be a nun from childhood (high-control church/cult), she does not fully make that choice for herself, even as an adult. Same as with hijabs.
DSREX
THere are of course girls raised to do that in for sure. But we are talkign numbers and perception.
Few even think twice about a Nun's dress vs the Hijab.
Calicious
I can't wait until ignorant religions go the way of the dodo. Until then, if people want to do irrational things that don't hurt anyone, we should let them.
erinaceus
now say that in french.
MyPseudoIsAlduinSkyrimStoleItFromMe
just for argument sake, isn't it normalizing control and oppression? Should we allows symbols of control and oppression to be worn freely (Swastika and the like are prohibited in Germany for example)?
thetinymonarch
The swastika was the symbol of the oppressors not a symbol plasted on the oppressed. Why do you think it's okay to say "you are not allowed to wear the religious dress of your dress willingly?"
MyPseudoIsAlduinSkyrimStoleItFromMe
Would it be ok for people to wear a yellow star of David then, if they wear it "willingly"
thetinymonarch
yes, people do. i have a pink triangle on my coat for the gay men and women
MyPseudoIsAlduinSkyrimStoleItFromMe
That Is good, reappropriation of the object of oppression. So it's no longer a symbol of oppression it used to empower now. Hijab and especially Burkas are not reappropriated yet.
thetinymonarch
they can't be if you banned them
treknor
thank you @OP
TripleDane
This works well on the basics the woman is free. The issue is that the hijab is often forced on the woman by external sources. The ban is not meant to forbid the woman. but to ban the external source to force it on the woman.
This causes a conflict naturally.
Woman wanting to wear a hijab vs woman wanting not to be forced to wear one.
TripleDane
So you make a cost benefit analytics. is it better to restrict one option for some people and open up for tons of options for some person.
or better to save the one options for some people while restricting tons of options for offers
so it boils down to math and what is the optimal outcome with the current system until the system can be changed for an even better solution
TripleDane
and simply restricting a single options vs restricting a lot of options.. the single options is probably have less restrictions aka more freedom in it.
Youhavinagiraffe
These debates always happen in western nations where the government and the law is already on these women's side. If they are being abused and co-erced that is already a crime and I don't see how an extra banning of the hijab would help her in any way. In fact it probably makes it worse because if she is already in that oppressive situation where she must wear it to leave the house... now she is just banned from leaving the house at all
nojustsayitdont
*basis
Emiloo74
justsam8402
Is it? My wife recently mentioned a colleague who is a hijabi and who takes it off when in meetings with only other women. It certainly seems like she would prefer to now wear it at all but is being pressured into it. Prohibiting it would remove that pressure? I'm not saying it is alright to ban them but I don't think it's "as bad" as mandating them. Certainly mandating it would oppress more women than banning them in most cultures.
Seanspeed
Where does she live? In a western country, there are no rules or even cultural norms demanding any women wear a hijab. So they should be free to wear one if they want, as plenty of women do. But if we're talking heavy Muslim fundamentalist countries, we cant even begin to talk about this conversation without addressing the much bigger and more serious underlying issues.
justsam8402
*not wear it at all
thetinymonarch
Or she's a practicing Muslim woman who follows the rules. I can't make a assessment on a anecdote
Appollon
When someone removes something at the first opportunity they get, chances are they would be ok if that opportunity never ended.
thetinymonarch
I take my shoes off first chance I get, do you think I'd be ok if I never wore shoes again?
sabrinadiesatdawn
I would agree with you except that there are places in this world in which it is legal to kill a female family member for not wearing a hijab in public. I think this topic is a bit too complicated for blanket statements of moral equivalence.
Youhavinagiraffe
None of those countries are the ones where hijab bans are being discussed. It agree that, in those countries, the overall effect of a ban like that might be positive... but mainly because the entire society would have to change for that to be on the table in the first place
thetinymonarch
So you agree that blanket calls for Bans are bad
sabrinadiesatdawn
In a country like the US, Canada, the UK, or France, obviously yes. If Greece were to decide to emulate Alexander and conquer much of Europe and the middle East, I do not know if I would oppose them temporarily banning hijabs in Saudi Arabia
Skizmo
Time to start teaching critical thinking so nobody will fall for the religious cult trap anymore.
mrgreen326
You can bring a horse to water...
PosthumousExile
I was taught critical thinking in college. Most people don't make it to college
painstream
In my day, critical thinking was for Gifted students. Turns out that's a mistake.
TZO2k15
And by teaching we should mean, from K-12 onward towards your training for your new position in your career, as the only time you should finally graduate while mastering this skill is when you die of old age…
sagejosh0
That’s how you get a bunch of people that can think for them selves. That’s waaaay too scary for the people in power.
KillingTlme
You're welcome America, and the rest of the world by proxy. https://www.eastcountymagazine.org/recognizing-fake-news-now-required-subject-california-schools
KillingTlme
We all know that what California starts, will many time becomes the standard.
HandoB4Javert
ahleron
The Republicans in the US really don't want that
mrgreen326
Keep em poor keep em dumb is their motto
OppaGangnamPyle
Easy to say if you live in a country that sells freedom
Psionickitten
The country that "sells freedom" I believe you're referring to is, due to corruption, more of a plutocracy with vestigial Democratic Republic processes than what it claims to be. A different flavor of oppression, if you will.
TZO2k15
Critical thinking is a skill that is free to learn, and easy to start...
OppaGangnamPyle
When you live in a country that stones women to death it doesn't really matter what your thoughts or beliefs are. All the critical thinking in the world won't change how your oppressors treat you.
TZO2k15
That is when critical thinking is much needed, sure, you may be living in a religious cult's state, but to remain ignorant would be much worse than self-education, and by that, you DON'T need schools and/or other institutions. Yes, I get that male/religious-dominated societies exist, but if the entire population of women/girls remain ignorant, then the evil ones have truly won!
I mean, critical thinking is what contributed to our specie's advancement and survival!
OppaGangnamPyle
By saying that I can't help but feel you're implying that these oppressed women don't have the ability/motivation/wherewithal (?) to utilize critical thinking. When oppression is all you know I'm pretty sure their own and their children's survival takes intense critical thinking.
ahorseelbowdeepinme
What about critical thinking precludes religion, exactly?
AranaDiscoteca
Honestly? It's just one big group think regarding religion. People don't see nuance, situations, etc. They don't even really acknowledge other religions that aren't Abrahamic in their protests. Ask people why they hate Wiccans so much and you'll get silence and downvotes. Why don't they approve of zen? What's evil about Rastafari?
Humans are tribal creatures and need something to feel superior to for their own esteem.
InsanityOnTheInternet
Faith is just an unjustified belief and as such precludes critical thinking.
ahorseelbowdeepinme
Where are you getting that definition from? Society would collapse without faith.
Psionickitten
It doesn't preclude it, per se, but when you accept a religion, consciously or unconsciously, you are taking a leap of faith without concrete evidence to its universal truth. Thus, to apply its practices and restrictions universally to others that have not taken that leap of faith, and to claim it as mandatory shows a lack of critical thinking in how if you choose to practice a religion. It is a personal choice, not a universal truth, even if you've taken the leap of faith to believe it is.
ahorseelbowdeepinme
That's my point. It doesn't preclude it. Forcing others to abide by your faith is wrong but that wasn't the point of the initial claim that I disagreed with.
Psionickitten
If that was your point, it would have been better received by the community had you responded with it. Although, I see the point in asking it, to see if the original poster has the critical thinking to make that distinction, at the cost of being well received. Neither of your statements really are beneficial without explicitly stating the distinction though, because that's the pertinent point of this conversation.
goodtimehadbyall
Religion necessitates is believing in magic, not anything with any scientific evidence, so yes, if everyone employed critical thinking to their decisions religions would not exist. So it does preclude them. However, teaching it will not stop religion as knowing how to reason and thinking scientifically does not mean folks will when it means no longer fitting in with their family and social circles.
ahorseelbowdeepinme
People can be religious and think scientifically. Science and religion aren't inherently at opposing ends of any scale.
zufallszahlen
depends what you're calling a religion but a religion based on irrational superstitious nonsense folklore fairy tale and faith precludes critical thinking
ahorseelbowdeepinme
Has it been disproven?
Pally01
Burden of proof lies with the person making the assertion. Religion makes a lot of assertions; ergo the burden of proof is upon them.
ahorseelbowdeepinme
No one here claimed that religion is true. The claim made was that critical thinking is somehow kryptonite to religion. The burden of proof on that claim has yet to be met.
zufallszahlen
has it been proven?
ahorseelbowdeepinme
Doesn't matter if it's been proven. If it hasn't been disproven why does it have to be false?
MeanMisterClean
Just because something hasn't been disproven, that doesn't mean it's not ridiculous to believe. What if our whole universe exists in a giant, ever-expanding gay werewolf's asshole?
ahorseelbowdeepinme
What's "ridiculous" for you to believe is entirely up to you. Acting like your beliefs on religion are the only valid ones without being about to disprove anyone else's conflicting views is where the issues arise.
UnluckyLunkhead
When hijabs are banned, the same law will ban a nun's habit.
Appollon
If those nuns were groomed from a young age to only be nuns, never have a partner, pray all day long, never have family or kids, and to wear the habit, etc then so be it. As I understand, nowadays it's not the case, except maybe in cults, like christian fundies, scientology or what have you - different flavors of the same thing. Women oppression does not end with Islam.
Fuyu159753
It might surprise you but nuns will survive that.
ahorseelbowdeepinme
Most people would survive having their freedoms trampled on.
UnluckyLunkhead
I don't particularly care either way, but those who would legislate against religious headgear will try (& fail) to create an exemption for their own religion.
EroticZombiePants
Nuns themselves might not survive too much longer. At least in America, the vast majority of nuns are older women, many of them senior citizens.
Beardedgeek72
It might surprise you but you just approved of religious persecution.
Swedsman
It really is the height of white 1st world privilege to pretend the question of hijabs comes down to personal choice when the pressure put on girls trapped in the archaic islamic structures includes threat of legit murder if they don't conform to the will of the clan. The veil in any form, be it burqa, niqqab or hijab, is a vile practice with disgusting implications towards women, especially those of a young age. It's an expression of oppression and misogyny on a level you do not understand /1
Seanspeed
But we're not talking about women trapped into an Islamic fundamentalist culture. We're talking about the west here. And this case, equating something like the hijab with a burqa is just insane.
Swedsman
The hijab is just another form of the burqa, they serve the same purpose. If you think that the west is immune to islamic fundamentalist culture then you need to grow up, all it takes is to visit one of the many socially insecure areas dominated by immigrants from these cultures. I've done it, and seen the harm fundamentalism does to a segregated, overlooked society. Largely thanks to useful idiots like you who they managed to trick that their insane wahabist deathcult is synonymous to islam
Seanspeed
"The hijab is just another form of the burqa" - I'm glad we're establishing how insanely ignorant and uninformed y'all are on this subject. I called it elsewhere, but this really demonstrates it. And calling me a "useful idiot" cuz I dont think we should ban the hijab(while agreeing to ban the burqa) really shows how people like you have no ability to see nuance. Everything is always just binary for you, cuz you're not interested in learning more about this shit.
Swedsman
They serve the same purpose and share the same symbolism you ignorant waffle, it's like if the nazis painted the yellow star green to symbolize ecofriendliness and you would've swallowed it whole, you absolute cretin.
fireflyseasontwo
And would you ban headwear from all other religions like wigs that Jewish women wear? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_covering_for_Jewish_women >>
What about the headwear that the men have? No more kippahs/shtreimels/Borsalinos? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kippah >> Or are you sexist about restricting who wears what on their heads?
How about British royal hats (tams)?
Swedsman
And ho do you think I an be so sure what I'm talking about? Because I've seen it first hand. I used to work extra in school cafeterias during my highschool years and there came in contact with many immigrant youths. Most of them, the overwhelming majority where fantastic bright individuals. But the one experience that will stick with me for the rest of my life was that of a young girl that was embracing her new life and friends. She was indistinguishable from any other kids, she hung out with /2
fireflyseasontwo
Dude, your little story about your schoolmate is almost identical to the one I went through with my mom only we were a non-religious family & there was no hijab. So how would banning a piece of clothing that wasn't even part of our culture change what I went through? You are letting a piece of cloth take on significance to explain away a jerk parent (a problem in every culture) and are willing to oppress all other woman to make yourself feel more comfortable. It *is* Islamophobic, but you know
Swedsman
Saying that the hijab is harmless cause domestic violence happens to non-muslims is like saying drinking and driving is ok cause there are accidents where alcohol is not involved, JFC
Swedsman
both native and immigrant friends and was always happy whenever I saw. Her dipshit older cousin however in a grade above her was one of the bad ones, one who clung to their old, vile clan rules all the way. Again, one out of hundreds of fantastic children I\ve encountered, but still. It all came to a head when his sister started dating a swedish boy in her class. This was one straw too much for her dipshit cousin who ratted her out to her father. I only heard what happened second hand but I /3
Swedsman
heard oud and clear. There where some sort of comotion in the hallway, long loud enough I could hear all the way from the school kitchen with all the machines running. I later learned her father had confronted her at school and literally dragged her away. The next times I saw her she was completely different. Shy, scared and submissive and hidden beneath that vile piece of clothing. She no longer hung out with her friends and classmates, she only sat with her cousin and his group. After the /4
Swedsman
summer break she disapeared, or at least I never saw her again. There where rumors going she had been sent back to Iran to her clan to be "cured" of her westernization and beaten in line with their backwater, shit cultural believes. There where even talks she had been married to an older relative. Again, nothing I can verify but it wouldn't be the first case as this is a known issue that does happen. And I can tell you, harsh as it sounds, after watching the light and hope die in this /5
Swedsman
poor childs eyes I will with 100% conviction say that I'd rather see the "choice" of a thousand women to choose this disgusting practice taken away if it means the chances of just one child to have a marginally lesser chance to suffer this fate is worth it. Call me all the ism's and phobes in the book. This has nothing to do with race, nore with islam. The veil is not an islamic practice. This has all to do with a vile and dangerous culture that not only hurts, but end lives of sp many women
Cthulhuchooseyou
Are you suggesting not banning the swastika in Germany, simply because some people want to wear it?
Youhavinagiraffe
The actual analogy that would fit is if Germany should ban people from displaying their tattoo numbers because the history of it makes others uncomfortable
fireflyseasontwo
Hopefully you are not conflating the swastika with cultural clothes associated with Muslims... would you ban wigs since many Jewish women wear them because their religious halakha law mandates hair is covered? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut#Dress >> htt">Dress">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut#Dress >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_covering_for_Jewish_women
thetinymonarch
The swastika is the symbol of the oppressor not the oppressed. The symbols placed on Jews, gays, etc are not banned
Seanspeed
So you *do* draw a line somewhere, then? What do you think about burqas? Cuz I'm 100% supportive of banning burqas in western countries. They are 100% instruments of oppression.
thetinymonarch
Why do you want to punish women for being forced to wear something?
Seanspeed
Ok, so you'd do better to get to the main point here - "How do we enforce this without making women the victims?". This undoubtedly wont be easy, but we need to send the women home, tell them they have to change and give them a talk about what to do if their husband/caretaker abuses them. Given the relatively small percentage of burqa wearers in western country, we could even give them clothes more appropriate to wear, and perhaps even still culturally-aligned.
thetinymonarch
You are still punishing the woman. You are telling woman to stay home until they dress to your standards.
PanNonOpticon
How is banning wearing burqas punishing women? Look what is happening in Afganistan. Most women don't want to wear it. Same in Iran. I bet even in Europe most that wear burqas are wearing it unwillingly.
thetinymonarch
because if they are being forced to wear them still they will be punished and not the person forcing them
TiredBanana
You are correct. Control and bans with "our better reason" improves nothing. Too bad half of Imgur is specifically fighting religion. They don't want logic or reason they want a scapegoat. They have made their personality all about hating religion and any criticism towards that is instantly strawmanned as bigoted snowflake talk because when they label everyone who doesn't echo their hate as a bigoted Bible thumper they never have to challenge their logic and rhetoric.
Pally01
Yeah! You kick the butt of that strawman you made up!
TiredBanana
Well. I mean... That's why they make them.
loma45
He's not really wrong about the Imgur's community's views on religion though. This place is often rabidly anti-religious to the point where I've seen highly upvoted comments saying things like "anyone who is religious is mentally ill" etc. The community here rarely has a nuanced view when it comes to religion.
TiredBanana
This is my very point. I tend to express it a bit extremely because i find it frustrating how easily any attack on religion is taken at face value to be brilliant criticism. Even when it's just lazy broad brushing and scapegoating and any challenge to that narrative gets labeled as bigoted whining. Zealous hate blinds reason even if there isn't deity worship involved.
obijan
>anyone who is religious is mentally ill
Fun fact: You can't be religious without thinking others are mentally ill.
"Look at all those idiots and thinking their invisible sky daddy exists! Only mine actually exists and he is going to punish everybody who got it wrong!"
loma45
That's not really a fact. I know plenty of religious people who don't think people from other religions are mentally ill. Plenty don't actually believe in the concepts of hell and eternal damnation, so that part is wrong too. Turns out trying to paint 85% of the human population with 1 brush isn't all that useful or accurate most of the time.
TiredBanana
You are kinda proving my point here, bud.
Pally01
So, you see some statements you feel victimise you, and decide that represents the whole community.
loma45
I'm not religious - so I haven't been victimized at all. And it doesn't represent the "whole" community, but it's certainly the prevailing view here judging by what gets upvoted both in posts and comments.
TiredBanana
I don't feel victimised, but you did just make the kind of strawman i mentioned. Anyone criticising criticism of religion must be some fragile religious nut because there's no way it can be valid critique no matter how illogical or bad faith the subject of the criticism may be. Makes retorting points you don't like so much easier doesn't it... When everyone who doesn't echo your view is just some dumb sky daddy fan. Let's you feel like you win any and all debates.
TiredBanana
Sound familiar? Like a certain fascist cult that labels everyone who challenges them a commie, unpatriotic, a Satan worshipper and whatnot so any challenge to their views can instantly be dismissed because it came from "one of them".
Beardedgeek72
I am atheist, and I am dead set against banning it. People who want to ban religious practices that do not harm others are fanatics and or dicks.
Coreation
You'd allow little school girls to wear them even with the knowledge of how countries like Iran, Iraq, Algeria, Egypt, Turkey, Afghanistan looked like in the 60's, 70's before Islamism took over?
Beardedgeek72
Never seen little girls wearing them over here. Plenty of adult women in religious garb and young daughters in leggings and a sweatshirt with uncovered hair tho.
Coreation
There's plenty of them, enough so to let schools change their guidelines regarding "religious symbols". (in Belgium at least, but I reckon across Europe). I've seen plenty of examples in Ghent myself of schoolgirls wearing them outside school - which is their right, but schools should not stand for this. Especially when they are then framing it as "religious symbols are allowed, but only of the 'recognized religions". We all know that this is done for Islam, we did not have this 20-30 years ago.
Coreation
I see your point @BeardedGeek72, but apart from what you and I are seeing, if schools are turning away from secularity and moreover, to serve 1 religion specifically, I believe that is a very dangerous precedent. Mind you that ~7-8% of the people in Europe are Muslim. These are very, deeply conservative practises. To then allow even in schools to be pressured to wear it is huge setback for child care. I'm a "white" atheist, but I've spoken to Turkish co-workers who backed up what I said here.
Coreation
Which is that, at least for the Turkish community in Ghent, it's all coming from the very conservative Islamist East of the country, while there's a large part in Turkey that does not adhere to those strict rules. He was very much "upset" that we just assumed it's much like "catholicism" in Western Europe. It's not. Current catholicism is a watered down version of what it used to be inspired by enlightenment and the separation of church and state. Islam never had en equal event. But I'm open
Beardedgeek72
No schools I know of are turning away from secularism. Of course I am not British. The point is moot in America anyway since over there religion has already sneaked itself into every part of society from school prayers to printing prayers on their money.
itiswhatitis420
pro-ban people believe they are "rescuing" the women because they think nobody would willingly want to wear it
Margrave9000
Pure colonialist mindset.
TheWombatStrikesAgain
Willingness is a complicated matter though. "The law says I have to!" is obviously not willing. But what about "My family might disown me and even possibly murder me if I don't."? Or how willing is "My society and religious leaders shame me if I don't."? Or what about "I've been indoctrinated since childhood that not doing this makes me less worthy in the eyes of my god, to the point where I actually do feel like less of a person if I don't?"
drakionx
Everyone willinging wears it in every country where you're killed if you don't.
Skuggen
I tend to instead assume it's just an excuse for their racist bullshit, kinda like people wanting to ban abortion claiming they just want to protect the lives of unborn children.
Youhavinagiraffe
I think most staunchly pro-ban people just don't like seeing very visibly ethnic-looking people in public spaces. I have never understood how a ban is supposed to help any of these women in any way. It's just an extra thing they have to worry about being punished for
Appollon
I agree that banning it may hurt some women more by family not allowing them to ever leave their house. But I do not agree that it is a ethnic thing. Hijab is a way to put responsibility for males (cannot call them men) SAing women onto the women, not the assailants, and women being brainwashed to feel "less than" without one. Yes, seeing visible reminders of oppression is icky, even if some can indeed be pretty.
Akurei00
There's often a lot of people on here that exhibit strong knee -jerk reactions to content. Expressing that certain things should be enforced but, because they believe they're in the right, don't recognize that they're proponents of the exact same behaviors to which they're so vocally opposed.
Allowing such actions is opening a can of worms. If you can use it to do X, your opponents can use it to do Y. But it's very difficult to reason with those individuals.
idiotsonfire
They're right, but they still don't need to ban it. Nobody would willingly wear it any more than one would willingly wear metal neck collars
ExplosionFish
And why is that not true in many cases? It’s not like it started with women wanting to wear them. Look at older video clips from Iran. See what it looked like in Afghanistan during the most recent liberal era. After a few years of a ban let’s see how popular they are?
itiswhatitis420
its precisely because it ISNT true in many cases that a ban that affects ALL cases would be a terrible idea and authoritarian. then instead of being a liberating middle ground it swings back into a right-wing extreme except this time its the alt-right doing the oppressing
fireflyseasontwo
Pictures do not tell the full story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashion_in_Iran#Women's_fashion
thetinymonarch
Why do you need a ban? Why not just stop women from being forced to wear it? By banning it you are telling the woman who do want to wear it"I don't care about you, follow my rules" how is that different to mandatory hijabs?
Draquez1
while it shouldn't be banned there is a stark difference between banning a singular item of clothing compared to banning all types of clothing except one.
bbnycs
To make it impossible for men to force it on women.
thetinymonarch
And that justifies taking control away from other women. Just make it a crime to force women to wear them.
bbnycs
That would be impossible to monitor.
drakionx
Simple. Because it's about the only avenue a country can take without condemning a religion. Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely prefer condemnation.
LintillaAllitnil
drakionx
Race =/= religion. Was Mohamed Ali or Malcolm X of Middle Eastern decent?
Fuyu159753
A ban gives women who would otherwise be forced/coerced/pressured into it an excuse to not wear it. People pushing for bans don't care if a tiny fraction is doing it out of their "free will" or whatever, those people will also be fine if they just don't wear it. But no one should be forced to wear the "flag of the political islam" (which this is) against their will - and that is a very good reason to ban this political symbol altogether.
thetinymonarch
So you are happy to violent people's religious freedom for your own moral point of view? Congratulations you are just as bad as the people forcing women to wear them.
PanNonOpticon
Sorry? Is there some moral point of view where beating and burning women with hot irons is acceptable? As that has been happening to women refusing to wear hijab. And for those women it isn't easy to go to police when they are dependent of their families.
Youhavinagiraffe
Women who are coerced into wearing it aren't just going to suddenly be given free reign. If anything the opposite would happen and the response would be to restrict their freedom even further. Additionally, many muslim women would feel like they were being forced to choose between being muslim and embraced feminist values of freedom and equality. That's the dichotomy that muslim extremists present them with and the solution isn't to just agree with them on that but offer a better way
Bertfisch
In germany its banned to wear the swastika in any way soo... yeah Im cool with banning hijabs for now.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
I'm against banning it, but it's a bold assumption to say women want to wear it. Especially when you consider that most of them were indoctrinated from childhood to "want" that. Sure, women who for example became Muslim in their 20s and chose to wear it in their 30s exist, but the vast majority worldwide were told their entire lives that they ought to wear it later on.
Don't ban it, but also don't act as if it is not meant as a tool of oppression.
cousteau
If it is a tool of oppression it should be banned. We shouldn't be tolerant with intolerance. (But if you mean "under some circumstances it could be seen as a tool of oppression, but isn't inherently one per se" then it might fall in a gray area.)
cousteau
(This probably makes more sense with the burka than with the hijab, because I'm an idiot and always confuse the two.)
barbarian818
And it's a constant ratchet. Some Muslim countries have "morality police" (largely volunteers) who harass and bully women in public. No scarf? They'll bully her into wearing a hijab. Then bully hijabi women into wearing a chador. Then bully those into niqab. Eventually they end up with women in full burka who almost never leave their homes and never unescorted.
Atomic2
It is oppression. You know it. I know it. But they don't know it. Its part of their world view, its baked in. So much so, that banning it will feel to them as oppression. Sadly, for the vast majority of religious people, there is no amount of logical or rational conversation you can have that will dismantle the elaborate belief system built up in their mind. You cannot win.
MrsHowVeryDareYou
Where do we draw the line between hijab and non-religious scarf? We’re banning chemo patients from wearing scarves? What about just fashion in general? You can wear a head scarf as long as you’re NOT Muslim? It’s too fine a line.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Have...have you read the comment you're replying to? At least the first few words?
MrsHowVeryDareYou
I wasn’t disagreeing
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Oh okay. My bad then
JamShady
Tell me you've never met women who want to wear it without saying you've never met women who want to wear it!! The indoctrination you speak of goes both ways, including the application of social peer pressure on women to expose themselves for attention or validation under the guise of taking control of their own bodies etc
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Tell me you have difficulties with reading comprehension without telling me.
It's right there. In the comment you replied to. FFS
fireflyseasontwo
When I was little I could hardly wait to wear high heels, stockings, fancy dresses and make-up. Now I see all those as a form of oppression, and especially this whole idea that women particularly HAVE TO shave just about every inch of their body except the thick luxurious and socially-accepted long hair on their pretty little heads. Don't even get me started on Disney! Sooooomeday my prince will come... ARGH!
TZO2k15
Darth Vader did everything wrong… Fuck the sith, the wretched space fascists that they are!
But I also agree with your statement about the Hijab, as it's very un-sith like! ;^)
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Who again killed the emperor and thus brought balance to the force? That's right the guy who had to do a lot of evil shit to be in the position to kill Palpatine!
And thanks 😊
TZO2k15
LOL, outstanding response!
Cheers to you for taking it as the satirical comment it was meant to be, and I learned something new about that very famous Sith who was very un-Sith-like in the end! ;^)
DeeplyBroken
I remember seeing a story about a platoon of female US Navy personnel stationed in Polynesia, where women typically go topless. As the story goes, the local women couldn't stand to see the Navy women oppressed into covering their boobs, so the locals stole all their shirts and bras. And the Navy women were not comfortable going around topless. I find this story useful in illustrating how some Muslim women feel about being "liberated" from their hijabs.
DeeplyBroken
I'm not female myself, but I am from the Middle East, and have spoken to many women about how they feel about this. Many choose the hijab and aren't comfortable without it. Some eschew it, and some choose to wear it some days and not others. It's a personal choice.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Is it in Iran? Is it in Saudi Arabia? Is it in Afghanistan?
The answer is 'no', btw
DeeplyBroken
You are mostly correct. Saudi Arabia has loosened up a great deal in my lifetime. Decades ago, I saw women without hijabs on Saudi's east coast. Recently, hair has been seen deep in the interior, in Riyadh. In the 1950s, my dad got beaten with sticks (lightly) for wearing a short-sleeve shirt in Riyadh. It's getting better, but still has far to go. But the women themselves regard hijab as a personal choice, regardless of law.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
A bold claim about several million women. But even if true (doubtful), my point about indoctrination still stands.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
This is why it shouldn't be banned. Also because there are women who won't be allowed to leave their houses if they aren't able to wear it. But it's still a tool of oppression. I just don't have a good suggestion for how to stop it from being one.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
One more reason why I started by saying I'm against banning the hijab
ElbowDeepInAPoliceState
Have you considered that we all, man or woman, are in no small part the product of our socialization as children? You were also indoctrinated from childhood to want or not want certain things. Shall we also treat kippahs and turbans and facial hair the same way, because people are indoctrinated into wearing them for religious reasons?
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Not all socialization is equal
ElbowDeepInAPoliceState
Well yes, of course. After all, some of it is done by evil brown clerics to systematically devalue and oppress women, whereas other socialization is done by heroic white advertisers in order to make a lot of money... by systematically devaluing and oppressing women. But I don't see a whole lot of conversation about whether or not we need to make it illegal for women to be thin or get botox or whatever.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
I'm actually surprised that it took so long for someone to insinuate I'm a racist.
You know, I could play this bullshit game, too. I could insinuate that you're a misogynistic asshole who actually likes his women oppressed, and that's why you don't mind Muslim women being second class citizens. Brown Muslim women oppressed? No big deal for you! It's actually what they want!
But, you see, that'd be just a stupid and annoying way to announce I actually don't have a good argument.
ElbowDeepInAPoliceState
1/If you believe that women shouldn't wear a hijab because it's intrinsically oppressive, and that and desire to wear one is the result of socialization rather than mystically bestowed upon them completely without any external influence whatsoever and thus they are unable to make that decision for themselves; you must also hold the same beliefs regarding women striving to conform to the white, western beauty standard. If you don't, then your motivation for pooh-poohing the hijab comes from
Youhavinagiraffe
A thing to consider is, if a muslim woman tells you she likes wearing it, why do you get to dismiss that? Everybody is a result of how they were brought up to some degree and dismissing her because of her upbringing can come across as paternalistic or ethnocentric and give the opposite of the intended result and alienate her from the wider issue of women's freedom. The headscarf is just a symbol of the stuff that actually matters and I don't get why so much fuss is caused over just that symbol
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Did I dismiss any women's claims tho? Do I really come across as, out of all things, paternalistic in arguing against an institutionalized oppression of women via childhood indoctrination?
I think it's more likely that you, like many well-meaning people, can't see the forest for the trees. It's pretty simple, really. Don't force women to wear nor not wear [THING]. Agreed? Yes? Then your issue is with a culture and religion, not with me or what I said.
ineedausernamerightmeow
Same reason we wouldn't say "let the 18 year old who's been molested by her 2nd uncle since childhood marry him if she wants to."
Or that black children should only buy white dolls if that's what they want.
We don't know what % of hijab wearing women would have chosen not to wear it if they weren't brought up in it, and probably will never know. I can see an argument about wanting to mandate they experience not wearing it temporarily, but still also don't agree with ban.
Youhavinagiraffe
Getting married to an abuser and deciding to wear a scarf over your hair are not remotely similar. I'm fully on board with the idea that consenting to be mistreated is not a thing we should wave away but the headscarf is entirely symbolic and that symbol isn't ours (people who aren't muslim women) to define or redefine
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Only Muslim women are allowed to utter an opinion on the hijab? That what you're saying?
Youhavinagiraffe
What I'm saying is what I said. You don't have to guess, you can just read
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Seems like a yes then. If so, well, guess you'll have to live with people not caring about such a ridiculous point. That's not how discourse works, and I bet you'd be the first to laugh someone out the room if they said "only I'll people can talk about the health care system " or any such nonsense.
TwoNineSix
For me, hijabs fall into the same category as religion in general and hard drugs: shouldn't be illegal but should be socially discouraged.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
And also it has morality tied in with it - it's part of being "modest" in the cultures where it's common. It's not the same as picking a white shirt vs a yellow shirt to wear today. It's tied up with religion and culture, it will never be a completely free choice until that stops being the case.
LincLoud
Definitely a tough line to walk. I've had a similar thought. "Are they choosing to wear it because they are simply practicing the freedom to do so or are they indoctrinated and choosing to wear it because of that?" Ultimately, permitting them is still the best bet while promoting critical thinking and secular views to prevent widespread oppressive religion.
SeeShark
We don't even have to assume indoctrination--if everyone in their family will strongly disapprove of them "choosing" not to wear it, they risk destroying their social support system. That's not a real choice.
Margrave9000
That is just one among the many reasons why humanity should relegate the family as a unit of society to the ash heap of history. It is a hotbed of SA, oppression, hatred and their transmittance. Education can hardly pose a challenge.
LincLoud
Another thing that may need to be addressed; something equating to a women's shelter but for anyone who has been ostracized from their family/religious community
Xenarion
The same thing apply to a lot of things in life.
SeeShark
Sure. And we don't have to vocally defend those things either. Racism is a learned behavior that I think we should oppose. Toxic masculinity is a learned behavior that I think we should oppose. Being a victim of domestic violence is, for some people, a learned behavior that we should absolutely oppose.
smartburrito24
In the US, the majority of med school students are men and the majority of nursing school students are women. This happens because of individual choices, but the context for those choices includes patriarchal notions of work and compensation. We don’t tend to diminish the agency of women who “choose” nursing, even though that choice can often have a “love your oppressors” feel to it. Does that analogy work?
drinkthederpentine
Eh not really. In the US it's very common to find things like Women Coders, Women in STEm etc groups creating cultural change against prior tradition that resulted in bias. In Saudia Arabia for example, there is direct action by religion, government, men privately to enforce coverings and other oppression of women. Women couldn't drive in Saudia Arabia until 2018.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
I don't think so. The pressure I'm referring to is much more direct, and the consequences are way worse for those who don't obey. The kind of structural pressure you're talking about makes it more likely that a woman might become a nurse. Or a preschool teacher, or this or that. The kind of pressure I'm talking about means women can lose their family and entire social structure even their lives, if they don't do what is expected of them.
doobiedoobop
Same argument applies to makeup, bikinis, and short skirts in the west
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Does it? Muslim women in Iran and elsewhere sometimes get beaten to death by the "morality police" for not wearing a hijab. Their murderers get a reward by the government. What's the equivalent to THAT in the West?
drinkthederpentine
This 100%. Individuals must have every right to control how they dress in a free society but you can't ignore the motivation behind the cultural indoctrination. I will also add it's extremely duplicitous when you see otherwise left leaning people somehow forget about structural bias and inequality when it comes to Islam. I don't understand the double standard it makes no sense to me. Oppression of women is oppression of women
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
I think it's because in western countries, Muslims are a minority that often gets targeted by racists and the likes. Combined with tribalism, polarization, and a form of a purity contest, this leads to left-leaning people reflexively defending it all - Muslims, Islam, Middle Eastern culture. Without acknowledging that this blanket defense actually protects those who oppress women way worse than the West today does. Among other things.
Djohaal
Oppression is only oppression when it comes from white man as the perpetrator. Otherwise its cultural choice with sprinkles.
WarKittyKat
I think the harder question is - why is the hijab more or less part of indoctrination than other parts of clothing? I'm legally female and am forced by the law where I am to wear a shirt in public, regardless of what I want. But opposing forcing shirts on women is generally treated as either a cheap joke about how someone wants to see boobies, or a radical fringe issue. Is the hijab really all that different, or does it just seem that way because it's not part of our culture?
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Women sometimes get beaten to death by the "morality police" in Iran and elsewhere for not wearing a hijab. Their murderers get a reward from the government.
Are you sure you wanna maintain that claim of equivalence?
WarKittyKat
Given that those aren't the places that are discussing banning the hijab, yes. What does the threat of being beaten to death in Iran have to do with whether or not a woman in france or the usa is freely choosing to wear it or not? Practically every cultural standard has been abused by people somewhere at some time.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
You were equating women having to wear a shirt with women having to wear a hijab. I pointed out that the consequences for both vary a lot.
These kinds of equations diminish the very real suffering of women under Islam. It's shameful how many of my fellow lefties can't admit nor condemn that, just because they don't wanna seem racist.
WarKittyKat
I mean, I've literally had (even non-religious) people in the USA tell me that I deserved to be raped because I wasn't wearing a modest enough shirt. But that aside, we're saying that Islam isn't a monolith. It's not "diminishing the suffering of women under Islam" to say we can't make assumptions about my hijabi neighbor's reasons for wearing her scarf based on the laws in Iran. And it's not like banning the hijab here would do a damn thing to help women in Iran anyway.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
I don't know where you live, but where I live, forcing women to wear shirts when men don't have to *is* seen as unequal treatment. In the 90s there were people fighting to get the law changed, and they succeeded. Now it's equal. I'm not personally interested in going topless, but I'd think it was fucked up for it to be illegal. It should be my choice. I still think it's fucked up that if women actually choose to go topless here, they will be treated as a sex object. That's a cultural issue /1
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
that still has to change, because IMO women *should* be able to do it on hot days if it's more comfortable, just like men do, without being harassed or worried that they'll be assaulted. Meanwhile, at least no one could say shit to me when I breastfed in public, which is a very nice side effect of female toplessness being legal. Like really, if it should be legal for anyone, it should be breastfeeding women. They're the only ones with an actual need for it. /2
TheShogunOfSarcasm
Are Catholic School outfits tools of oppression? Nun's habits?
ComradeBinch
Exactly. Im so tired of the singling out of islam like its 2001 again. Most religions utilize some version of a head scarf or covering anyway so unless we're talking about radical versions of religions, like even Christianity and Judaism have, then everybody just relax
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
OP made a post about the hijab. People here talk about the hijab. What's your issue again?
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
I don't see how school uniforms could be considered oppression, since they apply to all the kids. Who is the oppressed group? I do disagree, though, with indoctrinating kids into religion.
As to the nun's habit, if they chose to be a nun, they chose everything that came with it. If they didn't choose to be a nun, then someone has oppressed them, yes.
TheShogunOfSarcasm
Point is, in either case, it's a requirement for that religion. There are a ton of arbitrary rules regarding many religions, but I feel it's disingenuous to single out Islam for that.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
Personally I want all the bigoted crap from all religions gone. It should frankly be illegal to propagate it. I don't know why religions get a free pass. For example, there are no countries on earth that tell the Catholic church that only allowing men to be priests is discrimination and that it's illegal. Even in countries where discrimination against women actually is illegal, religions are still allowed to do it. It's bullshit.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
The hijab as an Islamic piece of clothing was chosen by OP as the topic here. Obviously people talk about that on this post rather than catholic clothes or hinduist or whatever
TheShogunOfSarcasm
But he is openly saying that the hijab is an instrument of oppression, regardless of what the people wearing it think. Granted it is a posy about hijabs, but makes it sound like it's specific to Islam.
Margrave9000
Don't second guess adult womxn. They don't need you and your awful patriarchal benevolence.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Oh fuck off
rshini
you're missing there are women who do convert to Islam and are perfectly fine with wearing one - and no, not all of them who do are marrying muslim men.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
I've actually gave that exact example in the comment you replied to
maststick
Perfectly fine to wear one and actively wanting to are two different things
thetinymonarch
Don't assume that woman don't want to wear it. You don't get to make that call and neither do I.
LustrousShadow
You *are* making that call, though.
I also oppose a ban, but your rug-sweeping of abuse is just as bad. You're pretending that the choice is consistently made in a vacuum by conflating a comment that highlights that dynamic as an exception that needs to be called out and worked on with a ban.
thetinymonarch
I'm not rug sweeping. I'm calling out hypocrisy. Telling woman that they are too indoctrinated to make a choice is stupid as hell
LustrousShadow
You're either rug-sweeping, have your head too far up your ass to have understood the first comment in this chain you replied to, or are completely incapable of articulating your position. I'll let you decide which.
If you're *not* rug-sweeping, then you should be able to appreciate nuance well enough to not conflate someone saying that "not all forms of coercion are legislative" with a ban. You should be able to recognize that calling out social and system issues is not downplaying the (1/2)
LustrousShadow
(2/2) agency of women en masse. We can recognize how several racial policies are still hurting PoC today without disparaging PoC-- and indeed, it is important to do so.
IGotMyDreamJobProgrammingGames
There's no reason to "want" to wear it other than indoctrination and brainwashing to make them afraid of punishment
thetinymonarch
Why would you wear a hoodie over a pull over? Because you like the way it looks. Same here
Appollon
If me not wearing a hoodie over a pullover meant that men could SA me and then blame me for their inability to control themselves, then I would feel very differently about that look. It's not about what a hijab looks like, some look really beautiful. It is about what it represents.
thetinymonarch
How are we going to change what it means when you want it banned. Your just a hypocrite
DeathLemons
That's fucking stupid and YOU know it
thetinymonarch
No it's not. Look at western fashion there are a lot of head covers similar to the hijab. Literally part of the common Christian wedding service is too wear a Vail which is similar to a hijab
IGotMyDreamJobProgrammingGames
And you like the way it looks, because you grew up in a society where it was required and now feels it right.
thetinymonarch
No I didn't.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Well, you just did. You wrote "if they want it, let them" and I agreed.
You really think it's just a wild guess to say that most Muslim women who wear it were told their entire childhood that they ought to want it? Or is it just an assumption to say that childhood indoctrination might cause people to think they want something that they maybe wouldn't want had they not been indoctrinated?
thetinymonarch
"IF they want it" very big detail.
Are you really saying that you know better than these women? "Oh you don't want to wear this, your just indoctrinated" sounds like the same shit people say about gay and trans people.
Let people wear what they want.
RoutemasterFlash
Comparing religious beliefs to being gay is pretty ridiculous. People can and do change their religious beliefs all the time, or go from being religious to a non-believer or vice-versa. Nobody can just decide to have a different sexual orientation.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Again, I do. And I want the laws to reflect that. Don't mandate or ban any clothes. Is that now clear enough for you?
Why do you feel the need to put words in my mouth instead of engaging with the point I actually made? Are you too insecure about your position to do that?
thetinymonarch
You keep changing the point to some savory complex point. You are saying these words darling I'm just removing your holier than though bs