GlobalImageServiceCat
53424
2092
23
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/beBsOflNAos
Apr 15, 2024 10:50 AM
GlobalImageServiceCat
53424
2092
23
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/beBsOflNAos
BobHopeLives
Wow, my grandfather explained this to me thirty years ago. So true.
notreallyamorningperson
The Europeans and English didn’t go home on ships and debrief for three weeks, they went home that day on a train or in a truck. My grandfather never spoke about the war, the trauma was too great, too shocking. He kept it inside. We never truly knew or understood what horrors were plaguing him, though we knew they were.
s0cratez
Excellent song about PTSD before PTSD was taken seriously. https://youtu.be/KmslaEudR3M?si=6aqY384-N4QBFZ7g
diezl97
Good one. My favorite PTSD song is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkfO8c8MlKU
metricman67
I always thought that if there’s a boot camp in order to become a soldier with drill instructors and combat games, should be a flip-flop camp in order to become a civilian with medical assistance and leisure activities! It turns out I was right in my mind as the video points out!
varesya
The military today does do a better job of transitioning people back to civilian life, but honestly we could do a lot more. Hell, we could do a lot more for veterans, especially combat veterans, period.
tinyfootprints
Also, WWII vets were by and large treated as heroes. Vietnam vets were generally reviled. Not much of a welcome after putting your life on the line for, umm... the French occupation and enslavement of Vietnam. And then the French gave up and left, leaving US soldiers fighting for no reason whatsoever. Oh, wait, it was so Nixon would not be the first US President to lose a war. He wouldn't have been, anyway. Remember, Vietnam wasn't a war, it was a "police action."
AnxiaTeaDD
My spouses grandfather was a POW during Vietnam. He was flying for the Navy, his plane gets shot down in north Vietnam, he is MIA. After so long the Military pretty much gave him up for dead, his family(his grandma and mom) gave him up for dead after so many years. They even had a memorial service for him. His grandfather was actually a POW for 6 years and the military was able to get him back home after the war ended but he was not the same and it made his relationship with his daughter…
AnxiaTeaDD
my MIL, kinda estranged. I don’t know exactly what happened, just that he was physically and psychologically tortured for all those years. I can’t even imagine. His name is Gary Lynn Thornton if anyone is interested in knowing more. It’s definitely a crazy story.
Fanner50
WWII vets coming back via boat also gave them time to decompress.
We still have guys in a war zone one day and back in states within 48 hours.
theadamabrams
"Also"? That's exactly the specific point made in the video clip. (It is true, though.)
Fanner50
His focus was more on interaction with comrades than on the value of the down time. My hometown is near a major US military base. It has become a cliche that the marines come home, buy a car or motorcycle and quickly total the vehicle at high speed.
They were removed from a high energy situation and dropped into a boring world.
Rhinta
I'm with @theadamsabrams here. It was both, they had time with the same men they fought with onboard the boats to decompress and share their experiences. The Vietnam vets flew back with soldiers but they were essentially strangers.
That is explicitly covered in the video.
NOINITIATIVE
both of my grandfathers came back from ww2 with what we now know was ptsd, and coped with alcohol for a long time
NOINITIATIVE
I don't think one boat ride changed anything for them
nsaspyingonuranus
My old man served in the USMC Fighting 4th (survived 4 beach landing in WW2) ... said this exact same thing, 3 weeks aboard ship to get back to HI, fart around for 5 weeks, another 2 weeks shipboard to get to San Diego. Kids in Nam were on a plane ... 72 hours out of combat and -bam- back in niceville USA. WTF!?!
TheStealthHippopotamus
I have been saying the same thing since Desert Storm. How the hell are troops suppose to go from the field of war to the back yard BBQ in under 24hr?? It would mess anyone up. Fear the person who can do it.
[deleted]
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TheStealthHippopotamus
Yes. The man says it better than I ever will! 3-4 weeks surrounded by people who were there and understand what you went though. 3-4 weeks decompressing and shifting gear into civilian mode.
joshuasplinth
My gramps was in the 101st airborne as a Huey pilot. In his later years he was a counsellor, and said he was able to connect to them as clients in a way that just wasn’t possible for civies.
KawaiiInari
So I watched Rambo for the first time ever yesterday, and it was hard for me to finish. I just felt so bad for him and for all Nam vets. My uncle was in Nam and almost died; suffered from PTSD for years.
hauntednursery
I’ll never forget a 6th grade substitute teacher who was a Vietnam vet & POW. He was fairly candid about it, I think because he knew he was dying from agent orange poisoning. I don’t remember specifics of what he said, but I remember his hands. All of his fingernails had been ripped out, & when that happens they never grow back. I think listening to him is what radicalized me.
ionlyregisteredtosavelinks
Imperialists gonna empire.
TheResolver
He's talking the difference here, but one thing that was as true then as it is now, the government that sent these young people to fight and possibly die, did not give a shit about them after their use had expired. Pre-deploy stuff, oh yeah! medical, briefings, dental, training, practice, physical training you are on the spot and under the microscope. After the deployment and with all the mental baggage, see you around chump, and don't come asking for help either... piss off...
AdamH4
Interesting!!!!!! Hadn’t thought about that………….
HerrHat
The accidental debriefing is one thing, changing training to de-humanizing the enemy is another. That wreaks havoc among veterans aswell. And i think it's getting worse all the time. There's little justification fir americ's wars so soldiers need to be trained to kill without question.
cyounghmfce
For all the (R) romanticizing war and the need push a pro war agenda this is the real face of war. Broken people doing the bidding of another group of people who would buckle under the pressure of checks notes.... enlisting .
Bonesy84
I don’t want to diminish the pain these guys experienced and the horrors of war, but I’m imagining someone on the other side of the war watching this “oh they came and fucked up our country, aw he feels really bad about it”
Will0099
Thank you for your service sir!
My dad is a Vietnam vet. He never really talked about it with us as kids and not even adults. He was a kid at 19 when he went there. I couldn’t imagine what he went through. What he had to do and what he saw.
He had veterans associations or clubs that he went to alot when we were younger which I think helped him tremendously now that I think about it.
Now a lot of those vets are in their 70’s.
Thesaya
You know the person posting this isn't the person in the video, right?
Will0099
Duh….i didn’t know that. I can still say thank you dumbass
Thesaya
Sure, but kind of pointless. Why not go to the source and make that comment there instead?
SergeyPrkl
One of the fast paced modern world problems. A BIG problem. ANd it dowsn't just apply to war stuff, but to all troubles of life. You have to get a breather now and then and let it out in some controlled manner.
cjandstuff
For work I one time I interviewed a Vietnam vet for a video we were shooting. This man was damn proud of his medals, his achievements, and the soldiers he trained when he was a sergeant. We asked him about his time in Vietnam, and this retired Army sergeant instantly broke down and started to cry. "I don't like to talk about Vietnam."
maxximii
My friend's dad was SF with a career that started in Vietnam and continued up until around 2010. He was proud of his service, not because of the missions and things he did during tours, but because of what he did after he stopped going on combat missions. He trained 1000s of troops on ways to fight, survive, and come back from 1995 to 2010. And he was named several times by POWs/etc as being the reason they could make it back.
maxximii
"survive, and come back from 1995 to 2010." Ha, I just realized I made it sound like he was teaching them time travel.
irespectfullycourtyermam
Well this is a significant difference - one of many, including Vietnam being a completely fucked up proxy war where enlisted men were constantly lied to and used as grist for the mill of the for profit war machine.
Daevram1123
What kills me is how proud most of these old fucks seem to be about having been used as a pawn in an unjust war that we lost.
maxximii
I don't think your comment is completely accurate. It's more nuanced than that. Almost everyone I know is a veteran, most have never been proud of it and no one would every know under normal circumstances. Except for a few that are "loud and proud" of their service. You wanna know the difference? It's combat. The ones that brag and show off are the ones that did nothing while they served. Either served during peace or were back of the pack support (not ground or close air). Mostly USN and USAF.
maxximii
The quiet, unassuming ones are those that were feet on the ground troops. USMC, army, etc. Also, the combat vets are usually super liberal now, and the ones that did nothing are conservative. A weird anecdote I have.
Slashenaar
Yea, he's totally wrong about the combat experience being the same. There's piles of statements about how this war was different, how it's not about gaining ground against an evil empire it's about stacking bodies against poor farmers fed up. We had no clear missions or purpose or mandate and the troops felt it and the people felt it. Shit that's so plain it made it into Band of Brothers intro/ interview
xj4low
Why my grandfather was drafted back in WWII, getting his uniform was the first new set of clothes he has ever worn and the training bases also had running water and electricity which he has never had.
decarnatedame
My father was spat at at the airport when he returned from Vietnam. It's no wonder he refused to talk about his experiences in Vietnam until many years later.
maxximii
My dad's never spoken of it. Hid his uniform in a box in his parents' basement day he got back. It didn't see the light of day until 40 years later, after both had passed. He showed it to me, then it went back in a box and went to my aunt's house. Closest he comes to talk about it, is jokes about drunk and drugs and when he was ambushed, everyone died including civs and he Forrest Gumped his way out of it, never seeing an enemy. Only 20 guys returned from his graduating class (150 guys).
decarnatedame
Dad started to open up about his experiences after he felt like he almost died from heart blockage before a cardiac bypass surgery. Maybe he felt like it was his last chance to tell us about his experiences. I know a friend died in his arms. I know because he was small they used to try to send him down into VC tunnels. (continued)
decarnatedame
I know the pen he wore in his shirt collar saved a fellow soldier's life when a combat medic used it to perform a trach after the enemy bombed their camp with a mortar made from an old ration tin. A good friend of his was on one of the ships that responded to the wreck of the U.S.S. Liberty after the Israelis bombed it in 1967 and he was forbidden to talk about his trauma because of national security secrecy. Never got help with his PTSD. Couldn't even talk about what he saw in group therapy.
azgrak
The major difference for soldiers was their time in combat. For WWII it was 40 days in 4yrs. For Vietnam it was 240 days in one year.
Lawow74
Let's not forget age. The average age of a soldier in WWII was 26. In Vietnam it was 19.
ChorizoPig
Not true. 26 vs 22.
hollowboy
The major difference for [US] soldiers...
QuantumBanker
Yeah, that's what the post is about
Corrodias
Whew, good thing we never do that any more! Right, guys? ... Uh oh.
jaysjunkymail11
What was the impetus for the Vietnam War? Why the f would we want to be there geographically? No oil or resources I'm aware of to profit from. I saw a comment about Nixon and Kissinger, but what was the justification?
Jgold101
I believe there was some off shore oil rigs but I can't remember where I read that. The official reason was containing the communist revolution to north Vietnam.
mm1434
Best description I’ve heard is that america mistook an anti-colonial rebellion for the spread of communism.
thefinpope
PrecogFrogOnALog
Something something spread of communism
kranchan
France was crying about their imperial holdings and also communism.
ChiLLeCheeze
The slaves there got it in their head they deserve more freedom than France was willing to give.
takedown751
Another big difference was the WWII vets pulled into cheering harbors, and the Vietnam Vets were greeted by stinking and spitting hordes of dirty scumbag protesters
irespectfullycourtyermam
Nixon and Kissenger et al should have been executed and their positions in history seen through a lens of shit, blood, and shame.
SlightChungus
Wanna know why people celebrated Kissinger's death go visit or learn about history in Cambodia and Laos that's why. Fuck Nixon and Kissinger evil people that lived way to fucking long.
proxy5000
CoachMcgurl
I used to wonder why the Venture Bros Kissinger Expy was a villain or at least helped villains. Now I know.
Redbulloth
I feel like you're missing a few others off the list, like Kennedy and LBJ
delecti
For sure it's a very long list, but Kissinger sits solidly at the top.
Lampmonster
There's no better proof that this is an unjust world that Kissenger lived as long as he did in wealth and comfort. He was a fucking monster, no punishment was too harsh for the things he was behind. The world is a far worse place for him having been in it.
PlanckEraWasMyBestEra
Yep, any time I want to believe karma exists I think of things like this and realize that, unfortunately, it doesn't.
Lampmonster
Agreed, but it's worth noting that the concept of Karma is that it will actually come around in one's next life. Now I don't believe in that obviously, but it makes sense to me that this is why the concept is more accepted, nobody with any sense would believe it happens in one life. To many examples otherwise.
RemtonDulyak
People say "god exists and proof is in everything he gives us", to which I reply "your god apparently found Kissinger and Stalin and Hitler and Putin, among others, to be a gift to humanity, go figure..."
jayman0123
Also it didn't help that when they came back not only were they denied benefits, but many times they were actively targeted by protesters of the war. Imagine going in at 18, watching your friends die, and not only becoming psychologically wounded but potentially physically wounded as well with something that you can never recover from, and you come back with no benefits, no support, and people call you a baby murderer, throw stuff at you, and talk behind your back about you. And even some /1
jayman0123
Other vets look down on you. Messed up shit.
landbaronness42
The average WW II was 27. The average Vietnam soldier was 19. Nnnnn nineteen. https://youtu.be/YtWEiWDYxL0?si=EKnzLUamZHQQYl1Z
KWJester49
Also that you were generally drafted against your will and didn't even want to go
DaPastry
U.S troops were drafted for WWII as well. About 1/3 of those enlisted in Vietnam were drafted, the rest were volunteers.
KWJester49
Thought it was the reverse, but you're right. Tried to find numbers on how many were already members prior to the start vs voluntarily joined during but couldn't find that. The point i was making though is all vietnam vets were treated like shit even though a large part didn't want to go. Also, I do know that some people worried about getting drafted to fight volunteered to join if it meant they could choose where they went, bit can't find numbers for that either
corprophage
Yea but the draft WW2 was essentially treated as a universally good and right thing so that skewed things
demosteness
Fuck war. Just stop war fuckers. Enough. Stop. Talk.
FeloniousMonk13
It bothers me a bit when I see images of people protesting the returning soldiers in the Vietnam era, I'm as anti-war as anyone, but I felt that ire should have been directed squarely at the government, not the guys who got drafted and had no choice in the matter.
Redbulloth
I feel like it was the easy and convenient target. They won't fight back, they're easy to get to, and afterwards the protesters could high five that they were making a difference.
varesya
There's certainly a lot of variation between groups and people too. I've known and run into enough people of varying thoughts on this and other topics to know that those assholes do/did exist. And yeah, it's a classic move to discredit protests by pointing to the tankies and other extreme whackos, not to mention the right-wing plants that are there to deliberately cause trouble, but that doesn't mean that it never happened.
LostCaterpillar
Yah. How dare those hippies tell the brave veterans... checks sign... Bring all the GI's Home Now. Could anyone be more hateful to soldiers than to want them all returned safely home?!?
Seriously though, the protesters, many of whom were veterans themselves, protested where troops were returning because that's where the cameras were. They didn't harass or spit on the soldiers, they recruited them to the antiwar movement.
FlatPlutoSociety
Yeah, the whole "spitting on the troops" thing was absolutely bullshit pro-war propaganda, and it was really effective.
GerbilHereReportingLiveFromRichardGeresAss
We didn't know any better back then. Hell we didn't know any better until after 9/11 either.
DynamoJoeHoHo
WWII and Vietnam and Korea were apples and oranges. WWII was an enemy that was engaged on the battlefield with a clear Win/Lose goal. Ergo, a heroes welcome. Vietnam and Korea were ideological conflicts with proxy nations (until the Chinese showed up in Korea) that were muddled at best. The men and women who served in those conflicts were given the short end of the stick by both the government and the citizenry. The Korean conflict participants were ignored; the Vietnam ones vilified.
LostCaterpillar
The only people vilifying the Vietnam vets were the pro-war assholes who sent them there. Many of the antiwar protesters were veterans themselves, fighting to end the war and get the government to care for their fellow soldiers once they came home.
DynamoJoeHoHo
I’m sorry, but that’s simply not true. The stories are legion of veterans returning home and being treated poorly.
LostCaterpillar
If the reports are legion you should have lots of sources though. You might want to check them against this wikipedia page though. You wouldn't want to accidentally spread misinformation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_spat-on_Vietnam_veteran
varesya
You're conflating vilification and dislike with being literally spat on. And while the later is likely apocryphal/mythical, that doesn't mean that the anti-war left was pro-soldier at all, and most of the rhetoric was decidedly negative and vitriolic. The whole "we love the troops" bit was a much later shift in direct response to this that didn't really come around until the 90s.
LostCaterpillar
Your history is exactly backwards. The antiwar movement was always pro soldier, pro veteran. It was only later, as a propaganda technique, that the idea of antiwar protesters attacking veterans was invented.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but 1960s were a few years before the 90s.
Predicto
That’s how urban mythology works. Lots of stories about something someone heard. No actual evidence that it really happened.
DynamoJoeHoHo
I have heard first hand accounts from Vets. Maybe you should be a little more understanding.
Predicto
You have heard firsthand accounts from vets that is actually happened to? Not “someone they knew?” Not arguments with a family member that grew in the telling? If so, you are the first person I have ever met who can say that. I was alive for the Vietnam War, and I know a lot of vets and none say that.
whosbestmom
WWII vets welcomed home as heroes (unless they were Black) Viet Nam vets came home to taunts of Baby Killers . . .
whosbestmom
I actually lived through that time and my brother was a Viet Nam vet--I understand that history changes, but I guarantee that Viet Nam vets were not treated well as a whole by Americans, Government, Hippies, etc.--Only other vets (including WWII) vets treated them well--Not a Myth per se . . .
LostCaterpillar
Rambo was a movie, not a real event. Vietnam vets came back to protesters, many of whom were fellow vets, supporting them against the government that had abused them.
Just like today it's always the hippies demanding our soldiers be brought safely home and more funding for the VA. Strangely the pro-war people never seem similarly interested in helping veterans.
whosbestmom
I lived through it--maybe not Rambo, but certainly not welcome in a lot of instances . . . I agree that most hippies just wanted them home . . .
Rhinta
It's not just the hippies. Ever heard of Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW)? https://www.ivaw.org/
FiftyShadesOfMascarpone
That's 99% myth peddled by the right-wing media and the Nixon administration to try and discredit the anti-Vietnam war movement (which included many veterans) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spitting_Image
whosbestmom
I was there, some of them were treated badly on arriving home . . . there are 1st hand accounts by Viet Nam vets of what happened when they got home . . .
BrockEffingSamson
They did not
whosbestmom
I was there--some of them were treated badly on arriving home
BrockEffingSamson
"Treated badly" wasn't your claim.
whosbestmom
I want to apologize to you--I learned stuff today that I had not known before, i.e. Some of the Viet Nam stuff has been blown out of proportion . . . my family likes to debate stuff and be "right" I'm trying to be better . . .
BrockEffingSamson
Hey bud...A+ response. I wish everyone could admit fault and grow. I'm not always perfect, either, and I'll try to remember good examples like you.
alexi1012
It's a damn shame how our Vietnam vets were treated when they returned from the war. It makes me sick to think that they came back to being spit on and yelled at, rather than a hero's welcome.
JustaguyfromNH
Happened to my father (spit on, jeered), Gulfport Mississippi 1970
DelendusSum
This is another huge difference. By and large WW2 vets were treated as heroes by the public when they got home, while Vietnam vets often were not. Add that in to everything he talks about in the clip and the fact that a lot of them were already finding it hard to feel that they were on the right side, and it’s no wonder so many of them had mental health issues.
VitaminJay
A mandatory draft because there was rumors of oil in French Indochina,
a end-run of calling it a 'police action's to avoid a Congressional vote to go to war,
Fresh off the backs of WW2 and Korea,
Westmoreland treating it likena football game of 'if more of them die than ours die, thats a win for us'!'
...is why Vietnam was an absolute shitshow.
Tootsie1
Don't forget Kissinger's contributions. He's the real war criminal of Vietnam.
meskarune
Same thing happened to iraq war vets but even worse because they didn't get college tuition and most lost their jobs after returning.
ChePollino
I've seen a few documentaries about US heroes in Vietnam. Many deserved much more than just getting spit on. I am sorry for majority that got fucked over by US politicians and corporations.
eathotdog
They weren't heros
NothingPrince
Read Rambo
tzahtman
I'm guessing you're referring to "First Blood", the book where John Rambo originated.
NothingPrince
Yes. After being a pow he comes back spat at and goes insanely
Salpinus
Heroes?
Predicto
Almost all of that is conservative military mythology. It didn’t actually happen. It is true that they didn’t receive the hero’s welcome that the WWII vets got, but they didn’t get spit on either.
VinnieJonesDiary
In what way were they heroes???
LostCaterpillar
@GozerTheGozerian has covered the general point but I do want to bring up that the spitting thing was specifically an invention of Rambo, just as much fiction as the rest of the movies.
Clockworkdancerobot
GozerTheGozerian
Vietnam vets being treated horribly when returning was actually (and feel free to look it up) propaganda by the Nixon and later the Reagan administrations to devalue the "hippie", civil rights, and anti-war protest movements. In fact, most Vietnam vets sided with those very movements themselves during the 60s and 70s, hence the propagandist actions taken by Nixon at the time. Reagan and Hollywood simply made it worse come the 80s and it the falsehood became taken as unchallenged truth.
drivergrrl
Wrong. I knew a vet who was as traumatized by his spit upon homecoming as he was by what he saw.
sirava
You knew who person you told you that happened to them. And maybe it did happen a few times but it was nearly as widespread as we were told. Mostly the returning vets were mistreated by not getting medical, financial, and mental health support.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_spat-on_Vietnam_veteran
carlsagansghost
Yes. And that’s worse. You realize that, right?
sirava
Yes, of course. But the reason why they push the narrative that hippies spit on vets is to distract from the systemic failure to support them. Makes us blame each other instead of our leaders. (Also, sorry for my word salad in the previous comment)
proxy5000
ilovetraveler
Yeah, regardless of how people felt about the war, the troops weren't the enemies. They were also victims with severe psychological and physical trauma.
Tootsie1
The same actually applies to all veterans, including ww2. My gf had severe ptsd, there wasn't any such diagnosis at the time. There were times he drink until he blacked out because the ptsd was that bad, or because the phantom pain from the leg he lost was unbearable.
EMHPicardo
secularink
<3
Efreeti
Eugene! Chocolat. Pour vous.
softsuit
.
flipj
Finishing a re-watch of it today and that particular episode is always the toughest for me, together with the one where Easy liberates the camp. Just mentally oppresive.
Jordan7831
What show is this one from?
RichardFenn
Band of Brothers, if you haven't seen it, do.
Jordan7831
Thank you. I don’t remember this scene. Was it the battle of the bulge episode l?
flipj
Yep. That's the one.
erwinmahatma
Then the following scene where Speirs took over command, ran straight through the Germans then ran back was my favorite one in the whole series.
flipj
"We need to like up with I company" "Anything else needs doing?"
Spiers is legit superhero in that scene.
RobJenkins
Second world war was somewhat of an anomaly, total surrender kinda spoiled expectations for how war usually ends
joshuasplinth
See: Coldwar, amirite? I was ten when the Berlin Wall came down, and i remember just every step of the way that Russia never seemed like not-a-bad-guy fighting this secret war.
OverpricedCrayon
WW2 also had more defined lines between the good guys and bad guys. Nazis and fascists were very clearly bad. Its an easier war for everyone to understand.
Vietnam was more like "we gotta stop this country from being communist even though they came to use for aid decades earlier but we ignored them. But they've also been occupied by various countries throughout its history and now they're trying to control their own destiny and half the country is our ally and half the country isn't"
Itsonporpoise
That’s American culture. Watch any movie made in the US. The hero wins completely, end of story. Realistic? No, but it is a consistent theme that blinds us to second and third order effects.
NotSomoneElse68
It was kind of an anomaly in that it actually had to be fought.
filiuspelei
But this was also how the war was fought: we send troops over to Germany with the mindset that they would stay there till it was over. Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan was this constant rotation.
lemmerustlethosejimmies
They sort of had to be. Vietnam was a little different because if we invaded north, yay the Chinese and maybe Soviets really join in.
filiuspelei
We should have built a wall I guess
Targe0
They both had rotation, what differentiated them was that WW2 there was forward progress. Viet and Afgh both got into a stalemate of whack a mole. They could easily beat their enemy, but they couldn't find them to beat them so instead of 1 massive batter where hundreds would die, but lots of progress would be made: they'd have hundreds of smaller battles where 1 or 2 would be killed and made very little progress.
LjubljanaJeNajlepseMestoNaSvetu
You are describimng 1st half of ww2 from the geržans perspective
lljkstonefish
Sounds to me like the difference between declaring war on a nation and declaring war on an idea.
lemmerustlethosejimmies
Sort of the nature of modern counterterrorism/counterinsurgency. Fighting a nationstate is a fairly focused objective. Hard, but you know where they are, who the leadership is, and where the industry fueling their war effort is. So while the fighting will be brutal, you know where you're going and what you're doing and can marshal strategy and forces to do that. CI/CT, you have to kill an ideology and that's so much harder, because if you win a battle, you didn't really progress the war aims.
filiuspelei
Yeah... It sounds like we shouldnt fight wars like that then
lemmerustlethosejimmies
Well easy to say that, particularly as Americans as we blundered into the ones we were involved with, but many nations don't get a choice in fighting an insurgency, like Iraq, Afghanistan, a good chunk of Africa, Myanmar, various South American countries. So they get the same problem, with an even weaker military, and the insurgents are within their borders. Depending on the myriad ways the 2024 election plays out, the US could get to experience various forms of true insurrection or insurgency
evolution4407
On a related note: Bruce Springsteen didn't intend "Born in the USA" to be a patriotic song.
Northwindlowlander
(see also: Thunder Road, thought of as a big bombastic american dream thing when it's actually about 2 doomed kids taking a last desperate chance to try and make at least something of their nothing lives and trying to fool themselves that they're living the dream. And then we learn in The Promise that it doesn't work out. Thunder Road, take it all and throw it away.
Targe0
It's a condemnation song of the US action. It just has a catchy chorus and that's the only part people known. Like most songs, people doing hear the lyrics to them, at best they'll hear the catchy part which everyone known and be oblivious to the rest.
FlatPlutoSociety
You also see a lot of "Fortunate Son" played in a pro-military, jingoistic context. Well, the first two lines of the song, anyway.
VincitQuiSeVincit
On an unrelated note: George Washington's teeth weren't wooden; they were made from ivory, animal and human teeth.
tylerlarson
On an unrelated note: whales aren't actually fish; they're mammals, descendants of creatures that evolved to live on land.
Plaird
On an unrelated note: my calfs kinda hurt and I'm not sure if it's a vitamin thing or from driving too much
ukalliq
On a n unrelated note, I can't find my socks that match my blue ankle boots.
Tumescentpie
Right wingers aren't good at media consumption. They always take the wrong message. My favorite example is the fascists who vote republican and their love of star trek
ukalliq
See also: American Woman
Beezlebubble
I love the song, not because it's "go America" but because it's "damn...America, huh" hear the words and it just makes me feel, a hollowness I can appreciate coming from a song. It's so well done
hodaddelvecchio
Patriotic in what sense? Jingoistic? No. But it is patriotic in that it speaks truth. All the best patriots speak truth to power.
drezrale
There are people who think it's a massive patriotic song, and will constantly play it as a sign of American pride.
Those people tend to also wear red hats that say "make America great again"
hodaddelvecchio
Yeah, and they also think he's just a nice Jewish kid.
BehGehBeeeehh
They also dance unironically to Rage Against the Machine, and you couldn't cut through the density of that irony with a fucking lightsaber.
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
Who thought it was. There's not one line in the song that is like "yay the us is a great place".
ReverseSyzygy
The right plays it ALL THE TIME. All they hear is the :
"BORRRRRN, in the USA-A-A. (wagn da do fittle ita) US-A -A NOW"
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
I meant people not animals
Heisanevilgenius
I don't always process song lyrics. Sometimes I have no idea what a song is about until I really listen or look up the lyrics. I didn't know what this song was about until a few years ago.
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
Pretty hard to not hear what's said in that song
Heisanevilgenius
I've never actively listened to it. It's only been on in the background in movies and stuff.
Morganelefay
See MAGAts also liking For America and Fortunate Son.
malachilenomade
A SHITTON of people do. I grew up when that song was released and even then, people thought it was patriotic.
DwayneTheCrackJohnson
"Who thought it was?"
Buddy: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/springsteen-born-in-the-usa-trump-b1826164.html
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
I meant people not animals
DwayneTheCrackJohnson
Dehumanization, one of the basic propaganda tools of fascists.
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
I'll dehumanize fascists all I want thank you very much because fascists aren't human beings.
Hashbrown123
Same ones that think Fortunate Son is patriotic.
FuckTammy
Psssh. They don’t read that book they’re always going on about, you think they’re gonna read lyrics? I like your optimism, but I don’t share it.
taez555
Paul Ryan's favorite band is Rage Against the Machine. Take a moment with that.
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
Up until they went woke politically recently.
FallingStar7669
I think people only ever listened to the chorus and mentally blocked out every line from the verses...
candle340
Conservatives. Conservatives often VASTLY misunderstand art and media because they don't engage with it beyond the surface level. "Born in the USA" sounds like a Pro-America anthem at first blush, and they don't care to look beyond that. But once you actually listen... Once you actually pay attention to what the Boss is singing about, it become patently obvious it's an anti-war song - and anti-Vietnam War in particular.
See also: the "anti-woke" backlash to Star Trek/Wars, Marvel, etc.
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
I meant people not animals
GerbilHereReportingLiveFromRichardGeresAss
MAGAs do. A testament to how dumb they are.
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
I meant people not animals
Problemwoodchuck
They only hear what they want to hear
ISayShenanigans
Just like their version of Christianity. They only pick and choose what they want to follow like if it was an open buffet.
Targe0
All they hear is the "Born in the USA" with a good tune to it. That's the whole song to them. They don't hear the rest.
OutOfTheHat
to be fair, it wasn't until recently that I read the lyrics. I could never understand his drawling voice. Same with Dylan. Hailed as one of the best lyricists but his music is grating to me, with one or two exeptions.
Targe0
Most people don't actually listen to lyrics anyway. They listen to them without really taking in what is being said a lot.
OutOfTheHat
I try. I mean, I really do... but it's hard when you add all the music and effects and accents and affectations of the singer. I like rap, but it wasn't until I saw Hamilton that I started to understand rapped songs, or look for the lyrics online to understand them, meanwhile my cousins seem to soak every word of every lyric. It's just sad.